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David Jaffe on the lack of Game Design for GOTY awards

ZehDon

Member
While I don't disagree, it's worth nothing: these Awards are used to drive engagement with the givers, not to represent some meaningful codification within the industry. They will always - always - go to the games that would generate the most publicity, the most clicks, the most engagement. The Game Awards exist because the industry feels the need to celebrate itself in front of an audience, not because informed people of knowledge decided to hand out their own awards to represent perceived milestones. If a panel of industry legends worked together to hand out awards independently, for example, that would mean something. IGN's "Technical innovation" award is a laughing stock because its handed out by the people who argued that the human eye couldn't perceive differences in resolutions higher than 1080p. The fuck do these people know about anything?
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
It sure seems the less game making Jaffe does, the louder he gets. Then when he's making a game you never hear from him.

The guy's last good game was God of War II 13 years ago on PS2. I guess he needs the spotlight. Looks like he hasn't done anything since Drawn to Death except for a podcast.




In 2014, he announced his first project on his new studio The Bartlet Jones Supernatural Detective Agency called Drawn to Death as a PlayStation 4 exclusive.[7] The game received mixed reviews, and due to the cancellation of an unannounced title, his newfound company shut down a year later.[8]

Since leaving his previous company, Jaffe now primarily live streams his show, Gabbin' + Games, formerly The Jaffe Stream, via Twitch and YouTube. Here, he openly converses with his audience via live chat and Discord about the past and current state of the video game industry, world events, pop culture, politics, metaphysics, the paranormal and existentialism just to name a few.

Works[edit]​

 
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THEAP99

Banned
Games have evolved since the 90s. There is more meat to them than quriky gameplay.

As far as "game design" goes whatever that means, fortnite would probably win that every year considering it basically revolutionized the multiplayer genre and has by far the most "interactive" gameplay from any game in recent memory. You guys can laugh at that but it's the truth. There's a reason why a multitude of developers tried copying the the fortnite formula and still do today. There's a reason why fortnite basically brought all these normies into gaming.

A movie isn't a movie without compelling meat to it. That meat includes story and production. For a game, a game isn't a game without a compelling narrative and good gameplay. Idk why this guy is always so outraged over nothing. Game design includes all the moving parts of the puzzles these days, inlcuding story, soundtrack, combat mechanics, gameplay loop, etc..
 
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Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
A movie isn't a movie without compelling meat to it. That meat includes story and production. For a game, a game isn't a game without a compelling narrative and good gameplay.

"A game isn't a game without a compelling story and production."

Goodbye Chess. Goodbye Go. Goodbye Hide and Go Seek. Goodbye improv comedy. Goodbye football and futbol.

None of you are games apparently.

A game with great mechanics and mediocre production will always be superior to a game with great production and mediocre mechanics.
 

MagnesG

Banned
It sure seems the less game making Jaffe does, the louder he gets. Then when he's making a game you never hear from him.

The guy's last good game was God of War II 13 years ago on PS2. I guess he needs the spotlight. Looks like he hasn't done anything since Drawn to Death except for a podcast.




In 2014, he announced his first project on his new studio The Bartlet Jones Supernatural Detective Agency called Drawn to Death as a PlayStation 4 exclusive.[7] The game received mixed reviews, and due to the cancellation of an unannounced title, his newfound company shut down a year later.[8]

Since leaving his previous company, Jaffe now primarily live streams his show, Gabbin' + Games, formerly The Jaffe Stream, via Twitch and YouTube. Here, he openly converses with his audience via live chat and Discord about the past and current state of the video game industry, world events, pop culture, politics, metaphysics, the paranormal and existentialism just to name a few.

Works[edit]​

Ok so..

Back to the topic?

Another take from washed-up developer with beard.

Games have evolved since the 90s. There is more meat to them than quriky gameplay.

As far as "game design" goes whatever that means, fortnite would probably win that every year considering it basically revolutionized the multiplayer genre and has by far the most "interactive" gameplay from any game in recent memory. You guys can laugh at that but it's the truth. There's a reason why a multitude of developers tried copying the the fortnite formula and still do today. There's a reason why fortnite basically brought all these normies into gaming.

