Instead of continuing Max's story, why not have a game starring Mona? She does live in Max Payne 2's alternate ending, after all. Playing as someone other than Max also open up the door for further gameplay changes - different character, different style of play. Makes sense to me.
Instead of continuing Max's story, why not have a game starring Mona? She does live in Max Payne 2's alternate ending, after all. Playing as someone other than Max also open up the door for further gameplay changes - different character, different style of play. Makes sense to me.
They were all dead. The final gunshot was an exclamation mark to everything that had led to this point. I released my finger from the trigger. And then it was all over.The storm seemed to lose its frenzy. The ragged clouds gave way to the stars above. A bit closer to Heaven.
The weather throughout the game parallels Max's anger. Notice how the storm dissipates after he kills Horne. Then:
Woden was there in the crowd, standing by the sidelines. It wouldn't be over till the man with the patch would say so. He'd say the right words. I knew he would. He'd better. Woden grinned smugly. It was the grin of a winner. That made two of us.
Again, this line seems to suggest he was pretty happy with getting his revenge. It has closure and no indication that he would slip back like he did in Max Payne 2.
Now, MP3 has some lines that are a bit shit (like the one you mentioned), but even Lake's stuff is full of narmy purple prose, particularly in MP1. He takes the mickey out of it during Max Payne 2:
Dick Justice: The rain was comin' down like all the angels in heaven decided to take a piss at the same time. When you're in a situation like mine, you can only think in metaphors.
Max Payne 3 is different from the other two, sure. Rightly so too. If Houser had tried to emulate Lake (one of gaming's most unique writers) he would've failed miserably, so instead they went for a more revisionist take; the neo-noir to Lake's Pulp (MP1) and Classic (MP2) Noir takes.
Yes, some of the writing is a bit naff in places (as is a staple for the series) but it also has some of the best lines. For instance:
Sums up Max's situation, how he is destined to go through these cycles of violence forever. Good thing too because it's my favourite series
...and this:
So I guess I'd become what they wanted me to be, a killer. Some rent-a-clown with a gun who puts holes in other bad guys. Well that's what they had paid for, so in the end that's what they got. Say what you want about Americans but we understand capitalism. You buy yourself a product and you get what you pay for, and these chumps had paid for some angry gringo without the sensibilities to know right from wrong. Here I was about to execute this poor bastard like some dime store angel of death and I realized they were correct, I wouldn't know right from wrong if one of them was helping the poor and the other was banging my sister...
It's easy to selectively pick out the worst lines from any game and then claim it is badly written. Where Max Payne 3 actually falls short is in it's rather confused plotting. Then again, noir classic 'The Big Sleep' had a murder that even Chandler couldn't account for...
sorry dude but i don't think that's brilliant at all
i remember that part from the game, and to me it just felt crass in that rockstarish way i dislike so much
i do agree it's a good idea for rockstar to try and do their own thing. there's no point in trying to copy sam lake, it's never gonna feel right.
but on the other hand, and this is an issue with mine with pretty much all of dan houser's writing is that they just turned max and everything around him into a rockstar story. you like max in mp1 and mp2. you hate him in mp3. he was always pretty down on himself, but he was also funny and ironic and cool. no such luck in mp3, because those kind of people, the kind of people with pleasing traits are nonexistent in dan houser's mind. he's got a couple good ones in him, markedly gay tony and to a degree rdr (although the mexico portion of the game soured it completely to me), but his style of writing turned max into another pathetic rockstar brand character
and i don't like that at all
i feel like max payne without sam lake is nothing. i loved alan wake, like everything i wanted from max payne 3 was there. the real max payne 3 felt like bad fan fiction
i just pick that line because it's specially egregious. the rest of the game is consistently grotesque, you'd hate everyone in the game, max included, if the script could at least make you care about them a bit. the story makes no sense and if i can catch on that then it must be a special kind of terrible.
max payne 1&2's flowery metaphilosophical antics always felt like they were there on purpose, maybe not entirely so, but like sam lake just liked writing that way. mp3 felt like the writers actually thought they were getting into deep shit. well it was shit alright lol
edit: i use "strong words" cos i feel this way about the series. since we're just talking story stuff there's a lot about this that is subjective so i mean nothing wrong to you or whoever when i think this game's story is awful or whatever. i mean i do believe it's objectively badly written, but the dressing on top might be just me hating on rockstar
I understand it too, especially after your one thread from a while ago.
Only thing is, everything you had a problem with was a matter of personal preference rather than assessing the game in terms of how well it does what it attempts to.
And MP3 comes the closest to achieving that out of any game of its type, even with it's story and cutscene problems. MP and MP2 do not.
Opinions do come from personal preference sometimes. It also helps that the problems I had with MP 3 were shared by other people too. In a tiny example, someone just said a "Euphoria for the bad guys but not on Max please", so people still find the same grievances I had.
