Support NeoGAF

[EP8]

All Sony has to do at E3 is say "No DRM." and walk off the stage. I hope they don't pull some sh*t like this

 

[Dizzy]

Oh wow. I didn't read it all before..

Third party publishers may opt in or out of supporting game resale and may set up business terms or transfer fees with retailers.

So not only can third party publishers choose to disallow resale, but they can demand a transfer fee if they want. No doubt this will be passed onto the customer via higher game prices.

EA must be loving this right now.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

If Sony were doing differently, they would have said so by now. They've remained eerily quiet

 

[sunnz]

Why do you need Sony's plans to not be angry?

I mean if SONY do the same/ similar ( unlikely) then I have to... deal with it in a sense and will show my anger/disappointment to both companies ( 99% to sticking to the PC most likely ).

What I said came out wrong

 

[Askherserenity]

Remember when Harrison told Kotaku it'd be once every 24 hours and then Microsoft said that was a "potential scenario" lol

Really high percentage I guess...

 

[prag16]

Its actually much better than i thought even if it still shitty

Doesn't sound awful and I'm glad they cleared some stuff up. I don't understand why they waited so long though.

It sucks, but it sucks less than before. I still have issues with the Kinect and 24 hour check though, this is at least a start.

I don't know... it's still pretty fucking shitty.


I guess some people have already succumbed to the door in the face technique...

You thought it could be "extremely shitty", but now that it's only "very shitty" should be just accept it??

 

[lenovox1]

31 million Xbox 360 owners never got a Silver or Gold Xbox Live account and hardly ever connected to the internet whatsoever.

31 million

butLOL no big deal guys, it's the future! You buy a physical copy of a thing and don't actually own it! Hurray!

Let's make sure that everybody in all the land knows this.

 

[Woo-Fu]

At this point, it really couldn't be clearer - Xbox One was made for publishers, not for us.

Can't blame them, they don't have the internal studios to survive without major publisher support. They have to offer a sweeter deal to those publishers to even maintain parity with what Sony has.

^^^That 31 million number is probably closer to 15 million after we factor out RROD.

 

[devious.one]

If it turns out Sony is doing similar "features", i'll eat my hat and buy a WiiU the next day just to show my support for a system that doesn't do this.

 

[RyanReedyMusic]

no

Oh so you really dont want to be able to loan?

Your not buying the console anyways right?

So how could this matter to you?

 

[dancmc]

This policy doesn't make me not want to buy the next Xbox, but it will likely mean that I won't buy as many games on release date anymore. I am trying to figure out if I care at all about these policies.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

The most important part.

You can give your game to a friend (once) but you can't loan your discs.

They say you can sign on at your friends place, but I lend out discs all the time. That's how my friends share games. We are adults.

Incredible.

Never during the last month did I think they would actually make it worse.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

I stand corrected. I just saw something on that page that I didn't see before, or read past.

Microsoft does not receive any compensation as part of this. In addition, third party publishers can enable you to give games to friends. Loaning or renting games won’t be available at launch, but we are exploring the possibilities with our partners.

I honestly didn't think the earlier stuff about publishers was significant, but this part makes it sound different. In other words, what it means is that Microsoft are pretty much not enforcing a strict standard on the Xbox One that all developers and publishers have to follow. They are pretty much leaving it up to the publishers to decide whether or not they want their game to be lendable or resellable.

Less promising for some of the features that I liked as described, no doubt, but if publishers are making their own rules on their own games, then that's about as open ended a system as you could hope for. If publishers don't allow certain things to happen with their games, and they are punished when it comes to sales, maybe they will change course in future releases.

 

[EvB]

31 million Xbox 360 owners never got a Silver or Gold Xbox Live account and hardly ever connected to the internet whatsoever.

31 million

butLOL no big deal guys, it's the future! You buy a physical copy of a thing and don't actually own it! Hurray!

There are probably 31 million users who never bought a game new and literally purchased a loss leading hardware device to play nothing but used games.

