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Xbox passed on deal to make Marvel games to focus on their own IP - Head of Marvel Games

nikolino840

Member
We are talking contracts, not license. Sony probably has a deal with Marvel where they can be the only ones to make Spider-Man AAA games. And now Wolverine (and whatever else they are cooking up).


You guys keep repeating this wrong information.
So moneyhatting... Disney/Marvel could earn money from both and could be a win-win...they aren't losing potential Money ?
 

Lognor

Banned
Wolverine will sell gang busters if they keep it mature themed.



No they just have to be SMART and have an eye for compelling games.

Avengers focusing on Kamala Kahn was a huge mistake. GOTG while good was a game noone asked for. It's a good popcorm flick but noone cared about these characters. Plus these games with multiple characters are really tough to do. Should have just focused on one central character.

MS could have picked Wolverine, Blade, Dr Strange, etc... basically any character that could make a great action game.

MS sorely needs good action adventure games that don't involve shooting.

This was a huge missed opportunity.
I don't think it was a huge missed opportunity. Again, ms would have to pay Marvel to use these characters and the sales threshold for these titles would be much higher.

Gotg was a huge blockbuster at the box office yet the game bombed. No one asked for it? Everyone loved the movie. There is a ride coming to Disney. Everyone loves the ip. Yet the game bombed. So no, it's not as simple as pick a popular Marvel ip and rake in the cash. It didn't work with avengers. It didn't work with gotg. If I was a betting person I would say it's not going to work with the upcoming DC games. No guarantees in this business.
 

Faithless83

Banned
From a former VP of Xbox:

I've been saying this for a while now. Gamepass will make people buy less games on xbox.
"bu bu but Sony is doing it too"
Yeah, I'm worried about it too, but at least they are not doing games day one.
Doing for old games is a great way to profit on games that wouldn't turn in money anyways (Sony PC releases), but still...
I'm expecting a lot of "straight to gamepass/plus games" with subpar quality and people shrugging with "at least it's free" argument.
 
From a former VP of Xbox:


A former VP of Xbox who left Microsoft in 2004... and who certainly wished he had the opportunities and freedoms Phil and the current Xbox team now has. The industry has changed drastically since 2004.

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/ed-fries-leaves-microsoft

With Spotify, which he makes a horrible comparison to, he doesn't even acknowledge the differences in the industries. He says how spotify cut music revenue in half, but a lot of the money these days, if not most, is made from in-game micro-transactions and things like DLC, live service models. Music is made entirely independent of platform. Videogames are largely an entirely different creative process and undertaking, hardware and API specific programming. Music is far easier to distribute in many different places, hence why you would be stupid to not be on spotify once you have a finished and released product if the competition and everybody else is benefitting from it. Because of exclusives in the gaming space, be it Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, the same pressures will never exist on the same level as it did in the music industry with things such as Spotify. There are built in protections for the games industry that don't exist for music. You're not getting any music that can only run on Sony platforms or Microsoft platforms.

And where is his acknowledgment of the differences in the consumer markets?

Microsoft putting a bunch of awesome games onto game pass day one and essentially free won't suddenly make people not give a damn about Spider-Man 2, God of War: Ragnarok, Wolverine, the next Zelda, the next GTA. It's literally like Ed Fries is stuck in time back in the year 2004. Even physical game sales aren't what they use to be compared to back in 2004. Did he also have similar fears about digital distribution for games? I also suspect he certainly did. Nobody is crying for Gamestop.
 

The Alien

Member
Were they a mess back then? Not at all, in fact.

At that time, PS4 was outselling Xbox One at a ratio of just 1.4. PS5 is currently outselling Xbox Series X|S at a ratio of 1.4. In terms of market share, they were in a very similar position back then as they are now.
Well, they were coming off the 360 generation when they were at a 1:1 with PS.

But I was more focused on their capabilities. They didn't have management support that they have now and they certainly didn't have the studio support to be a farm team for Marvel.

PS studios and MS studios were in a different place. Sony was churning out great 1st party games with successful studios. MS had a handful of studios and some IP. Gears for example was a purchased IP that they needed to build a studio around. And they had 343 and Halo. Not much else. Like they did during the 360 gen, they relied heavily on 3rd party support. Sony not so much.

Respect your opinion, but really can't have seen Xbox making Marvel games back in 2014 with what they had. Now....hells yeah they could/should do it.
 