What was the game attempting to do that it did so well? Couldn't be the story or cutscene stuff which you also agree was a problem rather than done well. Obviously, it wasn't to play the game mostly with shoot-dodging in non-cramped levels which was a thing previous MP games supported. Seamless transition from cutscene to gameplay that changed your weapon to the worst one mid-cutscene? Hmm. Visible bullet wounds? Nah, that's just a tiny thing to pin a game's goals of doing so well. I didn't follow developer interviews or check their design documents to find out what they were attempting to do and apparently did so well, so I must have missed the memo.
In MP1 he was a caricature. He doesn't have any kind of character arc. He was basically an amalgamation of action hero tropes, just like the game itself, so he isn't really a character yet.
In MP2 he was an absolute asshole. Check out the conversations between him and Mona when they are "on the job", so to speak, at the apartment block and the construction site. Seriously, the guy is a dick, especially to Mona, and I say that as a man who ranks MP2 as one of the best games of all time. Christ, Vlad even takes the mickey out of how dour he is:
What the fuck is wrong with you, Max?! Why don't you just die?! You hate life, you're miserable all the time, afraid to enjoy yourself even a little. Face it, you might as well be dead already. Do yourself a favor, give up!
edit: i use "strong words" cos i feel this way about the series. since we're just talking story stuff there's a lot about this that is subjective so i mean nothing wrong to you or whoever when i think this game's story is awful or whatever. i mean i do believe it's objectively badly written, but the dressing on top might be just me hating on rockstar
I think that the plotting in MP3 is pretty poor (as I said earlier), I just think the dialogue and VO are better than a lot of people give it credit for. I do think most of the hate is because it is R* though and they're very much the developers most people love to hate.
guess it's agree to disagree cos i feel the exact opposite about mp3 max :/
and like i wrote on my edit, i both don't like the writing and think it's bad
edit: i should probably play mp2 again tho. i've played mp1 routinely through the years since it's my favorite in the series but mp2 never lived up to mp1 to me. if anything i should play it because it's still a pretty fucking awesome game
edit on your edit : i personally don't hate rockstar, i actually liked gta 4 more than most people, loved gay tony, loved the warriors and loved everything about rdr that isn't mexico and i'm excited about finally playing gta 5 if they decide to release it on pc. i just really really dislike the misanthropic way they write their characters.
Opinions do come from personal preference sometimes. It also helps that the problems I had with MP 3 were shared by other people too. In a tiny example, someone just said a "Euphoria for the bad guys but not on Max please", so people still find the same grievances I had.
The rhythm of the game is different from previous installments. It has always been different between games. You can't play MP2 like you played MP1, the same goes for MP3:
MP1 required you to take out as many mooks with the limited BT you had. You had to do some kills in normal time to refill the meter and get the advantage of BT, if I recall correctly.
This staggered rhythm was addressed in MP2 (the best of the bunch) which pushed players to stay in bullet time by essentially rewarding them with more and slower BT for getting head-shots, even whilst they were using it. This gave us a very smooth bullet-time heavy experience that hasn't been bested by any other game, let alone MP3.
MP3 is a different kind of rhythm again: Use bullet-time to take out mooks, shoot-dodge into cover, recover your bullet-time and plan your next step. When you get that rhythm it is a lot of fun, not quite MP2 levels sure, but you still get the sense that you are choreographing your own bullet ballet.
edit: i should probably play mp2 again tho. i've played mp1 routinely through the years since it's my favorite in the series but mp2 never lived up to mp1 to me. if anything i should play it because it's still a pretty fucking awesome game
Ah. For me it's head and shoulders above MP1: Much tighter in every respect, better bullet-time, much better rhythm of play, less ridiculous story (although still ridiculous ).
edit on your edit : i personally don't hate rockstar, i actually liked gta 4 more than most people, loved gay tony, loved the warriors and loved everything about rdr that isn't mexico and i'm excited about finally playing gta 5 if they decide to release it on pc. i just really really dislike the misanthropic way they write their characters.
I already felt like MP3 was unnecessary since the ending to MP2 was perfect (imho). Yeah I know about the "Max Payne's journey into the night will continue" thing but still. It was a perfect ending if you played on hard. MP3 added nothing to the Max Payne Story. Maybe in MP4 you just wake up, realise that MP3 was a dream and then it turns out MP4 is just a remake of MP2
Ah. For me it's head and shoulders above MP1: Much tighter in every respect, better bullet-time, much better rhythm of play, less ridiculous story (although still ridiculous ).
yea the mp1 > mp2 for me is just preference. i very much enjoyed the story progression of mp1 better, it was less personal and more about weird and dumb conspiracies. i liked that more
yea the mp1 > mp2 for me is just preference. i very much enjoyed the story progression of mp1 better, it was less personal and more about weird and dumb conspiracies. i liked that more
MP3 was really good, it was not the same game as 1+2 but it was more grown up, Max moved out of the city, and guess what? It's Sunny out there! However he still sees it all through his personal cloud of Doom.
