Some of you can go on attacking Tlou 2 all they want, but that won't change the fact that Naughty Dog's next single player game will have the biggest production budget ever, as usual.
Live with it
Not at all. Horizon Zero Dawn began production in 2011 with a team of 20-40 people initially designing the concept. Clearly, you didn't pay sound engineers when the soundtrack production hadn't even begun. You also have contractors who only work temporarily on some parts. You have people moving to other projects when their job is finished, etc. It just doesn't work even as a ballpark estimate. It can grossly overestimate or even sometimes underestimate the actual budget.
The only thing we can rely on to guesstimate are other AAA games of the same caliber and $270M is approaching Cybperunk/RDR2 territory and GOW clearly isn't on that level.
Not at all. Horizon Zero Dawn began production in 2011 with a team of 20-40 people initially designing the concept. Clearly, you didn't pay sound engineers when the soundtrack production hadn't even begun. You also have contractors who only work temporarily on some parts. You have people moving to other projects when their job is finished, etc. It just doesn't work even as a ballpark estimate. It can grossly overestimate or even sometimes underestimate the actual budget.
The only thing we can rely on to guesstimate are other AAA games of the same caliber and $270M is approaching Cybperunk/RDR2 territory and GOW clearly isn't on that level.
I don't even think it's ballpark. And GOW being anywhere near Cyberpunk or RDR2 is nothing short of a farce. The only area where it might rival them is marketing. Production cost isn't even close, especially given the fact that they didn't even need to create new models for most major characters in GOWR, they had already made them in 2018 and simply enhanced them.
Cyberpunk took like 8 years to make and is three times the size of God of War Ragnarok in scope, scale, and complexity. I have no idea where that budget would even go.
I don't even think it's ballpark. And GOW being anywhere near Cyberpunk or RDR2 is nothing short of a farce. The only area where it might rival them is marketing. Production cost isn't even close, especially given the fact that they didn't even need to create new models for most major characters in GOWR, they had already made them in 2018 and simply enhanced them.
Cyberpunk took like 8 years to make and is three times the size of God of War Ragnarok in scope, scale, and complexity. I have no idea where that budget would even go.
$150M isn't cheap which is where I'd place GOWR, that's 3 times the estimated budget of Horizon Zero Dawn. Comparing it to Cyberpunk or RDR2 is just ridiculous.
Well. It's not like people bought game on multiple systems right? PS5 and PS4 owners have huge overlap.
There is also the case that Ghost of Tsushima as a new IP had similar sales as an established IP like The Last of Us.
And I'm not trying to say that TLOU 2 sold badly or anything. But when I look at sales of other high profile PlayStation Studios games like Spider-Man, God of War Ragnarok and Ghost of Tsushima, I would not be surprised if Sony expected better performance from TLOU 2. It would not surprise me if that game was most expensive PS Studios game considering tech behind it and number of devs (Naughty Dog has almost 800 devs, while Sony Santa Monica has less than 400)
a stated $100k salary costs a company a lot more than $100k. General rule of thumb is like 2x salary in the USA. Might be even higher in Europe. It’s in flux these days but that’s the general rule. But there’s also voice acting, testing, outsourcing, localization, etc that all add to the costs beyond the core dev team salaries
It moved over 10 million in less then a year and half, you telling me it should have been at 15 million in a year and half even with the first NEVER hitting those numbers in such a time frame?
To move half of what The Last Of Us 1 did in 6 years, in a year and a half isn't below expectations bud. The game is literally still selling and still charting.... with no PC version and no PS5 remaster yet.
Naughty Dog's The Last of Us Part II has been a major success on PlayStation 4, selling millions [...]
comicbook.com
The Last of Us Part II never officially dropped to $19.99 as it's still $39.99 on PS Direct.
However, the game did receive discounts and price drops prior to their official price drops. The Last of Us saw prices around 39.99 around October, which is 3 months and 24 days after its release, around the same time frame as God of War.
