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[Woggleman]

Out of interest, do you think the soldier was right to shoot Sarah? And attempt to shoot Joel?

In his mind he most likely perceived them as a threat or at least the government but there is no justification for just an innocent person. It's similar to innocent people are killed in times of war. This doctore was not killing Ellie just to kill her. In his eyes saving humanity was worth one life. That is debatable but in the eyes of his daughter Joel is the man who killed the father who doted on her and protected her in this brutal world. Who knows happened to her after her safety was shattered that day. It's similar to how a pilot who did a bombing raid goes home and hugs his family but from the perspective of the city that was left in ruins he is a monster.

 

[Steve.1981]

Also her father right or wrong was not being malicious but saw the sacrifice of one life for whole of humanity as a worthy trade off.

Again, call it what it was. They deliberately kept an innocent child unconscious & were going to kill her, without giving her any say in the matter, because they hoped that if they cut her brain up it could possibly lead to a vaccine. Maybe.

Call it what it actually was.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Rachel is going to be in for a shock. Any of you clever paint / shop savvy bastards want to put a golf club through it?

Whomever has Photoshop skills don't forget to rotate the image 90 degrees.

 

[Nitty_Grimes]

I so wanted to say in the recent pre order thread Sony gonna score a hole in one with this, but thought that might have constituted a spoiler so didn’t want to risk a ban.

 

[Woggleman]

Again, call it what it was. They deliberately kept an innocent child unconscious & were going to kill her, without giving her any say in the matter, because they hoped that if they cut her brain up it could possibly lead to a vaccine. Maybe.

Call it what it actually was.

I call it what it actually is but in the minds of the doctors they saw all the other lives this would saved. There are many times in history where people did terrible things for the greater good.

 

[cormack12]

In his mind he most likely perceived them as a threat or at least the government but there is no justification for just an innocent person. It's similar to innocent people are killed in times of war. This doctore was not killing Ellie just to kill her. In his eyes saving humanity was worth one life. That is debatable but in the eyes of his daughter Joel is the man who killed the father who doted on her and protected her in this brutal world. Who knows happened to her after her safety was shattered that day. It's similar to how a pilot who did a bombing raid goes home and hugs his family but from the perspective of the city that was left in ruins he is a monster.

You don't get to choose. You support the ideology or you don't. You will not always be determining what the justification is. It's not a one way street. It reads very much like a 'when we do it, it's ok because our cause is just'.

Whether Sarah was innoccent or not doesnt factor into the equation. The question is, can they verify she won't infect others? Which is just as virtuous as extracting a vaccine from someone. Both espouse 'the suffering of the few, for the survival of the many'.

For the record, I don't agree with the soldier shooting Sarah, and I also don't agree the doctor's had the right or justification to end a human life just to chase a Holy Grail or panacea.

I call it what it actually is but in the minds of the doctors they saw all the other lives this would saved. There are many times in history where people did terrible things for the greater good.

There are many times terrible people did terrible things for the greater good as well.

 

[Steve.1981]

I call it what it actually is but in the minds of the doctors they saw all the other lives this would saved. There are many times in history where people did terrible things for the greater good.

Maybe!!!

All the other lives this could maybe, possibly save!

There was no guarantee that killing Ellie & cutting up her brain would lead to a vaccine. None whatsoever. The game makes this perfectly clear to the player. & they didn't even give her a choice!!!

I'll be blunt. Fuck the greater good.

 

[cormack12]

From reddit - wonder who this unlikeable character was? Also shows the crunch down to the creative changes again......not devs being lazy.

Article archive: https://web.archive.org/web/2020050...hes-on-the-last-of-us-ii-developer-1842289962

 

[Teslerum]

Maybe!!!

All the other lives this could maybe, possibly save!

There was no guarantee that killing Ellie & cutting up her brain would lead to a vaccine. None whatsoever. The game makes this perfectly clear to the player. & they didn't even give her a choice!!!

I'll be blunt. Fuck the greater good.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Maybe!!!

All the other lives this could maybe, possibly save!

There was no guarantee that killing Ellie & cutting up her brain would lead to a vaccine. None whatsoever. The game makes this perfectly clear to the player. & they didn't even give her a choice!!!

Yeah, that was a lame plot point slapped on at the end. Wasn't Ellie the first, and possibly the only, to be immune? How was it determined that they needed a piece of the brain without doing any other tests first?

 

[Woggleman]

Maybe!!!

All the other lives this could maybe, possibly save!

There was no guarantee that killing Ellie & cutting up her brain would lead to a vaccine. None whatsoever. The game makes this perfectly clear to the player. & they didn't even give her a choice!!!

I'll be blunt. Fuck the greater good.

I tend to agree with you but it does depend on the point of view. Also it is very likely that this same doctor was also a loving and devoted father to his daughter and that is side of him she remembers which is why she went after the man that killed him.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

It’s funny how you guys always forget the part in which the creator of the game is a crazy feminist who says his games are influenced by another crazy feminist.

It really makes you think that maybe you all are disregarding objective facts because you are incapable of accepting that the game is indeed filled with feminist tropes and agenda.

That's deflection. The content doesn't change because of the politics of who made it, it just colors your view of it. It's still no more obviously woke than what I compared it to.

Oh hell no. Jim Cameron is not one of these new extreme wokesters. Don't you put that evil on him!

Every film that dude has ever made. Every one of his films, features strong female & male characters. Working together. Learning from each other. Leaning on each other. Being there to save each other. He believes in men & women, that we are stronger together when we respect one another, that we can learn from one other. That our innate differences are equally to be respected. He is an old school liberal who strongly values the union of man & woman & by extension the traditional family unit.

Sarah Connor & Kyle Reese.
Ripley, Hicks & Newt (& Bishop, the family dog).
Bud & Linsay Brigman.
Sarah Connor, the T800 & John.
Harry, Helen & Dana Tasker.
Jack & Rose.
Jake & Neytiri.

Every single one of his films has the same thing at it's core. Strong women & strong men, & sometimes kids too. No woke lecturing. No disrespectful, dismissive sneering at lesser beings who aren't as evolved as him. He doesn't talk down to his audience. He never treats them, or his characters, like crap. He's the fucking man & I love his work.