My wife watched me play Max Payne through like it was a film and absolutely loved the writing the imagery and the action.
If I was to reboot it, I would pit him in a broadly similar role, a fixer who has the experience to get stuff done and the delicacy to make sure that it is done properly.
Set it in Russia, Sweden, and a couple of warzones as well.
i'd play a chill max payne 4 in which max retired so he just eats icecream and cleans up his guns, watches some lords and ladies on tv, hangs around with some friends from the nypd and otherwise has a swell time
kind of like my idea for duke nukem forever but less actual parody and more random fanservice
i'd play a chill max payne 4 in which max retired so he just eats icecream and cleans up his guns, watches some lords and ladies on tv, hangs around with some friends from the nypd and otherwise has a swell time
kind of like my idea for duke nukem forever but less actual parody and more random fanservice
I would however have the fourth Max Payne not star him but his son. However, I'm not sure there is a logical way to introduce that considering that
Mona Sax died unless the Dead On Arrival ending would be canon and they would presumably get married and have a child together.
Basically have the story be this new "Max Payne" journey to find out who his parents were while he investigates crimes that are tied with a new Aesir Corporation.
Everything old is new again but with modern gameplay, story, and characterization.
It was as neccessary as a season two in a TV series can be. You can look at MP1 as a complete ending but Max Payne 2 at least expanded the story and the characters from the first one, added a new twist on the death of Max's wife and then ends in a satisfying way. Max Payne 3 on the other hand had absolutely nothing to do with any known characters or the story told in MP1/2 (I think Mona was mentioned once or so?). Granted MP2 ended in a way that was very hard to follow up (nearly every character besides Max and Mona die) but that's why I think MP3 is unneccessary.
It was as neccessary as a season two in a TV series can be. You can look at MP1 as a complete ending but Max Payne 2 at least expanded the story and the characters from the first one, added a new twist on the death of Max's wife and then ends in a satisfying way. Max Payne 3 on the other hand had absolutely nothing to do with any known characters or the story told in MP1/2 (I think Mona was mentioned once or so?). Granted MP2 ended in a way that was very hard to follow up (nearly every character besides Max and Mona die) but that's why I think MP3 is unneccessary.
Personally, I wouldn't have wanted them to continue on because, as you say, the previous arc ended so well. That Max goes off and gets involved in "lesser mysteries, other people's crimes", is pretty true to his character.
I think MP3 expands upon the fallout of Max's past on his present state of mind. The game's plot is pretty weak, granted, but as character study of a man suffering from what amounts to be PTSD from murdering thousands of people and seeing his wife and child killed, I think it's a brilliant take on the character: what would a man who has been through all the shit he has actually be like?
I think the choice of location was especially inspired: Noir York City was his town, a place where the weather was sympathetic to his cause, the streets were a place he knew, the dark a shield against his enemies. In Brazil it's the total opposite: a place that is achingly colourful and searingly bright, where he is completely alienated in every respect.
Man, I'd love to see him now as an old man, wandering from town to town... you know, like Caine in Kung Fu: walk from place to place, meet people, get into adventures.
I had two thoughts.
1. I should start up Max Payne 3 again, those gunfights can be pretty cool.
2. Mundane unskippable cutscenes everywhere, mostly kind of short, tight encounters. I should not.
Rockstar should consider those things. And hire Shane Black.
Thinking about it, the direction I'd want to take it, it would no longer be Max Payne. So, I guess I don't want another Max Payne. But rather a spiritual sequel that takes the slow-mo action and dramatic acrobatics further. I was a big fan of the Max Payne mods, found them much more fun to play around with than the vanilla game. So why not make that the vanilla game. Have the challenge be more about creating cool action scenes than hiding behind things until your health regens or whatever.
MP3 was really good, it was not the same game as 1+2 but it was more grown up, Max moved out of the city, and guess what? It's Sunny out there! However he still sees it all through his personal cloud of Doom.
My wife watched me play Max Payne through like it was a film and absolutely loved the writing the imagery and the action.
If I was to reboot it, I would pit him in a broadly similar role, a fixer who has the experience to get stuff done and the delicacy to make sure that it is done properly.
Set it in Russia, Sweden, and a couple of warzones as well.
I believe a reboot at this time would be the best decision. I feel as though all the loose ends were tied and Max deserves some rest. That being said not going to cry if Max comes back.
My recommendations going forward:
They need to have a balance of set pieces and dynamic fire fights to help add some replay value. A lot of people feel like they got cheesed out on some fire fights because they didn't know enemy spawn locations. I can understand this as a player with a lot of experience in the game, it also doesn't help when you memorize everything and can just wreck house.
