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It's really simple but you keep missing the point: Xbox library is shared across XSX, XSS and PC (and XB1 for a period). PS5 has exclusives only on PS5. It has/will have Playstation platform exclusives too, only on PS4/PS5. Same for Switch.

So of course, given the above, the choice between an Xbox or a PC is a real one. Whereas a PC doesnt help you if you want those PS4/5 or Switch games. So one console out of the three is pitched differently to the other two in this sense, can you not see that?

But for someone that is playing in their ecosystem with their PC, buying a box I can resume my game if I want to game on my living room TV cannot be undersold. Also now it appears that SONY will be porting games to PC which is only putting my PS5 purchase into question. I have no need for Miles Morales as the only reason to buy a PS 5 right now(loved Spider-Man, but this game alone doesn’t justify a purchase.) These brand new GPUs are only not competing with Switch (largely handheld experience), they absolutely are competing and if SONY has a robust PC port plan, I won’t ever get a PS5.

 

[Bryank75]

How do maths work?

Sony makes the vast majority of playstation earnings through microtransactions and digital games sold.
If you can expand that by 50% or 100% , even if you give a 30% away to steam you still get the most growth possible.

That's MTX from games like Fortnite and COD...... they don't have MTX in their games, which proves me absolutely right. See, you PC people have no idea....

Exclusives are a tiny part of the picture.

As I said they make 21 Billion a year, 5 times or more what Steam does, it is a bigger platform and multiplatform games make them the most money, exclusives are there to attract people NOT to single-handedly make the big money.

 

[Shmunter]

How do maths work?

Sony makes the vast majority of playstation earnings through microtransactions and digital games sold.
If you can expand that by 50% or 100% , even if you give a 30% away to steam you still get the most growth possible.

The micro transactions are from a 30% cut off 3rd party sales because they are sold on psn. It’s $0 for Sony on Steam because it’s not their eco system.

 

[Papacheeks]

I think Digital Foundry putting too much faith into AI based rendering is not a good look. There are a lot of games that run well on good PC specific engines that give amazing visual quality without needing to have the image re-constructed.

Anything running Unreal 4, Gears 5, tactics. I can't wait to see native 4k FF7:R to me that will be the test. If they did make 4k assets originally and have those and implement those without the need for DLSS and they run well on nvidia gpu's, then I think we will have something to discuss.

 

[VincentMatts]

Why only focus on the Series X when the exact same applies to the PS5?

Silly question I suppose.

Because its a "trash xbox" forum.

 

[TheGreatWhiteShark]

its ok to troll me in the super-troll "analysis-speculation" thread. no so ok everywhere else.

 

[Journey]

Xbox Series X can’t have catch a break.

Yea, being closely compared to the new monster 3070 GPU is such a low bar, poor XSX.

But where have I heard comments like these regarding a miracle in engineering?


Oh yea, I know where:

"Xbox 360 was PowerPC based and Xbox One is x86 based, it would take an engineering miracle to achieve backward compatibility".


Yea, it will take a miracle, but miracles do happen from time to time lol.

Spoiler

Extreme wishful thinking

 

[sircaw]

its ok to troll me in the super-troll "analysis-speculation" thread. no so ok everywhere else.

Let it go Dude, you are going to give yourself a heart attack.

Microsoft is not paying you for this, ITs not worth it.

 

[ozz ex machina]

I think Digital Foundry putting too much faith into AI based rendering is not a good look. There are a lot of games that run well on good PC specific engines that give amazing visual quality without needing to have the image re-constructed.

Anything running Unreal 4, Gears 5, tactics. I can't wait to see native 4k FF7:R to me that will be the test. If they did make 4k assets originally and have those and implement those without the need for DLSS and they run well on nvidia gpu's, then I think we will have something to discuss.

What are you actually trying to say here? In some instances DLSS 2.0 gives better quality than native 4k with much better performance. The way things are going every PC game will have it after another year or so and everyone will use it by default.

People have 4k 120hz gsync. So the idea of churning native 4k for half the performance even if it looks slightly better - sounds like an appalling option.

It's a good look. It's the fucking best look. This tech is magic.

 

[mckmas8808]

And Switch 2 will likely have Tensor cores and use DLSS 2.0 (or even the next gen of that). Scenes when a ~3 TF docked console delivers virtually the same visual output as the XSX and PS5.

