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[Mr.Phoenix]

yeah, which means it will affect the framerate. dont you game on pc? You cant test this out right now. run something at 1440p native, capture the framerate, then run it again at 4k dlss quality. you will get fewer fps. because it didnt free up resources. because it took resources from the gpu to get you that cleaner image.

i dont know why anyone on this board is refuting this. we've known this for over half a decade now.

wtf?

Come on man... If a game is running at 30fps and 1800-2160p DRS. So 33ms/frame, and using FSR 2. That 2ms is already in its render budget. Replacing FSR2 with PSSR will NOT AFFECT ANYTHING. What will happen instead however, is that using PSSR will instead allow them to not have to render the game at 1800-2160p. They can instead render it at 1296p - 1440p (hell even 1080p) and use PSSR to get that rez back up to 4K. No matter what or how you want to spin this, there will be a significant render cost savings from doing this, which would mean you get the added benefit of increasing the framerate. Isn't this exactly what the whole damn point of DLSS has been for the last 5 years????!!!

And your examples make no sense whatsoever. What they are doing here is trying to render 2160p with less of a cost. That is what the premise of PSSR is. So if you want to make examples, here is what you should answer. What is the cost of rendering natively at 2160p option A). and then what is the cost of rendering at 1440p natively and then using PSSR on top of that (option B)?

Please come back and tell me option B costs more than option A.

You keep on referencing PC, when if that is the case, then you should perfectly know what is being said here is true. The only way you do not get any kinda render benefit at all is if you are grossly CPU-limited. And the simple fact of the matter is that there are more games on the current-gen consoles that have a 60fps mode than games that don't. Which indicate that this CPU bottleneck is not as significant as you make it out to be.

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

Honestly, the bare minimum I expect from a Pro console is proper RT support for games, meaning something like vanilla Cyberpunk, RT Reflections, AO, Shadows and GI. Being an AMD GPU inside, I'm not that convinced. PSSR is a key feature if they hope to achieve that. Path tracing? Maybe on PS6...

 

[Senua]

How many times have you "been out" now?

 

[sncvsrtoip]

yeah, which means it will affect the framerate. dont you game on pc? You cant test this out right now. run something at 1440p native, capture the framerate, then run it again at 4k dlss quality. you will get fewer fps. because it didnt free up resources. because it took resources from the gpu to get you that cleaner image.

i dont know why anyone on this board is refuting this. we've known this for over half a decade now.

but you said it will takes majority of 45% which is no truth as fsr2 also take same amount of time (2ms)

 

[Clear]

Honestly, the bare minimum I expect from a Pro console is proper RT support for games, meaning something like vanilla Cyberpunk, RT Reflections, AO, Shadows and GI. Being an AMD GPU inside, I'm not that convinced. PSSR is a key feature if they hope to achieve that. Path tracing? Maybe on PS6...

There's zero point in facilitating function that devs will never be incentivized to build for the platform! Think bolt-ons, not reengineering,

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

I LOVE the defense force in here. It's the usual suspects. Keep fighting the good fight soldiers!

Who needs a defense force for a mid gen optional upgrade?

I know some thought we were getting PS6 level specs but to me this is a nice upgrade

Take your console warring somewhere else please

 

[LordOfChaos]

I dont see how this is a disappointment...

Same CPU yeah but you're going to be playing all the previous/current/near-future games on this, just like the PS4 Pro and One X.

If PS6 releases with a Zen2 CPU then sure yeah complain away.

Yeh

Take PS5 games, play them at higher resolution with RT/quality level details that don't force you to sacrifice performance mode/60fps, plus PSSR to offset a lot of it

Of course it was going to be the same generation CPU, it's the same generation console, we've already seen how this works last gen. The PS6 would have a new generation significantly more capable CPU, and probably more importantly dedicated AI accelerators.

 

[Senua]

Of course it was going to be the same generation CPU, it's the same generation console, we've already seen how this works last gen. The PS6 would have a new generation significantly more capable CPU, and probably more importantly dedicated AI accelerators.

People didn't expect a Zen 4 CPU or anything, but a 10% uplift is understandably disappointing to some.

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

How were they on Insomniac leaks. Asking for a friend.

How are various websites shaping up?

 

[Fake]

If people are acting like that with PS5pro specs imagine with the next Nintendo Switch.

 

[MasterCornholio]

How were they on Insomniac leaks. Asking for a friend.