The price drops have been very similar to Sony's other major releases.
Doesnt matter how long or short of a game it is when the costs are measured in terms of number of employees + time spent on the game. GOW3 took 3 years and 250 employees. GOW Ragnorak took 4.5 years and 300 employees. Remember Cory has a 2nd team working on a new IP for the last 4.5 years.
I dont get how you dont see that your $270 million budget simply does not line up with game dev budgets we know of. HZD cost $45 million euros just five years ago. Game dev costs have increased but they havent even doubled, let alone quadrupled like you are suggesting. People arent making 5x more than they were making 10 years ago. They are making more or less the same.
Doesnt matter how long or short of a game it is when the costs are measured in terms of number of employees + time spent on the game. GOW3 took 3 years and 250 employees. GOW Ragnorak took 4.5 years and 300 employees. Remember Cory has a 2nd team working on a new IP for the last 4.5 years.
I dont get how you dont see that your $270 million budget simply does not line up with game dev budgets we know of. HZD cost $45 million euros just five years ago. Game dev costs have increased but they havent even doubled, let alone quadrupled like you are suggesting. People arent making 5x more than they were making 10 years ago. They are making more or less the same.
This. It just doesn't make sense. Marketing budget is often as much if not more than production budget so GOWR cost $500M+ to produce and market? At this rate, GTA VI will cost over $1B.
It moved over 10 million in less then a year and half, you telling me it should have been at 15 million in a year and half even with the first NEVER hitting those numbers in such a time frame?
To move half of what The Last Of Us 1 did in 6 years, in a year and a half isn't below expectations bud. The game is literally still selling and still charting.... with no PC version and no PS5 remaster yet.
Where elsewhere did I forced it? Jesus, calm down
Sequel of God of War sold 11 million copies in 3 months
Sequel of TLOU sold 10 million copies in almost two years
I just found it interesting. If you want to argue with things like "but Ragnarok is available on PS5 and TLOU 2 is not" than that's a pretty stupid argument tbh. Just move on. Put me on ignore and live your life happy
But I wonder if it don't put Naughty Dot at a awkward position. They needed almost two years to sell 10 million copies of TLOU2 on console that sold 120 million.
There is always one of these people who have to try and take a shot at TLOU2. Maybe you should keep in mind that TLOU2 wasn't bundled where Ragnarok comes with every single PS5 that has been sold over the past 3 months. TLOU2 had a very tiny amount of special PS4 Pros that it came with and that was it.
Curious, the tweet I linked earlier from the official Playstation account about this being the fastest selling game ever has been deleted. That’s curious.
Edit: Ok, now it’s back. Twitter really is unstable nowadays.
From the glass is actually half full side of the perspective, this is a massive compliment to Sony's first party lineup. How many other publishers can say their games sell so many copies that some people think a game with LOU2 sales was a flop? I bet the answer is ZERO.
It sold 4 million in just 3 days, and Ragnarok took 5 or 7 days to reach 5 million or whatever it was.
Either way, the game was on the same level sales-wise as Ragnarok during the launch. The Last of Us 2 was absolutely fucking massive with a marketing push just as heavy as Ragnarok.
Both Ragnarok and The Last of Us 2 likely sold between 6-8 million in the first month each. Both games crushed huge sellers like Spider-Man early on.
Then TLOU2 seemingly vanished.
Ragnarok flew past 10 million like it was nothing. TLOU2 should have flown past 10 million well before the end of 2020, easily, but for some bizarre reason, it completely stalled.
It sold 4 million in just 3 days, and Ragnarok took 5 or 7 days to reach 5 million or whatever it was.
Either way, the game was on the same level sales-wise as Ragnarok during the launch. The Last of Us 2 was absolutely fucking massive with a marketing push just as heavy as Ragnarok.
Both Ragnarok and The Last of Us 2 likely sold between 6-8 million in the first month each. Both games crushed huge sellers like Spider-Man early on.
