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[Omegasquash]

It's certainly much easier to dismiss criticism when you believe it's all gender based.

I'm not, as I stated in my post. What I believe is that she's getting WAY more criticism specifically because she's a woman.

 

[Fenderputty]

The point of being a politician is to represent their constituents. As their constituents ideals change so must the politician, or risk becoming something other than a politician. Looking for policy flip flops over the course of a politicians entire career is an exercise in stupidity. Yet half this thread is doing just that. When a politician flip flops 6 times over the course of a couple weeks a la Trumpo, then we have an issue with credibility.

 

[hawk2025]

Automation is a good reason why it sourcing here is still competitive. Sure, not as many people will be employed, but until the machines can repair themselves, humans still need to be involved. I'd also rather have the infrastructure here to build and design the automation instead of having it all outsourced as well.

We are researching and building automation here, right now. Uber's labs are with Carnegie Mellon, Google is researching in the Silicon Valley.

There's no economic reason why propping up the old manufacturing jobs in the US now will keep the automation-related jobs in the future in the US.

In fact, it is very easy to argue that artificially propping up something that the US does not have a comparative advantage on will only make any transition more painful, because the productivity gap will only be larger.

 

[Flo_Evans]

You will never get what you want. Ever. FYI.

Probably not.

At least I realize we are fucked and nothing will change. I just can't sit here and say "welp Hillary is the best we can do, guess we are fucked."

I mean you have people in here going well thats how it works you see, you need the money to beat the BIG BAD GUY, when in fact, the money is the bad guy. Capitalism is literally a cancer. I saw this as the owner of a business that exploits the fuck out of people lower on the economic ladder than myself.

Whatever bros, thanks for the tax breaks.

 

[eBay Huckster]

Im on mobile and not typing all that.

Then get to a physical keyboard and start typing, because I'm not spending 13 minutes watching some random's video

 

[Nickle]

I just wish they'd be outright with it and call her a bitch. Go right the hell ahead and get it out there. She's been catching hell from every angle since before the campaign has started, and people are up her ass because of honest, non-aggressive statements about her opponent.

It's amazing to me. I know that you can't just write off all criticism of Clinton as sexist, but I firmly, firmly believe that she's getting this much because of her gender.

Was 2008 filled with Clinton and Obama supporters calling each other sexist and racist?

 

[kmag]

How would he even have all of these answers? It's ludicrous. First he needs to get in office, and employ that army of advisors and experts who's job it will be to work these things out.

Also how did you arrive at the conclusion he has no intentions to help the party? He's been helping the party for years, including Hillary, on numerous policies and moves. I'd also argue that by virtue of even running, he is helping the party, by forcing the conversation to veer towards the left, which is something that clearly a huge portion of the voting demographic want, even if big business or the establishment don't.

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) wouldn't say if he will turn his fundraising juggernaut toward the Democratic House and Senate campaign committees and down-ballot Democratic candidates in a Wednesday night interview on MSNBC's "The Rachel Maddow Show."

"Right now, our job is to, what I'm trying to do is win the Democratic nomination," Sanders said.

He said he is "blown away" by his campaign's small-dollar fundraising.

"Without that type of support, we would not be where we are right now," he said.

Host Rachel Maddow said rival Hillary Clinton has been fundraising for her campaign as well as the Democratic Party. Will the Sanders campaign begin this type of fundraising as well, Maddow asked.

"We'll see," Sanders said. "Right now, our focus is on winning the nomination."

"We'll see" sure sounds like a guy who's invested in down ballot races. As stands Pres Sanders would get less done than Obama managed. He'll need to at least take back the Senate, but I suppose he'd need to vet the ideological purity of any candidate before he'd dirty himself by helping out.

 

[Maxim726X]

How would he even have all of these answers? It's ludicrous. First he needs to get in office, and employ that army of advisors and experts who's job it will be to work these things out.

Also how did you arrive at the conclusion he has no intentions to help the party? He's been helping the party for years, including Hillary, on numerous policies and moves. I'd also argue that by virtue of even running, he is helping the party, by forcing the conversation to veer towards the left, which is something that clearly a huge portion of the voting demographic want, even if big business or the establishment don't.

...No. That's not how it works.