Well, they were coming off the 360 generation when they were at a 1:1 with PS.

But I was more focused on their capabilities. They didn't have management support that they have now and they certainly didn't have the studio support to be a farm team for Marvel.

PS studios and MS studios were in a different place. Sony was churning out great 1st party games with successful studios. MS had a handful of studios and some IP. Gears for example was a purchased IP that they needed to build a studio around. And they had 343 and Halo. Not much else. Like they did during the 360 gen, they relied heavily on 3rd party support. Sony not so much.

Respect your opinion, but really can't have seen Xbox making Marvel games back in 2014 with what they had. Now....hells yeah they could/should do it.
I don't think first party studio/team was an issue. Sony didn't assign Spider-Man to a first-party studio either. They gave it to Insomniac, which wasn't a first-party studio and was actually working on Sunset Overdrive, an Xbox exclusive around that same timeframe.
 
Damn... Activision really pulled the "good luck finding someone better than me..." card :messenger_tears_of_joy:

OT: I love hearing back stories like this! I can't even imagine the amount of stories, just like this, that went down. There is no way this doesn't happen more often. The "what if" scenarios you could play based on those stories :messenger_dizzy:

Also, hindsight is 20/20. Great insight from PS to choose the Insomniac for the game.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
 
I've been saying this for a while now. Gamepass will make people buy less games on xbox.
"bu bu but Sony is doing it too"
Yeah, I'm worried about it too, but at least they are not doing games day one.
Doing for old games is a great way to profit on games that wouldn't turn in money anyways (Sony PC releases), but still...
I'm expecting a lot of "straight to gamepass/plus games" with subpar quality and people shrugging with "at least it's free" argument.

Square that with Elden Ring performance or Forza Horizon 5's performance before even touching Game Pass. Or the actual statistics.

Halo Infinite Campaign was free with Game Pass, and it still outsold COD Vanguard for the month of December on both Xbox AND on PC.

This is all the same stuff I heard back when digital distribution was taking off, and everybody was so afraid for their physical games and letting their friends borrow them, just on rinse and repeat. I remember all the concern over that, and where are we now? Digital vastly outperforms physical sales. It's not even funny. Gamestop's business model has basically been turned on its head. And subscription based services will become an ever more popular option for the future. Just how it is.

Look at Sony.. embracing the hell out of live service titles, which for many will make total sense as PS Plus day ones. All the things people suggested Sony would never do, like pay for online, they eventually did do. What sony recently did is make PS Plus as exciting as the draw to Game Pass was with all those free games for one low monthly price, just without day one. If nobody thinks Sony is headed to day ones eventually, you're in for a surprise, just like all the folks who thought Sony would never embrace PC releases, which will also eventually start happening day one when Sony's PC stuff catches up. Sony is quite literally announcing that they're going multi-platform, so we know what they mean, PC and Playstation.

 
Square that with Elden Ring performance or Forza Horizon 5's performance before even touching Game Pass. Or the actual statistics.

Halo Infinite Campaign was free with Game Pass, and it still outsold COD Vanguard for the month of December on both Xbox AND on PC.

This is all the same stuff I heard back when digital distribution was taking off, and everybody was so afraid for their physical games and letting their friends borrow them, just on rinse and repeat. I remember all the concern over that, and where are we now? Digital vastly outperforms physical sales. It's not even funny. Gamestop's business model has basically been turned on its head. And subscription based services will become an ever more popular option for the future. Just how it is.

Look at Sony.. embracing the hell out of live service titles, which for many will make total sense as PS Plus day ones. All the things people suggested Sony would never do, like pay for online, they eventually did do. What sony recently did is make PS Plus as exciting as the draw to Game Pass was with all those free games for one low monthly price, just without day one. If nobody thinks Sony is headed to day ones eventually, you're in for a surprise, just like all the folks who thought Sony would never embrace PC releases, which will also eventually start happening day one when Sony's PC stuff catches up. Sony is quite literally announcing that they're going multi-platform, so we know what they mean, PC and Playstation.

Nice marketing materials:messenger_weary::messenger_ok:
 
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Jaybe

Gold Member
Square that with Elden Ring performance or Forza Horizon 5's performance before even touching Game Pass. Or the actual statistics.

Halo Infinite Campaign was free with Game Pass, and it still outsold COD Vanguard for the month of December on both Xbox AND on PC.