How are various websites shaping up?

Haven't heard anything about the Pro leaking from Insomniac.

 

[Gaiff]

wtf?

Come on man... If a game is running at 30fps and 1800-2160p DRS. So 33ms/frame, and using FSR 2. That 2ms is already in its render budget. Replacing FSR2 with PSSR will NOT AFFECT ANYTHING. Hwta will happen instead however, is that using PSSR will instead allow them to not have to render the game at 1800-2160p. They can instead render it at 1296p - 1440p (hell even 1080p) and use PSSR to get that rez back up to 4K. No matter what or how you want to spin this, there will be a significant render cost savings from doing this, which would mean you get the added benefit of increasing the framerate. Isnt this exactly what the whole damn point of DLSS has been for the last 5 years????!!!

And your examples make no sense whatsoever. What they are doing here is trying to render 2160p with less of a cost. That is wwhat the premise of PSSR is. So if you want to make examples, here is what you should answer. What is the cost of rendering natively at 2160p option A). and then what is the cost of rendering at 1440p natively and then using PSSR on top of that (option B)?

Please come back and tell me option B costs more than option A.

You keep on referencing PC, when if that is the case, then you should perfectly know what is being said here is true. The only way you do not get any kinda render benefit at all is if you are grossly CPU-limited. And the simple fact of the matter is that there are more games on the current-gen consoles that have a 60fps mode than games that don't. Which indicate that this CPU bottleneck is not as significant as you make it out to be.

I think you two are talking past each other.

What I think Slimy is arguing is that 1440p upscaled to 4K is more costly than native 1440p which should be obvious.

 

[DenchDeckard]

I understand their points. When comparing to the ps4 pro, which had its own design issues, the ps5 pro seems like a step down in many ways, but i do feel there are some real positives here. As mentionedin the video, they do go against Cernys ethos of the ps5s narrow and fast approach and now they are going for a wide and slower design. This will be expensive but will help massively with actual next gen tech such as machine learning and ray tracing.

Couple that with the pssr and we will probably have a machine that what ypu see on screen is more visually performant than the specs alude to.

Can't wait to see it in action. It's going to be big and power hungry though. 350 to 400 Watts total?

 

[MisterXDTV]

People didn't expect a Zen 4 CPU or anything, but a 10% uplift is understandably disappointing to some.

Yes that is understandable but as I said previously about the GPU clocks, it seems clear to me that Ray-Tracing and PSSR are the main focus here...

And for a major ray-tracing upgrade probably they needed more CUs instead of higher clocks for both CPU and GPU

The power budget is limited in a console. You've got to choose carefully where to use it

I'm really surprised about the 60 CUs, I thought it was gonna be 54 to keep it multiple of 18

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Serious question, why are some folks only expecting a 30fps mode in GTA6? Are we really saying, that Zen2 architecture as a whole, is incapable of hitting 60FPS or more?

It’s bullshit assumptions

Every single dev, barring a few, offer 60 fps these days, including very technically demanding games like HFW

The games that only have 30fps are plagued with technical issues, and the CPU is not to blame. The flaw in everyone’s thinking is comparing CPU limitations on PC to closed console hardware and extrapolating that

Zen 2 is a massive upgrade from jaguar and perfectly capable of running current game logic at 60 fps

 

[FoxMcChief]

About what I expected. Not worth the cost of a new console in the same generation. I’ll happily stick with my PS5.

 

[LordBlodgett]

This all makes sense. They were already running the CPU at near it's max clocks, which is why they had to opt for liquid metal to cool it initially. The GPU increase is just done by adding more CU units. Overall it's a big enough upgrade to get me to bite, but also not close to next gen.

 

[shamoomoo]

People didn't expect a Zen 4 CPU or anything, but a 10% uplift is understandably disappointing to some.

But that's the difference between the PS5 and the Series X and in most games perform about the same give or take depending on the game. The modest uplift might make a difference in Sony case because their API is light.

 

[Magic Carpet]

It’s bullshit assumptions

Every single dev, barring a few, offer 60 fps these days, including very technically demanding games like HFW

The games that only have 30fps are plagued with technical issues, and the CPU is not to blame. The flaw in everyone’s thinking is comparing CPU limitations on PC to closed console hardware and extrapolating that

Zen 2 is a massive upgrade from jaguar and perfectly capable of running current game logic at 60 fps

IF GTA6 is available on the PS4 then I think it could do 60FPS jut like Horizon forbidden West.
But if it's developed just for the ps5 gen then I think there is a good chance it will be stuck at 30.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I think you two are talking past each other.