He would never treat Joel, or Ellie, the way it looks like Neil Druckman is going to.

First of all... Alien wasn't James Cameron, ALIENS was. Also, he made Avatar because he admits to believing environmental terrorism, I can absolutely put wokeness upon him. Here's a Jim Cameron quote: “And he said: ‘OK, OJ Simpson for the Terminator.’ I was like: ‘Hey Mike! Bad idea! You’re going to have this black athlete chasing this white girl around LA with a fricking knife and a gun? We’re not doing that.’ Which was fortunate, but also unfortunate in that life ended up imitating art there.” and another “All of the self-congratulatory back-patting Hollywood’s been doing over Wonder Woman has been so misguided. She’s an objectified icon, and it’s just male Hollywood doing the same old thing! I’m not saying I didn’t like the movie but, to me, it’s a step backwards. Sarah Connor was not a beauty icon. She was strong, she was troubled, she was a terrible mother, and she earned the respect of the audience through pure grit. And to me, [the benefit of characters like Sarah] is so obvious. I mean, half the audience is female!”

I'd argue that he purposely makes the women stronger in his films. Even so TLOU was about Joel and Ellie finding strength through each other, not sure why we assume there will be no strong male leads in this game at all.

Kyle Reese dies and Sarah needs to take out the Terminator.
Hicks is badly injured and sits out the entire last third of the film. Bishop isn't human, he's a robot, he also gets ripped in half and never kills a single alien. Hicks also just parrots Ripley's ideas when he's given command and don't forget the ineffective Gorman or the spineless Burke.
I'd need to watch the Abyss again.
T-800 isn't human, again she speaks about how he's a better father because he isn't a human male. John's strength is how he cares in the film. Sarah Connor is the only physically strong human.
This one's fine but part of the idea of the movie is what a terrible husband he made for her by lying to her and that their relationship is strengthened when she learns the truth.
Notice he tends to have the man die at the end?
Jake is in a wheelchair and can only be strong by using science to transport himself into a different body, the men routinely need to be robots or inhuman to be strong whereas the women are strong in their natural forms like Neytiri or Michele Rodriguez's character... Vasquez, Sarah Connor, etc.
Evil characters are also nearly always men, I can't think of an evil woman in a James Cameron film off the top of my head... on top of all this we seem to be ignoring the first Terminator he had any involvement in since T2 is Dark Fate, the wokest one.

No woke lecturing? Watch the scene in Terminator 2 where Sarah lectures Miles Bennett Dyson on how men like him only know how to create destruction and don't know what it means to create a life and have it grow inside them, lol. I'm not sure about this lesser beings part, but Burke was looked upon as a lesser being than the aliens "you don't see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage".

What do you mean he'd never treat Joel that way? The male heroes in Cameron's work nearly always die or become incapacitated by the end. Killing Joel is exactly what he'd do, only he'd never have a woman do it because then you might have negative thoughts about that woman.
The men are also far more fallible and make worse mistakes, the women are always more ideologically correct and make fewer mistakes in judgment or otherwise.

 

[joe_zazen]

.

I call it what it actually is but in the minds of the doctors they saw all the other lives this would saved. There are many times in history where people did terrible things for the greater good.

Like how the father of human anatomy would pay to have pregnant women at different stages killed so he could dissect them? Or the nazis injected gasoline in veins?

just curious what you are referencing.

 

[Woggleman]

.


Like how the father of human anatomy would pay to have pregnant women at different stages killed so he could dissect them? Or the nazis injected gasoline in veins?

just curious what you are referencing.

Dropping the atom bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It ended the lives of thousands of people and caused health problems that plague people to this day but it also ended one of the bloodiest conflicts the world has ever seen.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

That's deflection. The content doesn't change because of the politics of who made it, it just colors your view of it. It's still no more obviously woke than what I compared it to.



First of all... Alien wasn't James Cameron, ALIENS was. Also, he made Avatar because he admits to believing environmental terrorism, I can absolutely put wokeness upon him. Here's a Jim Cameron quote: “And he said: ‘OK, OJ Simpson for the Terminator.’ I was like: ‘Hey Mike! Bad idea! You’re going to have this black athlete chasing this white girl around LA with a fricking knife and a gun? We’re not doing that.’ Which was fortunate, but also unfortunate in that life ended up imitating art there.” and another “All of the self-congratulatory back-patting Hollywood’s been doing over Wonder Woman has been so misguided. She’s an objectified icon, and it’s just male Hollywood doing the same old thing! I’m not saying I didn’t like the movie but, to me, it’s a step backwards. Sarah Connor was not a beauty icon. She was strong, she was troubled, she was a terrible mother, and she earned the respect of the audience through pure grit. And to me, [the benefit of characters like Sarah] is so obvious. I mean, half the audience is female!”

I'd argue that he purposely makes the women stronger in his films. Even so TLOU was about Joel and Ellie finding strength through each other, not sure why we assume there will be no strong male leads in this game at all.

Kyle Reese dies and Sarah needs to take out the Terminator.
Hicks is badly injured and sits out the entire last third of the film. Bishop isn't human, he's a robot, he also gets ripped in half and never kills a single alien. Hicks also just parrots Ripley's ideas when he's given command and don't forget the ineffective Gorman or the spineless Burke.
I'd need to watch the Abyss again.
T-800 isn't human, again she speaks about how he's a better father because he isn't a human male. John's strength is how he cares in the film. Sarah Connor is the only physically strong human.
This one's fine but part of the idea of the movie is what a terrible husband he made for her by lying to her and that their relationship is strengthened when she learns the truth.
Notice he tends to have the man die at the end?
Jake is in a wheelchair and can only be strong by using science to transport himself into a different body, the men routinely need to be robots or inhuman to be strong whereas the women are strong in their natural forms like Neytiri or Michele Rodriguez's character... Vasquez, Sarah Connor, etc.
Evil characters are also nearly always men, I can't think of an evil woman in a James Cameron film off the top of my head... on top of all this we seem to be ignoring the first Terminator he had any involvement in since T2 is Dark Fate, the wokest one.