You have to have a plan in place. It's one of the main tentpoles of his campaign. Of course he has to have a plan in place.

He said he has no interest in fundraising for the party, which is incredibly important in down ticket campaigns.

I also see that you have neglected to answer the most important piece of my reply: How does he get anything done without Congressional aid?

 

[eBay Huckster]

Was 2008 filled with Clinton and Obama supporters calling each other sexist and racist?

2008 was full of comments like "I've had enough of Hussein" and "inadequate black male" from Clinton supporters toward the end, so... one of those things

(though those supporters have now jumped ship to the GOP)

 

[Xe4]

Was 2008 filled with Clinton and Obama supporters calling each other sexist and racist?

Yes? 2008 was fucking brutal. Makes this primary seem like kiddy fun time.

I'm not sure the point you're trying to make though. You may be agreeing with me.

 

[legacyzero]

Then get to a physical keyboard and start typing, because I'm not spending 13 minutes watching some random's video

Nope. Server admin at work hates GAF. Im why its blocked now LOL.

Watch it or dont /shrug.

 

[hawk2025]

How would he even have all of these answers? It's ludicrous. First he needs to get in office, and employ that army of advisors and experts who's job it will be to work these things out.

Also how did you arrive at the conclusion he has no intentions to help the party? He's been helping the party for years, including Hillary, on numerous policies and moves. I'd also argue that by virtue of even running, he is helping the party, by forcing the conversation to veer towards the left, which is something that clearly a huge portion of the voting demographic want, even if big business or the establishment don't.

I feel like a good advisor for his army would Krueger, the guy that wrote the book on the economic evidence for increasing the minimum wage.

What do you think?

Probably not.

At least I realize we are fucked and nothing will change. I just can't sit here and say "welp Hillary is the best we can do, guess we are fucked."

I mean you have people in here going well thats how it works you see, you need the money to beat the BIG BAD GUY, when in fact, the money is the bad guy. Capitalism is literally a cancer. I saw this as the owner of a business that exploits the fuck out of people lower on the economic ladder than myself.

Whatever bros, thanks for the tax breaks.

Ah, there it is. Cheap talk and privilege.

 

[ivysaur12]

We'll see

Get fucked, Bernie. For real.

 

[CrazyDude]

How would he even have all of these answers? It's ludicrous. First he needs to get in office, and employ that army of advisors and experts who's job it will be to work these things out.

Also how did you arrive at the conclusion he has no intentions to help the party? He's been helping the party for years, including Hillary, on numerous policies and moves. I'd also argue that by virtue of even running, he is helping the party, by forcing the conversation to veer towards the left, which is something that clearly a huge portion of the voting demographic want, even if big business or the establishment don't.

He doesn't have any answers, advisors are good for the very specific aspects of things, but they have to have a general plan to get things done. A president is not a rubber stamp job and every one around him does everything for him while he just puts a signature to paper. And sorry, but no amount of advisors and experts will get him to bypass a Republican Congress. The dude say "We'll see" when asked about supporting the down ticket, which is key to getting his plan passed, shows me he has no idea how to get anything done.

 

[marrec]

Yes? 2008 was fucking brutal. Makes this primary seem like kiddy fun time.

I'm not sure the point you're trying to make though. You may be agreeing with me.

I think most of the vitriol has been concentrated this time around because of the prevalence of social media compared to 2008.

But I'd agree, Obama v. Clinton was nightmarish in some circles.

To the point where a lot of Obama supporters were straight up insulted when he offered her Sec of State.

 

[nib95]

Forgetting the idea of Hillary's "leftness", I think I've come to root of your issue. You believe the country is doomed to failure in the next 8 years unless change happens now.

I understand then why you'd be attracted to a candidate like Sanders.

However, the country will be okay, even if Trump gets elected. Our corporate democracy isn't a sinking ship and if there is a recession looming (I'm not convinced there is) it will happen regardless of who is in the presidency.

I would 100% trust Hillary to handle a recession moreso than Sanders who seems to have very little understanding of how the American financial system works.

You trust Hillary, who has supported and massively profited (to the tune of millions of dollars) from the very companies that actually cause these things in the first place, to handle a recession or collapse more than Sanders? All I can do is shake my head at that. Hillary has as much chance of enabling more of this sort of shit as she does clamping down. These are the same companies that have made her super wealthy and added to her political prominence.