Are you smoking crack!?

 

[TheGreatWhiteShark]

That's MTX from games like Fortnite and COD...... they don't have MTX in their games, which proves me absolutely right. See, you PC people have no idea....

Exclusives are a tiny part of the picture.

As I said they make 21 Billion a year, 5 times or more what Steam does, it is a bigger platform and multiplatform games make them the most money, exclusives are there to attract people NOT to single-handedly make the big money.

At one point you guys will have to decide....
Do people play on console "because playstation exclusives" or because they prefer console gaming? huh?

Sony puts up the money for the games they develop.
If they can get a 200% return on that investment and in a fraction of time than they currently are getting, thats a sound target.

 

[Redlight]

It's really simple but you keep missing the point: Xbox library is shared across XSX, XSS and PC (and XB1 for a period). PS5 has exclusives only on PS5. It has/will have Playstation platform exclusives too, only on PS4/PS5. Same for Switch.

So of course, given the above, the choice between an Xbox or a PC is a real one. Whereas a PC doesnt help you if you want those PS4/5 or Switch games. So one console out of the three is pitched differently to the other two in this sense, can you not see that?

If you are primarily a PC gamer and want a console to complement your gaming selection, then a Switch or PS5 may be right for you. Some PC gamers, though, might find it more convenient to have an Xbox as well because Xbox games are persistent over both ecosystems. Buy it once, own it for both and play it on either. Clearly MS doesn't care where you play their titles.

However...

I think the vast majority of console gamers are just that, console only gamers.
The choice between an Xbox or a PC isn't a dilemma for console only gamers.
For console only gamers the existence of the PC is completely irrelevant.
I will, at no stage, consider purchasing a gaming PC.
I am not rare in the console gaming space.

 

[Nikana]

That's MTX from games like Fortnite and COD...... they don't have MTX in their games, which proves me absolutely right. See, you PC people have no idea....

Exclusives are a tiny part of the picture.

As I said they make 21 Billion a year, 5 times or more what Steam does, it is a bigger platform and multiplatform games make them the most money, exclusives are there to attract people NOT to single-handedly make the big money.

Who doesn't? Sony? They definitely do.

 

[TheGreatWhiteShark]

Let it go Dude, you are going to give yourself a heart attack.

Microsoft is not paying you for this, ITs not worth it.

In this forum, practically in almost every thread, a bunch of people spend hours upon hours to try and downplay xbox in favor of ps5, most of the time producing the most ridiculous of arguments the world has seen in order to do so. They make it impossible to have *any* reasonable conversation and many times make the forum a chore to even read.
So here is a fact for you and all like you:
If NVIDIA announcements "take the power crown" from xbox, they sure do place playstation 5 at the very bottom of next gen barrel.

 

[Bryank75]

Who doesn't? Sony? They definitely do.

The games we are talking about... GOW, TLOU2, GOT, Death Stranding, Horizon.....

I think GT Sport might have some but I'm not sure, I only play GT with full campaign.

 

[Papacheeks]

What are you actually trying to say here? In some instances DLSS 2.0 gives better quality than native 4k with much better performance. The way things are going every PC game will have it after another year or so and everyone will use it by default.

People have 4k 120hz gsync. So the idea of churning native 4k for half the performance even if it looks slightly better - sounds like an appalling option.

It's a good look. It's the fucking best look. This tech is magic.

I was going to ask someone to create a thread about this but I guess I'll give it my best to explain what I'm trying to say:


Most of the games or instances where DLSS recontructs a better rendered image are from game engines that their base assets were targeting consoles. So there for using something like lets say UE5 demo assets is out of the question, hell even sometimes raw 4k assets even downsampled create bottleneck/performance issues on current consoles. Hence the use of checkerboarding for PS4PRO.

Games like Gears 5 and the likes have native high end made 4k assets, that are huge and actually make use of your memory. And native rendered image wise does not need or require reconstruction.

Games like Wolfenstein's game assets are mostly targeting consoles, they don't use 4k+ assets and then downsample them 100% to scale on a PS4PRO even if using checkerboarding which is doing a similar reconstruction type technique.

DLSS is AI based, so thats why a lot of the reconstruction when done looks sometimes better in certain game/engines like DECIMA.

But this right now is on games that are console bound in terms of their asset quality they can use unless they make separate 4k+ quality versions to use on PC which is the case for unreal 4 games like gears.