No woke lecturing? Watch the scene in Terminator 2 where Sarah lectures Miles Bennett Dyson on how men like him only know how to create destruction and don't know what it means to create a life and have it grow inside them, lol. I'm not sure about this lesser beings part, but Burke was looked upon as a lesser being than the aliens "you don't see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage".

What do you mean he'd never treat Joel that way? The male heroes in Cameron's work nearly always die or become incapacitated by the end. Killing Joel is exactly what he'd do, only he'd never have a woman do it because then you might have negative thoughts about that woman.
The men are also far more fallible and make worse mistakes, the women are always more ideologically correct and make fewer mistakes in judgment or otherwise.

And in all those Alien and Terminator movies with Sigourney Weaver and Linda Hamilton being leads and kicking ass across multiple movies, how many times did they detour the plot (with aliens and robots chasing them) with jammed in lesbians making out, slow dances, and female villains with arms like Hulk Hogan?

 

[Woggleman]

If Ellie had a male love interest there would be no backlash. Even in the worst of times people still get horny and need affection so why should a gay woman not seek it out even in those circumstances?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

If Ellie had a male love interest there would be no backlash. Even in the worst of times people still get horny and need affection so why should a gay woman not seek it out even in those circumstances?

The key thing is Joel is dead, which is pissing people off who liked him.

It's not so much that the male lead is dead and the rest of the game is all women, but the fact it started out as Joel as main character. Since tons of gamers are guys, most probably want a male lead in the game (whether it's Joel or another NPC who takes over or co-stars with Ellie).

If Last of Us was a franchise strictly with women leads (let's say like Charlie's Angels) and there's no male leads, or any semi male lead gets killed off so the game ends with all women, nobody would care because that is the norm for the series from the start.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

And in all those Alien and Terminator movies with Sigourney Weaver and Linda Hamilton being leads and kicking ass across multiple movies, how many times did they detour the plot (with aliens and robots chasing them) with jammed in lesbians making out, slow dances, and female villains with arms like Hulk Hogan?

Which of those things detour the plot? Cameron wasn't big on gay representation, sure, his woke politics were mostly focused on stuff like gender, war, corporations and eco-terrorism, he's had women like Vasquez and Sarah Connor's turn in Terminator 2 so the buff woman thing isn't really beyond him, your problem is just the degree of buff which is whatever to me. I don't think someone becomes more woke simply because a woman's arms are thicker or lesbians make out. Was Mother Russia in Kick-Ass 2 woke? I can't tell any more.

 

[Steve.1981]

That's deflection. The content doesn't change because of the politics of who made it, it just colors your view of it. It's still no more obviously woke than what I compared it to.



First of all... Alien wasn't James Cameron, ALIENS was. Also, he made Avatar because he admits to believing environmental terrorism, I can absolutely put wokeness upon him. Here's a Jim Cameron quote: “And he said: ‘OK, OJ Simpson for the Terminator.’ I was like: ‘Hey Mike! Bad idea! You’re going to have this black athlete chasing this white girl around LA with a fricking knife and a gun? We’re not doing that.’ Which was fortunate, but also unfortunate in that life ended up imitating art there.” and another “All of the self-congratulatory back-patting Hollywood’s been doing over Wonder Woman has been so misguided. She’s an objectified icon, and it’s just male Hollywood doing the same old thing! I’m not saying I didn’t like the movie but, to me, it’s a step backwards. Sarah Connor was not a beauty icon. She was strong, she was troubled, she was a terrible mother, and she earned the respect of the audience through pure grit. And to me, [the benefit of characters like Sarah] is so obvious. I mean, half the audience is female!”

I'd argue that he purposely makes the women stronger in his films. Even so TLOU was about Joel and Ellie finding strength through each other, not sure why we assume there will be no strong male leads in this game at all.

Kyle Reese dies and Sarah needs to take out the Terminator.
Hicks is badly injured and sits out the entire last third of the film. Bishop isn't human, he's a robot, he also gets ripped in half and never kills a single alien. Hicks also just parrots Ripley's ideas when he's given command and don't forget the ineffective Gorman or the spineless Burke.
I'd need to watch the Abyss again.
T-800 isn't human, again she speaks about how he's a better father because he isn't a human male. John's strength is how he cares in the film. Sarah Connor is the only physically strong human.
This one's fine but part of the idea of the movie is what a terrible husband he made for her by lying to her and that their relationship is strengthened when she learns the truth.
Notice he tends to have the man die at the end?
Jake is in a wheelchair and can only be strong by using science to transport himself into a different body, the men routinely need to be robots or inhuman to be strong whereas the women are strong in their natural forms like Neytiri or Michele Rodriguez's character... Vasquez, Sarah Connor, etc.
Evil characters are also nearly always men, I can't think of an evil woman in a James Cameron film off the top of my head... on top of all this we seem to be ignoring the first Terminator he had any involvement in since T2 is Dark Fate, the wokest one.

No woke lecturing? Watch the scene in Terminator 2 where Sarah lectures Miles Bennett Dyson on how men like him only know how to create destruction and don't know what it means to create a life and have it grow inside them, lol. I'm not sure about this lesser beings part, but Burke was looked upon as a lesser being than the aliens "you don't see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage".

What do you mean he'd never treat Joel that way? The male heroes in Cameron's work nearly always die or become incapacitated by the end. Killing Joel is exactly what he'd do, only he'd never have a woman do it because then you might have negative thoughts about that woman.
The men are also far more fallible and make worse mistakes, the women are always more ideologically correct and make fewer mistakes in judgment or otherwise.

I'm completely at odds with just about everything you're saying here.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Like when I said he'd never treat Joel like this. I didn't mean he'd never kill Joel. I meant he'd treat Joel with respect, even if he killed him. For example when he killed the ineffective Gorman, who goes out like a hero going back to save Vasquez, before they get caught. & Coffey, who is the obvious bad guy, but still you get that little scene when his sub falls over the edge. He & Linsay both instinctively reach out to one another, him reaching out for help, her reaching out to help. & Miles, who realised the horror of what he was going to create & gives his life to try & stop it. & Tsu'tey, who goes out like a total badass, putting himself at the front & taking on multiple soldiers.

