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[INC]

She looked fine in the original trailer, big sure, but then they added like another 20lbs of muscle

Nothing wrong with muscle bound lead females, just look at the most bad ass female lead of all time, Sarah connor

Granted she's more athletic and toned, than pure body mass

But still.

And to be perfectly honest, it wasnt her design I disliked, it was her characters arc and story that made me not give a fuck about her and her friends

 

[Xplainin]

The issue with all of this is the perception that you are paying money to have someone push an agenda down your throat.
If it comes across as a natural part of the game, no one cares.
But when you have Neil making it as obvious as he can that this is his agenda, then people get their backs up.

 

[INC]

The issue with all of this is the perception that you are paying money to have someone push an agenda down your throat.
If it comes across as a natural part of the game, no one cares.
But when you have Neil making it as obvious as he can that this is his agenda, then people get their backs up.

Pretty much this, i said in a previous thread, I'm educated enough to understand subtext.

I can read between the lines, it's like telling a joke, then having to have 10min cut scene explaining the joke, the impact and the point is completely lost

 

[Spukc]

Do people hate her for her body? Nah

Hard to hate a game nobody plays anymore

 

[notseqi]

The other choices in this game seem to just be handled with a 'why not?', rather than being earned or grounded in the same way. And that's what people have issues with.

I didn't know why this is such a big issue, but that makes it very easy to understand, thank you for your post.

 

[Mista]

We’re going to disrespect The Boss now by comparing her with Abby?

 

[KiNeMz]

Meet Gabi Garcia,

A brazilian phenom.

She is a world champion black belt in jiu jitsu and has fought a few mma fights.

Shes legit bigger than abby.

But a damn rare occurrance.

 

[prinz_valium]

That's one reason yes

 

[KOMANI]

I like how people are using Gabi Garcia as an example when she’s 6”2 and has been accused of using growth hormones.

 

[Jon Neu]

Exactly this. I remember a few years back when designs were under fire for excessive sex appeal. How unrealistic the bodies were and the outfits. Detractor said that games are unrealistic by nature.

Now it's the other way around. They are pushing their own kind of porn and the design is being criticized.

That’s the irony.

The same people who accuse others of being sexist because they design sexy female characters, are now doing their own third wave feminism porn version and can’t stand that people mock and criticize the obvious agenda behind the design of those characters.

Every single girl in the world of TLOU has a third wave feminism approved design. Somehow, hot sexy girls have dissappeared from the face of earth and all the women are strong independent that need no men. And you have badass lesbians who face bigot sandwiches, little trans kids who face religious oppression, super muscular women who have to kill the white male protagonist, badass pregnant women who don’t need the opinion of the father and so many other feminist fanservice.

They are totally entitled to do the game the way the want, but after being the ones calling out other devs for their female designs, now it’s so hypocrytical that they can’t take a criticism on theirs.

 

[cormack12]

Meet Gabi Garcia,

A brazilian phenom.

She is a world champion black belt in jiu jitsu and has fought a few mma fights.

Shes legit bigger than abby.

But a damn rare occurrance

I can't make out which side of the argument you're on but yeah freaks of nature exist. But again it would be like Tommy/Jesse being built like the mountain, it would be a wtf moment. Going in a rage and ripping clickers heads off like he's picking flowers.

In a post apocalyptic world with scant resources, you think everyone is going to step away from the stew bowl until this guy has had his 4000 calories worth while everyone else is starving?

 

[GymWolf]

I can't make out which side of the argument you're on but yeah freaks of nature exist. But again it would be like Tommy/Jesse being built like the mountain, it would be a wtf moment. Going in a rage and ripping clickers heads off like he's picking flowers.

In a post apocalyptic world with scant resources, you think everyone is going to step away from the stew bowl until this guy has had his 4000 calories worth while everyone else is starving?

That guy eats 4000 calories just for breakfast most probably

 

[Jon Neu]

I can't make out which side of the argument you're on but yeah freaks of nature exist. But again it would be like Tommy/Jesse being built like the mountain, it would be a wtf moment. Going in a rage and ripping clickers heads off like he's picking flowers.

In a post apocalyptic world with scant resources, you think everyone is going to step away from the stew bowl until this guy has had his 4000 calories worth while everyone else is starving?

A couple burritos and he will be fine.

 

[CAB_Life]

You're naive. For the record all competitive bodybuilers and physique models use steroids men and women.

I was trying to explain this in another thread, but people just don’t understand how ubiquitous steroid usage is in bodybuilding; or how young it starts or how easy it is to get these drugs. It’s gotten to the point now where the organizers are having serious discussions about the “future” of fitness and competing and just accepting the practice as a natural evolution of the sport.