This is all the same stuff I heard back when digital distribution was taking off, and everybody was so afraid for their physical games and letting their friends borrow them, just on rinse and repeat. I remember all the concern over that, and where are we now? Digital vastly outperforms physical sales. It's not even funny. Gamestop's business model has basically been turned on its head. And subscription based services will become an ever more popular option for the future. Just how it is.

Look at Sony.. embracing the hell out of live service titles, which for many will make total sense as PS Plus day ones. All the things people suggested Sony would never do, like pay for online, they eventually did do. What sony recently did is make PS Plus as exciting as the draw to Game Pass was with all those free games for one low monthly price, just without day one. If nobody thinks Sony is headed to day ones eventually, you're in for a surprise, just like all the folks who thought Sony would never embrace PC releases, which will also eventually start happening day one when Sony's PC stuff catches up. Sony is quite literally announcing that they're going multi-platform, so we know what they mean, PC and Playstation.


Here’s independent research numbers, not MS marketing material. GP subs spend more but only minorly. He even politely calls out MS lol. There is likely causation at play as who would be attracted to the service and see value from it other than people that are heavily engaged in gaming to begin with, no? I think he covers it in the Q&A.

Time stamp 27:40 if it doesn’t start there

 
Nice marketing materials:messenger_weary::messenger_ok:

Yes, because Microsoft, a publicly traded $2 trillion dollar company, is going to lie.

People will have to accept that Microsoft has always had good ideas for pushing the industry forward and those ideas work. People don't usually accept that they work till Sony ends up doing the same. Sony is following suit for good reason on PC releases and also heavily revamping PS Plus. I notice also nobody complains about Live Service games like they use to anymore because Sony has embraced that, too. Not implying Live Service games are a Microsoft innovation, but you guys get the point. Slowly but surely everybody is being dragged into the future.

Trust me when I say this: Game Pass is nothing to fear, just like this innocent Lion wasn't.

 

Jaybe

Gold Member
Yes, because Microsoft, a publicly traded $2 trillion dollar company, is going to lie.

Interesting reach. You using MS marketing materials and the poster saying nice marketing materials, then you pull the ‘oh you think they are lying’ card. Look, maybe you don’t work with businesses, but there is a whole craft to taking data and making it fit the narrative your company is seeking to push. All businesses do this. That’s why independent non-biased research is so valued. And reports to Wall Street as there are legal regulations. So yes, MS spins this data to the audience they want an action on, in the case of your materials, they want game devs on their platform at a lower cost.
 
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Here’s independent research numbers, not MS marketing material. GP subs spend more but only minorly. He even politely calls out MS lol. There is likely causation at play as who would be attracted to the service and see value from it other than people that are heavily engaged in gaming to begin with, no? I think he covers it in the Q&A.

Time stamp 27:40 if it doesn’t start there


So your source is someone who does not have all the same internal data as Microsoft does, is using US only figures, and is only using Q4 2021... Surely you can't be serious, right?

Microsoft's data covers data before and after game pass entry, and some of their data covers a far larger sample size from Jan 2020 - January 2021, Microsoft is also giving you PER game data and spending versus like for like users, data this person can't possibly possess. Microsoft's numbers are simply more reliable.

What you call marketing numbers is what's shared to their investors as well. You implying they're lying to their investors?

 

Jaybe

Gold Member
So your source is someone who does not have all the same internal data as Microsoft does, is using US only figures, and is only using Q4 2021... Surely you can't be serious, right?

Microsoft's data covers data before and after game pass entry, and some of their data covers a far larger sample size from Jan 2020 - January 2021, Microsoft is also giving you PER game data and spending versus like for like users, data this person can't possibly possess. Microsoft's numbers are simply more reliable.

What you call marketing numbers is what's shared to their investors as well. You implying they're lying to their investors?

Watch the video. See my other post re financials. Please stop embarrassing yourself. lol, live from Reach indeed.
 
People will have to accept that Microsoft has always had good ideas for pushing the industry forward and those ideas work. People don't usually accept that they work till Sony ends up doing the same. Sony is following suit for good reason on PC releases and also heavily revamping PS Plus. I notice also nobody complains about Live Service games like they use to anymore because Sony has embraced that, too. Not implying Live Service games are a Microsoft innovation, but you guys get the point. Slowly but surely everybody is being dragged into the future.
Suspicious Meme GIF by MOODMAN
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Yes, because Microsoft, a publicly traded $2 trillion dollar company, is going to lie.