I was comparing the way I think James Cameron treats his characters with respect, with how I don't think Neil Druckman has treated Joel or Ellie with respect, based on what I've seen.

& The lesser beings are the unwashed, uneducated masses who the wokesters look down on for not being as enlightened. I was saying James Cameron doesn't treat his audience that way, because he doesn't. Yes, he's a right on, bleeding heart liberal. That 's the message he pushes & it's almost fucking quaint these days. These woke clowns are a different breed. They are little Hitler's in the making. Mini authoritarians to a one.

As for your reading of those various characters & scenes from his films... I'll just say I think you're badly misrepresenting pretty much everything there. I stand by what I said. James Cameron is not one of the new liberal woke bullshitters. He's an old school liberal. To say he did the woke stuff first is, in my eyes, simply untrue. He's always pushed old style liberal, tree hugging, anti nuke, equal respect of the sexes stuff. I've always loved his work, partly because I believe in those same things, partly because his films are just badass.

& my whole post was meant as a light hearted tirade, kind of deal. Like I was writing seriously, in a joking way. But I can see looking at it again that it never quite came out that way.

& I know he didn't make the first Alien dude.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I'm completely at odds with just about everything you're saying here.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Like when I said he'd never treat Joel like this. I didn't mean he'd never kill Joel. I meant he'd treat Joel with respect, even if he killed him. For example when he killed the ineffective Gorman, who goes out like a hero going back to save Vasquez, before they get caught. & Coffey, who is the obvious bad guy, but still you get that little scene when his sub falls over the edge. He & Linsay both instinctively reach out to one another, him reaching out for help, her reaching out to help. & Miles, who realised the horror of what he was going to create & gives his life to try & stop it. & Tsu'tey, who goes out like a total badass, putting himself at the front & taking on multiple soldiers.

I was comparing the way I think James Cameron treats his characters with respect, with how I don't think Neil Druckman has treated Joel or Ellie with respect, based on what I've seen.

& The lesser beings are the unwashed, uneducated masses who the wokesters look down on for not being as enlightened. I was saying James Cameron doesn't treat his audience that way, because he doesn't. Yes, he's a right on, bleeding heart liberal. That 's the message he pushes & it's almost fucking quaint these days. These woke clowns are a different breed. They are little Hitler's in the making. Mini authoritarians to a one.

As for your reading of those various characters & scenes from his films... I'll just say I think you're badly misrepresenting pretty much everything there. I stand by what I said. James Cameron is not one of the new liberal woke bullshitters. He's an old school liberal. To say he did the woke stuff first is, in my eyes, simply untrue. He's always pushed old style liberal, tree hugging, anti nuke, equal respect of the sexes stuff. I've always loved his work, partly because I believe in those same things, partly because his films are just badass.

& my whole post was meant as a light hearted tirade, kind of deal. Like I was writing seriously, in a joking way. But I can see looking at it again that it never quite came out that way.

& I know he didn't make the first Alien dude.

Not treating Ellie with respect? Like I can't even with what you're saying. Even the Joel stuff you're pretending Joel dying is a positive thing to Druckman and not the turning point of the story where things go terribly wrong and changes everyone lives forever.

 

[Jon Neu]

She beat him, not through sheer brute strength or anything, but due to that skill

That’s not true, she overpowers Nate with sheer force along the fight. It’s not just her dodging and connecting, is her literally being physically more strong than Nathan.

And again, Nathan has fought hundreds of paramilitary soldiers with double the weight of Nadine, but somehow this little girl is the only one trained in combat who can beat his ass?

It’s literally fanservice for feminists. The scene of Nadine humilliating Nathan doesn’t add anything to the story, you could had the same results with a fight in which Nadine has bodyguards with her and it’s and unfair fight, but that will not fill the hearts of the feminists with joy. The scene is just feminist porn.

never saw this way tbh.

Spoiler

the men look like brute caveman because they basically are compared to her knowledge of what is happening, she know shit that 99,99% of men in that game don't know (all the futuristic stuff), but her knowledge and all the people being against her is an integral part of the plot, she is not smarter because unknown reasons...
the main villain is just a puppet in the hand of an evil IA and he choose to spare aloy during the beginning because of how weak and unimportant she was, not exactly a female power fantasy.


sylens is a fucking badass and even more capable than aloy at least regarding technology, and he has the last word during the ending, and he is a male.

She is far more smarter than men since the very first minute of the game, before she gains any special knowledge.

And you don’t need to be super strong since the beginning to be a female power fantasy, you can achieve it through the course of your journey so it actually feels earned.

That's deflection. The content doesn't change because of the politics of who made it, it just colors your view of it. It's still no more obviously woke than what I compared it to.

Hahahaha, thanks for the laughs, my not SJW friend.

The content is pretty much defined by the person who makes it, and the person who made it literally tells you he has a political agenda. He literally tells you that his agenda is inspired by the teachings of a crazy feminist who says: stop the male gaze, don’t sexualize women characters! And then Neil goes and designs all kinds of unnatractive women who dress like slobs, even reducing the tits of the actress who plays as Dina so it doesn’t attract the sinful male gaze.

You and some other SJW apologists try to run with the “you don’t have any proof this feminist trope was made for political reasons”. But yes, we have the word of God saying it, so all the silly damage control you can make simply amounts to nothing, you are wrong and we are right, it’s an objective truth that Neil Druckmann games have a political agenda and that he panders to his own political fantasies, which are commonly described as SJW.

You can accept it or you can continue to deflect, either way the fun still goes on.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

That’s not true, she overpowers Nate with sheer force along the fight. It’s not just her dodging and connecting, is her literally being physically more strong than Nathan.

And again, Nathan has fought hundreds of paramilitary soldiers with double the weight of Nadine, but somehow this little girl is the only one trained in combat who can beat his ass?

It’s literally fanservice for feminists. The scene of Nadine humilliating Nathan doesn’t add anything to the story, you could had the same results with a fight in which Nadine has bodyguards with her and it’s and unfair fight, but that will not fill the hearts of the feminists with joy. The scene is just feminist porn.



She is far more smarter than men since the very first minute of the game, before she gains any special knowledge.

And you don’t need to be super strong since the beginning to be a female power fantasy, you can achieve it through the course of your journey so it actually feels earned.