What I think Slimy is arguing is that 1440p upscaled to 4K is more costly than native 1440p which should be obvious.

And that is disingenuous because who is arguing that? Who is even doing that if what youa re aiming to do is get more performance?

As far as PS5pro devs use case scenarios go, these are the two options.

You are either taking the 30fps mode on the og PS5, be it that its running at 1440p-2160p, and you are dropping its render rez, and using PSSR. This should end up with you getting IQ on par with whatever you were doing natively, while getting more frames to boot.

Or, you are taking an already existing 60fps mode on the PS5 which probably is rendering natively at anywhere between 720p-1080p. And you are using the extra power of the PS5pro, and gettig that to a locked 1080p, then PSSR that up to 4K. or even something like 1800p while still maintaining that 60fps. Yes, this will cost more than just rendering the game at 1080p, but the PS5pro has enough GPU overhead here to cover the cost of PSSR and 60fps which would give an all-round better experience. If PSSR is half as good as its being suggested to be, you will end up with IQ better than if you had instead (for whatever reason) decided to render it at 1440p native.

Anyone pushing any other kinda use case scenario, to "highlight" problems there is no need to have, is being disingenuous.

 

[SlimySnake]

So that talk of it taking most of that 45% to handle the reconstruction is just nonsense.

Go on PC and try it yourself. i am not discussing basic dlss and fsr facts with you. FSR and DLSS roughly have a 20-30% cost when upscaling. Even cerny told DF that checkerboarding was not free. This is far more inline with DLSS and from the documents themselves have the same cost as FSR2.

You also cant say its taking an addition 250MB, when Sony has literally given devs 1.2GB more RAM to use on the PS5pro.

I literally said this.

its also taking up an additional 250 MB of ram which thankfully got a 1.2GB upgrade, but it definitely didnt free up anything.

I was replying to people saying PSSR will free up resources. PSSR like DLSS and FSR2 will have a cost. Cost on the GPU. cost on the ram. It is NOT free, let alone free up resources. That is literally false. its like saying 2+2=0. You cant expect me not to correct it.

And this is the issue I have with your conclusions, you talk like you and everything that has to do with consoles or game development exists in this digital vacuum. Whereas in practice, that couldn't be further from the truth. I mean we could literally have a situation where 1080P>4K PSSR returns IQ better than running 1800p native. And you will sit here and say that will not free up any resources? really?

Your approach to this is, well if it doesn't have this then everything else is useless (which I honestly think is a very limited or ignorant way of looking at things). Mine is that I have seen time without number that devs go about managing console resources in very interesting ways. I have also seen a fair number of games that have a 60fps mode. Fact of the matter is that there are more games with a 60fps mode than those without. Even Alan Wake 2 has a 60fps mode... and thats the poster child for UE5 third-party games currently. If the CPU was such a humongous bottleneck, I strongly doubt sony would have bothered wit hthis thing at all. I at least assume that we can all agree that sony has a better idea of what they are doing than any of us here?

zen 2 is a unique beast in that it doesnt perform up to its own specs. Especially on consoles with cut down cache and lower clocks where it performs like zen+ CPUs. Even on PC as you can see below.

Just look at how much Starfield scales based on CPUs. compare the 2600x which also had 6 cores and 12 threads and is more or less equivalent to the xsx and ps5 CPUs to the 7700x which also has 6 cores and 12 threads you will get a massive boost in performance approaching almost 80% or very close to 2x. Even if they simply switched to zen 4, and kept the clocks at 10%, they wouldve gotten a 50% boost to performance removing whatever bottlenecks the PS5 and XSX have when trying to hit 60 fps for these CPU heavy games like Starfield, Dragons Dogma, Gotham Knights and god knows what else because we sure as hell havent seen many next gen titles hitting the CPU.

And then there are RT games which also hit the CPU but im not going to regurgitate everything we've already discussed. You believe what you want to believe. We will see what happens when the console is released and how many games will have 60 fps modes with RT enabled. currently its a handful of games with most either leaving RT to PC only or removing it from the console 60 fps modes.

id just appreciate you dont act all incredulous when you see me post the same thing ive been posting with numbers and facts like you've never seen me say it before.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

IF GTA6 is available on the PS4 then I think it could do 60FPS jut like Horizon forbidden West.
But if it's developed just for the ps5 gen then I think there is a good chance it will be stuck at 30.

