Hawks Eclipse
Member
Now here's a man of gaming culture.
Too bad Capcom doesn't see it that way enough to grant us a worthy remaster or even a remake of DMC.
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Too bad Capcom doesn't see it that way enough to grant us a worthy remaster or even a remake of DMC.
Halo is Back
Member
The only thing I didn't like about your video is that you laughed at the story category. Yea I get it, gameplay is extremely important to you but so is story to many gamers. I never would have beaten ME 1 without that great story and characters. The story will always last longer in my head and the feelings I had with games like TLOU. Average gameplay but amazing story, characters, and dialogue.
We should absolutely recognize achievements with story ESPECIALLY when they merge with gameplay effectively. Take RDR2 for example. I have NEVER played a game that made me change the way I actually play in game based on the outcome of the story. For the people who have played the game they know exactly what scene I am talking about. That game really did affect me on an emotional level and it will always stick with me.
Bolivar687
Banned
I suppose the problem is the market has spoken. These awards are for the games which the target audience are playing and the industry rallies around. I honestly haven't been to a gaming website or watched the Game Awards in years. Most of the articles I read about the titles I'm interested in are tech sites.
I'm not the biggest PC gamer in the world but I've been there almost exclusively in recent years because of the experiences that the design in strategy games provides. Every playthrough is different and you're always being presented with novel problems and choices. I'll buy a PS5 for Gran Turismo, but the direction Sony has been heading with first party doesn't really surprise anymore like it did during the PS3 era and before.
I'm not the biggest PC gamer in the world but I've been there almost exclusively in recent years because of the experiences that the design in strategy games provides. Every playthrough is different and you're always being presented with novel problems and choices. I'll buy a PS5 for Gran Turismo, but the direction Sony has been heading with first party doesn't really surprise anymore like it did during the PS3 era and before.
The Incarnation
Member
Pretty much sums up the Resident Evil 3 remake. If game design was as valued as it should be, then that game wouldn't exist in the stripped down form as it does now.
MrS
Banned
I'd like to report a murderI just want to make sure I understand.
I'm a washed up developer, right? 20+ years in the biz, some huge hits, a few profitable titles, and 1 pure miss. I've owned 2 game companies and worked at and with Sony for 2 decades. Was there at the start of the Playstation, worked with them when discussions of PS5 launching were kicking off.
All of that- plus being a human- doesn't allow me the ability to express my views about something I love and know quite a bit about: video games.
You- however- a coward who posts under a fake name- move thru your life under the impression that your thoughts (based on...what? Who the fuck knows) should be given respect and attention, am I right?
Kindly find the biggest piece of broken glass you can find and shove it up your asshole, k? Thx!
I love you!
JAFFE!
Yoboman
Member
What are your thoughts on rocket league? Its in a pretty similar space to a genre id argue you createdI just want to make sure I understand.
I'm a washed up developer, right? 20+ years in the biz, some huge hits, a few profitable titles, and 1 pure miss. I've owned 2 game companies and worked at and with Sony for 2 decades. Was there at the start of the Playstation, worked with them when discussions of PS5 launching were kicking off.
All of that- plus being a human- doesn't allow me the ability to express my views about something I love and know quite a bit about: video games.
You- however- a coward who posts under a fake name- move thru your life under the impression that your thoughts (based on...what? Who the fuck knows) should be given respect and attention, am I right?
Kindly find the biggest piece of broken glass you can find and shove it up your asshole, k? Thx!
I love you!
JAFFE!
Ever thought of doing a Twisted Metal with a Rocket League twist?
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davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
I suck at RL but I dig it tons. It's quite great!
As for TM, there's lots of ideas floating around but as Sony owns it, it's gotta be something they wanna go with. Two things on the horizon will- IMO- affect TM's chances of a comeback: the success and/or failure of DESTRUCTION ALLSTARS and the success and/or failure of the currently in development TWISTED METAL tv show.