Personally, I’ll never touch performance enhancing drugs unless (knock on wood) I get testicular cancer or some rare endocrine disorder and I’m forced to in order to maintain my health.

 

[midasmulligan]

 

[KormaChameleon]

I still regret on having to kill The Boss. What an amazing character!

 

[Thugnificient]

This conversation can't be had while TLOU II si still out. Too many people want to protect the game rather than have the debate.

I think ultimately it's a problem or proportions rather than muscles. Women free climbers are definitely strong but don't look weird

The problem is Abbie is ridiculously huge, and it's because they've used a woman who is sculpting every part of her musculature for career/every day, which is why it looks weird.

Spoiler: Pics from TLOU II with Abbie - can be considered story spoilers

Look at the forearms compared to Joel

Is it an issue? Only in the fact that it rips you right out the story and immersion. It's like 'wtf?', and at times camera angles lessen the impact. It was definitely the wrong creative choice for the game. I think it was a really poor choice. There's a reason why they are introduced as mini bosses in Uncharted - you could argue that in that world which is more slapstick and adventure they need it less as it's just another enemy, but they carefully seperate them out so as to not jarr the player e.g.

Because it still needs to remain somewhat grounded. You know I remember an interview with Neil where he said something along the lines of (paraphrasing as I can't find the article) 'someone will ask me why we can't make this character a woman, and I say why not? If it doesn't affect the story'. If anything is a good example of when not to use a flippant 'why not?', then this is surely it.- - and this goes beyond Abbeys character design btw. The other choices in this game seem to just be handled with a 'why not?', rather than being earned or grounded in the same way. And that's what people have issues with. But as always the mega brains who blog about games, make it an issue about 'hh huh, you can't handle muscly women. Be like me, because I am a paragon of how to live and be tolerant'.

Unless we challenge this level of reduction together we'll just be fighting for other people's vanity. Demand better,

Nate knocks these guys out on a daily basis yet when he gets help from his brother who is as strong if not stronger, they can't take out a 5'5" woman in Nadine.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

"The Boss is better than Abby."

I mean I don't even like her but... Yeah? The Boss is a better character than every TLOU/2 character. Not really a high bar to jump over.

 

[Kagero]

I like Abby. I’m invested in her story so far.

 

[VincentMatts]

I dont really understand the Abby criticisms. Do i need to finish the game to "get it"?

 

[Azurro]

That guy eats 4000 calories just for breakfast most probably

That's what I was going to say. I think the Rock eats like 9000 calories per day or something crazy like that.

 

[GC_DALBEN]

I like abby muscles, makes a VERY fun combat, better than Ellie in this regard, i still think the game is a 6,5/10.

 

[Hal.]

All the Abby fans in here like:





Imo AC Odyssey Cassandra has the peak performance female body.

 

[GeorgPrime]

One of the greatest video game characters from one of the greatest video games ever. Not a sex symbol. Just a bad ass.

Mods delete if you'd like. I'd argue this post is no more low effort than the excuses or rather accusations of why people don't like Abby.

Big Boss is a great character.

Abby is just a shitty character on steroids that looks like "Shayna Bazler"

 

[A.Romero]

That’s the irony.

The same people who accuse others of being sexist because they design sexy female characters, are now doing their own third wave feminism porn version and can’t stand that people mock and criticize the obvious agenda behind the design of those characters.

Every single girl in the world of TLOU has a third wave feminism approved design. Somehow, hot sexy girls have dissappeared from the face of earth and all the women are strong independent that need no men. And you have badass lesbians who face bigot sandwiches, little trans kids who face religious oppression, super muscular women who have to kill the white male protagonist, badass pregnant women who don’t need the opinion of the father and so many other feminist fanservice.

They are totally entitled to do the game the way the want, but after being the ones calling out other devs for their female designs, now it’s so hypocrytical that they can’t take a criticism on theirs.

Yeah, it's ironic.

That's why I think it's a good time to take the high ground and break the cycle. It's a powerful argument for the future: We all have our preferences and it's nice for everyone to be able to enjoy what they like.

At the end I think there is space for everything in the market.

 

[trapanesenyc]

So why do people hate abby again. Simply because she has flat tits and slightly bulk? Because real women don’t look like that?

You think this community goes to the gym often enough to see woman like that? I'm going to but 500$ on probably not.

 

[MMaRsu]

Maybe its because her character looks like shit

 

[Rikoi]

You think this community goes to the gym often enough to see woman like that? I'm going to but 500$ on probably not.