The cover system you really only needed to use in certain portions of the game and I felt like it didn't need to be in the game. The game is strongest when you need to think fast, let your reflexes kick in and you are in the groove going guns blazing, and constantly moving in a firefight is a lot of fun as well.
I would really like it to stay a noire story.
I would like to keep the weight and heaviness of the character. Some may disagree but I really liked it.
The weapons feel about right in Max Payne 3 with the balance of using a primary then switching to dual wielding with a pistol and SMG.
I would really love a co-op mode side story. It would be a lot of fun working together with my best friend or friends. Please dont add horde and survival waves they are old try something new and innovative. Make them a bit random example: l4d2 director throwing some curve balls.
One mechanic that I loathed is last stand it needs to be changed or gone in the next iteration.You already lose all of your bullet time which is fair and the only benefit is you dont die but recover slightly more health, than if you were to use some pills. The worst offender is: "So I got shot and I am about to die and the enemy that shot me is in such an angle or in cover that I cannot hit him. WTF!" It sucks plain and simple. There are ways to fix the mechanic for example: Hitman Blood money had a similar mechanic for a last chance where you needed to head shot three enemies but could still move.
I want the game to be difficult. Dont make bullet time more overpowered than necessary. I dont want superman Max Payne 2 bullet time.
Most of all just an adrenaline rushed fun and memorable experience. I am sure everyone has their favorite memorable fire fights in the Max Payne series please continue this.
I want to talk about Max Payne 3 a little. First of all, in my opinion, the game has the worst story/writing of the 3, but it has the best gameplay. Now I won't say that the story/writting is utter garbage as others might say. There were definitely so good points.
I'll throw in a few lines here -
It's a shame this one only comes up if you break stealth in the level Alive if Not Exactly Well because it would have felt right at home in the first two games -
"I kept moving toward the signs of life, rubbing them out as I went along."
The writing in the opening is good as well,
"If I'm honest, I just got kinda bored of boozin'. I mean once in a while, not all the time."
The entire opening scene is great, really shows the condition Max is in, I think it's one of the best scenes in the series.
At a party with - "The kind of people who wind up on the cover of a glossy magazine or in a body bag, depending on how their luck runs."
I thought most of the plot with the Branco family was good. Rodrigo being the oldest son has most of the money, Victor wants the money, and is trying to win an election. By
Killing Rodrigo
Victor can get the money and the sympathy vote. Where it really falls apart is him trying to frame Max for it. It makes no sense to frame an American for this. They aren't trying to spark some international conflict, and if the frame had succeeded the people in Brazil wouldn't have said - "Oh he's that cop from New York who killed all those people, that explains it." Because 99.9% of people in Brazil have no idea who Max is. It would have made much more sense for Victor to frame someone from the favela, to justify the U.F.E. raids, and turn the public against the people in the favela.
Oddly, you could have set the game in New York, with a New York political family framing Max and it would have worked fine... This part really blows my mind.
Now, for Max's character in the third game, I could see him slipping back into depression after being alone all those years, but the two things I really disagree with is Max's unnecessary swearing and the way he talks about women. Now some might attribute this to his deteriorated state, but it still doesn't fit to me.
Max's F-bombs in 1 and 2: 0
Max's F-bombs in 3: 50+
(Didn't actually count)
Now Houser wrote Red Dead Redemption which is one of my favorite games of all time, and I don't remember there being that many F-bombs in that game, especially from Marston. Of course there are a lot more in GTAV but you expect it there, but not in Max Payne.
Now Max regarding women: In the first two games he seems very respectful of women, he isn't some womanizer talking about getting some, and then after he's with Mona very briefly he speaks about how he feels like he's cheated on his wife.
Now in 3: In the Panama level he says his first job with Passos was a wedding and adds that it was, "Money for banging waitresses."
In the opening/closing scenes with Becker, "I wouldn't know right from wrong if one of them was helping the poor and the other was banging my sister." Max doesn't even have a sister...
And then the most mind boggling of all he lets Serrano go after
Serrano executes Fabiana (a completely innocent woman) right in front of him.
And later says he kind of hopes Serrano made it out of the war-zone alive... Way out of character regarding Max's history with women.