A movie isn't a movie without compelling meat to it. That meat includes story and production. For a game, a game isn't a game without a compelling narrative and good gameplay. Idk why this guy is always so outraged over nothing. Game design includes all the moving parts of the puzzles these days, inlcuding story, soundtrack, combat mechanics, gameplay loop, etc..
Are serious with this kind of posts? Fortnite for best game design every year?

A core for a movie is its plot I agree.
A core for a game is its .................

Then again Jaffe was saying the lack thereof of the award itself.

While I don't disagree, it's worth nothing: these Awards are used to drive engagement with the givers, not to represent some meaningful codification within the industry. They will always - always - go to the games that would generate the most publicity, the most clicks, the most engagement. The Game Awards exist because the industry feels the need to celebrate itself in front of an audience, not because informed people of knowledge decided to hand out their own awards to represent perceived milestones. If a panel of industry legends worked together to hand out awards independently, for example, that would mean something. IGN's "Technical innovation" award is a laughing stock because its handed out by the people who argued that the human eye couldn't perceive differences in resolutions higher than 1080p. The fuck do these people know about anything?
Sometimes I forgot that these awards are only passed out from the big halls of "game" journalists...

It's not really that hard to comprehend a good game design though.
 

bender

What time is it?
Sadly, most people do think in terms of design. You'd hope GDC awards would remedy some of davidjaffe davidjaffe 's the commentary.

I do think TLOU2 needs some design love in terms of accessibly. There was a ton of thought and care put into that implementation.
 

Keihart

Member
I'm happy with TLoU2 winning honestly, i mean, the game has good game design from combat to narrative ambitions, there is something to be said for the ambition and success on it that ND managed in the tittle.

I still find The Last Guardian and Death Stranding to be the more exiting games of the generation tho, with TLoU2 close behind them. Mostly because all of these 3 games have super high production while still being super ambitious in every aspect compared to most of the industry and all of them pretty much nail their concepts.

Edit: I agree with the sentiment that there should be category called best "design" but at the same time, the games that won are games with good design but at least a category like that would highlight smaller games since you can judge design without taking consideration into production values. At the same time, the final experience depends so much of every aspect of a game that i wouldn't go as far as to say that aspects as story, music or art design don't affect the game design itself and games should be judged for all them in interplay.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
But have they really? If anything, they've devolved IMO. It seems very few people even focus on gameplay anymore...
Ya. Depends on the game.

Anything to do with graphics, sound, modes, online etc..... all modern games are way better.

When it comes to gameplay, it's hit and miss. Off the top of my head, RPGs seem the most dumbed down. Modern RPGs seem heavily streamlined where the game maker basically hold your hand what to do or where to go. Every game (doesn't even have to be an RPG) seems to have markers, compass arrows, even fucking distance tracker like the giant red arrow to follow is 102 meters away. You might as well have Forza road markers to show the exact path to take.

I'm not saying make gaming so archaic that gamers have to get a pad of graph paper and make their own map (that's what automapping is for), but I got to say playing RPGs from the late 80s to now, it sure seemed more satisfying beating an RPG back then. And those games back then could be made very rigid if the dev didn't give you a break. Lose a key or kill an NPC and your entire game would be worthless as you can't progress.

Even sports games have a weird feel to them. The 60 fps is nice. But you got this weird gameplay mechanic to them where it seems half the time the game is going through motions you don't even want. Play any NBA 2k or Live game and it seems your feel for the gameplay is half you doing it, and half the game going through mandatory animations.
 
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davidjaffe

The Fucking MAN.
Another take from washed-up developer with beard.

Games have evolved since the 90s. There is more meat to them than quriky gameplay.

As far as "game design" goes whatever that means, fortnite would probably win that every year considering it basically revolutionized the multiplayer genre and has by far the most "interactive" gameplay from any game in recent memory. You guys can laugh at that but it's the truth. There's a reason why a multitude of developers tried copying the the fortnite formula and still do today. There's a reason why fortnite basically brought all these normies into gaming.

A movie isn't a movie without compelling meat to it. That meat includes story and production. For a game, a game isn't a game without a compelling narrative and good gameplay. Idk why this guy is always so outraged over nothing. Game design includes all the moving parts of the puzzles these days, inlcuding story, soundtrack, combat mechanics, gameplay loop, etc..
I just want to make sure I understand.