Hahahaha, thanks for the laughs, my not SJW friend.

The content is pretty much defined by the person who makes it, and the person who made it literally tells you he has a political agenda. He literally tells you that his agenda is inspired by the teachings of a crazy feminist who says: stop the male gaze, don’t sexualize women characters! And then Neil goes and designs all kinds of unnatractive women who dress like slobs, even reducing the tits of the actress who plays as Dina so it doesn’t attract the sinful male gaze.

You and some other SJW apologists try to run with the “you don’t have any proof this feminist trope was made for political reasons”. But yes, we have the word of God saying it, so all the silly damage control you can make simply amounts to nothing, you are wrong and we are right, it’s an objective truth that Neil Druckmann games have a political agenda and that he panders to his own political fantasies, which are commonly described as SJW.

You can accept it or you can continue to deflect, either way the fun still goes on.

So you're not familiar with death of the author, are you? Also I like the idea I'm an SJW. I should probably link you my facebook account sometime and let you peruse through my posts dating all the way back to like 2010 and tell me if it paints an SJW picture or not. Like as much as I care that I'm being mischaracterized... because I sorta do, I also kinda don't? I'm currently on a permanent ban from the community forums on rateyourmusic because of my right wing politics and how I argue them. I routinely get post-blocked on Facebook for "hate speech" and what they deem as "fake news". The thing is I never let my political views alter the media I consume. Why would I miss a good game because of a political agenda? Am I afraid the game will change my politics? Certainly not, I've voted a straight Republican ticket every election since 2004 when I was first old enough to vote.

You just straw manned me there. I didn't say those words. I would never deny Neil's agenda, what I'm denying is whether or not it taints the work entirely.

 

[Steve.1981]

Not treating Ellie with respect? Like I can't even with what you're saying. Even the Joel stuff you're pretending Joel dying is a positive thing to Druckman and not the turning point of the story where things go terribly wrong and changes everyone lives forever.

Yes, not treating Ellie with respect. I watched the scene with Abby just brutally smashing Ellie in the face with strong, solid punches. Again & again, till her face was a bloody, broken mess. To me, that's a disrespectful way to treat the character. I don't want to see that. & again, I'm not saying that Ellie can't struggle. I'm not saying that she can't suffer. I'm not saying that she can't lose a fight. I'm saying the execution of the idea of that scene feels badly off, to me.

& I never even hinted that I think Joel dying is a positive thing for Neil Druckman. I don't think that. At all. I think Neil Druckman thinks he's going to blow some tiny minds with his shocking story, but I never once said anything about him believing Joel's death to be a positive thing. So please don't put words in my mouth like that.

 

[JerryinSoCal]

Watched a couple of very short clips, Abby doesn't seem all that bad to be honest but that doesn't mean I'm ok with them killing Joel. I mean it makes sense from her characters point of view but this just seems way too soon to be pushing that in, especially if they kill Joel early in the game. This seems like something that should have been done in a third game not early on in the sequel it's just too soon. They should have added that character and let us get to know her and sympathize with her situation before having her kill Joel and then trying to make us like her after.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Yes, not treating Ellie with respect. I watched the scene with Abby just brutally smashing Ellie in the face with strong, solid punches. Again & again, till her face was a bloody, broken mess. To me, that's a disrespectful way to treat the character. I don't want to see that. & again, I'm not saying that Ellie can't struggle. I'm not saying that she can't suffer. I'm not saying that she can't lose a fight. I'm saying the execution of the idea of that scene feels badly off, to me.

& I never even hinted that I think Joel dying is a positive thing for Neil Druckman. I don't think that. At all. I think Neil Druckman thinks he's going to blow some tiny minds with his shocking story, but I never once said anything about him believing Joel's death to be a positive thing. So please don't put words in my mouth like that.

It's not glorified so it's not disrespectful. I really don't get this idea that our heroes can't be beaten up or they're being disrespected. What about the execution? The music is there to tell you what's happening isn't good, Abby's friend tells her to stop because she's going too far and Abby leaves conflicted about it. The scene is meant to implicate the destructive results of our thirst for vengeance. It is in no way meant to disrespect the characters, that's such a weird way to view it.

Well I can't tell what you mean when you say it's disrespectful then. Like your argument just makes no sense to me at all.

 

[Woggleman]

Everything created and especially art has the creators personally beliefs and views and tastes put into it. These aren't robots making things like they are some factory.

 

[DForce]

Yes, not treating Ellie with respect. I watched the scene with Abby just brutally smashing Ellie in the face with strong, solid punches. Again & again, till her face was a bloody, broken mess. To me, that's a disrespectful way to treat the character. I don't want to see that. & again, I'm not saying that Ellie can't struggle. I'm not saying that she can't suffer. I'm not saying that she can't lose a fight. I'm saying the execution of the idea of that scene feels badly off, to me.

& I never even hinted that I think Joel dying is a positive thing for Neil Druckman. I don't think that. At all. I think Neil Druckman thinks he's going to blow some tiny minds with his shocking story, but I never once said anything about him believing Joel's death to be a positive thing. So please don't put words in my mouth like that.

This happens in a lot of movies to make the character look broken.

Batman vs Bane
Black Panther vs Killmonger
Creed vs Viktor

I think it can work in a story, but I just don't like waiting until the next game to see the rematch.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

This happens in a lot of movies to make the character look broken.

Batman vs Bane
Black Panther vs Killmonger
Creed vs Viktor

I think it can work in a story, but I just don't like waiting until the next game to see the rematch.

Man, they totally treated Batman without respect with Bane... and lol Bane just some random character not set-up from the first two films? What a retcon to have R'has Al-Gul (sp?) have a daughter suddenly who wants revenge, SUCH LAZY WRITING!

 

[Jon Neu]

So you're not familiar with death of the author, are you?

You can indulge in extreme subjectivism, but we aren’t judging the videogame per se, we are judging the intention of the people making that videogame. And in that regard, the death of autor doesn’t apply, there’s nothing open to interpretation, the author has clearly expressed his intention and his bias and nobody can substitute it.

I’m a conservative, I swear!