 

[Josh5890]

Was 2008 filled with Clinton and Obama supporters calling each other sexist and racist?

Yes and that wouldn't be an exaggeration by any stretch.

 

[lenovox1]

Was 2008 filled with Clinton and Obama supporters calling each other sexist and racist?

Hell yes! If you had the time, you could just look back to 2008 on this very board.

And people didn't use dog whistles "back then," they just straight up called Clinton a harpy and a bitch, among other things. Now you couldn't use racial slurs on this board without getting an auto permaban back in 08, so Obama didn't get it as bad eta: as far as direct slurs go. There were dog whistles for him.

 

[Nickle]

Yes? 2008 was fucking brutal. Makes this primary seem like kiddy fun time.

I'm not sure the point you're trying to make though. You may be agreeing with me.

I'm genuinely asking as a question, I was too young to follow much internet politics back then.

 

[marrec]

You trust Hillary, who has supported and massively profited (to the tune of millions of dollars) from the very companies that actually cause these things in the first place, to handle a recession or collapse more than Sanders? All I can do is shake my head at that. Hillary has as much chance of enabling more of this sort of shit as she does clamping down. These are the same companies that have made her super wealthy and added to her political prominence.

Do you think we handled the 2008 recession correctly or do you think we need to "break the banks"?

You see, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that we need to break the American banking system. I think that's a dangerous idea that would wreck the economy.

 

[Drek]

Yeah I need more Hillsplanin'

I know exactly how it works, people fund your campaign and expect you to vote how they want. I expect Bernie to govern how I want, thats why I gave HIM money.

So how do you explain Obama's leading donors coming from the major banks in '08 and yet he still passed Dodd-Frank and the Consumer Protection Act? That's some Elizabeth Warren approved legislation so obviously it passes the purity test right?

I really don't care all that much about the democratic party. The way I see it we gave the dems full control of the government in 08 and they gave us watered down insurance industry approved BS.

It gave healthcare to 17 million more people you jackass. Or would you rather those people fucking die in your endless search for perfect?

lol tea party haha, yeah well guess what, the tea party is wrecking shit right now on the state and local level.

Because they show up and vote in local and state elections. Given that 15% of Sanders supporters didn't support the single most obvious choice on their ballot (Kloppenberg for state SCOTUS) I have very little faith that his movement is going to do a goddamn thing in the elections that matter.

I want actual change not more of the same BS. If the down ticket supports that great, but the democrats running in my state are even farther right than Hillary and they can get fucked.

And here we find the single most lazy POS argument around for why people vote like shitheads. Were they further left than the GOP opposition? If not you're implicitly supporting the GOP by not voting for them. You empower the far right then scream that the left isn't left enough for you. Well vote for the lesser of two evils in major elections and vote for your preferred candidate in primaries. If enough people would just do that we could substantially move the needle.

Instead you vote like an ideologue and complain that you aren't served up candidates who perfectly match your ideological purity test. The single most entitled, self serving, sack of shit outlook to have on democratic politics a human being can have.

Congrats. You are the single biggest problem in American politics.

 

[kmag]

Get fucked, Bernie. For real.

He's essentially the fucker who comes to your party, but doesn’t bring a bottle of wine or anything else and then complains that there is not enough booze or food.

 

[nib95]

And sorry, but no amount of advisors and experts will get him to bypass a Republican Congress.

And I don't deny that, I never have. The point is, the further left you start, the more chance you have of ending up with something more progressive, even if it isn't exactly what you wanted. Eg Obamacare. Hillary's starting point is essentially the same shit we have now, which is the worst way to start a negotiation. She doesn't even want much better, she's essentially happy with more of roughly the same

 

[The Lamonster]

Instead of answering that question, she should have just asked, "what has he done for down-ballot democrats?"

And, what's so crazy about this whole subject, is that he cannot have his 'political revolution' without the support of down-ballot democrats.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

We are researching and building automation here, right now. Uber's labs are with Carnegie Mellon, Google is researching in the Silicon Valley.

There's no economic reason why propping up the old manufacturing jobs in the US now will keep the automation-related jobs in the future in the US.