I'm a washed up developer, right? 20+ years in the biz, some huge hits, a few profitable titles, and 1 pure miss. I've owned 2 game companies and worked at and with Sony for 2 decades. Was there at the start of the Playstation, worked with them when discussions of PS5 launching were kicking off.

All of that- plus being a human- doesn't allow me the ability to express my views about something I love and know quite a bit about: video games.

You- however- a coward who posts under a fake name- move thru your life under the impression that your thoughts (based on...what? Who the fuck knows) should be given respect and attention, am I right?

Kindly find the biggest piece of broken glass you can find and shove it up your asshole, k? Thx! :)

I love you!

JAFFE!
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
It's not really that hard to comprehend a good game design though.

Potentially more difficult than you realize.

Consider the amount of NeoGAF (an enthusiast message board) threads pertaining to graphics, industry news, and sales vs the number of threads pertaining to game mechanics.

Graphics, industry news, and sales are all easy to comprehend and discuss. The value of certain gameplay mechanics is almost never brought up here.

That's not a knock on GAF. I think it's genuinely difficult to comprehend. We're not educated enough.
 
In this thread: Dave Jaffe thinks the only good games journos are ones who have made games??! The fuck am I listening to...

And I want to appreciate his passion but his rage just comes off as very 'grandpa on the porch'. They're still making the kind of games that you like, so why are you so pissed that the kinds of games that some others LIKE MORE are getting made, and yes, possibly championed, above 'old school' games?

For context, almost my entire playtime in the past 10 years is populated with shooters where I skip the cutscenes. I'm not disrespecting the designer's vision on message boards though, I'm just choosing how to spend my time. Unskippable cutscenes in games that arguably don't need them? Yes, I would understand your outrage. Lets just take a breather for a second.


Girl Why Dont We Have Both GIF
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
I am with Jaffe on this. We used to have game design awards before. I think its very important to have that award because I feel a lot of gamers nowadays just dont understand what makes a game great. I see so much trash that passes for campaigns nowadays. so many companies dont bother with level design at all and just put you in an open world and have you fight a bunch of enemies without really thinking about level design and combat scenarios. I think TLOU2 has fantastic game design, Dreams too, but tlou2 haters just cant understand that despite the game's story issues, the game is ridiculously fun to play and its combat scenarios are probably the best in the third person shooter genre.

Playing demon souls really made me appreciate what we have lost. Every enemy is meticulously placed. Every level has nooks and crannies that some designed muled over and added a risk/reward design to encourage you to explore. I have beaten the game over six times in the last month or so and i still have to change my loadout and really think about how to get past some of the enemy encounters in the game. I am not even talking about boss fights which are awful in 99% of the games nowadays. anything not coming out of japan is pretty much trash which is extremely disappointing since Jaffe himself released a game with fantastic bosses in gow and Cory took them to new heights in GoW2.

People really struggle to understand why games like Death Stranding are great. It's not because of the story or the soundtrack or Guilemo Del Toro's oscar winning performance. It's the game design. It's the fact that kojima and his game designers made just walking in a game an engaging, terrifying and ultimately a fun experience.

This reminds me of destiny's raid Vault of Glass which I still think its the best level in a game this gen. When the game came out, it was lambasted by the reviewers for being boring and weird. it didnt have the story, the characters, the soundtrack and the epic scale of halo, and they trashed it. And yet the game did very well with the actual players who quickly realized that the combat was fantastic and really came into its own when you unlocked better weapons and harder difficulties. the vault of glass was just one brilliant level but the combat design made nightfalls an amazing experience. We need to have game design, level design and combat design awards or just merge them into one award because ultimately, its not the soundtrack or nolan north that makes the game fun to play over and over again. it's the game design.
 
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THEAP99

Banned
I just want to make sure I understand.

I'm a washed up developer, right? 20+ years in the biz, some huge hits, a few profitable titles, and 1 pure miss. I've owned 2 game companies and worked at and with Sony for 2 decades. Was there at the start of the Playstation, worked with them when discussions of PS5 launching were kicking off.

All of that- plus being a human- doesn't allow me the ability to express my views about something I love and know quite a bit about: video games.

You- however- a coward who posts under a fake name- move thru your life under the impression that your thoughts (based on...what? Who the fuck knows) should be given respect and attention, am I right?