Most gyms don't have women like that. Yes I went to different gyms for 10 years.
Women want to be slim and they HATE building muscles, most women will tell their trainer "I don't want to become huge with muscles", as if that's an easy thing to achieve.
They will also train their lower body (lots of squats) much more ignoring the upper body (arms especially).

 

[jigglet]

I might get shit from this but; is it wrong to want an aesthetically pleasing character? Should I feel bad for admiring a beautiful woman?

Don't get me wrong, I don't want a game full of models. I've criticised the shit out of Final Fantasy for years because I feel like their characters are always too "beautiful". Too perfect. I always wanted to see some gruff personas, more "regular" characters with a touch of ugly. But I think TLOU2 pushes it a bit too far in the opposite direction.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Honestly I let physical appearance be a part of my judgment of her character, I do it for all characters and yes on occasion her arm size/breast size is a bit much, but I'd really only slightly tweak both things and neither is a deal breaker for me. She's got a very pretty face and her general build is actually fine by me, I like the idea of you stomping zombies as this brick shithouse badass. Once you get into the logistics of how likely is it for a woman to look this way in that setting you put me to sleep because that sort of thing doesn't matter to me any more than the characters in The Walking Dead having sparkling white teeth all the time.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Most gyms don't have women like that. Yes I went to different gyms for 10 years.
Women want to be slim and they HATE building muscles, most women will tell their trainer "I don't want to become huge with muscles", as if that's an easy thing to achieve.
They will also train their lower body (lots of squats) much more ignoring the upper body (arms especially).

Yeah women are stupid. They can't normally (without roids) get "built" like men. The muscle they build is feminine.

 

[tsumake]

It seems like this character is symbolic of the game’s intentions - wanting to be grounded and “realistic” yet also expressing their worldview regardless of that verisimilitude.

If this game were more stylized, then people wouldn’t take issue with the character.

For those mocking people’s masculinity for criticizing the design, I invite you to show pictures of your Olympian ladies. Be proud!

 

[Mochilador]

Why are you lying to me, Musky? The journous already told me there are no girls with muscles in video games because gamers would boycott it . Neil Druckmann is the only person able to take that risk....
Oh, wait. Nevermind.

Also I want Chun to choke me with those thighs

Goddamn it.

 

[cash_longfellow]

Insecurity caused by the fact she has bigger arms than 90% of the male posters on neogaf dot com

I am unsure about this...you do know what the Male posters on Neogaf do on the internet when they aren't on Neogaf, right?

 

[GymWolf]

You think this community goes to the gym often enough to see woman like that? I'm going to but 500$ on probably not.

I don't know what is the situation in the usa, maybe you have a more common use of steroids or people train in a far more serious way, but here in italy i trained in at least 5 different gyms for more than 10 years and i never saw anything similar to abby, i saw some muscular women but they were still more feminine than hulk builded.
A girl with that body would be laughed at here where i live, it's sad for female bodybuilders or just female who want to look very muscular but it is true.

 

[GymWolf]

Most gyms don't have women like that. Yes I went to different gyms for 10 years.
Women want to be slim and they HATE building muscles, most women will tell their trainer "I don't want to become huge with muscles", as if that's an easy thing to achieve.
They will also train their lower body (lots of squats) much more ignoring the upper body (arms especially).

 

[GlockSaint]

Is this a joke? The boss is no where near the Olympia level body of abby. That being said i like abby's design, better than the usual slim, fast and agile take most female characters have.

I think most people have a problem with the character itself being shoehorned in the story and the game trying so hard for you to like or emphasize with her.

 

[xrnzaaas]

People would still hate Abby if she was played by a much more feminine looking character. Probably less depending on the level of her hotness, but they'd still hate her for what she did and how Naughty Dog was trying whatever they could to show her good side.

 

[Fbh]

I'm only halfway through the game so my opinion might change a lot by the end of it.
But so far she is just unlikable as a character, unattractive (at least I don't like women who are built like a tank), does some spoilery stuff in the story that maker her easy to hate and then she turns out to be a much bigger part of the game than any of the marketing seemed to indicate.

Some people do seem to be obsesses with her musculature but at least from what I've played, reducing every criticisms of the character to "you just don't like her because she is muscular" seems unfair.
Let's not forget that Raiden, a white straight male character, was hated by many too in MGS2 for similar reasons.