So based on reading some ideas and combining them with mine, I think this would be a pretty good story for MP4:
Winterson's son seeks revenge on Max. He somehow orchestrates some of the events in MP3 and uses Passos (who made up knowing Max in the police academy) to persuade Max to join him in hopes of Max getting killed. Max lives and Passos feels some guilt as he wasn't really a bad guy, maybe he was just in a bad place at the time, but that is why he seemed to be so absent during MP3, hoping Max would just get himself killed. Passos distances himself from Max and runs off with his girl, but Winterson's son takes Passos's girl hostage and forces him to try to kill Max. Meanwhile, Max finds out Mona is alive (or maybe she contacts him about Passos/Winterson's son) and they kill some unrelated bad guys after Mona or something before Passos and Winterson's son's bad guys attack them like in the 2nd half of the game. It should end with some real death to actually end the series. Max is old and he shouldn't survive all of this. Would prefer most of this to be set outside of the U.S. but in a gloomy setting similar to NYC in the first 2 games. The game ends with Max and everybody he has known that was still alive dead (basically just Mona and Passos and Passos's girl).
This. Max's story ended with MP2. But, if they HAD to make another MP game I'd give it back to Remedy. As far as the possible story:
-It could go back to NY/NJ, but really it could be set anywhere such as Brazil.
-Mona Sax would have died at the end of MP2.
-Max would have retired from the NYPD and taken up a job of a PI. He probably wouldn't even carry a gun at the start because after the incidents of MP 1 and 2 he's probably done with killing and shooting.
-A distraught femme fatal walks into Max's office classic noir style, she wants Max to investigate the disappearance of her daughter, she's a single mother. The police have all given up hope and believe she is dead, the mother believes otherwise and wants Max to investigate.Obviously, he's reluctant at first, this case hits to close to home but he eventually accepts it anyway.
-The game involves Max slowly uncovering the mystery of this little girl's disappearance which of course leads to a broader conspiracy, for one he begins to learn early on that she's not the only child to disappear mysteriously in the city.
-The case will push Max to his mental limit as it brings up all his bad memories and past failures. In the end, he uncovers the mystery, and saves all the children including the little girl. And then, at the very end Max either dies having saved the girl or ends up with the mom and the little girl finally getting the family he was robbed all those years ago.
This. Max's story ended with MP2. But, if they HAD to make another MP game I'd give it back to Remedy. As far as the possible story:
-It could go back to NY/NJ, but really it could be set anywhere such as Brazil.
-Mona Sax would have died at the end of MP2.
-Max would have retired from the NYPD and taken up a job of a PI. He probably wouldn't even carry a gun at the start because after the incidents of MP 1 and 2 he's probably done with killing and shooting.
-A distraught femme fatal walks into Max's office classic noir style, she wants Max to investigate the disappearance of her daughter, she's a single mother. The police have all given up hope and believe she is dead, the mother believes otherwise and wants Max to investigate.Obviously, he's reluctant at first, this case hits to close to home but he eventually accepts it anyway.
-The game involves Max slowly uncovering the mystery of this little girl's disappearance which of course leads to a broader conspiracy, for one he begins to learn early on that she's not the only child to disappear mysteriously in the city.
-The case will push Max to his mental limit as it brings up all his bad memories and past failures. In the end, he uncovers the mystery, and saves all the children including the little girl. And then, at the very end Max either dies having saved the girl or ends up with the mom and the little girl finally getting the family he was robbed all those years ago.
I like the concept of this idea. Just would prefer to have it done in a way that forces Max to take action, instead of him willingly take on a job like that.
Opinions do come from personal preference sometimes. It also helps that the problems I had with MP 3 were shared by other people too. In a tiny example, someone just said a "Euphoria for the bad guys but not on Max please", so people still find the same grievances I had.
What was the game attempting to do that it did so well? Couldn't be the story or cutscene stuff which you also agree was a problem rather than done well. Obviously, it wasn't to play the game mostly with shoot-dodging in non-cramped levels which was a thing previous MP games supported. Seamless transition from cutscene to gameplay that changed your weapon to the worst one mid-cutscene? Hmm. Visible bullet wounds? Nah, that's just a tiny thing to pin a game's goals of doing so well. I didn't follow developer interviews or check their design documents to find out what they were attempting to do and apparently did so well, so I must have missed the memo.
Since anything I'll say will have been said in that old thread, I'm going to try to avoid retreading old ground in this post, at least. You say you didn't watch any pre-release material, so here are some videos from R*'s "Design and Technology" series for Max Payne 3. They're definitely designed to build hype about the product, but they do a decent job of laying out various aspects of the gameplay.
If the concepts shown and described in these videos excite you, then you'll find something to enjoy about the gameplay. Everything in these videos can and does happen during gameplay. If you're lukewarm on it, then you'll likely feel the same about the game itself. If you happen to really like what you see/hear in those videos, but you ended up not liking the game, that would be interesting and I'd like to specifically hear why, if that's the case.
Chances are, if none of that interests you about the core gameplay, then you won't like it. The smaller issues (automatically switching to one of the player's equipped handguns after cutscenes, the "last stand" feature putting the player in awkward spots that require shoulder-swapping the camera to get out of, Etc.) will seem much more glaring and less tolerable. The positives of the game will be harder to recognize if you personally don't like them, or if you have a preconception of what the game should be that differs from the way it is.