Like the true test, is implementing it on just a driver level so you could in essence force it to use DLSS so we could compare gears 5 native rendered 4k against DLSS. I bet you my account native is going to look cleaner and more refined while dlss is going to have a smooth look to it.

DLSS helps when the game itself asset wise doesn;t have the best quality assets. like death stranding when looking at it the engine it's running on is based on console hardware. Like they are updating that engine now for next gen so, games like Horizon: Forbidden west are going to have possibly 4k+ textures, denser character models with higher polycount and higher rendered effects.
I want to see that game native 4k on PC vs DLSS version.


DLSS is for games with poor rendered assets. If a game was made for a certain subset of hardware they are not going to have high end assets created that takes a shit ton of work unless it was being built from the beginning that those targeted specs in mind.

New engines now targeting native 4k+ assets vs DLSS is going to be something that I think AMD, and others are going to start showing.

 

[Nikana]

The games we are talking about... GOW, TLOU2, GOT, Death Stranding, Horizon.....

I think GT Sport might have some but I'm not sure, I only play GT with full campaign.

You said that graph was from MTX and DLC from stuff like Fortnite. Their own MTX and DLC is included.

 

[GHG]

*I hope most of you that praise 3080 with its 10GB RAM, got the message that xbox's 560Gb/s 10GB RAM is enough.

If you actually read the 30 series threads (but then why would you when you're a myopic console diehard...) then you would realise most people have raised concerns about how long 10gb will be "enough", even at 1440p. This is what happens when people question what is being offered by companies they are considering buying from instead of lapping up any old rubbish - you should try it sometime.

In addition that's 10gb of dedicated Vram, not 10gb that contributes to some shitty shared pool. Most of us have 16-32gb of system ram in addition to that 10gb.

Finally it's gddr6x so the bandwidth is 760GB/s.

Get a clue before you post your nonsense, or is that too much to ask?

 

[Bryank75]

You said that graph was from MTX and DLC from stuff like Fortnite. Their own MTX and DLC is included.

And which games make the most for them in MTX?

By far games like fortnite, cod, Fifa and Fall Guys.

They make sweet F all from their own games microtransactions.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Are you smoking crack!?

The meltdowns will be glorious, that's for sure.

 

[Nikana]

And which games make the most for them in MTX?

By far games like fortnite, cod, Fifa and Fall Guys.

They make sweet F all from their own games microtransactions.

Receipts?

 

[TheGreatWhiteShark]

If you actually read the 30 series threads (but then why would you when you're a myopic console diehard...) then you would realise most people have raised concerns about how long 10gb will be "enough", even at 1440p. This is what happens when people question what is being offered by companies they are considering buying from instead of lapping up any old rubbish - you should try it sometime.

In addition that's 10gb of dedicated Vram, not 10gb that contributes to some shitty shared pool. Most of us have 16-32gb of system ram in addition to that 10gb.

Finally it's gddr6x so the bandwidth is 760GB/s.

Get a clue before you post your nonsense, or is that too much to ask?

Funny that you post silly gifs and post pompous things, while in reality you know nothing.
I wont even waste time to refute you. Goto beyond3d and read about the things you are mentioning here. Maybe you will learn something.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Should also add PS5 to it too.

They are mentioned, but Sony has not based their value proposition entirely on specs (I don't think they are completely outclassed on that front anyway).

I expect the to ramp up PC gaming. Why wouldn't they? Not day and date, but I could easily see them coming 6-12 months. They got a taste of that Steam money with HZD.

For a platform holder it's not only about the "sweet Steam money", they also take the risk of losing sales on their own platform, thus selling less third party titles and losing on that front as well (also controllers and other accessories).

I don't have enough numbers to make a really good model of how it would turn out in the medium to long therm, but I can tell you that as someone who plays on PC and PS4 I would be tempted to wait a bit to get my Sony PS5 games at the same place as my Steam library.

 

[Papacheeks]

If you actually read the 30 series threads (but then why would you when you're a myopic console diehard...) then you would realise most people have raised concerns about how long 10gb will be "enough", even at 1440p. This is what happens when people question what is being offered by companies they are considering buying from instead of lapping up any old rubbish - you should try it sometime.

In addition that's 10gb of dedicated Vram, not 10gb that contributes to some shitty shared pool. Most of us have 16-32gb of system ram in addition to that 10gb.