 

[Esppiral]

I don't get the drama there are women of every type and shape and in this age of tolerance and acceptance threads like this surprise me, I do see a lot of hypocrisy

 

[Vaelka]

I think that people are choosing to get outraged over a handful of comments and are overreacting quite a lot.
You're literally always going to have people bitching about your character whether they have muscles like Abby, are chubby, if they're skinny or if they have big boobs ( some people are bitching about big boobs while complaining about people bitching about Abby. They don't see the irony there? ).
It's the same with one comment in a comment section of a hundred saying that a characters face looks too manly. Is it really worth getting worked up about? Most people doing that are probably honestly doing it because they know that it makes people mad.

I am also wondering where all of these people outraged about this are when artists get harassed or insulted because their character is sexualized. I'd take it a bit more seriously perhaps if people were actually consistent about this.
People are EXTREMELY insulting about sexualized art in some places including artstation at times, I've seen a lot of artists basically get chased off of reddit before because people have such strong reactions against pretty tame stuff sometimes.
But some guy said he didn't like Abby and suddenly it's this huge problem and all of these artists get involved?

In the end of the day it's not worth getting as worked up about as people are. It almost feels a bit like people are trying to control the discussion surrounding the game, I am wondering if the game had been better received by audiences if this would even have become a thing at all.
A lot of people are also just assuming that the reason why some don't like Abby's design is because she's not an '' anime tiddy girl '' which is pretty childish imo.
I don't think that the reason why some people that actually are bad don't like Abby is because they're horny and just want '' anime tiddies '', I think that it has more to do with just being bigoted and insecure. Who the fuck actually expects a sexy character in fucking TLOU2? I mean cmon...
The whole '' you just want tiddies '' argument is just really bad faith and I think indicative of people being way too consumed by the culture war.
And it also ignores the hundreds of artists and commenters who are very clearly into sexualized art who are supportive of the depiction of Abby.

Most gyms don't have women like that. Yes I went to different gyms for 10 years.
Women want to be slim and they HATE building muscles, most women will tell their trainer "I don't want to become huge with muscles", as if that's an easy thing to achieve.
They will also train their lower body (lots of squats) much more ignoring the upper body (arms especially).

I dunno where you live, but where I live it's probably 70% men and 30% women at the gym.
It's true to some extent tho that I don't think that most women want to get muscular because they think that it's ugly, not saying that it is just what I think that most women think.
With that said tho I don't think that it matters so much here tho, Abby can be the exception it's fine.

Edit: There really are way more muscular female characters than people seem to think too.
I am playing Borderlands 3 right now and Amara is muscular and no one had a problem with that ( she's also black, so most bigots would hate her even more right? ).

I think that this has everything to do with the game itself rather than Abby and her muscles. And a lot of people see Abby as one of the reasons why they didn't like the game because she was the new playable character so they're just lashing out at her.
If this was really about muscles then people would get outraged at the other characters too that are muscley women but they don't.

 

[Gp1]

 

[Cactuarman]

I can't seem to figure out what this thread debunks.

I've learned that people like The Boss (noted). Other muscular characters exist that people like (cool). And that not everyone who dislikes Abby dislikes her because of her physique (fair).

But it doesn't really seem like it can be debated that at least some people had a problem with Abby's muscles. See: Naughty Dog made female characters less feminine to be trans friendly (No Spoilers)

Totally cool if no one in this thread dislikes her for that reason but I still don't understand what this thread is saying. Or is it just a way to discuss other muscular female characters?

Edit: Also When will female video game characters go back to resembling females?

 

[Casanova]

The story mentioned multiple times that this was defining feature for Abby. People have all sorts of defining features (video game characters especially). Sometimes - quite often really - female video game characters have boobs encompassing half their body mass. It doesn't make it "pushing the straight agenda", does it? LOL. She is clearly a special character who happens to have defining features, her muscles, and that is totally fine. People are really skilled at masking weird misogyny - turns out, when you get shamed for it you get really good at concealing it in whatever way protects your own ego. She is a woman with muscles as one of her defining geatures - and a lot of people are upset by it, clearly. Just look at the responses to this thread. Admit it, and get over it. Alternatively, don't buy the god damn game. These conversations are so fucking old and tired.

 

[Vaelka]

I can't seem to figure out what this thread debunks.

I've learned that people like The Boss (noted). Other muscular characters exist that people like (cool). And that not everyone who dislikes Abby dislikes her because of her physique (fair).

But it doesn't really seem like it can be debated that at least some people had a problem with Abby's muscles. See: Naughty Dog made female characters less feminine to be trans friendly (No Spoilers)

Totally cool if no one in this thread dislikes her for that reason but I still don't understand what this thread is saying. Or is it just a way to discuss other muscular female characters?

Edit: Also When will female video game characters go back to resembling females?