Sure pal, and I’m a leftist. Nice to meet ya.

But the fact is that this isn’t your first rodeo doing damage control for SJW. One can argue is everything you have done.

I didn't say those words. I would never deny Neil's agenda, what I'm denying is whether or not it taints the work entirely

Yes, you were constantly trying to negate there is an agenda.

And now, seeing that you can’t negate it because the evidence is literally undeniable, you try to negate the extend of the agenda. Which is basically the same damage control tactic.

Cuckmann at this point is clearly too invested with the cause, it taints everything that is narrative related.

The core videogame aspects like gameplay mechanics, graphics and the rest are going to be fine, thank God.

 

[Steve.1981]

It's not glorified so it's not disrespectful. I really don't get this idea that our heroes can't be beaten up or they're being disrespected. What about the execution? The music is there to tell you what's happening isn't good, Abby's friend tells her to stop because she's going too far and Abby leaves conflicted about it. The scene is meant to implicate the destructive results of our thirst for vengeance. It is in no way meant to disrespect the characters, that's such a weird way to view it.

Well I can't tell what you mean when you say it's disrespectful then. Like your argument just makes no sense to me at all.

I never said our hero can't get beaten up or it's disrespectful. I specifically said I'm ok with characters losing, struggling, even dying as long as the scene is done (executed) right.

To me, how they decided to execute the "Ellie gets beaten up" scene is all wrong. They've went too far in their quest to shock, or whatever. I just hate it. That's my opinion, having no other context. It's how I feel about it right now. I've also said, more than once, that I could be wrong about this.

Honestly though, at the risk of sounding rude, I'm starting to not care if my opinions make any sense to you.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

You can indulge in extreme subjectivism, but we aren’t judging the videogame per se, we are judging the intention of the people making that videogame. And in that regard, the death of autor doesn’t apply, there’s nothing open to interpretation, the author has clearly expressed his intention and his bias and nobody can substitute it.




Sure pal, and I’m a leftist. Nice to meet ya.

But the fact is that this isn’t your first rodeo doing damage control for SJW. One can argue is everything you have done.




Yes, you were constantly trying to negate there is an agenda.

And now, seeing that you can’t negate it because the evidence is literally undeniable, you try to negate the extend of the agenda. Which is basically the same damage control tactic.

Cuckmann at this point is clearly too invested with the cause, it taints everything that is narrative related.

The core videogame aspects like gameplay mechanics, graphics and the rest are going to be fine, thank God.

You're asking me to argue on your terms when I don't need to. This is a leaks thread, we're discussing leaked footage, not strictly authorial intent.

I made my point, in terms of things like video games and movies I leave my politics at the door, art is more important than the current political climate, a piece of art will survive beyond the political attitudes that created it.

Where did I negate there is an agenda? Show me anywhere! I posted a day or two ago a long post that began with "There is no denying the agenda" right here! https://www.neogaf.com/threads/all-...d-nowhere-else.1538175/page-57#post-257991276

Um, no I didn't try to negate the extent, I'm arguing whether or not it ruins the art.

I never said our hero can't get beaten up or it's disrespectful. I specifically said I'm ok with characters losing, struggling, even dying as long as the scene is done (executed) right.

To me, how they decided to execute the "Ellie gets beaten up" scene is all wrong. They've went too far in their quest to shock, or whatever. I just hate it. That's my opinion, having no other context. It's how I feel about it right now. I've also said, more than once, that I could be wrong about this.

Honestly though, at the risk of sounding rude, I'm starting to not care if my opinions make any sense to you.

I was avoiding being rude myself, because the idea of caring about whether or not a character is treated with proper respect just sounds incredibly childish to me. Stick to games fronted by mascots and you'll be fine, I'm sure. If you want games fronted by humans it sounds like you'll be disappointed.

 

[GymWolf]

That’s not true, she overpowers Nate with sheer force along the fight. It’s not just her dodging and connecting, is her literally being physically more strong than Nathan.

And again, Nathan has fought hundreds of paramilitary soldiers with double the weight of Nadine, but somehow this little girl is the only one trained in combat who can beat his ass?

It’s literally fanservice for feminists. The scene of Nadine humilliating Nathan doesn’t add anything to the story, you could had the same results with a fight in which Nadine has bodyguards with her and it’s and unfair fight, but that will not fill the hearts of the feminists with joy. The scene is just feminist porn.



She is far more smarter than men since the very first minute of the game, before she gains any special knowledge.

And you don’t need to be super strong since the beginning to be a female power fantasy, you can achieve it through the course of your journey so it actually feels earned.




Hahahaha, thanks for the laughs, my not SJW friend.

The content is pretty much defined by the person who makes it, and the person who made it literally tells you he has a political agenda. He literally tells you that his agenda is inspired by the teachings of a crazy feminist who says: stop the male gaze, don’t sexualize women characters! And then Neil goes and designs all kinds of unnatractive women who dress like slobs, even reducing the tits of the actress who plays as Dina so it doesn’t attract the sinful male gaze.

You and some other SJW apologists try to run with the “you don’t have any proof this feminist trope was made for political reasons”. But yes, we have the word of God saying it, so all the silly damage control you can make simply amounts to nothing, you are wrong and we are right, it’s an objective truth that Neil Druckmann games have a political agenda and that he panders to his own political fantasies, which are commonly described as SJW.

You can accept it or you can continue to deflect, either way the fun still goes on.

she found a piece of tech equipment when she was a child and her living outside of the village makes her less susceptible to all the tribe matriarch bullshit, also she is literally the clone of one of the smartest women in the world, they are all good reason for her being smarter than tribe men and women.
Again, she is not smarter because unknown reasons.

 

[Steve.1981]

This happens in a lot of movies to make the character look broken.

Batman vs Bane
Black Panther vs Killmonger
Creed vs Viktor

I think it can work in a story, but I just don't like waiting until the next game to see the rematch.

Batman versus Bane would be a good example of a beloved character (Batman) taking a beating in quite a shocking way, without going too far and just treating him like a piece of shit. So there you go! It can be done.