People will have to accept that Microsoft has always had good ideas for pushing the industry forward and those ideas work. People don't usually accept that they work till Sony ends up doing the same. Sony is following suit for good reason on PC releases and also heavily revamping PS Plus. I notice also nobody complains about Live Service games like they use to anymore because Sony has embraced that, too. Not implying Live Service games are a Microsoft innovation, but you guys get the point. Slowly but surely everybody is being dragged into the future.

Trust me when I say this: Game Pass is nothing to fear, just like this innocent Lion wasn't.

Damn idiot. Tendons and all came out.
 
Interesting reach. You using MS marketing materials and the poster saying nice marketing materials, then you pull the ‘oh you think they are lying’ card. Look, maybe you don’t work with businesses, but there is a whole craft to taking data and making it fit the narrative your company is seeking to push. All businesses do this. That’s why independent non-biased research is so valued. And reports to Wall Street as their are legal regulations. So yes, MS spins this data to the audience they want an action on, in the case of your materials, they want game devs on their platform at a lower cost.


I actually manage and work with a few very successful businesses (understatement, but we will go with this) where I'm often in a position to provide the types of information on performance to our partners when discussing our services. I won't even include private contracts because then we would be in territory where I'm not willing to go far enough to prove the point, but contrary to what you might think, and what we may discuss around here, my business side knowledge is much higher than you might initially think.

I make nearly weekly deposits or get direct deposits in these kinds of amounts.



And this is money in my pockets, not money needed to run the business.
 
If 70% of AAA titles are available for free as part of a subscription, all third party publishers won’t need to be gobbled up. They will be forced to take a hair cut and list their games on these subscription services.

In this scenario, 3rd parties see their revenues practically cut in half or even worse. This would push them to release every game as a GaaS game that is designed from the ground up to eek out every cent in MTXs from the gamer.

This is not the future you or I want.

The only scenario I see accommodating both subscription and traditional gaming is one where the HD twins are full subscription and Nintendo maintains course. Nintendo IPs are strong enough and high enough quality that they could live outside of a subscription ecosystem.

This would be even worse than the above, considering that Nintendo essentially sells mostly Nintendo published games and popular Japanese franchises.

Essentially, any game made by a western publisher or made by a Japanese publisher for the global market, would either be cut down in scope from AAA to A or AA at most, or become a nickel-and-diming GaaS MTX-fest.

Do. Not. Want. (And neither do publishers)

The only realistic scenario outside of all major 3rd parties being acquired by subs platform holders, is the current status quo, with games sales continuing to be the dominant distribution platform and subs services acting as a supplementary offering to expand the reach and visibility of smaller and older less popular games.
 

DarkMage619

Report me if I continue to console war
Had plenty to do with them and how many different studios and hands were in that CD3 pie, due to MS studio mismanagement.

Sumo rescued the shitshow that it was over the years to actually get a product out the door.
Sounds like they didn't have the resources to do anything with a Marvel license. They had other issues to deal with like building up their first party studios.
 

Larlight

Member
Marvel games generally suck ass. Spider-Man is the exception not the rule, and Spider-Man works so well because his powers are fun when translated into gameplay elements.
usually that is not the case.

with Hulk for example all you can really do is to make a generic beat em up... or Iron Man is usually boring because constantly flying around and using weak ass looking hand blasters is simply not that fun.

I see you didn't play Hulk Ultimate Destruction on PS2. GOAT Hulk game.
 

Faithless83

Banned
Square that with Elden Ring performance or Forza Horizon 5's performance before even touching Game Pass. Or the actual statistics.

Halo Infinite Campaign was free with Game Pass, and it still outsold COD Vanguard for the month of December on both Xbox AND on PC.

This is all the same stuff I heard back when digital distribution was taking off, and everybody was so afraid for their physical games and letting their friends borrow them, just on rinse and repeat. I remember all the concern over that, and where are we now? Digital vastly outperforms physical sales. It's not even funny. Gamestop's business model has basically been turned on its head. And subscription based services will become an ever more popular option for the future. Just how it is.