Kindly find the biggest piece of broken glass you can find and shove it up your asshole, k? Thx! :)

I love you!

JAFFE!
My bad
 
Another take from washed-up developer with beard.

Games have evolved since the 90s. There is more meat to them than quriky gameplay.

As far as "game design" goes whatever that means, fortnite would probably win that every year considering it basically revolutionized the multiplayer genre and has by far the most "interactive" gameplay from any game in recent memory. You guys can laugh at that but it's the truth. There's a reason why a multitude of developers tried copying the the fortnite formula and still do today. There's a reason why fortnite basically brought all these normies into gaming.

A movie isn't a movie without compelling meat to it. That meat includes story and production. For a game, a game isn't a game without a compelling narrative and good gameplay. Idk why this guy is always so outraged over nothing. Game design includes all the moving parts of the puzzles these days, inlcuding story, soundtrack, combat mechanics, gameplay loop, etc..
cd7.gif
 

Coolwhhip

Neophyte
I just want to make sure I understand.

I'm a washed up developer, right? 20+ years in the biz, some huge hits, a few profitable titles, and 1 pure miss. I've owned 2 game companies and worked at and with Sony for 2 decades. Was there at the start of the Playstation, worked with them when discussions of PS5 launching were kicking off.

All of that- plus being a human- doesn't allow me the ability to express my views about something I love and know quite a bit about: video games.

You- however- a coward who posts under a fake name- move thru your life under the impression that your thoughts (based on...what? Who the fuck knows) should be given respect and attention, am I right?

Kindly find the biggest piece of broken glass you can find and shove it up your asshole, k? Thx! :)

I love you!

JAFFE!

you made his day with this reply though 🙃
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I am with Jaffe on this. We used to have game design awards before. I think its very important to have that award because I feel a lot of gamers nowadays just dont understand what makes a game great. I see so much trash that passes for campaigns nowadays. so many companies dont bother with level design at all and just put you in an open world and have you fight a bunch of enemies without really thinking about level design and combat scenarios. I think TLOU2 has fantastic game design, Dreams too, but tlou2 haters just cant understand that despite the game's story issues, the game is ridiculously fun to play and its combat scenarios are probably the best in the third person shooter genre.

Playing demon souls really made me appreciate what we have lost. Every enemy is meticulously placed. Every level has nooks and crannies that some designed muled over and added a risk/reward design to encourage you to explore. I have beaten the game over six times in the last month or so and i still have to change my loadout and really think about how to get past some of the enemy encounters in the game. I am not even talking about boss fights which are awful in 99% of the games nowadays. anything not coming out of japan is pretty much trash which is extremely disappointing since Jaffe himself released a game with fantastic bosses in gow and Cory took them to new heights in GoW2.

People really struggle to understand why games like Death Stranding are great. It's not because of the story or the soundtrack or Guilemo Del Toro's oscar winning performance. It's the game design. It's the fact that kojima and his game designers made just walking in a game an engaging, terrifying and ultimately a fun experience.

This reminds me of destiny's raid Vault of Glass which I still think its the best level in a game this gen. When the game came out, it was lambasted by the reviewers for being boring and weird. it didnt have the story, the characters, the soundtrack and the epic scale of halo, and they trashed it. And yet the game did very well with the actual players who quickly realized that the combat was fantastic and really came into its own when you unlocked better weapons and harder difficulties. the vault of glass was just one brilliant level but the combat design made nightfalls an amazing experience. We need to have game design, level design and combat design awards or just merge them into one award because ultimately, its not the soundtrack or nolan north that makes the game fun to play over and over again. it's the game design.
To me, game design awards are fine, but to me has no real bearing on gamer fun or interest.

If it is, then I guess Roblox, Minecraft, GTA5, FIFA, COD and Fortnite are all among the best designed games in history because people love them and the user base is off the charts.

You can have a fantastically designed game, but it doesn't mean it's fun, nor gamers have to care about it. So it's one of those awards that's more of an industry pat on the back than for gamers to stare at.

There's awards given out to architects for the coolest/awesomest buildings but to the average person buying a home or company wanting to lease office space or a boring grey building as a warehouse, those awards mean little as the acclaimed product they made is little use for them.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
To me, game design awards are fine, but to me has no real bearing on gamer fun or interest.