Yeah, it could work. It does work in other stories. It could work in Last of Us 2. I've never said otherwise, I'm just talking about how I fell right now based on watching those scenes.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

So, just to be clear... people are claiming there's no possible way to get a hold of steroids in a post-apocalyptic setting? Wouldn't they be among the things most survivors overlook when looting stores? Shouldn't there be plenty to be found? Do they expire easily or something? I mean is it more unbelievable than people having new clothes or being clean shaven? In the Walking Dead they always have clean teeth.

 

[sneas78]

This is the standard now:

I can’t even... just why?
From this:

Hope we are all wrong and should eat crow. Hope we are wrong. Because if not it’s over.

 

[Steve.1981]

I was avoiding being rude myself, because the idea of caring about whether or not a character is treated with proper respect just sounds incredibly childish to me. Stick to games fronted by mascots and you'll be fine, I'm sure. If you want games fronted by humans it sounds like you'll be disappointed.

Ok then.

So it's incredibly childish that I'm just talking about these characters that I love. Just talking about how I feel. But it's not at all childish for you to be the typical internet smartass guy who everyone got bored with about 10-15 years ago. Who doesn't actually pay attention to the things he's replying to. Who puts words in other people's mouths, the better to attack. Who makes sweeping generalisations about the people he's replying to, based on things they didn't actually say. Who regularly descends into ALL CAPS BULLSHIT!!

Yeah. I couldn't care less what you think.

 

[Bloody Knuckles]

That’s not true, she overpowers Nate with sheer force along the fight. It’s not just her dodging and connecting, is her literally being physically more strong than Nathan.

And again, Nathan has fought hundreds of paramilitary soldiers with double the weight of Nadine, but somehow this little girl is the only one trained in combat who can beat his ass?

It’s literally fanservice for feminists. The scene of Nadine humilliating Nathan doesn’t add anything to the story, you could had the same results with a fight in which Nadine has bodyguards with her and it’s and unfair fight, but that will not fill the hearts of the feminists with joy. The scene is just feminist porn.

Its him facing an adversity he never faced before. The first fight after watching she connects with his nose off guard and then the majority of the fight she dodges and counter attacks him. She only over powers him once he has been rocked and how they say in fighting he is on shakey legs. Theres only about 2-3 times during the first fight you could say she over powers him but again he is being smacked around Flyod Mayweather counter wise. The fight was set up to lose no matter what, but thats because she you attack she automatically counters your attack.
Does it suck? Sure, but its not like she body slammed him etc.

 

[Jon Neu]

You're asking me to argue on your terms

I’m not asking you anything, I’m just saying it’s and objective truth the game was made with an agenda in mind.

Whatever you say literally doesn’t matter. Maybe if you invented a time machine and prevented Neil from becoming a SJW, then we could have something to discuss.

in terms of things like video games and movies I leave my politics at the door

That’s the point, Neil doesn’t.

I'm arguing whether or not it ruins the art.

At the very best it doesn’t make it better.

And so far, I have yet to see one woke narrative that has some quality to it. Most of the time, when the author is more preocupied with things like the male gaze and preventing the objectification of women, the overall piece isn’t as well made.

But you never know, there’s a first time for everything.

she found a piece of tech equipment when she was a child and her living outside of the village makes her less susceptible to all the tribe matriarch bullshit, also she is literally the clone of one of the smartest women in the world, they are all good reason for her being smarter than tribe men and women.
Again, she is not smarter because unknown reasons.

She was curious and smart before any of that happened.

Her being a clone doesn’t negate the trope, she’s a poster child for feminists around the world.

Horizon has a clear feminist and ecological bias, but is fascinating that only the feminist part is put in doubt by some.

 

[Jayjayhd34]

Could you not aurgue that nathen went easy on her because she's a woman sure remember him making comment in that regard. People aurging about realisium her would it be really realistic for the nathen we new to beat the living crap out of woman?

 

[Steve.1981]

That’s not true, she overpowers Nate with sheer force along the fight. It’s not just her dodging and connecting, is her literally being physically more strong than Nathan.

And again, Nathan has fought hundreds of paramilitary soldiers with double the weight of Nadine, but somehow this little girl is the only one trained in combat who can beat his ass?

It is true. Nadine doesn't overpower Nate with sheer force. She dodges the player's wild, swinging haymakers & counters with accurate hits. This progressively shakes Nate & eventually allows her to beat him. She lands several accurate punches & kicks. Like I said, Nate isn't Arnie.

This happens all the time in stories. The hero beats all the regular mooks routinely & so, to raise the stakes, a more serious adversary is introduced. Someone who isn't intimidated by the hero. Someone who can actually best them in some way.

I don't see the issue with Nadine at all. In fact I wasn't even aware of any issue with her until this week.

 

[Jon Neu]

Does it suck? Sure, but its not like she body slammed him etc.

Well, if it’s not like she didn’t body slammed him, then everything is fine

Sorry dude, but Nathan Drake has amazing athletic and physical capabilities, it’s impossible to believe he was tired after 20 seconds fighting a woman.

Theres only about 2-3 times during the first fight you could say she over powers him

Well, if it’s only 2-3 times...

And what about when she beats Nathan and Sam both at the same time?

Was that some Mayweather voodoo shit that drained the energy of our heroes in seconds too?

Would the actual Mayweather had any chance against Nadine?

If Nadine and Abby fought against each other, who would be the one smashed?

I know that one: the patriarchy.

Could you not aurgue that nathen went easy on her because she's a woman sure remember him making comment in that regard. People aurging about realisium her would it be really realistic for the nathen we new to beat the living crap out of woman?

He says that at the beginning, and then continues fighting and continues to get his ass kicked by this little woman.

We all know that scene serves no other purpose than to make feminists smug with joy.

 

[Bloody Knuckles]

Well, if it’s not like she didn’t body slammed him, then everything is fine

Sorry dude, but Nathan Drake has amazing athletic and physical capabilities, it’s impossible to believe he was tired after 20 seconds fighting a woman.



Well, if it’s only 2-3 times...

And what about when she beats Nathan and Sam both at the same time?

Was that some Mayweather voodoo shit that drained the energy of our heroes in seconds too?

Would the actual Mayweather had any chance against Nadine?

If Nadine and Abby fought against each other, who would be the one smashed?