Then TLOU2 seemingly vanished.
Ragnarok flew past 10 million like it was nothing. TLOU2 should have flown past 10 million well before the end of 2020, easily, but for some bizarre reason, it completely stalled.
I think it's a combination of mixed reception to Joel's death (or specifically, HOW he died in the game) combined with the negativity certain folks were spreading online about the game for culture war BS.
Personally I don't have an issue with Joel dying, but I think they could've had him go out with more gusto and where it wasn't such a convenience for Abby's group to get him. Maybe they address that or make some changes there in the future.
It sold 4 million in just 3 days, and Ragnarok took 5 or 7 days to reach 5 million or whatever it was.
Either way, the game was on the same level sales-wise as Ragnarok during the launch. The Last of Us 2 was absolutely fucking massive with a marketing push just as heavy as Ragnarok.
Both Ragnarok and The Last of Us 2 likely sold between 6-8 million in the first month each. Both games crushed huge sellers like Spider-Man early on.
Then TLOU2 seemingly vanished.
Ragnarok flew past 10 million like it was nothing. TLOU2 should have flown past 10 million well before the end of 2020, easily, but for some bizarre reason, it completely stalled.
One theory that I have is that the audience for TLOUII is just much smaller than with GOWR. The passionate fanbase came in drove during the first few days and it died down later on. It's a horror game after all and these don't have the same appeal as games like GOW or Spider-Man. That's why it initially outsold GOT 2:1 but then they ended up almost neck-and-neck after 2 years.
The last number we got was 9 million at its 2 year anniversary. If it had sold 10 million, i think they wouldve revealed it.
And of course TLOU2 is tracking higher than TLOU1. It sold 4 million in 3 days. Regardless, if you dont think selling 9 million in 2 years vs 11 million in 3 months is a big gap for two of Sonys biggest franchises then there is nothing more to talk about.
lol $10 million was the budget for Metal Gear Solid 2 in 2001. I don’t think a lot of people understand how expensive it is to employ these giant teams and build huge games with tons of content, high quality voice acting, cinematics that look movie quality, tons of testing and iteration over years, and put in a massive marketing push behind them. These games are really really REALLY big business, it’s not 1997 anymore, it stands to reason the budget is going to go up to match. The cost to so business is high and the sales numbers for hit games justify those expenses.
In fact the cost to do business is so damn high that I even think “AAA” studios are struggling to deal with it. Only a select few can actually make a game like Ragnarok these days.
Why are we going back to 2001 or 1997? I have repeatedly listed budgets for GOW3, TLOU and Uncharted games which came out just 10 years ago. HZD came out 6 years ago and cost $45 million euros. The game budgets are calculated based on number of years * number of employees +their salaries. Why are we assuming that everyone is making 2x-5x as much money as they were making 10 years ago?
If anything, this industry has a big burnout problem with most devs leaving in their 30s. These studios are full of rookie developers making far less than what you would pay senior developers with 10-20 years of experience.
I can promise you that if the game cost $270 million, Sony would not have allowed them to go beyond 3 years. They wouldve asked them to cut 2 out of the 6 open worlds in GOW and reduce the campaign length as well. Just one fewer year of dev time wouldve saved them $67 million!!! Jimbo wouldve been like cut the fucking crater area and ship in 2021 you cunts.
It sold 4 million in just 3 days, and Ragnarok took 5 or 7 days to reach 5 million or whatever it was.
Either way, the game was on the same level sales-wise as Ragnarok during the launch. The Last of Us 2 was absolutely fucking massive with a marketing push just as heavy as Ragnarok.
Both Ragnarok and The Last of Us 2 likely sold between 6-8 million in the first month each. Both games crushed huge sellers like Spider-Man early on.
Then TLOU2 seemingly vanished.