Explain Spider-Man 2

PS5 only, ray tracing at 60fps

There’s nothing mind blowing about GTA6 from a game logic standpoint that would prevent a 60fps mode

 

[Gaiff]

Explain Spider-Man 2

PS5 only, ray tracing at 60fps

There’s nothing mind blowing about GTA6 from a game logic standpoint that would prevent a 60fps mode

You literally haven't seen GTA VI running lmao.

 

[Rob_27]

There was talk of the limited psu in the video. Forgive me, is there no way to put a bigger lump in the box so to increase clocks etc?

 

[bender]

If people are acting like that with PS5pro specs imagine with the next Nintendo Switch.

I'm expecting at or maybe a little better than Steam Deck performance with some NVIDIA niceties. And to be fair, people cry about anything and everything without putting much thought into the advantages and disadvantages of hardware choices.

 

[StereoVsn]

What's the big "mystery"? Have they completely missed all the recent games running at absolutely abysmal resolutions in performance mode? Yes, 4K is "more than enough", but we're nowhere near 4K in most games.

I don't understand their confusion as to why a Pro is needed. It's incredibly obvious, and for them of all people (given what they do) it should be doubly so. Really weird!

The issue is that in any game which is hampered by CPU performance Pro may stabilize the frame rate but won’t get you 60fps when you have 30FPS.

 

[rickybooby87]

And that is disingenuous because who is arguing that? Who is even doing that if what youa re aiming to do is get more performance?

As far as PS5pro devs use case scenarios go, these are the two options.

You are either taking the 30fps mode on the og PS5, be it that its running at 1440p-2160p, and you are dropping its render rez, and using PSSR. This should end up with you getting IQ on par with whatever you were doing natively, while getting more frames to boot.

Or, you are taking an already existing 60fps mode on the PS5 which probably is rendering natively at anywhere between 720p-1080p. And you are using the extra power of the PS5pro, and gettig that to a locked 1080p, then PSSR that up to 4K. or even something like 1800p while still maintaining that 60fps. Yes, this will cost more than just rendering the game at 1080p, but the PS5pro has enough GPU overhead here to cover the cost of PSSR and 60fps which would give an all-round better experience. If PSSR is half as good as its being suggested to be, you will end up with IQ better than if you had instead (for whatever reason) decided to render it at 1440p native.

Anyone pushing any other kinda use case scenario, to "highlight" problems there is no need to have, is being disingenuous.

Also factoring in, that Sony's PSSR/Machine Learning component isn't ran across the shader cores like FSR2 is, it has dedicated "tensor cores" that will handle ai upscaling. So, 45% "faster" rendering in addition to dedicated ai upscaling hardware, very exciting stuff.

 

[Gaiff]

There was talk of the limited psu in the video. Forgive me, is there no way to put a bigger lump in the box so to increase clocks etc?

What do you mean? As in, a larger PSU that can deliver more power?

 

[SlimySnake]

but you said it will takes majority of 45% which is no truth as fsr2 also take same amount of time (2ms)

So we agree that PSSR which takes the same amount of resources to reconstruct an image as FSR2 will NOT free up resources?

Good. Because that is what i was referring to.

As for taking the majority of 45%. Thats me taking about the Sony example in the leaked docs that showed a game currently running at native 1080p on the base PS5 being reconstructed to a higher resolution on PS5 pro. So in that scenario, when there is no existing FSR2 being used then yes, it will take up the majority of that extra 45%.

In other games that are already using FSR2, it will not take up any of the 45%. But it will not free up any resources either because FSR2 and PSSR have the same cost.

 

[Rob_27]

What do you mean? As in, a larger PSU that can deliver more power?

Yes this.

 

[Fake]

I'm expecting at or maybe a little better than Steam Deck performance with some NVIDIA niceties.

I don't expect an ARM cpu beating the Ryzen inside Nvidia. Neither video memory or gpu clock.

Is already proving that use AI for threat image/pixel will be the key factor this gen, so the new NS will be a minor update with AI capabilities.

 

[shamoomoo]

This all makes sense. They were already running the CPU at near it's max clocks, which is why they had to opt for liquid metal to cool it initially. The GPU increase is just done by adding more CU units. Overall it's a big enough upgrade to get me to bite, but also not close to next gen.