In fact, it is very easy to argue that artificially propping up something that the US does not have a comparative advantage on will only make any transition more painful, because the productivity gap will only be larger.

The thing is I am saying that we have an economic advantage when things are produced here. It just isn't always apparent on the price sticker alone. The philosophy within corporate purchasing departments is changing.

Sure, it may be cheaper to buy a fastener for example from Vietnam using cheaper Chinese steel. Given the choice between a $0.015 domestically produced fastener using Japanese steel and the $0.009 Vietnamese fastener should seem obvious. Go with the cheaper part. But it isn't. There is a reason why Japanese cars have great quality records, It's the fasteners used to hold them together. That cheap screw could cost my company a hefty warranty claim in the future if it fails due to poor steel quality or improper rolling or corrosion due to bad plating.

On top of this - do you know that many of the large automotive companies actually have programs internally to promote local sourcing because it eliminates supply chain risk?

Airfreight isn't cheap, and a supply chain issue can easily eat up any of the savings you get from buying from overseas.

 

[noshten]

Instead of answering that question, she should have just asked, "what has he done for down-ballot democrats?"

And, what's so crazy about this whole subject, is that he cannot have his 'political revolution' without the support of down-ballot democrats.

It's a good thing his fundraising is unparalleled and as the nominee he would raise yuge amount. Also that volunteer structure he has in place across the US will be put into use in the GE. Bernie would truly wipe the floor with any Republican put forth.

 

[eBay Huckster]

It's a good thing his fundraising is unparalleled

so what's stopping him from using even the tiniest part of it to support people running for the house/senate/gubernatorial offices right now

 

[DietRob]

It's a good thing his fundraising is unparalleled and as the nominee he would raise yuge amount. Also that volunteer structure he has in place across the US will be put into use in the GE.

"We'll see."

 

[Xe4]

I'm genuinely asking as a question, I was too young to follow much internet politics back then.

Oh ok. I was pretty young too but I was heavily invested in politics from a young age. There is often a lot of vitrol in primaries. If Sanders was doing better you would see a simmilar circumstance. Clinton would not play as nice as she is now if she was tied or loosing. Neither would Sanders. It's just the name of the game I guess.

 

[Tranqueris]

Stay steady Queen, dont give in to the pressure.

I know she's frustrated that she still has to campaign despite pretty much locking up the nomination last month, but this is not the way to deal with this. The bernie campaign and his rabid followers will just use this against her.

I can see why she should avoid this but at the same time the next few primaries are closed, meaning no more last minute independents to help Bernie like they did in Michigan. So there totally is an argument to be made to Democratic voters that Bernie only joined up to run for President and that he's doing fuck all to help the party win seats in November, which is all true.

It's basically a "he's not really one of us" kind of attack. Which would be pretty funny if it works, considering the "she's not a real progressive, she's not one of us!" attacks Bernie and his supporters have been making against her for the last few months.

You mean a myth still being perpetuated?

It's even sadder when people are told that there's absolutely no evidence that she had a hand in that and then their reaction is "well I'm sure she still had something to do with it! She's just that good."

 

[nib95]

Do you think we handled the 2008 recession correctly or do you think we need to "break the banks"?

You see, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that we need to break the American banking system. I think that's a dangerous idea that would wreck the economy.

I do. And of course it is going to initially have negative ramifications on the economy, but the long term implications are worth it. It's not like the economic crash (the causes of which are still occurring to this very day), didn't wreck the economy, and aren't going to happen again in the near future.

And no, I absolutely do not think we handled the global crash properly. It should have been a catalyst to completely reworking the banking system and sector, with far more stringent regulations, new rules, auditing structures and bodies, new ratings controls, audits of the ratings organisations themselves, bonds, cdo's, mortgages, and so on. I also think there should have been significantly more criminal charges brought forward, with a far greater emphasis put on getting to those at the top for fraud, irrespective of the legal costs and potential broken bridges. Shit hit the fan in an unimaginable way, it should have been the catalyst for massive change, and the public outrage and anger could have helped bolster it. Instead, we're left with a patch job and basically exactly the same thing.