Ragnarok flew past 10 million like it was nothing. TLOU2 should have flown past 10 million well before the end of 2020, easily, but for some bizarre reason, it completely stalled.
Nice, in such short time too. Hopefully there next game by Cory isnt too far away and was being worked on.
Good to see Nintendo and Playstation games selling above 10m+ copies again and again
I dont get how you dont see that your $270 million budget simply does not line up with game dev budgets we know of. HZD cost $45 million euros just five years ago. Game dev costs have increased but they havent even doubled, let alone quadrupled like you are suggesting. People arent making 5x more than they were making 10 years ago. They are making more or less the same.
Trying to explain game budgets is likely not as simple as just comparing one game to another because the underlying variables are not all the same. Some studios cost a lot more to operate merely by their geographical location. I think people were rightfully shocked that Callisto Protocol, a linear 10 hour game with a modest 3-year dev cycle cost $160+ million to make. I think it would be fair to say that if that game was made in eastern Europe instead and not California, the budget would've been significantly lower. Similarly, Control 2 is being developed with a budget of only $50 million euros. That budget would not nearly be enough if the studio was located in a high cost of living city like London, San Francisco, Tokyo, etc.
Naughty Dog's The Last of Us Part II has been a major success on PlayStation 4, selling millions [...]
comicbook.com
The Last of Us Part II never officially dropped to $19.99 as it's still $39.99 on PS Direct.
However, the game did receive discounts and price drops prior to their official price drops. The Last of Us saw prices around 39.99 around October, which is 3 months and 24 days after its release, around the same time frame as God of War.
The price drops have been very similar to Sony's other major releases.
I know the price has shot up to about £25, but that's probably due to the Remake/ TV Series increasing demand.
But people keep saying it's saying at nearly full price when it's not.
It sold 4 million in just 3 days, and Ragnarok took 5 or 7 days to reach 5 million or whatever it was.
Either way, the game was on the same level sales-wise as Ragnarok during the launch. The Last of Us 2 was absolutely fucking massive with a marketing push just as heavy as Ragnarok.
Both Ragnarok and The Last of Us 2 likely sold between 6-8 million in the first month each. Both games crushed huge sellers like Spider-Man early on.
Then TLOU2 seemingly vanished.
Ragnarok flew past 10 million like it was nothing. TLOU2 should have flown past 10 million well before the end of 2020, easily, but for some bizarre reason, it completely stalled.
Yep. TLOU2's initial sales were almost cod like in the early Modern Warfare days. It outsold even Halo which used to do 3 million in a weekend. The GOW series never did numbers like that until just now. In fact, I remember Aaron Greenberg laughing at GOW3's 1.3 million sales in the first month listing together GT5, Uncharted, KZ and Resistance in a tweet saying they all sold fewer than Halo 3 did in the first month. Both TLOU and GOW are now huge franchises. But only one has legs u would expect from a game that sold 4 million in 3 days.
Naughty Dog are fine. The leaks really hurt TLOU2 launch. But Not many studios do better combat/gameplay and mixing it altogether than Santa Monica.
Also TLOU2 combat was way better than TLOU1
This is a thing only for people who live online and have a problem with this game where suddenly the game doesn't hold up story-wise with incredibly high-standards other games don't have to deal with.
For the rest of the people, it's an amazing game with an amazing story and fantastic gameplay.
Trying to explain game budgets is likely not as simple as just comparing one game to another because the underlying variables are not all the same. Some studios cost a lot more to operate merely by their geographical location. I think people were rightfully shocked that Callisto Protocol, a linear 10 hour game with a modest 3-year dev cycle cost $160+ million to make. I think it would be fair to say that if that game was made in eastern Europe instead and not California, the budget would've been significantly lower. Similarly, Control 2 is being developed with a budget of only $50 million euros. That budget would not nearly be enough if the studio was located in a high cost of living city like London, San Francisco, Tokyo, etc.