FrostyLemon
Member
When I think about the rationale behind the nominees and winners of Game of the Year awards I always think to myself there's something being overlooked in the games media. The games that tend to get the most awards are AAA experiences that put emphasis on graphics, story and presentation. They also tend to be the most popular games of the year and reach the broadest audience.
To me this is absurd and is failing to identify what makes games special compared to other entertainment mediums and I totally agree with the video in this post. Gameplay and interactivity is what makes a video game special compared to a movie, tv series or book. Those three mediums are better at telling stories, writing dialogue or having emotional performances. Games will never catch up in that domain because they are always tethered to gameplay. The irony is to get the best graphics, presentation, mo cap etc you need a AAA budget, but in order to justify the AAA budget the gameplay needs to reach the broadest possible audience. You then potentially have a strange dichotomy like with TLOU2 where the story is super serious and the message is REVENGE IS POINTLESS, but the gameplay is boom boom kill kill have fun doing it. It's also very odd if you compare it to the Oscars. Lots of indie films and dramas end up winning Best Film and Best Actor awards because the academy are looking for examples that best represents the medium of film and these more intimate productions allow the actors, the dialogue and storytelling to do the heavy lifting. Those three things are arguably what makes movies special. If they copied what games do for their awards then the Avengers and Robert Downey Junior would be winning the awards every year. It just shows how juvenile gaming is in comparison.
No instead we should be giving awards to games like Hades which are a triumph in game design and gameplay first and foremost, and stop trying to embarassingly elevate games that have 'good stories' because that's what the other industries do. That's not what makes video games special, that's not what we should be focusing on.
To me this is absurd and is failing to identify what makes games special compared to other entertainment mediums and I totally agree with the video in this post. Gameplay and interactivity is what makes a video game special compared to a movie, tv series or book. Those three mediums are better at telling stories, writing dialogue or having emotional performances. Games will never catch up in that domain because they are always tethered to gameplay. The irony is to get the best graphics, presentation, mo cap etc you need a AAA budget, but in order to justify the AAA budget the gameplay needs to reach the broadest possible audience. You then potentially have a strange dichotomy like with TLOU2 where the story is super serious and the message is REVENGE IS POINTLESS, but the gameplay is boom boom kill kill have fun doing it. It's also very odd if you compare it to the Oscars. Lots of indie films and dramas end up winning Best Film and Best Actor awards because the academy are looking for examples that best represents the medium of film and these more intimate productions allow the actors, the dialogue and storytelling to do the heavy lifting. Those three things are arguably what makes movies special. If they copied what games do for their awards then the Avengers and Robert Downey Junior would be winning the awards every year. It just shows how juvenile gaming is in comparison.
No instead we should be giving awards to games like Hades which are a triumph in game design and gameplay first and foremost, and stop trying to embarassingly elevate games that have 'good stories' because that's what the other industries do. That's not what makes video games special, that's not what we should be focusing on.
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In Your Vase
Member
Glanced at thread, but stayed for the actual Jaffe
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
Said way better than I've ever been able to.
Do you mind if I tweet this out as long as I attribute it to you?
ZehDon
Member
I think really granular, or black box kinda stuff, like Best Game Engine would be too difficult to understand to actually make it work - is the best engine the one that is the easiest to use? the one that has the newest features? the one that works on the most platforms? - but something like UI Design is absolutely an award that should exist. A good UI is the culmination of dozens of disciplines all working together to make something that, when working well, you shouldn't think about. Good suggestion.
TaroYamada
Member
This is a bad take. Mario games have pretty much the same barebones narrative each entry. Some of the best games ever made. This would also mean most fighting games, which usually have pretty lame narratives are excluded as games. Since games require a "compelling narrative".
FrostyLemon
Member
the_master
Member
Everything you said, is wrong.
Game design IS what makes the game.
It can be a fun game, it can be a serious game, it can be an educational game, a sim, or an arcade. Game design is the fundamental piece in all of them. And every game needs a lot of design work to make it function and do what it needs to do.
How do you imagine a game is made? Just a bunch of programmers typing random code? If it is a sim,t here is nothing to design? it all magically comes in place and every sim game is the same because there is a unice way of making such a game?