Look at Sony.. embracing the hell out of live service titles, which for many will make total sense as PS Plus day ones. All the things people suggested Sony would never do, like pay for online, they eventually did do. What sony recently did is make PS Plus as exciting as the draw to Game Pass was with all those free games for one low monthly price, just without day one. If nobody thinks Sony is headed to day ones eventually, you're in for a surprise, just like all the folks who thought Sony would never embrace PC releases, which will also eventually start happening day one when Sony's PC stuff catches up. Sony is quite literally announcing that they're going multi-platform, so we know what they mean, PC and Playstation.

Here are some numbers, not from a business conference though:
 

01011001

Gold Member
I see you didn't play Hulk Ultimate Destruction on PS2. GOAT Hulk game.

it was decent at best, fun for like half an hour and then the extremely shallow gameplay starts to show.

compare that to any more sophisticated hack n slay/beat em up and it will not compare favourably.

but I mean, sure it's fun enough if you just want a game to mindlessly punch stuff, not a bad game... but that was also not the time period in which this deal went down at all.

by the end of the PS360 era, Marvel games were almost entirely terrible, with only a tiny fraction being somewhat ok games...
 

Larlight

Member
it was decent at best, fun for like half an hour and then the extremely shallow gameplay starts to show.

compare that to any more sophisticated hack n slay/beat em up and it will not compare favourably.

but I mean, sure it's fun enough if you just want a game to mindlessly punch stuff, not a bad game... but that was also not the time period in which this deal went down at all.

by the end of the PS360 era, Marvel games were almost entirely terrible, with only a tiny fraction being somewhat ok games...

Wait you know I'm talking about the open world Hulk game right? The one with destructible environments?
 

01011001

Gold Member
Wait you know I'm talking about the open world Hulk game right? The one with destructible environments?

yes, games like that. "power fantasy" games if you will, are fun for a while, but just like Prototype that "hell yeah imma destroy all those cars!" factor wears off really fast. and not much than a VERY basic fighting system is what's left if that fun factor of climbing buildings and smashing stuff wears off.

imo, that's why it is often better to restrict the abilities of the character and focus on more depth with/with less OP abilities

but again, it's not a bad game or anything, it's just very basic (which can be exactly what you want sometimes of course, like I loved Crackdown 3 even tho it's a really dumb game at the core, it's in a similar position to Ultimate Destruction actually, pretty comparable)
 
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Marvel was looking for the hat full of money and they found it.
Top Hat Money GIF by Millions


Sony should have said: yes, but only if we are allowed to make the games on Xbox will we partner with you!


Moneyhat would entail the company or publisher was seeking or seeking to make the deal in the first place. this is not the case, as marvel seemed to of went to sony, sony chose insomniac games. at the time, before the whole bungie deal and when timed exclusives was becoming a thing. Some publishers would make deals for exclusives, yeah shocking right! /s doesn't work that way buddy but hey you do you 😉
 
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Zok310

Member
I'm not familiar with movie or music industry but how much crash have they been through?Because video games have been through one and apparently almost 2 in that 16bit thread is to be believed (is to believe?)
what caused those crash was mostly mismanagement, that type of crash won't happen today, the industry have learned what and what not to do. But Ed believes how we purchase our games would cause a crash that would eliminate many pubs if we went to full sub model.
 

Iced Arcade

Member
After licensing fees and the cut to Disney/Marvel it was probably seen as a waste even though these IPs sell and move consoles with little effort among kids.

That being said I enjoyed the shit out of spiderman.
 

Rockman33

Member
Yes, I believe so. But now I think it'll be "legendary" level.
Definitely. I’m a big fan of insomniacs Spider-Man games and super excited for Spider-Man 2 and wolverine.

I also remember liking those old school hulk games and Deadpool was pretty fun. But to be fair they are nowhere near the quality of insomniac’s marvel games.

I would be happy for some AA marvel and DC games. Maybe $30-40. Just so many cool characters that would thrive in a game. But the fact it takes 3-5 years these days to get games out I feel like we will never get to see these characters in a game.
 
Moneyhat would entail the company or publisher was seeking or seeking to make the deal in the first place. this is not the case, as marvel seemed to of went to sony, sony chose insomniac games. at the time, before the whole bungie deal and when timed exclusives was becoming a thing. Some publishers would make deals for exclusives, yeah shocking right! /s doesn't work that way buddy but hey you do you 😉
It does not matter who decided that there would be a hat or no, we usually just don't know who initiates the talk... nor do we know the motivations.

That being said, I see no problem with that kind of deal.
 
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