Finally it's gddr6x so the bandwidth is 760GB/s.

Get a clue before you post your nonsense, or is that too much to ask?

Go look at memory usage at gears 5 maxed at 4K with 4k asset textures. It's goes beyond 8gb's. Call of duty Modern warfare uses 10gb's of my 16gb in Radon VII at 1440p.

It's a per engine type of thing. When newer engines like UE5 and the engines from first party get updated, and assets are being created at 4k+ pixel density, hell UE5 demo was using movie quality assets which was something close to 8k in it's pixel density. And that was at 1440p. Why do you think NVIDIA'S demo showed at 1440p 30fps similar to UE5 demo

Go look at memory usage on Red dead 2 with settings set to high/ultra at 4k.

It's pretty big.

Radeon VII hadHBM2 was 1tf of memory bandwidth and that was almost 2 years old.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

I was going to ask someone to create a thread about this but I guess I'll give it my best to explain what I'm trying to say:


Most of the games or instances where DLSS recontructs a better rendered image are from game engines that their base assets were targeting consoles. So there for using something like lets say UE5 demo assets is out of the question, hell even sometimes raw 4k assets even downsampled create bottleneck/performance issues on current consoles. Hence the use of checkerboarding for PS4PRO.

Games like Gears 5 and the likes have native high end made 4k assets, that are huge and actually make use of your memory. And native rendered image wise does not need or require reconstruction.

Games like Wolfenstein's game assets are mostly targeting consoles, they don't use 4k+ assets and then downsample them 100% to scale on a PS4PRO even if using checkerboarding which is doing a similar reconstruction type technique.

DLSS is AI based, so thats why a lot of the reconstruction when done looks sometimes better in certain game/engines like DECIMA.

But this right now is on games that are console bound in terms of their asset quality they can use unless they make separate 4k+ quality versions to use on PC which is the case for unreal 4 games like gears.

Like the true test, is implementing it on just a driver level so you could in essence force it to use DLSS so we could compare gears 5 native rendered 4k against DLSS. I bet you my account native is going to look cleaner and more refined while dlss is going to have a smooth look to it.

DLSS helps when the game itself asset wise doesn;t have the best quality assets. like death stranding when looking at it the engine it's running on is based on console hardware. Like they are updating that engine now for next gen so, games like Horizon: Forbidden west are going to have possibly 4k+ textures, denser character models with higher polycount and higher rendered effects.
I want to see that game native 4k on PC vs DLSS version.


DLSS is for games with poor rendered assets. If a game was made for a certain subset of hardware they are not going to have high end assets created that takes a shit ton of work unless it was being built from the beginning that those targeted specs in mind.

New engines now targeting native 4k+ assets vs DLSS is going to be something that I think AMD, and others are going to start showing.

I don't exactly get what you're saying. With higher resolution ground truth assets, DLSS will only look even better. Let's say Sony brings the new Horizon to PC. Nvidia would then run Horizon at 16K resolution and train the AI to mimick that. Why would DLSS now look worse than native?

 

[Bryank75]

Receipts?

'But that DLC and microtransaction category is far and away the biggest money-spinner for Sony. Remember, it pockets 30 per cent of the overall transaction whenever someone pods out for GTA Online currency or card packs in FIFA Ultimate Team. So while you may not particularly like it, this practice is not going away any time soon.'

FY20 Q1 (Apr 1- Jun 30). This period saw the release of FF7R and TLOU2 but was too early for GOT...... none of them have microtransactions or paid DLC.

PlayStation mtx is overwhelmingly GTA shark cards, Fifa, Fortnite lootboxes and COD. We all know that. There is nowhere else for it to come from. It's the only logical conclusion.

 

[GHG]

Funny that you post silly gifs and post pompous things, while in reality you know nothing.
I wont even waste time to refute you. Goto beyond3d and read about the things you are mentioning here. Maybe you will learn something.

I'm not the one here trying to lecture people.

Carry on, you'll fall on your sword sooner or later anyway.

 

[diffusionx]

I was going to ask someone to create a thread about this but I guess I'll give it my best to explain what I'm trying to say:


Most of the games or instances where DLSS recontructs a better rendered image are from game engines that their base assets were targeting consoles. So there for using something like lets say UE5 demo assets is out of the question, hell even sometimes raw 4k assets even downsampled create bottleneck/performance issues on current consoles. Hence the use of checkerboarding for PS4PRO.