How do you think a comfortable flat is made? By desiging it. By chosing the pieces, distribution, measurments, making sure the bathroom is big enough, has water access, that the kitchen can fit the needed furniture and it is in a conveniend shape, etc... Making a comfortable flat is about design, making it "Look cool" is "art design", not game design.
Int his awards they reward Art design, for example, but not game design and gameplay design.
Noboru Wataya
Banned
Can’t spell ignorant without...
01011001
Banned
it's my main reason why i don't read or watch any game reviews anymore no person doing them is even remotely interested in discussing, analysing or reviewing game design aspects of games.
game journalists are terrible, there are only a tiny handful of YouTubers that actually talk about game design aspects of games during their videos.
everyone else I ignore, including their meaningless awards given out by incompetent hacks
game journalists are terrible, there are only a tiny handful of YouTubers that actually talk about game design aspects of games during their videos.
everyone else I ignore, including their meaningless awards given out by incompetent hacks
SkylineRKR
Member
I consider Rez VR perhaps to be the best game of this generation. This game transcends generations in fact. A Dreamcast rail shooter, obviously made with VR in mind back then. It has no VA, barely any to no story, no AAA graphics. But its design is God tier. I'd wager to say its timeless.
Time will dictate classics. How will a TLOU2 hold up in 20 years? It will probably look like shit, and its representation issues might make people laugh for the wrong reasons. I think it was a good game mind you, very good, visceral and tense. But its basically very by the numbers AAA also; fairly linear, dramatic OST, usual suspect VA top dogs, weapon limits, no choices... I would rate RE3 higher within the genre in fact, I had much more fun with it, its pacing was better, its gameplay more fun to me.
Time will dictate classics. How will a TLOU2 hold up in 20 years? It will probably look like shit, and its representation issues might make people laugh for the wrong reasons. I think it was a good game mind you, very good, visceral and tense. But its basically very by the numbers AAA also; fairly linear, dramatic OST, usual suspect VA top dogs, weapon limits, no choices... I would rate RE3 higher within the genre in fact, I had much more fun with it, its pacing was better, its gameplay more fun to me.
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lock2k
Banned
This.
The best games don't even need stories. They're food for the mind.
Also, Jaffe made Twisted Metal and I'm forever grateful for that. Any PS1 TM game crushes any modern AAA.
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supernova8
Banned
Agree with him on this but disagreed with his sensationalist rant about the Brie Larson stuff. As far as I can see people just take the piss out of people whether they're men or women (because it's fun and we're anonymous on a forum so we can pretty much say anything with no repercussions - welcome to the internet). Either he is a fool and doesn't realise people like to goof off and say shit they don't really mean or he knows it and just wanted to paint GAF as a bunch of dickheads. Sure I'm a dickhead lol.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
It's ironic that GAMEplay is not held in higher regard for a medium called "video GAMES". Partly it might be because we take the gameplay for granted while the mass market is distracted by the shiny keys of pretty graphics and "cinematic" experiences. The other part is the nature of the corporate beast and the money involved. Spectacle is profitable and more marketable.
We're not going to get an awards show that honors what is actually important about video games until we create one without marketing as the goal. Not an easy task. Money talks and our voice is soft.
What would we rather prefer, this current reality where our hobby has mainstream appeal, or the not so distant past when we weren't cool?
We're not going to get an awards show that honors what is actually important about video games until we create one without marketing as the goal. Not an easy task. Money talks and our voice is soft.
What would we rather prefer, this current reality where our hobby has mainstream appeal, or the not so distant past when we weren't cool?
namekuseijin
Banned
ohgod
most games today have zero game design. They're just a sandbox or arena for kids to push buttons against each other all day long.
it's a real sad generation. Interaction means shit without purpose.