The thing is tho that '' some people '' will quite literally have a problem with ANYTHING.
Why is it a problem that people are getting worked up about now tho?

Sometimes - quite often really - female video game characters have boobs encompassing half their body mass.

I mean cmon tho...
That's not true at all.
If anything the overwhelming majority of devs are trying to stay away from large boobs.

Are we still pretending like sexualization is some kind of a common thing in games? Especially in the Western market.
It's just not true, games like that are very rare and usually smaller or more niche titles.
In Japanese games it's a bit more common, but in Western games what characters exactly?

And even in Japanese games the two characters people jump to are Ivy and the Sorceress in Dragons Crown.
How many other characters like them can you actually think about? And how many thousands of female characters are there? Women like those do exist, is two of them existing in games really a problem?

 

[trapanesenyc]

Most gyms don't have women like that. Yes I went to different gyms for 10 years.
Women want to be slim and they HATE building muscles, most women will tell their trainer "I don't want to become huge with muscles", as if that's an easy thing to achieve.
They will also train their lower body (lots of squats) much more ignoring the upper body (arms especially).

This is fully anecdotal but at least when I go to the gym (I'm about a 6 year vet) I see one or two woman with similar build to Abby because like men, achieving that look isn't just about being attractive but its an accomplishment. Lets be honest, even the men who get super buff do it for the praise of other gym members and the work out community. But you're not wrong about most woman not wanting to be Abby size, but most men also not trying to be pro body builder level size. Abby's size is also apart of her character arc.

 

[trapanesenyc]

I don't know what is the situation in the usa, maybe you have a more common use of steroids or people train in a far more serious way, but here in italy i trained in at least 5 different gyms for more than 10 years and i never saw anything similar to abby, i saw some muscular women but they were still more feminine than hulk builded.
A girl with that body would be laughed at here where i live, it's sad for female bodybuilders or just female who want to look very muscular but it is true.

Sounds more like a social problem there than anything if you being laughed at for achieving a tough goal.

 

[GymWolf]

Sounds more like a social problem there than anything if you being laughed at for achieving a tough goal.

Call it what you want, this is the reality, except for people who pay the bills doing bodybuilding stuff, female usually don't want to get buffed and it is very rare to see a woman with abby's build in normal gyms.

Of course i'm not saying that they don't exist and i'm not even against abby, except for the slight sillyness i love having a female joel in the game, you can check my post history in the spoiler topic where i was the only one thrilled to play with her instead of the skinny brat

 

[Casanova]

I mean cmon tho...
That's not true at all.
If anything the overwhelming majority of devs are trying to stay away from large boobs.

Are we still pretending like sexualization is some kind of a common thing in games? Especially in the Western market.
It's just not true, games like that are very rare and usually smaller or more niche titles.
In Japanese games it's a bit more common, but in Western games what characters exactly?

And even in Western games the two characters people jump to are Ivy and the Sorceress in Dragons Crown.
How many other characters lik them can you actually think about? And how many thousands of female characters are there? Women like those do exist, is two of them existing in games really a problem?

You cannot possibly be that dense. Here's just a few examples, and it's rampant in many games. Check out female characters in Mortal Kombat, League, etc. https://www.ranker.com/list/video-game-characters-big-boobs/meme-dude

I mean, it's common fucking sense. Being gay, maybe I noticed these things earlier and when I first started playing video games that these are not real depictions of most women. It's just a weird fantasy (which, albeit, video games are supposed to be), but you can't deny that they are oversexualized. I literally remember growing up all my friends would talk about the breast sizes of women in the games we would play. It's no secret.

Just throwing this out there, but you really believe that if dicks could go balls-out in video games that most hypermasculine men wouldn't have absolute giant bones? Yeah right. It's entertainment. Look at the porn industry.

 

[Jon Neu]

I don't know what is the situation in the usa, maybe you have a more common use of steroids or people train in a far more serious way, but here in italy i trained in at least 5 different gyms for more than 10 years and i never saw anything similar to abby, i saw some muscular women but they were still more feminine than hulk builded.
A girl with that body would be laughed at here where i live, it's sad for female bodybuilders or just female who want to look very muscular but it is true.

Same here in Barcelona. I have literally never seen a girl like Abby. 98% of them go for the instagram model type of body: tonified, thin and big ass.

It’s so funny watching girls do like 12 butt exercises in a row.

you can't deny that they are oversexualized.

Have you ever go out?

Because girls IRL dress just as scantily or even more than what you can see in a videogame.

Women love to “oversexualize” (whatever that means) themselves, they love the attention.