Sure. But GG is not a eastern european studio. They are based out of Amsterdam which is just as expensive a town as LA where SSM is based out of. And again, so is Naughty Dog and we have their numbers from just 9 years ago. Studio costs have undoubtedly increased. I will give you double since I am being nice. But 3-5x? come on.
And Callisto is a perfect example of bs accounting and infalted budget estimates. This studio was a one man studio until mid 2019. He then slowly started hiring and topped out at 120 employees. Most hired towards the end. Even if we assume that they were there for the full 3 years. Thats 100 devs for 3 years so $53 million a year? SSM had 300 devs work on this game for 4.5 years so 3x the cost for an extra 1.5 years. That would put GOW's budget at $600 million. Rockstar has 3000 devs working on one game at a time. Is GTA6 going to cost $5 billion?
The Callisto guy probably raised that much money from investors and pocketed most of it, and is now telling everyone that is what the budget was.
I know the price has shot up to about £25, but that's probably due to the Remake/ TV Series increasing demand.
But people keep saying it's saying at nearly full price when it's not.
Sure. But GG is not a eastern european studio. They are based out of Amsterdam which is just as expensive a town as LA where SSM is based out of. And again, so is Naughty Dog and we have their numbers from just 9 years ago. Studio costs have undoubtedly increased. I will give you double since I am being nice. But 3-5x? come on.
And Callisto is a perfect example of bs accounting and infalted budget estimates. This studio was a one man studio until mid 2019. He then slowly started hiring and topped out at 120 employees. Most hired towards the end. Even if we assume that they were there for the full 3 years. Thats 100 devs for 3 years so $53 million a year? SSM had 300 devs work on this game for 4.5 years so 3x the cost for an extra 1.5 years. That would put GOW's budget at $600 million. Rockstar has 3000 devs working on one game at a time. Is GTA6 going to cost $5 billion?
The Callisto guy probably raised that much money from investors and pocketed most of it, and is now telling everyone that is what the budget was.
I'm not arguing what the budget of GoW R is. I have no idea. I'm simply pointing out that there are other factors involved besides simply looking at a game's scope and presentation vs another game, especially when they're made by different studios in different parts of the world.
Doesnt matter how long or short of a game it is when the costs are measured in terms of number of employees + time spent on the game. GOW3 took 3 years and 250 employees. GOW Ragnorak took 4.5 years and 300 employees. Remember Cory has a 2nd team working on a new IP for the last 4.5 years.
i saw TLOU drop to $19.99 then $9.99 way earlier than any other major sony release. You are not losing your mind. It definitely got discounted relatively early.
Sony has more or less stopped that practice with the PS5. DS, Ratchet and Returnal. Even GT7 is very hard to find under $39.99. they are following that Nintendo model now.
The last number we got was 9 million at its 2 year anniversary. If it had sold 10 million, i think they wouldve revealed it.
And of course TLOU2 is tracking higher than TLOU1. It sold 4 million in 3 days. Regardless, if you dont think selling 9 million in 2 years vs 11 million in 3 months is a big gap for two of Sonys biggest franchises then there is nothing more to talk about.
Why are we going back to 2001 or 1997? I have repeatedly listed budgets for GOW3, TLOU and Uncharted games which came out just 10 years ago. HZD came out 6 years ago and cost $45 million euros. The game budgets are calculated based on number of years * number of employees +their salaries. Why are we assuming that everyone is making 2x-5x as much money as they were making 10 years ago?
If anything, this industry has a big burnout problem with most devs leaving in their 30s. These studios are full of rookie developers making far less than what you would pay senior developers with 10-20 years of experience.
I can promise you that if the game cost $270 million, Sony would not have allowed them to go beyond 3 years. They wouldve asked them to cut 2 out of the 6 open worlds in GOW and reduce the campaign length as well. Just one fewer year of dev time wouldve saved them $67 million!!! Jimbo wouldve been like cut the fucking crater area and ship in 2021 you cunts.