Nobody wants those customers, those are like those dicks in the coffee shop who buy the cheapest drink they can get, then sit on a sofa for 6 people using the internet on their laptop for 7 hours straight, whilst keeping their headphones in.

I hate those guys.

 

[Dizzy]

So you can't sell games privately unless you've been friends with the person for 30 days and gift it to them. You can only gift a game once.

Games can be resold or traded in at participating retailers, if the publisher of the game has enabled this functionality.

Not clear on what this family sharing is about.

Renting's no longer a thing?

Loaning?

All in all it sounds kind of shit, but better then when Phil Harrison said there'd be fees involved.

Microsoft won't charge a fee but publishers have that option.

 

[jimbor]

It seems the word is getting out to the non forum following, non hardcore masses.

Taken from my facebook tonight:

DO NOT buy a new XBOX One system for your kids when the time comes. No matter what they say, they are in the process, the steps of making it impossible to resale a paid for product, in order to make others have to buy the game themselves. They are trying to backtrack on this now and say that isn't the case, but it is definitely what they are trying to do. Do you want to buy your kids, a system for $400+, spend at least $200 in games in a year, and then get nothing in return when the kid beats the game in 2 days and replays it a few times for about 2 weeks, you've got a $59.99 paper weight. This is an eventuality. Right now they are saying you can trade games in, still, and resale at gamestop, etc.. However it is going to be much harder to just slap them on Facebook with a for sale sign, or at your spring yard sale, because people are going to have to buy a code just to play them, after they pay you for the game. So that makes you, the reseller, have to sale dirt cheap, near giving it away, in order for someone to buy your games at your yard sale. The heck with Microsoft. I'm going with the slightly more Eastern company and going with Sony, or a Nintendo U, if and when my kids upgrade gaming systems. This kind of thing just bugs the crap outta me. Wait til they decide we can't resale our cars, eventually, when a person has to pay some fee to Ford or Chevy after they buy a used car, on top of all the other taxes and title changes, etc..

 

[AppleMIX]

I still can't believe people are trying to defend this.

 

[Knoxcore]

I think Stump's post is spot on. I think the disconnect is that lots of people (myself included) do not understand and have not been sold on the idea of a digital-only games console. The only reason I think people have not rejected it out of hand this time around is the strength of the Xbox brand (compare and contrast it to the PSP Go, I suppose). That's my personal sentiment.

It's going to take very significant sweeteners to overcome that resistance to a digital-only console because I don't understand why you are doing this. The market is not evaporating or in serious contraction, we have a very vibrant retail presence, we have very active secondary and private markets.

I think I need more than just pricing to get me over this. I know I am in a premium hobby; I don't mind paying lots of money because I'm into the ritual of it all. But lots of the problems that the Steam client solved (patching being one of them) don't apply here and the only arguments people can muster are focused on publisher well-being (frankly they can all get fucked).

I'm very concerned.

I'm okay with digital only...but I must own it outright. I must be able to play it whenever I want, regardless of internet connection. There cannot be an intrusive DRM that requires a ping to the server every hour or so.

 

[BigDug13]

No MSP on the Xbox One.

Will they put a quarter in an envelope and send it to me for my Birthday then?

 

[Nokterian]

 

[JohnnySasaki86]

doesn't sound bad

Why? Seems pretty bad to me, and nothing has changed from the info we had before, only gotten worse. Namely publishers have more control and you can only give your game to one friend whose been on your list for at least 30days, but CAN'T loan it as they keep it forever. Thats fucked IMO.

 

[Brashnir]

That to me says they aren't going to allow it, but they didn't want to give us all the bad news in one go.

Well, I say bad news. It's pretty irrelevant to me at this point.

yep. There is no more bad news after this that will have any effect on me. The hammer blow has landed. My interest in this thing is over.

 

[Jarmel]

I am willing to take all of this shit if the family deal is as good as it sounds. Holy shit, this could be exploited so easily if this is the case.