Games like Gears 5 and the likes have native high end made 4k assets, that are huge and actually make use of your memory. And native rendered image wise does not need or require reconstruction.

Games like Wolfenstein's game assets are mostly targeting consoles, they don't use 4k+ assets and then downsample them 100% to scale on a PS4PRO even if using checkerboarding which is doing a similar reconstruction type technique.

DLSS is AI based, so thats why a lot of the reconstruction when done looks sometimes better in certain game/engines like DECIMA.

But this right now is on games that are console bound in terms of their asset quality they can use unless they make separate 4k+ quality versions to use on PC which is the case for unreal 4 games like gears.

Like the true test, is implementing it on just a driver level so you could in essence force it to use DLSS so we could compare gears 5 native rendered 4k against DLSS. I bet you my account native is going to look cleaner and more refined while dlss is going to have a smooth look to it.

DLSS helps when the game itself asset wise doesn;t have the best quality assets. like death stranding when looking at it the engine it's running on is based on console hardware. Like they are updating that engine now for next gen so, games like Horizon: Forbidden west are going to have possibly 4k+ textures, denser character models with higher polycount and higher rendered effects.
I want to see that game native 4k on PC vs DLSS version.


DLSS is for games with poor rendered assets. If a game was made for a certain subset of hardware they are not going to have high end assets created that takes a shit ton of work unless it was being built from the beginning that those targeted specs in mind.

New engines now targeting native 4k+ assets vs DLSS is going to be something that I think AMD, and others are going to start showing.

I do not think you fully understand how DLSS works, and underestimate the work Nvidia has put into this. The Nvidia CEO, during the presentation, noted that their AI program "anchors" the algorithm to extremely high-res data (16K) when it calculates the upscaling. If that high-res data is more "complete", in that the assets are better, I would actually expect DLSS to produce *better* results. Now, that said, it might not be like Death Stranding where the DLSS can look better than native 4K (or it might be - I don't see why it wouldn't), but I do think that the technology would work fine with games with higher quality assets.

 

[TheGreatWhiteShark]

I'm not the one here trying to lecture people.

Carry on, you'll fall on your sword sooner or later anyway.

I dont remember asking your permission for anything at all.
Now go read and learn something.

 

[Nikana]

'But that DLC and microtransaction category is far and away the biggest money-spinner for Sony. Remember, it pockets 30 per cent of the overall transaction whenever someone pods out for GTA Online currency or card packs in FIFA Ultimate Team. So while you may not particularly like it, this practice is not going away any time soon.'

FY20 Q1 (Apr 1- Jun 30). This period saw the release of FF7R and TLOU2 but was too early for GOT...... none of them have microtransactions or paid DLC.

PlayStation mtx is overwhelmingly GTA shark cards, Fifa, Fortnite lootboxes and COD. We all know that. There is nowhere else for it to come from. It's the only logical conclusion.

Id like to see where they make F all as you claim from their Microtransactions. Not what they did for that quarter. You claim that they make F all is what I am asking for. Microtrasnactions for an older game going down is nothing new, but if they make " F all" that would be news.

 

[Papacheeks]

I don't exactly get what you're saying. With higher resolution ground truth assets, DLSS will only look even better. Let's say Sony brings the new Horizon to PC. Nvidia would then run Horizon at 16K resolution and train the AI to mimick that. Why would DLSS now look worse than native?

DLSS is using specified algorithms that the AI guesses on how to re-construct the image. So it uses what it thinks would best fit the workload of said machine and targeted frame rate by the program and said specs set.

I do not think you fully understand how DLSS works, and underestimate the work Nvidia has put into this. The Nvidia CEO, during the presentation, noted that their AI program "anchors" the algorithm to extremely high-res data when it calculates the upscaling. If that high-res data is more "complete", in that the assets are better, I would actually expect DLSS to produce *better* results. Now, that said, it might not be like Death Stranding where the DLSS can look better than native 4K (or it might be - I don't see why it wouldn't), but I do think that the technology would work fine with games with higher quality assets.

DLSS still does not give you the same rendered picture compared to native. ANd it's a game by game per engine basis. Some engines scale well, and have asset creation where DLSS is un-needed. DLSS is a way to reconstruct an image to get better performance.