Ryzen 4,000 can clock up to 4.0+ plus,the clock speed isn't at its limit.

 

[Buggy Loop]

CPU has nothing to do with render resolution or RT/PT support.

Then you don't know RT/PT enough

Which component you think has the geometry and has to keep extra overhead to prepare a tweaked version of that geometry and adjusts what needs to be sent to create a BVH structure?

The accelerated structure build is on GPU, the generation of the instance data is on CPU like every games because of collision detection and the management of LOD and culling, that is then uploaded to the GPU. All conditional questions such as is this "object obstructed, is this object.. etc" are historically done on CPU as they're good at branching out without stalling the entire pipeline, unlike GPUs which are highly parallel for vertex/texture processing.

On top that since you reflect the world accurately or have shadows coming from distant objects, then culling is a lot more kneecapped than typical rasterization solutions, you have to keep geometry that you don't directly see, typically a radius around the player is required. The movement of geometry in and out of the accelerated structure causes many memory requests and introduces CPU overhead. Then you limit number of AS builds and updates per frame right? Then you have graphical glitches with geometry popping before they are traced, etc. (but they still do it because it would kill CPU).

RT also has much more complex shader tables to generate and are costly to process on CPU. Sometimes can be avoided but typically incompatible with most modern games with dynamic shaders (branching conditional conditions).

There's countless topics on reducing CPU overhead caused by DXR ray tracing. Inline ray tracing improves CPU overhead by streaming but is limited in implementations.

Sony's Spider-man RT is heavy on CPU. This is known. There's so much transfer between CPU & GPU in that game that even the PCI-e bandwidth is important. maximum rt object range / very high geometry ray tracing / maximum crowd / traffic density, you'll be heavily CPU bound if you have an RDNA 2 CPU, even paired with a 4090.

Another example



So yeah. What I said earlier in the thread.

 

[Gaiff]

So we agree that PSSR which takes the same amount of resources to reconstruct an image as FSR2 will NOT free up resources?

Good. Because that is what i was referring to.

As for taking the majority of 45%. Thats me taking about the Sony example in the leaked docs that showed a game currently running at native 1080p on the base PS5 being reconstructed to a higher resolution on PS5 pro. So in that scenario, when there is no existing FSR2 being used then yes, it will take up the majority of that extra 45%.

In other games that are already using FSR2, it will not take up any of the 45%. But it will not free up any resources either because FSR2 and PSSR have the same cost.

I'm really not following what you're trying to say. PSSR upscaling 1440p to 4K could look almost as good as 4K while taking a bit more resources than native 1440p. What's the problem here?

Yes this.

I suppose but there are still limits to how far they'll go. It's not like they want 500W in there. Remains to be seen how much power the Pro consumes and what's the TDP.

 

[Gaiff]

CPU has nothing to do with render resolution or RT/PT support.

Huh what? CPU has a lot to do with ray tracing.

Nothing to do with resolution though.

 

[Magic Carpet]

Explain Spider-Man 2

PS5 only, ray tracing at 60fps

There’s nothing mind blowing about GTA6 from a game logic standpoint that would prevent a 60fps mode

I hope GTA6 has more going on than what SM2 had on offer. But I've not played either game so I don't know what kind of magic SM2 is using.

 

[SlimySnake]

wtf?

Come on man... If a game is running at 30fps and 1800-2160p DRS. So 33ms/frame, and using FSR 2. That 2ms is already in its render budget. Replacing FSR2 with PSSR will NOT AFFECT ANYTHING.

Gaif is right. We are talking past each other. I am literally saying the same thing. Both FSR2 and PSSR have the same cost but do have a cost so to say they will free up resources is ridiculous.

What will happen instead however, is that using PSSR will instead allow them to not have to render the game at 1800-2160p. They can instead render it at 1296p - 1440p (hell even 1080p) and use PSSR to get that rez back up to 4K.

Actually, i will have to confirm this but i am pretty sure the lower you reconstruct from, the higher your frametime cost becomes. I vaguely remember Alex doing tests on this and the cost from 1440p reconstructed to 4k was like 1 ms while the cost from 1080p to 4k was 2 ms. So no, it wont free up resources either way. it will look better because FSR2 quality mode looks worse than DLSS performance mode in motion but it wont free up resources.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I will not get into any CPU stuff, cause we can at least agree that if a game is CPU bottlenecked on the base PS5, then ethere is little that can be done for the framerate on the PS5pro. Hell I have also been saying that for months now. My argument on that however was that we shouldn't act like EVERYTHING on the PS5 is CPU bottleneked and stuck at 30fps. I had also saiod that anything that has a 60fps mode on the PS5, will be cleaned up on the PS5pro.