 

[T'Zariah]

You trust Hillary, who has supported and massively profited (to the tune of millions of dollars) from the very companies that actually cause these things in the first place, to handle a recession or collapse more than Sanders? All I can do is shake my head at that. Hillary has as much chance of enabling more of this sort of shit as she does clamping down. These are the same companies that have made her super wealthy and added to her political prominence.

I know you really really really REALLY want to believe what you just posted, but just because you repeat bullshit doesn't make said bullshit true.

You're buying into GOP smears and false attacks for the past 25 years.

 

[nitekrawlwer]

He's a sitting U.S. Senator. He already has a federal budget for staff and direct access to any think tank he wants to reach out to.

But then people might tell him things outside of his ideological comfort zone and that conflicts too directly with his reality. Hence why he couldn't administer the VA effectively, why all of his policy proposals are critically flawed, why he thinks all issues are economic issues when black kids are getting shot by cops every fucking day, etc. etc..

I'm not stupid so I'm going to vote for whoever the democratic nominee is but I'll be damned if I wont have to plug my nose and curse under my breath if it's Sanders at this point.

 

[hawk2025]

The thing is I am saying that we have an economic advantage when things are produced here. It just isn't always apparent on the price sticker alone. The philosophy within corporate purchasing departments is changing.

You do understand that many of the large automotive companies actually have programs internally to promote local sourcing because it eliminates supply chain risk?

If we have an economic advantage when things are produced here, then production will be located here.

You are laser-focused on the issue from a supply chain management perspective as an american manufacturer. The economics of it as a global economy doesn't hash out that way.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

But if you reqyire receipts, Lets start with 13 minutes straight of flip flop action.

Career politician spanning decades and all the lies you got are summed up in a 13 minute video? That just makes her pretty darn impressive.

 

[nib95]

I know you really really really REALLY want to believe what you just posted, but just because you repeat bullshit doesn't make said bullshit true.

You're buying into GOP smears and false attacks for the past 25 years.

The GOP smears? Lol. They're responsible for exactly the same shit and much worse. GOP bringing this stuff up would be glass houses to an entirely new level.

 

[nitekrawlwer]

It's a good thing his fundraising is unparalleled and as the nominee he would raise yuge amount. Also that volunteer structure he has in place across the US will be put into use in the GE. Bernie would truly wipe the floor with any Republican put forth.

If his fundraising and team building is so on point why did he need to use the democratic establishment like at all?

 

[SolarPowered]

He's essentially the fucker who comes to your party, but doesn’t bring a bottle of wine or anything else and then complains that there is not enough booze or food.

Cut him some slack. He does bring a bunch of girls in their twenties to the parties. That has to count for something, right? Also, weed for everyone.

Feel the bern

 

[Drek]

The GOP smears? Lol. They're responsible for exactly the same shit and much worse. GOP bringing this stuff up would be glass houses to an entirely new level.

Except they do. They pushed for Citizen's United largely anticipating Clinton's 2008 run and potential Presidency, and you echo the talking points they've been pushing about her for over two decades.

You also have the same amount of evidence to support your claims that they do. Zero, zilch, nada.

FYI, here is the website for Citizen's United, the organization that brought and won the case. 3 of their 8 current headlines are Hillary Clinton hit jobs. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

 

[T'Zariah]

The GOP smears? Lol. They're responsible for exactly the same shit and much worse. GOP bringing this stuff up would be glass houses to an entirely new level.

All right, show me concrete evidence that's not taken out of context.

You won't find any, but I'll let you humor me.

 

[GuessMyUserName]

Why is this even a thing?

Dude's had an (I) next to his name for a very, very long time.

It's not even a question.

Because Hillary said it

 

[Box of Kittens]

I'm not stupid so I'm going to vote for whoever the democratic nominee is but I'll be damned if I wont have to plug my nose and curse under my breath if it's Sanders at this point.

This is where I am now, after starting the campaign with the attitude of "I'd happily vote for either in the general election."

I'm now convinced he'd be a completely ineffective president, but pretty much everything I've said to the Bernie or Bust crowd is a valid reason to vote for him if he somehow gets the nomination. I just don't have to like it.

 

[Korigama]

But everyone else wonders the same of her.

No, they don't. Completely nonsensical first post.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

If we have an economic advantage when things are produced here, then production will be located here.