When it comes to whether a game is good or bad, you've got to look past your own preference and consider who the game is good or bad for, preferably without a slant in which you paint aspects of a game that you despise in a particular light. If you want a gritty arcadey-type shooter with a camera that really captures the feel of a artifact-filled handy-cam, Kane and Lynch 2 is for you. If you want a weghtless, fast twitch arena shooter, Quake is right up your alley, and so forth.
Certain aspects of design achieve different things. the aspects of Max Payne 3 are as they're presented in the above videos. That core gameplay is different from that of Max Payne and it's different from that of Max Payne 2. The kind of experience one gets from playing those games is different from Max Payne 3 and that it differs from those other games is not inherently bad for many. Not everyone wants to play a sequel, or threequel, because they want exactly what was offered in previous series entries. Some may have never liked the series, or were mildly interested, yet wanted something with the same core concept (e.g. third-person shooting) but vastly improved or changed.
Some people shared your grievances. Some didn't. I distinctly remember there being responses to your "diving into a wall" gif where people asked "what did you expect?" and questioned why you had a problem in a game with a consistent approach to physics. some brought up that you can still aim and shoot while tumbling back. Some shared your sentiment that that got in the way of enjoying the game while others said it was part of a risk-reward system that made gameplay more intense. By using presenting that feature in the game as being inherently bad, you give off a sense of naivete, as if you don't even consider what this aspect of the game could contribute to, or that there might be those who would really appreciate it.
Not that you have to, or anything. But if you care enough to rally against a game more than a year after playing it, some open-mindedness and some attempts to understand how it works will probably make discussions about it less frustrating.
DOA Xtreme Volleyball but with guns and a fat bald dude with a bad temper? SOLD! XD
Ah, right. I see what you're saying.
Personally, I wouldn't have wanted them to continue on because, as you say, the previous arc ended so well. That Max goes off and gets involved in "lesser mysteries, other people's crimes", is pretty true to his character.
I think MP3 expands upon the fallout of Max's past on his present state of mind. The game's plot is pretty weak, granted, but as character study of a man suffering from what amounts to be PTSD from murdering thousands of people and seeing his wife and child killed, I think it's a brilliant take on the character: what would a man who has been through all the shit he has actually be like?
I think the choice of location was especially inspired: Noir York City was his town, a place where the weather was sympathetic to his cause, the streets were a place he knew, the dark a shield against his enemies. In Brazil it's the total opposite: a place that is achingly colourful and searingly bright, where he is completely alienated in every respect.
Man, I'd love to see him now as an old man, wandering from town to town... you know, like Caine in Kung Fu: walk from place to place, meet people, get into adventures.
First off, I completely agree with just about everything you've said in this thread so far. I thought Max's characterization and dialog and was fantastically written in MP3, though the plot seemed to lose itself in a few places. I think the game gets a lot of hate from 'purists' BECAUSE it's R* and not Lake.
As for this quote, I'm glad you brought that up. The idea that Max could ever be okay after the second game, where the wounds from his emotional trauma are reopened and even more people as collateral are dragged into his misery to die, is just nonsense. He will be scarred.
Hell, my retired army father who did two tours in Vietnam took up being a private contractor in Iraq for seven and a half years straight after my parents got divorced. Someone like Max whose gone through so much life threatening, near death trauma is inevitably going to suffer the effects of PTSD. Regardless of what they tell themselves, they're going to feel drawn into combat zones as if they're supposed to be there. Having Max flee to a far away place and fight in a completely foreign and unfamiliar conflict is just about the only plot there could be for his character. The storyline and the supporting characters weren't perfect, but they nailed the setting, overall plot, and Max.
First off, I completely agree with just about everything you've said in this thread so far. I thought Max's characterization and dialog and was fantastically written in MP3, though the plot seemed to lose itself in a few places. I think the game gets a lot of hate from 'purists' BECAUSE it's R* and not Lake.
I think you nailed it. A lot of people don't like R* because they're R* and tend not to judge each on it's own merits. Sure, they had a heck of a game to follow up, but I love the direction they took it.
With regards to your Dad: that's incredible. Without any kind of experience myself and (hopefully) without speaking out of turn, I guess those kind of places and situations were the ones that made most sense to him.
I think you nailed it. A lot of people don't like R* because they're R* and tend not to judge each on it's own merits. Sure, they had a heck of a game to follow up, but I love the direction they took it.
Max Payne 3 is Noir. I'd go so far as to say more so than MP1.