If it is, then I guess Roblox, Minecraft, GTA5, FIFA, COD and Fortnite are all among the best designed games in history because people love them and the user base is off the charts.

You can have a fantastically designed game, but it doesn't mean it's fun, nor gamers have to care about it. So it's one of those awards that's more of an industry pat on the back than for gamers to stare at.

There's awards given out to architects for the coolest/awesomest buildings but to the average person buying a home or company wanting to lease office space or a boring grey building as a warehouse, those awards mean little as the acclaimed product they made is little use for them.
But that's exactly what awards are. The industry patting themselves on the back. It's true for every industry..

So the question is why sound design and not game design? Surely no one gives a shit about sound design aside from industry people.
 

davidjaffe

The Fucking MAN.
In this thread: Dave Jaffe thinks the only good games journos are ones who have made games??! The fuck am I listening to...

And I want to appreciate his passion but his rage just comes off as very 'grandpa on the porch'. They're still making the kind of games that you like, so why are you so pissed that the kinds of games that some others LIKE MORE are getting made, and yes, possibly championed, above 'old school' games?

For context, almost my entire playtime in the past 10 years is populated with shooters where I skip the cutscenes. I'm not disrespecting the designer's vision on message boards though, I'm just choosing how to spend my time. Unskippable cutscenes in games that arguably don't need them? Yes, I would understand your outrage. Lets just take a breather for a second.


Girl Why Dont We Have Both GIF
I have no idea where you get the idea that I think the only good game journos are ones who have made games.

I also have no idea where you get the idea that I don't think story, writing, performance should be awarded in GOTY categories.

In other words, you entire message seems to be based on a false understanding of my views. Maybe I simply communicate poorly. Or maybe you don't pay attention so good.

Also, what's wrong with 'grandpa on the porch'?
 
I am with Jaffe on this. We used to have game design awards before. I think its very important to have that award because I feel a lot of gamers nowadays just dont understand what makes a game great. I see so much trash that passes for campaigns nowadays. so many companies dont bother with level design at all and just put you in an open world and have you fight a bunch of enemies without really thinking about level design and combat scenarios. I think TLOU2 has fantastic game design, Dreams too, but tlou2 haters just cant understand that despite the game's story issues, the game is ridiculously fun to play and its combat scenarios are probably the best in the third person shooter genre.

Playing demon souls really made me appreciate what we have lost. Every enemy is meticulously placed. Every level has nooks and crannies that some designed muled over and added a risk/reward design to encourage you to explore. I have beaten the game over six times in the last month or so and i still have to change my loadout and really think about how to get past some of the enemy encounters in the game. I am not even talking about boss fights which are awful in 99% of the games nowadays. anything not coming out of japan is pretty much trash which is extremely disappointing since Jaffe himself released a game with fantastic bosses in gow and Cory took them to new heights in GoW2.

People really struggle to understand why games like Death Stranding are great. It's not because of the story or the soundtrack or Guilemo Del Toro's oscar winning performance. It's the game design. It's the fact that kojima and his game designers made just walking in a game an engaging, terrifying and ultimately a fun experience.

This reminds me of destiny's raid Vault of Glass which I still think its the best level in a game this gen. When the game came out, it was lambasted by the reviewers for being boring and weird. it didnt have the story, the characters, the soundtrack and the epic scale of halo, and they trashed it. And yet the game did very well with the actual players who quickly realized that the combat was fantastic and really came into its own when you unlocked better weapons and harder difficulties. the vault of glass was just one brilliant level but the combat design made nightfalls an amazing experience. We need to have game design, level design and combat design awards or just merge them into one award because ultimately, its not the soundtrack or nolan north that makes the game fun to play over and over again. it's the game design.

Reading this makes me think you DON'T necessarily agree with Jaffe on every point (and FFS, Kojima is a great game designer but he's an odd choice for anyone to reference if we're talking prioritizing great gameplay over all else--his game design philosophy is a little all over the map). The overall direction is well-taken though, and bonus points for Vault of Glass reference. As many missteps as Bungie has made with D2, they're no dummies. They know that was one of the best pieces of gameplay in the last 5-7 years and that's why it's being revitalized for the current offering. On a side note, obnoxious and somewhat broken Stasis powers (I'm looking at YOU hunter's shatterdive) aside, that sandbox is in an EXCELLENT place in terms of weapon balance, and the next gen console gamers finally get to experience high refresh Bungie shooting which should be a revelatory experience for the uninitiated.
 