You are laser-focused on the issue from a supply chain management perspective as an american manufacturer. The economics of it as a global economy doesn't hash out that way.

I've given examples, how about you show me your receipts and tell me why i'm wrong instead of using platitudes. Why is manufacturing dead in the USA even with the trend for reshoring?

 

[nib95]

Except they do. They pushed for Citizen's United largely anticipating Clinton's 2008 run, and you echo the talking points they've been pushing about her for over two decades.

You also have the same amount of evidence to support your claims that they do. Zero, zilch, nada.

It's a matter of fact that she's profited greatly from some of these very institutions. Whether or not it will affect her political performance and tenure in relation to them is obviously down to personal opinion and assumption, but to me personally it's inconceivable that someone who's benefited so much, could be completely unswayed. I also don't care if it's a GOP attack point, if it's actually true, credible and of merit, which in this instance it is, at least the former anyway.

This sort of shit is the kind of stuff I routinely attack or criticise the GOP for as well. The money in politics, the lobbying, indirect bribery, pandering, corruption etc. I'm certainly not about to let Hillary off the hook just because she's a Democrat.

 

[Flo_Evans]

So how do you explain Obama's leading donors coming from the major banks in '08 and yet he still passed Dodd-Frank and the Consumer Protection Act? That's some Elizabeth Warren approved legislation so obviously it passes the purity test right?


It gave healthcare to 17 million more people you jackass. Or would you rather those people fucking die in your endless search for perfect?


Because they show up and vote in local and state elections. Given that 15% of Sanders supporters didn't support the single most obvious choice on their ballot (Kloppenberg for state SCOTUS) I have very little faith that his movement is going to do a goddamn thing in the elections that matter.


And here we find the single most lazy POS argument around for why people vote like shitheads. Were they further left than the GOP opposition? If not you're implicitly supporting the GOP by not voting for them. You empower the far right then scream that the left isn't left enough for you. Well vote for the lesser of two evils in major elections and vote for your preferred candidate in primaries. If enough people would just do that we could substantially move the needle.

Instead you vote like an ideologue and complain that you aren't served up candidates who perfectly match your ideological purity test. The single most entitled, self serving, sack of shit outlook to have on democratic politics a human being can have.

Congrats. You are the single biggest problem in American politics.

Dodd-frank? lol She doesn't seem to like it anymore http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...arren-wall-street-1219-jm-20141219-story.html

17m more people insurance companies can fuck over great. They are siphoning off public funds into private hands. wow!

I don't know who Kloppenberg is, not my state.

I don't really accept this ideology. If I was self serving I would vote R and fuck everyone else. I do not think Hillary is going to be good for society. So I am not going to vote for her, period. The least evil assuming Hillary gets the nomination would be Jill Stein. Jill Stein is not going to win shit. Oh well.

The idea that you have to pick from these 2 shitty choices and well they are both horrible but this one is slightly better is bullshit. The 2 parties perpetuate this myth to maintain control. Works for them so great. Doesn't work for me or for the people.

 

[legacyzero]

Career politician spanning decades and all the lies you got are summed up in a 13 minute video? That just makes her pretty darn impressive.

LOL I dont even understand you. "She's a politician. They lie sometimes."

Is that what Im getting out of your comment?

I mean... Im supposed to accept that knowing theres a candidate for the dem nomination that doesn't???

You ask for source. I give it. You write it off.

I... I cant...

 

[Aaronrules380]

LOL I dont even understand you. "She's a politician. They lie sometimes."

Is that what Im getting out of your comment?

I mean... Im supposed to accept that knowing theres a candidate for the dem nomination that doesn't???

You ask for source. I give it. You write it off.

I... I cant...

I mean, given his campaign promises,Sanders is either lying about everything, or he's completely delusional, because there's literally no chance he'd be able to achieve any of his stated goals during the 4-8 years he'd get in office if he won the election

 

[Cipherr]

I'd have to hold my nose big time at this point to vote Bernie, but I would do it.

Like hell I trade meager progress for full on regression in the supreme court and in the dozen or so progressive moves we have managed to achieve in the last 8 years.

No fucking way. Not even close.

 

[Matt]

...he's not. He says he's not. What is the issue?