I don't hate MP3's story and writing because "its' R*", I hate it because it is just plain goddamn horrible, which has a lot to do with Dan Houser being out of his element here. Nothing makes a lick of sense and the game has no central theme or purpose. I really hate having to repost this but I will anyway, it's my overly long blog post explaining just why MP3's writing fails:
I don't hate MP3's story and writing because "its' R*", I hate it because it is just plain goddamn horrible, which has a lot to do with Dan Houser being out of his element here. Nothing makes a lick of sense and the game has no central theme or purpose. I really hate having to repost this but I will anyway, it's my overly long blog post explaining just why MP3's writing fails:
Yeah, I've read it when you posted it before (three times, I think? You can't hate it that much XD). It has a number of excellent points, although you do seem to ignore the fact that MP1 ends pretty conclusively too, as I recall.
The plot is whiffy, granted. I won't deny that. I can't agree there is no theme though. I'm not gonna write an essay (I'm not a writer and simply don't have stamina for it), but as far as I see it, there are at least two I can think of off the top of my head:
1) There is a heavy emphasis on Max (The White Man) interfering in a foreign land. There are plenty of references to the whole White Man's Burden deal, culminating in his conversation with Neves on top of the Imperial Hotel. Obviously, this acts as a broad commentary on American Foreign policy (note his 'Dimestore Angel of Death' monologue).
2) Characters dealing with their past: Max is an example of what not to do; Rodrigo tries to make amends for the shitty things he's financed (see his final conversation with Max); Fabianna married into money to get away from hers; Passo changes his identity to get away from his failures etc.
I'd argue that family is another central theme (Passo's new one, Rodrigo and Victor's bitter one, Max's missing one), but I'd need to play through it again.
...and haha yes. MP3 is very much a noir story. I'm not sure how familiar you are with film noir/noir literature, but don't you think 'cynical outsider gets drawn into the machinations of a rich and powerful family where all is not what it seems' screams classic noir set-up?
MP1 has far more in common with Heroic Bloodshed Cinema than any straight Chandler-style noir (MP2 has the latter in spades). It's closer to Hardboiled's take on noir more than anything... Which isn't very noir at all.
Let him rest and enjoy his time in the sun . He has had far too much sadness and trouble in his life just to get caught up again where probably somebody he might care about will die like in all of his games.
I don't hate MP3's story and writing because "its' R*", I hate it because it is just plain goddamn horrible, which has a lot to do with Dan Houser being out of his element here. Nothing makes a lick of sense and the game has no central theme or purpose. I really hate having to repost this but I will anyway, it's my overly long blog post explaining just why MP3's writing fails:
Great article, I agree with pretty much every point. You mentioned you didn't know what Max was supposed to be framed for, I think Victor Branco's plan was to frame Max for Rodrigo's murder. But that still doesn't justify going all the way to Hoboken and dragging Max halfway down the world. That part doesn't make any sense at all. Framing a guy like Serrano would have served their purposes much better, helped Victor and Becker justify the U.F.E. raids.
It's a shame really because I feel like a few minor changes could have really set the story and character right and most Max Payne fans would have been happy with it. Cleaning Max's language up, giving his monologues some deeper meaning and dropping the bits about banging waitresses/STDs would have straightened out a lot of people's complaints. I thought his addiction to alcohol/painkillers was well played and I really like the plot point of a framed Max, who is a prime candidate, though its implementation is flawed.
MP3 should have been Max working as a security guard in a NYC building, (the Brazilian setting isn't wrong as far as noir goes, it just doesn't fit Max's fall-guy plot), hitting bars after-hours, he gets into a shootout with some bad guys at work, is fired for not sticking to his "observe and report" instructions. The shootout brings Max to the forefront of New York news once again, and he is afterward approached by Passos' character to work as a body guard for a NY political family which would serve the same role as the Brancos. Max takes the job. The character of Victor convinces a more grounded/dangerous Fabiana character to seduce Max. Max falls for her as she portrays herself as a tragic character who made the mistake of marrying for money. The Rodrigo character (her husband) is killed and Victor exposes Max's relationship with his wife along with his violent history as proof that Max killed him, thus creating a very believable frame on Max Payne. Max goes through most of the game not knowing the Fabiana character was in on the frame, taking Victor's security guards out as they come, uncovering Victor's shady deals, why he killed his brother, and then Max kills Victor and is reluctantly forced to kill a femme fatale Fabiana in self defense.
Maybe have that part take place in a hotel room, serve as the opening/closing scene though in the beginning they don't show you it's Fabiana's character, it just shows Max standing in a quiet hotel room.
"They were all dead. Their lies were spread out before me in dark, wet pools all over the city. The final, heart-breaking piece of the puzzle snapped into place, and then it was over."
Something like that, I'm no Sam Lake, just messing around. So then Max goes to L.A. and OP's story kicks in for MP4.
...and haha yes. MP3 is very much a noir story. I'm not sure how familiar you are with film noir/noir literature, but don't you think 'cynical outsider gets drawn into the machinations of a rich and powerful family where all is not what it seems' screams classic noir set-up?