I just want to make sure I understand.

I'm a washed up developer, right? 20+ years in the biz, some huge hits, a few profitable titles, and 1 pure miss. I've owned 2 game companies and worked at and with Sony for 2 decades. Was there at the start of the Playstation, worked with them when discussions of PS5 launching were kicking off.

All of that- plus being a human- doesn't allow me the ability to express my views about something I love and know quite a bit about: video games.

You- however- a coward who posts under a fake name- move thru your life under the impression that your thoughts (based on...what? Who the fuck knows) should be given respect and attention, am I right?

Kindly find the biggest piece of broken glass you can find and shove it up your asshole, k? Thx! :)

I love you!

JAFFE!
The Office Reaction GIF
 

davidjaffe

The Fucking MAN.
Are you doing a "2020 GOTY show" davidjaffe davidjaffe ? What are some of you favorite designed games this year?
I am indeed! It's a live stream on either Dec 30th or 31st. We'll be showing videos from members of their top 3, I'll be going thru my top 10 of the year, and giving out 'awards' (such as they are) for various categories that I think will be fun and/or interesting to debate/discuss/chat about.

As for some of my fave designed games, or games that at least DESERVE some design credit: BPM (the first ever rhythm shooter I can think of), Ultrakill (a game where the only way to get health is to bath in the blood of the enemies you must get close enough to kill), and UNPACKING (a game where the story/narrative is literally told thru items you remove from boxes).
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
But that's exactly what awards are. The industry patting themselves on the back. It's true for every industry..

So the question is why sound design and not game design? Surely no one gives a shit about sound design aside from industry people.
I replied to your first section which you said something about gamers not understanding what makes good game design. And that games have crap campaigns and shitty enemy placement.

To me, I don't think the average gamer thinks about or really cares. As long as the game is fun, looks good and runs well (ahem... 2077) and they can smoothly play with friends if it's an online game, that's what counts. The itty gritty stuff about whether an enemy is logically placed in a certain part of a dungeon vs. a mob of random goblins rushing you in a weird area you'd think would have zero goblins makes no diff to me. The key is which is more fun?

COD is annually the most played game, and when it consistently sells 20 million or so copies for over 10 years, people love it.

But in no way IMO are the games technically well designed at all. Canned campaigns, microtrans heavy, they'd have unlimited respawning enemies until you rush the checkpoint, for years had shitty P2P online connections where if the host leaves the entire lobby bombs out, bad respawn points in MP, each game that comes out seems to cheap out on maps. The old games would come with 14 or 15 out of the gate, now it's maybe 10 tops etc.....

IMO, Black Ops 1 had the worst hit detection boxes. Shooting people and then watching the kill cam, I'm getting hit markers on guys I missed by a foot. Yet I still got the kill. Same goes against me too. But people still love it.

On paper, it looks like a trainwreck. But people love it. And I like COD too. I don't play them like way back because I'm burnt out of them, but despite sketchy game design it's simply a fun game.
 
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bender

What time is it?
I am indeed! It's a live stream on either Dec 30th or 31st. We'll be showing videos from members of their top 3, I'll be going thru my top 10 of the year, and giving out 'awards' (such as they are) for various categories that I think will be fun and/or interesting to debate/discuss/chat about.

cant_watch_enough_futurama.gif


Sounds like you and the family should have some arts and crafts time and come up with an awards statue.
 

Kenpachii

Member
Another good point of discussion from David Jaffe. Given the state of these awards, these games would actually designs themselves to existence with no hard work. Other aspect of the games are more important apparently rather than the core interactivity of the game design.




Spot on. Dude is totally right here.

The awards are just there to feed there sponsors and there fans that visit the site at the end of the day.
 
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I have no idea where you get the idea that I think the only good game journos are ones who have made games.

I also have no idea where you get the idea that I don't think story, writing, performance should be awarded in GOTY categories.

In other words, you entire message seems to be based on a false understanding of my views. Maybe I simply communicate poorly. Or maybe you don't pay attention so good.

Also, what's wrong with 'grandpa on the porch'?