I know that one: the patriarchy.




He says that at the beginning, and then continues fighting and continues to get his ass kicked by this little woman.

We all know that scene serves no other purpose than to make feminists smug with joy.

Indint agree with the 2-1 with the brothers what they should have done for that was play as each bro separately and have scripted events that separate them from each other and bring them back together at the end. Bate is no slouch but maybe she is trained better, she is a military leader for a reason even her wiki goes into detail about her background and whilst nate is the protagonist he still is maybe a cut above average. But if your a cut above average and you went against Amanda Nunes she'd would body even you im afraid so its not unrealistic that it can happen. And again she had the upper hand with the first attack and countered him the entire fight and rocked him. Not sure if you been in a fight before but when your rocked, your rocked and cant do much about it.
Mayweather would woop Nadines ass, but hes also the best boxer in the world. Nate is the best treasure hunter in the world lol

 

[Jbomb19]

We all know that scene serves no other purpose than to make feminists smug with joy.

What a sad little life you must lead to believe anything made that you don’t like MUST be some sort of conspiratorial agenda. lol I promise you, it ain’t that deep. You didn’t like Nadine? That’s cool, we all have opinions. But to say that scene was ONLY written, shot and created JUST to please your idea of boogey-feminists is utterly laughable.

I beg of you, stop believing that any piece of content that doesn’t align with your viewpoint is some kind of agenda-pushing plot. Free yourself from that mob mentality mindset.

 

[Jon Neu]

Not sure if you been in a fight before but when your rocked, your rocked and cant do much about it.

Again, Nathan has fought soldiers all the time, soldiers much more bigger than Nadine and he has bested them all. Soldiers that by the nature of their work, have to be trained in combat.

The notion that Nadine is the only one who knows martial arts and that somehow allows her to beat anybody is ridiculous.

In fighting sports, there are weight and gender differences for a reason. A run of the mill man in one fighting sport would utterly destroy the best woman in that sport.

 

[Woggleman]

I miss the days when you didn't have to worry about sneezing wrong because you might offend somebody.

 

[Jon Neu]

What a sad little life you must lead to believe anything made that you don’t like MUST be some sort of conspiratorial agenda. lol I promise you, it ain’t that deep. You didn’t like Nadine? That’s cool, we all have opinions. But to say that scene was ONLY written, shot and created JUST to please your idea of boogey-feminists is utterly laughable.

I beg of you, stop believing that any piece of content that doesn’t align with your viewpoint is some kind of agenda-pushing plot. Free yourself from that mob mentality mindset.

I appreciate how you are always on the background not doing much, but then sometimes you get triggered enough to comment on people’s lives.

And no, I do not believe that everything that I don’t like it’s put there for a conspiracy, I believe facts.

And the fact is that the creator of this videogames has stated that they are indeed filled with Anita Sarkeesian type of politics.

You can try to ignore that all you want, but facts aren’t going to change by you throwing a tantrum because you are incapable to admit that this videogames are filled with SJW tropes and agenda.

 

[Jbomb19]

I appreciate how you are always on the background not doing much, but then sometimes you get triggered enough to comment on people’s lives.

And no, I do not believe that everything that I don’t like it’s put there for a conspiracy, I believe facts.

And the fact is that the creator of this videogames has stated that they are indeed filled with Anita Sarkeesian type of politics.

You can try to ignore that all you want, but facts aren’t going to change by you throwing a tantrum because you are incapable to admit that this videogames are filled with SJW tropes and agenda.

what exactly is this agenda that’s got you so spooked?

 

[Steve.1981]

In fighting sports, there are weight and gender differences for a reason. A run of the mill man in one fighting sport would utterly destroy the best woman in that sport.

Come on man. This isn't true. There absolutely are women out there who can hold their own. I don't claim to be an expert in this area, but my brother in law is a fighter who is big into MMA & I listen to Joe Rogan (he has spoke about this kind of thing before). They both have a similar opinion. Yes, most men will overpower most women. But a well trained woman will rock even a well trained man if he doesn't take her seriously.

Open your mind a bit. You're pushing this pretty hard. What you're saying has some truth to it, but it's not as clear cut as you insist.

 

[Moriah20]

It is true. Nadine doesn't overpower Nate with sheer force. She dodges the player's wild, swinging haymakers & counters with accurate hits. This progressively shakes Nate & eventually allows her to beat him. She lands several accurate punches & kicks. Like I said, Nate isn't Arnie.

This happens all the time in stories. The hero beats all the regular mooks routinely & so, to raise the stakes, a more serious adversary is introduced. Someone who isn't intimidated by the hero. Someone who can actually best them in some way.

I don't see the issue with Nadine at all. In fact I wasn't even aware of any issue with her until this week.

Nadine is a terrible thing to add in a VIDEOGAME. Like, in a movie, sure, she'd be fine. But in a videogame? The game gives you the illusion of gameplay, but you are scripted to lose both fights anyway. It's utter bollocks, honestly. And you don't even get a 3rd fair go at her, instead she just leaves you to die. How fucking cool.

For me, LL actually made her worse because of how hard ND tried to make her likable. And she merely "left you" to die, keep that in mind. With Abby, they'll try to make her likable after she has brutally murdered the equavilent of Nathan Drake of TLOU.

 

[Jon Neu]

what exactly is this agenda that’s got you so spooked?

Playing dumb, how cute.

But it didn’t got me spooked at all, quite the contrary, Cuckman and it’s agenda are proving to be a source of quality entertainment and I’m absolutely loving every second of it.

Come on man. This isn't true. There absolutely are women out there who can hold their own. I don't claim to be an expert in this area, but my brother in law is a fighter who is big into MMA & I listen to Joe Rogan (he has spoke about this kind of thing before). They both have a similar opinion. Yes, most men will overpower most women. But a well trained woman will rock even a well trained man if he doesn't take her seriously.

Open your mind a bit. You're pushing this pretty hard. What you're saying has some truth to it, but it's not as clear cut as you insist.

Sorry dude, but no.

The differences between women and men are simply too big. Take any physical sport and the mediocre men would destroy the best women without any problem.

There’s simply no substitute for the astonishing differences in strenght and athleticism between men and women.