And was created because NVIDIA knows how big of hit in performance effects like Ray tracing have on a system. This is a nice way of getting you more frames without tons of sacrifice in 1:1 pixel/image quality.

The thing is all the games it's being used on are games built on engines designed mostly around certain subset of hardware with a lot of limitations.


Engines like Unreal are really well built to scale and leverage how assets are rendered/scaled. Which is why their games are so optimized and run well even with 4k asset quality set to the max.

My argument was on Digital Foundry who have made their stand on DLSS being the be all and really it's just something that was created to mitigate the cost of effects on performance like Raytraced lighting/reflections etc.

 

[jimbojim]

In this forum, practically in almost every thread, a bunch of people spend hours upon hours to try and downplay xbox in favor of ps5, most of the time producing the most ridiculous of arguments the world has seen in order to do so.

In fact, MS downplayed their own console, gloriously. We, PS fans just confirming it what MS did.

 

[sircaw]

In this forum, practically in almost every thread, a bunch of people spend hours upon hours to try and downplay xbox in favor of ps5, most of the time producing the most ridiculous of arguments the world has seen in order to do so.
So here is something for you and all like you:
If NVIDIA announcements "take the power crown" from xbox, they sure do place playstation 5 at the very bottom of next gen barrel.

That's ok, I am happy with the exclusives on ps5 and i would guess most of the other people are too., i don't think i have ever mentioned power or got my titties all in a twist like you have over it.

The Power narrative matters to you, cos that is basically all you have.

While Sony fans are running around talking about games, your spamming channels with xbox has this power % and it has that feature that is coming out in another year bla bla bla.

You are basically just like Phil Spencer, all talk and empty promises.

You are constantly trying to throw shade at ps5 and whats worse you are buying a ps5 day one. You're just like Dealer and Eastwood, a couple of hypocrites.

 

[pawel86ck]

Seeing Digital foundry paid article by Nvidia going full retard.

Everybody has already seen perfect upscaling, it requires no ML cores and is good as anybody really wants

Can anyone pick faults in below temporal application ?



So the right temporal technique is just as good as Machine learning and its available to all consoles and PC next year.

You are saying UE5 upscaling is perfect, but where you have seen UE5 4K screenshots?

 

[Bryank75]

Id like to see where they make F all as you claim from their Microtransactions. Not what they did for that quarter. You claim that they make F all is what I am asking for. Microtrasnactions for an older game going down is nothing new, but if they make " F all" that would be news.

I just mean that their exclusive games make hardly any money in the MTX / DLC category because either they do not have any or it is very limited or in much older games.

Only the massive 3rd party games with huge multiplayer elements such as GTA online, Fortnite and the others have heavily monetized systems that pull in that money..... PlayStation takes 30% of each transaction and that is probably over 90% of that category.

 

[TheGreatWhiteShark]

...............
You are constantly trying to throw shade at ps5 and whats worse you are buying a ps5 day one. You're just like Dealer and Eastwood, a couple of hypocrites.

Facts are not "shade" nor hypocrisy
And I am buying ps5 day one only if its not a frying pan like my ps4s are, I've said that many times already. If it is a frying pan, then ratchet can wait.

 

[sircaw]

Facts are not "shade" nor hypocrisy
And I am buying ps5 day one only if its not a frying pan like my ps4s are, I've said that many times already. If it is a frying pan, then ratchet can wait.

Ofc you are, enough of your rubbish now.

 

[TheGreatWhiteShark]

Only the massive 3rd party games with huge multiplayer elements such as GTA online, Fortnite and the others have heavily monetized systems that pull in that money..... PlayStation takes 30% of each transaction and that is probably over 90% of that category.

GTA 5 already is 1000X times better on PC. How does that fare for console players?
Also, I already told you, sony pays for those fancy studios in santa monica and elsewhere so they create games. Thats a big cost.
If they can double the return on their investment, thats a sound reason.

 

[diffusionx]

DLSS is using specified algorithms that the AI guesses on how to re-construct the image. So it uses what it thinks would best fit the workload of said machine and targeted frame rate by the program and said specs set.



DLSS still does not give you the same rendered picture compared to native. ANd it's a game by game per engine basis. Some engines scale well, and have asset creation where DLSS is un-needed. DLSS is a way to reconstruct an image to get better performance.