1. Dude, watch your own video...at 4:17. It's no fucking leap to say that you're insinuating that because they don't know game design from a firsthand perspective, they're not qualified to speak on the topic.

2. I never said that you said that.

And your views may be better communicated in a long form essay or a longer interactive discussion. Because apparently, they are quite easy to misunderstand.

Great, thought provoking topic and I appreciate you posting though. G'night and good health.
 

davidjaffe

The Fucking MAN.
1. Dude, watch your own video...at 4:17. It's no fucking leap to say that you're insinuating that because they don't know game design from a firsthand perspective, they're not qualified to speak on the topic.

2. I never said that you said that.

And your views may be better communicated in a long form essay or a longer interactive discussion. Because apparently, they are quite easy to misunderstand.

Great, thought provoking topic and I appreciate you posting though. G'night and good health.

It is a fucking leap. You don't need to have made a movie to know that the screenplay is important, along with the editing.

You don't need to have recorded an album to know that the producer of the record and sound mixer are important.

It has nothing to do with having done the job of a game maker. It has everything to do with needing to do the job of a GOOD journalist and UNDERSTAND/LEARN/EDUCATE YOURSELF about the thing you are reporting on.

As for #2, you wrote this 'They're still making the kind of games that you like, so why are you so pissed that the kinds of games that some others LIKE MORE are getting made, and yes, possibly championed, above 'old school' games?'

You are suggesting I only like 'old school' games (not accurate at all) and suggesting that I am pissed because OTHER games (i.e. the more 'modern story based games') are being championed. And I am saying I have no problem with those aspects of games being championed.
 

davidjaffe

The Fucking MAN.
There's nothing wrong with giving a game like Fortnite an award for game design.
100%. Even tho Starhawk tried it first, it was Fortnite that took fast action shooting and blended it with base building in a way that wasn't super niche and geeky. While you may hate the look of the game and may resent the mega success it has had, to ignore the fact that it brought something fresh to a shooter (a genre that stagnates pretty easily) and executed that idea in a way that even KIDS are able to 'grok' it is certainly worth appreciating at worst and awarding at best.
 
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bender

What time is it?
BPM (the first ever rhythm shooter I can think of),

It's like Doom and Crypt of the Necrodancer had a love child. Tell me it has a dope ass Opera singing shopkeeper.



Tetsuya Mizuguchi would be proud.
 
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davidjaffe

The Fucking MAN.
It's like Doom and Crypt of the Necrodancer had a love child. Tell me it has a dope ass Opera singing shopkeeper.



Tetsuya Mizuguchi would be proud.

Sorry, don't get the ref. :/


OHHH!!!! Bullets Per Minute? Goodness that game was amazing. Too hard but what a unique, fresh, cool take on a shooter! And when you get into the zone/fall into the music while shooting? It's like you are living in an action movie trailer.

Alas, no story, no voice acting, no 'look! games are art, ma!!!!' and thus, not a real game. I get it.
 
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K.S v2.0

Banned
Yea but why do that when you can just give every award to TLOU2?

Exactly.

Awards and standards are meaningless nowadays (since if the mentally ill didn't have double standards, they wouldn't have any standards), may as well just toss it over to the default posterma'am for mental illness and call it a day.

It sure seems the less game making Jaffe does, the louder he gets. Then when he's making a game you never hear from him.

Does make sense, I mean... if you're actually working on a game, you tend to be too busy to bother with the internet.
 
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Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
But have they really? If anything, they've devolved IMO. It seems very few people even focus on gameplay anymore...

They absolutely have.

There's no time period in human history where humans would prefer games from the 1990s over the games of today.

Today's games are objectively better.

Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.
 
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kretos

Banned
I just want to make sure I understand.

I'm a washed up developer, right? 20+ years in the biz, some huge hits, a few profitable titles, and 1 pure miss. I've owned 2 game companies and worked at and with Sony for 2 decades. Was there at the start of the Playstation, worked with them when discussions of PS5 launching were kicking off.

All of that- plus being a human- doesn't allow me the ability to express my views about something I love and know quite a bit about: video games.

You- however- a coward who posts under a fake name- move thru your life under the impression that your thoughts (based on...what? Who the fuck knows) should be given respect and attention, am I right?

Kindly find the biggest piece of broken glass you can find and shove it up your asshole, k? Thx! :)

I love you!