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lingpanda
Member
The design of a game while critical to the overall success of a game, isn't the end all be all for all games. I'm measuring success not by sells figures but rather replay ability. Let's take RDR2. The design choice to make character movement sluggish was a bad choice IMO. Was frustrating and not something I wish to see in future installments. But that story deserves recognition in addition to its voice actors. Started a new game game simply because of its story.
Now let's talk about a game where story was irrelevant but design was everything. Thats BOTW. The design choice for weapon fragility was terrible, but the design choice to give the player freedom to go anywhere from the start was perfect. I just had to see what was around the corner or on top of that mountain. The controls and mechanics was just fun to play. Can't wait to play BOTW2 not for story, but game design.
Now let's talk about a game where story was irrelevant but design was everything. Thats BOTW. The design choice for weapon fragility was terrible, but the design choice to give the player freedom to go anywhere from the start was perfect. I just had to see what was around the corner or on top of that mountain. The controls and mechanics was just fun to play. Can't wait to play BOTW2 not for story, but game design.
VN1X
Banned
Err that's kind of the point of a sandbox. They're meant for children lol.
ohgod
most games today have zero game design. They're just a sandbox or arena for kids to push buttons against each other all day long.
Hate on that particular genre (or concept in general) all you want but some of the best games out there incorporate "sandbox mechanics" where the player gets to dictate the pace and flow of the game themselves.
Not sure if serious but do you honestly believe this? Some of the most creative people/best minds are molded by simply tinkering away at things. Be it art, science, musicianship, craftsmanship, writing, etc. Honing skills if you will. Something that doesn't immediatly provide an obvious result or purpose isn't inherently bad. I mean have you seen some of the crazy things kids have come up with in Minecraft these days? These little shits are CODING in that fucking game lol.
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SSfox
Member
SSfox
Side note part 2: Just wanted to thank you! I got MGS working on Retroarch on XSX, might do a whole playthrough, I’m just after Revolver Occelot now. You’re right, what a marvelous game
Nice. Tell me about it when you finish it.
For me MGS to this day still has:
- The best boss fights and most charismatic bosses of all time
- Best story/twist of all time.
- Super revolutionary game, some idea you won't even find in modern game
- Best tutorial of all time, by make it organic with codec conversation
And so more.
The most genius game of all time imo, it all always been but replaying it recently remind me more of that.
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Fredrik
Member
Yeah my youngest one just turned 5 and has no trouble doing redstone machinery already, kids growing up today will no doubt make all us old asses look dumb.
Looking deeper I think physically they’ll be less capable though, which they’ll probably fix with some exoskeleton anyway.
Will do! Yeah I think the intro section up to the elevator alone beats just about any start of any game ever. Masterfully crafted.
For modern games The Heist in Cyberpunk 2077 pulls the same string for me. But as always with modern games it’s unnecessary complex, still awesome though.
Umbral
Member
Who takes risks in game design? Who would even qualify for a Best Design award anyway?
Kojima, Miyazaki, Arkane, and Yoko Taro. I may be forgetting a couple. It’s all safe and derivative.
When you make something and want to widen the appeal you inevitably end up sanding down all the offensive or risky edges on it until you get some smooth river rock of a game that feels nice, but isn’t exciting. I’ve played enough games that I can see what they’re doing almost from the jump. I’m buying fewer and fewer games because I don’t wanna play the same game eternally with a different skin on it.
Death Stranding took a chance and people gave Kojima Productions shit for it. The man and his team turned terrain traversal into a game. In every other open-world game traversal is just an interactive loading screen between missions with some mini-games if you want them. In Death Stranding you actually pay attention to the journey. That’s why we can’t have risk takers.
Kojima, Miyazaki, Arkane, and Yoko Taro. I may be forgetting a couple. It’s all safe and derivative.
When you make something and want to widen the appeal you inevitably end up sanding down all the offensive or risky edges on it until you get some smooth river rock of a game that feels nice, but isn’t exciting. I’ve played enough games that I can see what they’re doing almost from the jump. I’m buying fewer and fewer games because I don’t wanna play the same game eternally with a different skin on it.