And was created because NVIDIA knows how big of hit in performance effects like Ray tracing have on a system. This is a nice way of getting you more frames without tons of sacrifice in 1:1 pixel/image quality.

The thing is all the games it's being used on are games built on engines designed mostly around certain subset of hardware with a lot of limitations.


Engines like Unreal are really well built to scale and leverage how assets are rendered/scaled. Which is why their games are so optimized and run well even with 4k asset quality set to the max.

My argument was on Digital Foundry who have made their stand on DLSS being the be all and really it's just something that was created to mitigate the cost of effects on performance like Raytraced lighting/reflections etc.

Well, the history of computing, especially in videogaming, is coming up with clever solutions to mitigate the cost of effects on performance - really that's what all the things devs do now to imitate light and shadows and reflections are, right? So don't knock RT just because that is what it is doing. The bet Nvidia is making is that raytracing + DLSS is superior to all the fake shit we are doing to imitate ray tracing now.

Again, I am not sure you fully understand the system. AI doesn't "guess" out of thin air, it is trained on data, and in this case, the data is the game running at some crazy high level with tons of details far beyond 4K. A better looking game with more details should produce a better output. If the DLSS was working with Horizon FW, it would have all that data of the game running at 16K with which to do its upscaling, so it could produce good results. It is also still early days for DLSS, as an AI program, it will continue to improve. We are already seeing that, as the jump from 1.0 to 2.0 was massive.

 

[Nikana]

I just mean that their exclusive games make hardly any money in the MTX / DLC category because either they do not have any or it is very limited or in much older games.

Only the massive 3rd party games with huge multiplayer elements such as GTA online, Fortnite and the others have heavily monetized systems that pull in that money..... PlayStation takes 30% of each transaction and that is probably over 90% of that category.

Dont buy it. Uncharted 4 alone made 56 million in one month from MTX. Thats not "hardly any money."

 

[Bernd Lauert]

DLSS is using specified algorithms that the AI guesses on how to re-construct the image. So it uses what it thinks would best fit the workload of said machine and targeted frame rate by the program and said specs set.

It is trained on a ground truth image in 16K resolution. Now it has so much data that Nvidia doesn't even need to train it on a game to game basis, but they still can if they want to. And you still haven't explained why higher quality ground truth assets would make DLSS look worse. It doesn't make much sense tbh.

 

[Bryank75]

Dont buy it. Uncharted 4 alone made 56 million in one month from MTX. Thats not "hardly any money."

Yeah, maybe around release but that was years ago and the multiplayer in that died down a lot since then.
That was... 2016?

I'm saying the figures you showed were from April to the end of June, they didn't have anything really active in that area from 1st party. Everything is years old.

 

[Papacheeks]

Well, the history of computing, especially in videogaming, is coming up with clever solutions to mitigate the cost of effects on performance - really that's what all the things devs do now to imitate light and shadows and reflections are, right? So don't knock RT just because that is what it is doing. The bet Nvidia is making is that raytracing + DLSS is superior to all the fake shit we are doing to imitate ray tracing now.

Again, I am not sure you fully understand the system. AI doesn't "guess" out of thin air, it is trained on data, and in this case, the data is the game running at some crazy high level with tons of details far beyond 4K. A better looking game with more details should produce a better output. If the DLSS was working with Horizon FW, it would have all that data of the game running at 16K with which to do its upscaling, so it could produce good results. It is also still early days for DLSS, as an AI program, it will continue to improve. We are already seeing that, as the jump from 1.0 to 2.0 was massive.

Oh I know it's trained. But that data is based on information from the game aka what is available for assets. As in the Developer gives this information in some way shape or form that gets entered into the database that the AI reads and makes a reconstructed image based on that said data that will best fit the subset.

I think once engines like unreal 5 get off the ground, your going to see possibly 2 things happen. More people using said engine, or more techniques from people like Frostbyte to leverage different techniques using these effects like ray tracing.

Remember in games this is still new so a lot of engines were not built around this. So thats why it takes such a big hit in some games. once these engines are re-engineered to use these and target hardware that now has more shader/core per SM then your going to see better results and better performance out the gate.

DLSS is great for what it is not denying that.

But people saying it's the future for rendering need their heads checked when compared to things happening to engine development currently. That UE5 demo is not a fluff piece. It literally was not using any DLSS tricks. Like nvidia's marble demo was and was able to have a crazy assets and ran at native 1440p@30fps with movie quality assets in realtime.