Now as for the other stuff...

Go on PC and try it yourself. i am not discussing basic dlss and fsr facts with you. FSR and DLSS roughly have a 20-30% cost when upscaling. Even cerny told DF that checkerboarding was not free. This is far more inline with DLSS and from the documents themselves have the same cost as FSR2.

FSR2, DLSS and PSSR have a cost of about 2ms. That is NOT 20-30%. That is 2ms. If your render frame is 16ms, its about 15%. If its 33ms, its around 7%. And again, we are talking about a use case scenario here when these games are already suing some sort of reconstruction. Be that FSR, TAAU, TSR...whatever. So you are not adding much of anything to the render budget by adding PSSR to the frame time, because for the most part its replacing something that is already there.

I literally said this.

I was replying to people saying PSSR will free up resources. PSSR like DLSS and FSR2 will have a cost. Cost on the GPU. cost on the ram. It is NOT free, let alone free up resources. That is literally false. its like saying 2+2=0. You cant expect me not to correct it.

If this was just about it beig free or not, I wouldn't be saying anything. Because you are right, there will be a cost. But my argument is that that cost has been accounted for. You can legit say, PS5pro is xxx more p[owerful than the PS5. So when it takes a PS5 game, drops the rez, then adds some RT and PSSR, are we still on a performance net positive? or have we suffered? You make it sound like we will be suffering when in reality, we will not. There will be a net performance and IQ gain.

All costs considered.

 

[CGNoire]

Pretty Shit Upgrade honestly.
They should just cancel it to be frank.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

You literally haven't seen GTA VI running lmao.

Why does that matter?

Is it going to have RT? Just turn it off if it breaks 60 fps

Are there going to be destructible physics that will break Zen 2 cpus or is it just going to be a pretty city with sluggish third person controls?

We all know what to expect here. Rockstar should have the chops to offer a 60fps reduced quality mode

 

[Xyphie]

No one should really go in expecting PSSR to improve frame rates as such when every new game basically already uses FSR2 (or TSR etc). "1440p PSSR Quality" is going to have more or less the same frame rate as 1440p FSR2 Quality, much like DLSS and FSR2 basically performs within frames of each other at equal scaling factors.

The only way PSSR can really meaningfully improve the frame rate is if it's good enough to use lower scaling factor e.g. "PSSR Balanced or Performance" and have a lower input resolution but still come out ahead of FSR2. Expect better quality, not performance.

 

[bender]

I don't expect an ARM cpu beating the Ryzen inside Nvidia. Neither video memory or gpu clock.

Is already proving that use AI for threat image/pixel will be the key factor this gen, so the new NS will be a minor update with AI capabilities.

Depends on what Nintendo decides to do with the chip configuration and how much memory they decide to go with and since it is Nintendo, it's safe to assume they'll be really conservative. I still think it is safe to assume performance in the ballpark of Deck/PS4.

 

[Senua]

Why does that matter?

That should be obvious lol

 

[Gaiff]

Why does that matter?

You can't be serious.

Is it going to have RT? Just turn it off if it breaks 60 fps

Are there going to be destructible physics that will break Zen 2 cpus or is it just going to be a pretty city with sluggish third person controls?

We all know what to expect here. Rockstar should have the chops to offer a 60fps reduced quality mode

Rockstar always raises the bar when it comes to technology and GTA VI is perhaps the most hyped game of all time. Maybe you're right and it'll just be an enhanced GTA V or maybe not and it'll be some insane game with simulations that put everything else to shame. No one knows for now because no one outside of Rockstar has seen anything approaching a final build. You can't use any game out at the moment to draw comparisons.

 

[MisterXDTV]

I'm really not following what you're trying to say. PSSR upscaling 1440p to 4K could look almost as good as 4K while taking a bit more resources than native 1440p. What's the problem here?