Death Stranding took a chance and people gave Kojima Productions shit for it. The man and his team turned terrain traversal into a game. In every other open-world game traversal is just an interactive loading screen between missions with some mini-games if you want them. In Death Stranding you actually pay attention to the journey. That’s why we can’t have risk takers.
Fredrik
Member
It has a 82(PS4) and 86(PC) metascore, I’d say it’s more than okay for the genre. And traversal games are loved by tons of people, that’s why there is MudRunners and SnowRunners and MS Flight Simulator etc, the later has even been on some GOTY lists already. It’s just that vehicle traversal in general gets less negativity since it’s actually kinda cool to drive around in the mud getting stuck, plus too many thought DS was a different type of game because of Kojima’s past and got bored by the slower speed.
namekuseijin
Banned
a game is not science, nor music, writing, nor a sandbox nor a toy
a game is a goal with hardships in the way and play mechanics to overcome them
crafting Hogwarts in minicrap is not a game, doing crazy stunts for your YouTube channel in GTAO is not a game. But have fun in your kiddy sandboxes
VN1X
Banned
Umbral
Member
Snowrunner is not doing God of War numbers, which is my point. Every game has an audience, but if you want the widest audience, you have to water it all down to a grey sludge.
Fredrik
Member
Totally agree on that last part, it’s a real bummer. And in the case of Mudrunners it’s actually in a league of it’s own in what it’s doing techwise. The physics on the tires and mud will make even AAA racing games look insanely rushed. Imagine if GT, Forza, Dirt had those deforming tire tracks and that mud
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Umbral
Member
I agree. I’ve played both and their physics stuff is impressive. I’d love to see that kind of thing implemented in more games, when it makes sense. Death Stranding, as much as I love it, could use some help in the vehicle physics department.Totally agree on that last part, it’s a real bummer. And in the case of Mudrunners it’s actually in a league of it’s own in what it’s doing techwise. The physics on the tires and mud will make even AAA racing games insanely look rushed. Imagine if GT, Forza, Dirt had those deforming tire tracks and that mud
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
The first DMC had an epic final level. You see that in some parts of Bayonetta.
The underwater part in DMC was interesting at the time. The Ghost ship idea is always enjoyable to play. I’ve seen the ship being used in many newer games even when it’s not haunted. There’s always a boss or something (Mario 64, NiOh, Dark Souls 2, Trials of Mana, and even the Ferry from Ocarina of Time). Sometimes I would like to see something like Onimusha get made again. Doors that open with different colored gauntlets with just a handful of locations to visit. The challenge floors or the tower from Genma Onimusha. Everything opens up along the way. The open world genre can do stuff like that, but it’s always like a quick moment and it’s gone. The really good stuff gets tucked in to some small part on the map and a big chunk of the main game is played out in a big dramatic way. It’s as if it’s too abstract for the main quest. A good example was the Final Fantasy quest in Assassin’s Creed Origins. It made absolutely no sense to have it in game and it was over before it even started. What do the Crystals have to do with the Animus? They add the interesting stuff to add fluff to a game’s generic plot.
The underwater part in DMC was interesting at the time. The Ghost ship idea is always enjoyable to play. I’ve seen the ship being used in many newer games even when it’s not haunted. There’s always a boss or something (Mario 64, NiOh, Dark Souls 2, Trials of Mana, and even the Ferry from Ocarina of Time). Sometimes I would like to see something like Onimusha get made again. Doors that open with different colored gauntlets with just a handful of locations to visit. The challenge floors or the tower from Genma Onimusha. Everything opens up along the way. The open world genre can do stuff like that, but it’s always like a quick moment and it’s gone. The really good stuff gets tucked in to some small part on the map and a big chunk of the main game is played out in a big dramatic way. It’s as if it’s too abstract for the main quest. A good example was the Final Fantasy quest in Assassin’s Creed Origins. It made absolutely no sense to have it in game and it was over before it even started. What do the Crystals have to do with the Animus? They add the interesting stuff to add fluff to a game’s generic plot.
GaviotaGrande
Banned
Wrong thread!
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