 

[RurouniZel]

At this point, Sony needs to say one thing at E3:

"PS4 has no DRM requirements of any sort."

And they will win E3.

 

[shinobi602]

Loaning or renting games won’t be available at launch, but we are exploring the possibilities with our partners.


This is a good thing.

How is this a good thing?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Loaning or renting games won’t be available at launch, but we are exploring the possibilities with our partners.


This is a good thing.

Please explain.

I want to hear the reasoning.

 

[Freki]

*nods

He's damn right! Microsoft is crushing GameSpots competition for them - would you do something like this for your worst enemy?

 

[MarkusRJR]

well if you have dial-up then you were fucked this gen anyways, 24 hour check-in requirement or not

Late response, but I didn't really have any issues when I had dial up. I could still play all of my games without any problems (excluding online multiplayer games, obviously).

 

[Camp Lo]

Loaning or renting games won’t be available at launch, but we are exploring the possibilities with our partners.


This is a good thing.

... you're fucking joking right?

 

[Alebrije]

At this point, it really couldn't be clearer - Xbox One was made for publishers, not for us.

It seems it was designed as a closed ecosystem formed by MS-Publisher -Authorized retailer ( aka Gamespot) , We can call it "The Circle of Greed"

the funny part is that you give your money to them and they tell you how you can use your games. Its your money , but are their rules, so you decide if you want to play with them or not....

 

[Baby Milo]

Oh wow. I didn't read it all before..



So not only can third party publishers choose to disallow resale, but they can demand a transfer fee if they want. No doubt this will be passed onto the customer via higher game prices.

EA must be loving this right now.

god i hope this whole things blows up in there faces

 

[Maxim726X]

Console will still sell millions of units... If the Kinect works and they market the shit out of it, it will sell.

Obviously, gamers aren't a priority. We all knew this.

 

[sublimit]

TRUTHFACT: Ben Kuchera is human trash sucking on Microsoft's teat.

At this point i think we should just ban anything that links to his trollish posts.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

So it's official. Fuck the Xbox One and Fuck Microsoft. I will not be buying this console at all.

 

[Speevy]

At this point, Sony needs to say one thing at E3:

"PS4 has no DRM requirements of any sort."

And they will win E3.

So people can just burn PS4 games onto Blu-Ray right off the shelf?

Yeah...maybe there's a line to be drawn.

 

[MDX]

I think all of the policies they announced are logical extensions of the fact that this is a digital-only console. The "retail" titles, such as they are, are like Steamworks games. It's not a retail+digital console, it's a digital-only console. I mean, imagine if a competitor to Steam popped up that had all of these policies. It'd be fairly standard--in some respect forward-thinking (being able to transfer a game you own to a friend, even once, is better than what Steam has right now; being able to trade in at select retailers is better than what Steam has now for both the retailer and the customer), in other respects a little behind the curve (offline mode being a 24 hour limit) I don't personally have a problem with digital only, I've got 600 games on Steam. And I'm generally a pretty future-proof kind of guy, none of my computers have optical drives anymore. I use Dropbox for everything. I love tablets I'm not someone who typically needs to be encouraged to adopt new tech or who worries about trading off the stability of current options for the cutting edge of new options.

Comparing Steam and consoles is apples and oranges.
People who make use of Steam do it by choice. You dont
need it to play games on the PC. Its and additional service.
Consoles are closed environments. The service that is available
is the service you have to live with.

Im not supporting any system that treats its customers like slaves.
We are constantly giving up our rights through placation and compromises.
Just because we want new shiny toys.

