Lol, and it's also led to increasingly diminished social standards compared to the rest of the world, on homicides, mental health, incarceration, education standards, math and literacy, wealth inequality, obesity, social mobility and so on. These incremental tip toes to the left aren't nearly sufficient enough, and corruption and the corporate stranglehold on politics is perhaps worse than ever. Wealth inequality is the highest it's been in several decades. The US needs someone who at least has the ambition to truly steer it leftwards, not someone's who's mostly happy meandering in the centre, with only minor shifts to the left and right depending on the issue.
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Hillary Clinton on Sanders: 'I'm not even sure he is a Democract'
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Lol, and it's also led to increasingly diminished social standards compared to the rest of the world, on homicides, mental health, incarceration, education standards, math and literacy, wealth inequality, obesity, social mobility and so on. These incremental tip toes to the left aren't nearly sufficient enough, and corruption and the corporate stranglehold on politics is perhaps worse than ever. Wealth inequality is the highest it's been in several decades. The US needs someone who at least has the ambition to truly steer it leftwards, not someone's who's mostly happy meandering in the centre, with only minor shifts to the left and right depending on the issue.
Debt free public tuition*
Don't be a Lyin' Ted.
Even Hillary (was) creating plans for debt free public tuition, she's just planning on using federal funds, while Bernie is trying to leverage taxes on speculative trading as its primary funding.
It's certainly much easier to dismiss criticism when you believe it's all gender based.
Yeah I need more Hillsplanin'
I know exactly how it works, people fund your campaign and expect you to vote how they want. I expect Bernie to govern how I want, thats why I gave HIM money.
I really don't care all that much about the democratic party. The way I see it we gave the dems full control of the government in 08 and they gave us watered down insurance industry approved BS.
lol tea party haha, yeah well guess what, the tea party is wrecking shit right now on the state and local level.
I want actual change not more of the same BS. If the down ticket supports that great, but the democrats running in my state are even farther right than Hillary and they can get fucked.
Do you think Obama has steered the country left-ward?
Cybrwzrd
Banned
Because protecting manufacturing jobs in the USA protects other related jobs throughout the supply chain. I work in manufacturing purchasing/supply chain management - I'm not trying to protect my job, because frankly I love travelling to developing countries to make purchasing decisions from them to save my company money - my job is pretty secure no matter what.That being said, frankly, buying from the USA isn't considerably more costly than buying from outside the USA when factoring in freight costs, the costs of carrying extra inventory, expedite costs, costs of handling a foreign supplier, etc.
But I also see the larger impact that happens when an industry moves out of the USA. It's the same reason the bailing out the auto industry was extremely important. The manufacture of durable goods takes a massive supply chain. If a tier 2 or 3 industry dies out here it takes out all of the downstream support services that keep said industry running. If an OEM goes out, it kills the entire industry, and an exponential number of jobs beyond what were lost at just the assembly plant.
People did it to Obama for most of his tenure as President when his goals and promises got disrupted by obstructionism and have only just recently within the past few years gotten back behind him when they've seen all of the great things that have come about for us domestically. Increments are important and right now they are necessary. I think this would happen to any "dream" candidate that focuses in on promises and lofty goals. Not that I can blame young Obama for that because the hand he was dealt with was not a normal one.
MetalGearZed
Member
well he's a progressive liberal. i don't care what he's called
Isn't that what liberals want her to do? Or would you prefer stick to her "clearly right leaning" views so that Bernie looks better?
legacyzero
Banned
Oh, so I cant use Youtube for proper video representation? Sounds like a cop out to me.
Yeah Im good with what I have, thanks.
I'd rather ger be principle in most things. Thats why Bernie is so appealing to me. She shouts "Im CONSISTENT!" which is completely false, and Bernie has been mostly principle for decades.
I would like her to OWN her flip flops, instead of acting like it never happened.
If they did, it would only prove many of them are ignorant about how government works. The presidency is not this
Add cooperation from the Senate and house to the left panel, too. It's long, complex and messy. There will never be perfect solutions, but we can get good compromise that moves us forward.
I wish I had a brick I could throw through my computer screen.
Poodlestrike
Banned
The last president who got the "world's best advisers" excuse was George W. Bush.
Let that sink in for a second.
At the end of the day, the guy in Oval Office has to make a decision, and in that moment, he's alone. His advisers can advise, but they can't make the final call. I want the President to be somebody who knows this shit going in. I don't want the first time they hear about an issue be when that issue becomes critical. Now, nobody's all-knowledgeable, but with Bernie I don't even have faith that he wants to know.
Let that sink in for a second.
At the end of the day, the guy in Oval Office has to make a decision, and in that moment, he's alone. His advisers can advise, but they can't make the final call. I want the President to be somebody who knows this shit going in. I don't want the first time they hear about an issue be when that issue becomes critical. Now, nobody's all-knowledgeable, but with Bernie I don't even have faith that he wants to know.
Box of Kittens
Banned
"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
The above quote, often attributed to John Maynard Keynes (it's not clear he actually said it), I think really puts the issue of "flip flopping" in perspective. Hillary Clinton has been a national political figure for roughly a quarter of a century. I'd be disturbed if she didn't change her mind sometimes.