Exactly, I expect PSSR's aim is to give players 4K-like quality but without that crazy cost of rendering on the GPU

I posted yesterday the internal resolutions for DLSS

Quality: 2560x1440

Balance: 2227x1253

Performance: 1920x1080

Ultra Perf: 1280x720

I think PS5 Pro has the power to reach at least "Balance mode" resolution (1253p) before applying PSSR

 

[SlimySnake]

FSR2, DLSS and PSSR have a cost of about 2ms. That is NOT 20-30%. That is 2ms. If your render frame is 16ms, its about 15%. If its 33ms, its around 7%. And again, we are talking about a use case scenario here when these games are already suing some sort of reconstruction. Be that FSR, TAAU, TSR...whatever. So you are not adding much of anything to the render budget by adding PSSR to the frame time, because for the most part its replacing something that is already there.

See my post above. I will run some tests in various games and report back.

If this was just about it beig free or not, I wouldn't be saying anything. Because you are right, there will be a cost. But my argument is that that cost has been accounted for. You can legit say, PS5pro is xxx more p[owerful than the PS5. So when it takes a PS5 game, drops the rez, then adds some RT and PSSR, are we still on a performance net positive? or have we suffered? You make it sound like we will be suffering when in reality, we will not. There will be a net performance and IQ gain.

All costs considered.

The cost has been accounted for in current games that feature FSR2. I was still talking about that example in the sony doc which was talking about 1080p native game. hence the confusion.

And Ive already said several times in the other thread that PS5 will be able to improve an RT game like Avatar from 720p internal to 1080p due to the RT changes despite the meager 45% CPU thanks to the enhanced RT performance. Of course there will be a net positive. I even outlined why i believe it can do Path Tracing in cyberpunk. The thing is that Avatar is already 60 fps with RT on consoles and is one of the rare handful of games to do so. And cyberpunk is not going to run at 60 fps with RT on the PS5 Pro.

 

[Fake]

Depends on what Nintendo decides to do with the chip configuration and how much memory they decide to go with and since it is Nintendo, it's safe to assume they'll be really conservative. I still think it is safe to assume performance in the ballpark of Deck/PS4.

Knowing Nintendo I quite sure they will be very cheap again.

I mean, Nintendo Switch use a TEGRA from 2010. They sure will profit, but nothing to be presented as a piece of technology.

Using DLSS on the next NS will be already a win for Nintendo. Otherwise, looking at the specs documentation we can expect the same let down.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Gaif is right. We are talking past each other. I am literally saying the same thing. Both FSR2 and PSSR have the same cost but do have a cost so to say they will free up resources is ridiculous.

Resources will be freed up. It just depends on how you are approaching teh problem.

Assume you are on a 3080. In scenario A, you are running at 1440p native. But you want to run at 4k using DLSS quality. In this case, you are gaining IQ, but you are not freeing up resources. If anything you are losing. Because 1440p+DLSS costs more than just 1440p+TAA.

But that is not what the PS5pro is doing. What the PS5pro is doing, is taking a game running on a 10TF GPU, and to begin with, puts that on a 16TF GPU. But it takes that a step further, it drops the rez from 2160p to 1440p (or even 1296p). This simple act, has saved you a LOT of resources. Then it uses PSSR to get that to 4k. In this case, you are freeing up resources because it cost less doing 1296p/1440p+PSSR than just doing native 4K+TAA.

Actually, i will have to confirm this but i am pretty sure the lower you reconstruct from, the higher your frametime cost becomes. I vaguely remember Alex doing tests on this and the cost from 1440p reconstructed to 4k was like 1 ms while the cost from 1080p to 4k was 2 ms. So no, it wont free up resources either way. it will look better because FSR2 quality mode looks worse than DLSS performance mode in motion but it wont free up resources.

Yes. this is true. And I have referenced this. This is why i have also been using the 1080p>4K 2ms example sony gave because that represents a worst case scenario of the tech. If you are reconstructing from 1440p>4K instead, it would cost you less than 2ms.

 

[RoadHazard]

The issue is that in any game which is hampered by CPU performance Pro may stabilize the frame rate but won’t get you 60fps when you have 30FPS.

Yes, but games that do achieve 60 but with terrible image quality will still achieve 60 but with potentially really good image quality. And games that pretty much reach 60 but not consistently might get the extra push they need to fully get there (again with better image quality). These cases cover most PS5 games, there are only a handful that are actually stuck at 30.

With the 2-4x increase in RT performance we might even get some current 30fps RT modes bumped to 60.

But no, games that are 30fps because of CPU limitations (GTA VI might be one) won't magically become 60fps.

 

[bender]

Otherwise, looking at the specs documentation we can expect the same let down.

But I'm not let down which circles back to my original comment.