JAFFE!

giphy.gif
 
It sure seems the less game making Jaffe does, the louder he gets. Then when he's making a game you never hear from him.

The guy's last good game was God of War II 13 years ago on PS2. I guess he needs the spotlight. Looks like he hasn't done anything since Drawn to Death except for a podcast.




In 2014, he announced his first project on his new studio The Bartlet Jones Supernatural Detective Agency called Drawn to Death as a PlayStation 4 exclusive.[7] The game received mixed reviews, and due to the cancellation of an unannounced title, his newfound company shut down a year later.[8]

Since leaving his previous company, Jaffe now primarily live streams his show, Gabbin' + Games, formerly The Jaffe Stream, via Twitch and YouTube. Here, he openly converses with his audience via live chat and Discord about the past and current state of the video game industry, world events, pop culture, politics, metaphysics, the paranormal and existentialism just to name a few.

Works[edit]​

So he isn't allowed to voice his opinion just because he achieved more in life than you.
Okay.
 

Fredrik

Member
I am with Jaffe on this. We used to have game design awards before. I think its very important to have that award because I feel a lot of gamers nowadays just dont understand what makes a game great. I see so much trash that passes for campaigns nowadays. so many companies dont bother with level design at all and just put you in an open world and have you fight a bunch of enemies without really thinking about level design and combat scenarios. I think TLOU2 has fantastic game design, Dreams too, but tlou2 haters just cant understand that despite the game's story issues, the game is ridiculously fun to play and its combat scenarios are probably the best in the third person shooter genre.

Playing demon souls really made me appreciate what we have lost. Every enemy is meticulously placed. Every level has nooks and crannies that some designed muled over and added a risk/reward design to encourage you to explore. I have beaten the game over six times in the last month or so and i still have to change my loadout and really think about how to get past some of the enemy encounters in the game. I am not even talking about boss fights which are awful in 99% of the games nowadays. anything not coming out of japan is pretty much trash which is extremely disappointing since Jaffe himself released a game with fantastic bosses in gow and Cory took them to new heights in GoW2.

People really struggle to understand why games like Death Stranding are great. It's not because of the story or the soundtrack or Guilemo Del Toro's oscar winning performance. It's the game design. It's the fact that kojima and his game designers made just walking in a game an engaging, terrifying and ultimately a fun experience.

This reminds me of destiny's raid Vault of Glass which I still think its the best level in a game this gen. When the game came out, it was lambasted by the reviewers for being boring and weird. it didnt have the story, the characters, the soundtrack and the epic scale of halo, and they trashed it. And yet the game did very well with the actual players who quickly realized that the combat was fantastic and really came into its own when you unlocked better weapons and harder difficulties. the vault of glass was just one brilliant level but the combat design made nightfalls an amazing experience. We need to have game design, level design and combat design awards or just merge them into one award because ultimately, its not the soundtrack or nolan north that makes the game fun to play over and over again. it's the game design.
Thoughtful post. I think at the moment the indie scene is where the most unique game designs are to be found. The AAA scene is slowly evolving into very smilar game experiences, the devs all look at what sold the best and make their own version of that causing the variety to decrease. Comes with the increased dev cost and dev time I guess. Spending 5+ years and 100 million dollars on something unique you actually don’t have a clue if gamers will even like is obviously scary.
 

Jethalal

Banned
Awards don't mean jackshit in any pop-culture field.
Many deserving games don't get the credit they deserve due to the influence of a behemoth studio backing another game. Many times, juries don't even use all the product nominated.
Be it grammys, where TheWeeknd was snubbed this year so hard after making biggest song of the year-Blinding Lights and one of the top albums- After Hours. Even at the Oscars, rarely do deserving movies win, thankfully Parasite won this time.

Awards don't matter.
 

bender

What time is it?
Thoughtful post. I think at the moment the indie scene is where the most unique game designs are to be found. The AAA scene is slowly evolving into very smilar game experiences, the devs all look at what sold the best and make their own version of that causing the variety to decrease. Comes with the increased dev cost and dev time I guess. Spending 5+ years and 100 million dollars on something unique you actually don’t have a clue if gamers will even like is obviously scary.

Watching all of Ubisoft's games merge into one another has been fascinating. It's like the creature from Inside.
 
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