A specific example that often gets cited is Clinton's past opposition to marriage equality. Ten years ago I was living in Wisconsin when a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage and civil unions passed with over 59% of the vote. This was in a blue state during a Democratic wave election! What happened since then? A lot of people have changed their minds on the issue. Of course some of them will be politicians!
How does that help us prepare for the AI and automation revolution?
balladofwindfishes
Member
You uhhh... kind of reinforced her point with your post. That's such a simplistic, naive view of the 08 congress.
Bernie->Trump threats: being anti establishment of two different parties is not a globally shared platform of policies and ideas. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around someone, who passionately believes in what Bernie preaches, turning around and voting Trump because Hilary got the nom. It's like saying that one candidate doesn't go far enough so let's just abandon all of it altogether and even reverse a bunch of it. I've had friends say "well trump isn't reaaaallly going to do all that, he's just doing this for votes!", being completely oblivious to the irony of constantly saying they wouldnt support Hilary because "she's a liar", and then telling me to vote for someone with the grand plan of hoping that they're lying about all of it.
I mean her assessment is correct, he's not really a Democrat. But the way it's used as an insult and it's at best a complete misunderstanding of the necessities of working within a broken two party system. At worst, and most probably, it's a willful misrepresentation used as a sly jab without trying to make it feel like she's making a dirty jab.
You haven't posted a single example at all. Literally nothing; only claimed to have seen some really 'researchy' YT vids. I know you aren't looking for meaningful discourse.
Why don't you go into detail about these specific issues. Start with 7 or 8 so there can be an actual discussion. I have seen a lot of shit on YT too, that's not really saying much.
Flo_Evans said:
So you really dont understand what you are talking about and dont know the details at all then?
Paging: Battersea Power Station for permission to be condescending. Or well... MORE condescending that is. When someone is this adamant and militant about something they have had every opportunity to educate themselves on, I feel a little fire is warranted.
The way you see it is wrong. All throughout this post, and particularly the bolded.
You want actual change? Well voting for Bernie and telling Dem Senators/Reps to fuck off guarantees nothing Bernie wants will ever happen. The president does not unilaterally pass laws, there is no Bernie Party waiting in the wings to sweep the congressional races this year or in the midterms, and the reason the tea party is wrecking shit on the state and local level is because of dismissive attitudes like yours to anything that isn't a presidential race.
eBay Huckster
Member
and the way you see it is an oversimplistic load of shit, between
- the democrats holding a filibuster-proof majority for all of 20 days
- the hypothetical 60th vote being Joe "literally campaigned for Obama's opponent" Lieberman
- any of the other realities of negotiating these giant reform bills with a caucus that is not ideologically homogeneous
- and the facts of the matter regarding the Medicaid expansion
Yes, we get it. Income inequality is a huge issue. Possibly the most serious threat for the middle class in the history of this nation. Great.
Okay- How does he fix it? Let's go over some recent developments:
- He has no interest in helping the Democratic party, in which his inaction could affect his ability to gain any ground in leveling the playing field.
- On that note- He said that he wouldn't really even know how to implement one of his main campaign promises-- Breaking up the big banks. Does it worry you that he doesn't have a competent answer for this at this point? Because it should.
- He has not addressed a major issue with his tax reform plan- Passing the potential savings from employers back to the worker. And no, instituting a national minimum wage of $15/hour doesn't account for the thousands upon thousands of dollars that the average American family would have to pay for his plan. Again, he needs to address this.
Just off the top of my head. But the most important part of this reply- He needs Congressional seats, which apparently he doesn't care about funding.
So tl;dr: How does he get any of this shit done?
n0razi
Member
Yes... but they also dont want a leader who has no principles and can easily be swayed by other intentions
Its not a black or white thing
So tell me how change happens? Electing Bernie by himself will bring 0 change. So tell us how he will bring change with a Republican congress? Bernie has no party of his own.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Nah, use the youtubes all you like. Just means you continue to lack any sort of actual source. No skin off my back.
Fenderputty
Banned
Which isn't possible without downticket support.
ooo wait ... MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF YOUNG PEOPLE OUTSIDE PAUL RYAN'S CHAMBERS!
You know what would be even better? Reading her voting record.
Have you ever done that?
Box of Kittens
Banned
How are you going to get actual change with conservative Republicans in charge of Congress? Not to mention statehouses? The president can't just wave a magic wand and make change happen.
I mean yeah, of course he isnt. He for sure doesn't consider himself one and many of his supporters don't either. In fact his outsider appeal has attracted a lot of his fanbase. He's been indipendant as long as I can remember and he'll go back to being independent once this is over.
Argue the merits of this if you want, but the undeniable fact is he is, and I hate to use the word, but a DINO. I'm not using it as a purity test or anything, but he is literally only going to be a dem until he drops out or ends his presidency.
Argue the merits of this if you want, but the undeniable fact is he is, and I hate to use the word, but a DINO. I'm not using it as a purity test or anything, but he is literally only going to be a dem until he drops out or ends his presidency.