So

It is trained on a ground truth image in 16K resolution. Now it has so much data that Nvidia doesn't even need to train it on a game to game basis, but they still can if they want to. And you still haven't explained why higher quality ground truth assets would make DLSS look worse. It doesn't make much sense tbh.

If said engine like DECIMA does not have hand made 4k+ assets, then that data would be absent in the database AI looks at for reconstruction. it only can re-construct bases on the database, it then makes calculations based on said data in it's reconstruction.

Which is why in Death stranding's case the native 4k image looks worse because the assets it's rendering were not great to begin. When the image was reconstructed the algorithm fills in and smooth out a lot of the image which is why it has a smooth look to it when it was reconstructed.

 

[TheGreatWhiteShark]

It is trained on a ground truth image in 16K resolution. Now it has so much data that Nvidia doesn't even need to train it on a game to game basis, but they still can if they want to. And you still haven't explained why higher quality ground truth assets would make DLSS look worse. It doesn't make much sense tbh.

Interesting... Do you have any links that DLSS2 doesnt need the supercompute procedures on a game to game basis?

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Interesting... Do you have any links that DLSS2 doesnt need the supercompute procedures on a game to game basis?

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15648/nvidia-intros-dlss-20-adds-motion-vectors

 

[Bernd Lauert]

But people saying it's the future for rendering need their heads checked when compared to things happening to engine development currently. That UE5 demo is not a fluff piece. It literally was not using any DLSS tricks. Like nvidia's marble demo was and was able to have a crazy assets and ran at native 1440p@30fps with movie quality assets in realtime.

So

The Nvidia marble demo was using DLSS tricks because it was fully pathtraced with no rasterization. If you know what that means, you will never ever compare it to the UE5 demo. Btw the UE5 demo would likely run at 4k60 with DLSS at a similar level of visual quality. That's why I don't get your point.

 

[Nikana]

Yeah, maybe around release but that was years ago and the multiplayer in that died down a lot since then.
That was... 2016?

I'm saying the figures you showed were from April to the end of June, they didn't have anything really active in that area from 1st party. Everything is years old.

Again, I agree with you that older games with MTX obviously don't make as much money as time passes. But your claim was that if they ported their games over to the platform they wouldn't make MTX off of them because they dont have them.

Thats false. They do have games that have Microtransactions. The games they currently have ported, which is Horizon Zero Dawn, does have DLC, but it was included in the PC Package so there is no additional revenue stream on PC for them at the moment.

But to try and say that their games being ported to PC gives them no additional revenue sources through MTX is not found in evidence when their own games that do have MTX have brought in a lot of revenue. When MLB the Show lands on other platforms with its next iteration you better believe the MTX will bring them in revenue.

If I was a betting man, I would bet that MTX is a reason why the game is going Mutli-plat to begin with.

 

[Papacheeks]

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15648/nvidia-intros-dlss-20-adds-motion-vectors

this is why images reconstructed have a smoother look to them. P

The Nvidia marble demo was using DLSS tricks because it was fully pathtraced with no rasterization. If you know what that means, you will never ever compare it to the UE5 demo. Btw the UE5 demo would likely run at 4k60 with DLSS at a similar level of visual quality. That's why I don't get your point.

Why not?

it was running in realtime on PS5 that is way below what a 3090 can do? I think it speaks to engine optimization which has been my entire point.

 

[quest]

How do maths work?

Sony makes the vast majority of playstation earnings through microtransactions and digital games sold.
If you can expand that by 50% or 100% , even if you give a 30% away to steam you still get the most growth possible.

Except horizon shows how bad of an idea it is 200-500k sales is not worth losing millions of console sales over. You trading 500k sales for billions in revenue. Same mistake Microsoft made out of desperation to save the division from being shutdown. Sony doesn't need this to save the division like Microsoft.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

this is why images reconstructed have a smoother look to them. P

Why not?

Because it's not comparable. That marble demo would run at 240p on a PS5. It's that much more demanding compared to the UE5 demo.

it was running in realtime on PS5 that is way below what a 3090 can do? I think it speaks to engine optimization which has been my entire point.

If your entire point is that engines are so well optimized that you don't need DLSS, you picked the wrong example. I'd rather run the UE5 demo at 4K60 than 1440p30.