MP1 has far more in common with Heroic Bloodshed Cinema than any straight Chandler-style noir (MP2 has the latter in spades). It's closer to Hardboiled's take on noir more than anything... Which isn't very noir at all.
Noir is pretty subjective in my opinion. There are several traits that, the more they are implemented in a work, the more noir it feels. Some of these are night/darkness/shadows as a visual cue, flawed/cynical protagonist, crime, a femme fatale, and usually a bad ending. A movie like Double Indemnity is about as noir as it gets in my opinion, as all these traits apply. The film version of The Big Sleep, while I do like it, doesn't feel as noir as Double Indemnity, or Chandler's novel. In the book Marlowe is left quite disillusioned and lonely, while in the movie Lauren Bacall's role is amplified and her and Bogie's word play make Marlowe seem like a happier guy than in the novel, especially in the end. The Big Lebowski is somewhat based on The Big Sleep and has noir aspects, but it doesn't really "feel" noir to me. A movie like The Asphalt Jungle doesn't really have a femme fatale in the sense of Double Indemnity or The Lady From Shanghai, but it still feels very noir.
In my opinion MP3 has some noir aspects but doesn't "feel" very noir. Yes, the frame is a noir set up, and I'll grant you that Max's character is much more cynical in the third game. In the first game he runs into the Finito brothers and after they attempt a clever pun Max says, "You guys are killing me, did you make that up yourself or did you get some wino downstairs to come up with it? Don't answer, rhetorical question." He says it rather playfully, almost as if he's having fun, almost a Marlowe-esque line. He makes a few more wisecracks throughout the first game and seems less cynical overall than in 3. But the first game also has a a femme fatale and a permanent night as a visual cue, so to me it "feels more noir."
Noir is pretty subjective in my opinion. There are several traits that, the more they are implemented in a work, the more noir it feels. Some of these are night/darkness/shadows as a visual cue, flawed/cynical protagonist, crime, a femme fatale, and usually a bad ending. A movie like Double Indemnity is about as noir as it gets in my opinion, as all these traits apply. The film version of The Big Sleep, while I do like it, doesn't feel as noir as Double Indemnity, or Chandler's novel. In the book Marlowe is left quite disillusioned and lonely, while in the movie Lauren Bacall's role is amplified and her and Bogie's word play make Marlowe seem like a happier guy than in the novel, especially in the end. The Big Lebowski is somewhat based on The Big Sleep and has noir aspects, but it doesn't really "feel" noir to me. A movie like The Asphalt Jungle doesn't really have a femme fatale in the sense of Double Indemnity or The Lady From Shanghai, but it still feels very noir.
In my opinion MP3 has some noir aspects but doesn't "feel" very noir. Yes, the frame is a noir set up, and I'll grant you that Max's character is much more cynical in the third game. In the first game he runs into the Finito brothers and after they attempt a clever pun Max says, "You guys are killing me, did you make that up yourself or did you get some wino downstairs to come up with it? Don't answer, rhetorical question." He says it rather playfully, almost as if he's having fun, almost a Marlowe-esque line. He makes a few more wisecracks throughout the first game and seems less cynical overall than in 3. But the first game also has a a femme fatale and a permanent night as a visual cue, so to me it "feels more noir."
I feel like MP3 has many superficial elements of "noir" without understanding the true underlying aspect of the genre. While this video isn't exactly about "noir" I think it does a good job of juxtaposing MP1&2 with MP3 and the subsequent changes to Max's character.
I feel like MP3 has many superficial elements of "noir" without understanding the true underlying aspect of the genre. While this video isn't exactly about "noir" I think it does a good job of juxtaposing MP1&2 with MP3 and the subsequent changes to Max's character.
Video had some good points. I wouldn't agree that Max is a one-dimensional character in 3 though. I would say (I don't have any personal experience with the issue) that his character is a pretty accurate portrayal of alcoholism. But the video really hits on the maturity points. Thinking back to Max Payne 2 there's a scene where Mona's taking a shower and Max walks in on her. Nothing explicit is shown, but the scene portrays that Mona has the upper hand on Max (a man usually has a weakness for a naked woman.) Max puts up a tough front, but Mona's holding all the cards, she knows much more about what's going on than Max does. In Max Payne 3 Max walks straight into a sex club pretty much out of nowhere, in the background sexual acts are being performed and a pole dancer is dancing topless on stage. The club serves no purpose to the story, it just shows up, just aww yiss nudity cool dude high five bro.
The section set in the desert (Nevada), I want it to actually feel quite creepy, so it'd be at dusk in the desert as the sun is setting. My inspiration for this is Alan Wake: American Nightmare, the way they show Arizona. The colours, purples and browns, spectacular usage.