What makes you think I don't vote in local elections? I don't just go in like a moron and check straight "D" because they are the "good guys" Allot of democrats are actually terrible.
We need good people not blind party voting.
Hexa
Member
And Paul Ryan drinking a glass of wine while looking out the window and laughing at them because he knows they're too dumb to actually do whats necessary to get rid of him.
Box of Kittens
Banned
Of course they aren't. Frankly it takes a lot of privilege to be able to enforce these kinds of purity tests.
Yes, at least on many things, and he was at the time more progressive than Hillary. The further left you start, the further left you have the potential to pull things. Hillary's starting point is essentially in the centre (some left, some right, most status quo). The US has no hope in hell in truly correcting what is in some ways a sinking ship, unless it has someone with lofty ambitions and goals, enough to at least try and push these truly progressive policies through. The next recession is looming, and if Hillary is in office at the time, you can bet your ass her response will be a patch work one with no real fundamental restructure, that will only end with the same shit happening again, with more transfer of wealth and wealth inequality, and a further recession or even collapse not long after.
He's a sitting U.S. Senator. He already has a federal budget for staff and direct access to any think tank he wants to reach out to.
But then people might tell him things outside of his ideological comfort zone and that conflicts too directly with his reality. Hence why he couldn't administer the VA effectively, why all of his policy proposals are critically flawed, why he thinks all issues are economic issues when black kids are getting shot by cops every fucking day, etc. etc..
legacyzero
Banned
I would assume the people who want discourse should hopefully know these things exist. If you know little about what you're trying to discuss, dont discuss (IMO). Theres a lot of threads I womt go into or post in because I know little to nothing about the subject matter.
But I took a lot of time (yes, on youtube. Dont complain that Im trying to do my homework when most dont even try) once people on GAF started questioning her and her flip flops. (Yes. Here on GAF)
So I wanted to know more.
But if you reqyire receipts, Lets start with 13 minutes straight of flip flop action.
https://youtu.be/-dY77j6uBHI
K, thanks.
So you mean to tell me, that I should only see her votes, but disregard what she SAYS. How she campaigns. Saying one thing and doing another?
I mean... How does that make sense??
Fenderputty
Banned
It's a hilarious catch 22 they're all caught up in without realizing they're caught up in. But hey ... he's "principled"
You will never get what you want. Ever. FYI.
eBay Huckster
Member
hell yeah let me devote 13 minutes to a video you can summarize in text in less than a minute
The bolded is factually incorrect. Obama and Hillary were more or less the same amount to the left in'08, and Hillary was perhaps even a bit more liberal. In no sense of the word is she a moderate.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Cybrwzrd
Banned
Automation is a good reason why it sourcing here is still competitive. Sure, not as many people will be employed, but until the machines can repair themselves, humans still need to be involved. I'd also rather have the infrastructure here to build and design the automation instead of having it all outsourced as well.
Someone's D or R is the best predictor of their actual voting record. Claims of being "independent" are silly- people vote the party line almost all the time, because their leadership votes are the most important thing about them.
Okay, and how does that help Bernie? Do you think a Republican-led Congress is more likely to embrace and pass President Sanders' progressive agenda than a Dem-led one?
Sure, there are plenty of bad Democrats on the federal and state levels. But thumbing your nose at the whole party because fuck voting along party lines doesn't create a Bernie-friendly legislative body at all -- particularly when the politicians in that legislative body largely vote along party lines themselves anyway.
Great!
So as we've seen with the Wisconsin Supreme Court vote, not all Sanders supporters are as informed about their local elections as you are.
So what's the plan to get these "good" people in positions of power or influence? By doing absolutely nothing and hoping everything turns out for the best, a la Sanders? That's the plan? You do realize how that will absolutely not work. That's not even a question.
Forgetting the idea of Hillary's "leftness", I think I've come to root of your issue. You believe the country is doomed to failure in the next 8 years unless change happens now.
I understand then why you'd be attracted to a candidate like Sanders.
However, the country will be okay, even if Trump gets elected. Our corporate democracy isn't a sinking ship and if there is a recession looming (I'm not convinced there is) it will happen regardless of who is in the presidency.
I would 100% trust Hillary to handle a recession moreso than Sanders who seems to have very little understanding of how the American financial system works.
If you truly feel that our times are so desperate that we need to elect a desperate radical to correct our current course, nothing I can say will convince you otherwise. I can only try to convince you that the real desperation lies in income and racial inequality, issues for which both Hillary and Sanders are almost identical.
legacyzero
Banned
Im on mobile and not typing all that. Sorry. I provided a source. Its up to you.
How would he even have all of these answers? It's ludicrous. First he needs to get in office, and employ that army of advisors and experts who's job it will be to work these things out.
Also how did you arrive at the conclusion he has no intentions to help the party? He's been helping the party for years, including Hillary, on numerous policies and moves. I'd also argue that by virtue of even running, he is helping the party, by forcing the conversation to veer towards the left, which is something that clearly a huge portion of the voting demographic want, even if big business or the establishment don't.
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