 

[Chinner]

I think all of the policies they announced are logical extensions of the fact that this is a digital-only console. The "retail" titles, such as they are, are like Steamworks games. It's not a retail+digital console, it's a digital-only console. I mean, imagine if a competitor to Steam popped up that had all of these policies. It'd be fairly standard--in some respect forward-thinking (being able to transfer a game you own to a friend, even once, is better than what Steam has right now; being able to trade in at select retailers is better than what Steam has now for both the retailer and the customer), in other respects a little behind the curve (offline mode being a 24 hour limit) I don't personally have a problem with digital only, I've got 600 games on Steam. And I'm generally a pretty future-proof kind of guy, none of my computers have optical drives anymore. I use Dropbox for everything. I love tablets I'm not someone who typically needs to be encouraged to adopt new tech or who worries about trading off the stability of current options for the cutting edge of new options.

But here are the problems:
1) No one views these policies as an advantage in any digital-only platform. They're a necessary evil. And they're one that's overcome with sweeteners. One sweetener is pricing. In Steam that's manifested in a few ways--frequent and steep sales on the whole catalogue, and the ability for developers to produce unlimited keys for free (and thus for third party resellers to sacrifice margin for volume and offer discounts). Will Xbox One games be $35 to pre-order? Will they drop to $5 within 6 months? I doubt it.

2) Digital-only PC platforms emerged in response to the decline of retail. Retail has not declined for consoles. It's still there. The Xbox One's direct competitors will have retail space. And the direct competitors will not necessarily have these policies. Maybe Microsoft ends up correctly predicting the future and riding the wave in advance, but it seems like Microsoft's competitors are healthy enough that this is too much too soon.

3) There exists no digital-only platform that requires an ongoing membership fee (or that encourages an ongoing membership fee). Ongoing membership fees tend to be for unlimited, all-access type services like Netflix--or even in the more limited form, Playstation Plus, or discount programs like Amazon Prime or Costco membership. It's true that Gold exists today, but today there's a platform that doesn't necessarily need the kind of sweeteners that the One will need.

So, I guess my conclusion is that given that we now know that Xbox One is a digital-only, not digital-first system, the policies are fairly unremarkable and the next question becomes how Microsoft will blunt these inherent limitations of digital-only systems and show advantages.

great post, needs to be quoted for new pages

 

[Xellos]

Sounds terrible. Not really getting the 'not as bad as it could have been' crowd. It's still DRM that needs to check in every 24 hours and publishers trying to regulate the used game market. The family sharing (although it reads like only one of the ten can be sharing at a given time) and ability to access your entire library at a remote location are nice, but not worth the trade-off IMO.

 

[Green Yoshi]

Loaning or renting games won’t be available at launch, but we are exploring the possibilities with our partners.


This is a good thing.

Depends how long the exploration takes. Probably forever. ;-)

 

[Ranger X]

GAF.


Now, all your fears are comfirmed. Seriously.
WILL WE FINALLY STAND UP AND VOTE WITH OUR WALLETS THIS TIME?


I mean, its now or never. It either we stand or the gaming we currently know will cease to exist.

 

[tactilecleaner]

So ps4 guys now you now what is coming to to your console. Don't even think it will any different on your side. If not, MS will truley rock this E3 because the publishers will support this. If the publishers will support ps4 without this restrictions then you can expect a new meaning to exklusive dlc for xbox one or maybe even kiss goodbye to a lot of third publishers.

 

[BigDug13]

At this point, Sony needs to say one thing at E3:

"PS4 has no DRM requirements of any sort."

And they will win E3.

PS4, Twice the power, Twice the freedom.

 

[Futurevoid]

I think all of the policies they announced are logical extensions of the fact that this is a digital-only console. The "retail" titles, such as they are, are like Steamworks games. It's not a retail+digital console, it's a digital-only console. I mean, imagine if a competitor to Steam popped up that had all of these policies. It'd be fairly standard--in some respect forward-thinking (being able to transfer a game you own to a friend, even once, is better than what Steam has right now; being able to trade in at select retailers is better than what Steam has now for both the retailer and the customer), in other respects a little behind the curve (offline mode being a 24 hour limit) I don't personally have a problem with digital only, I've got 600 games on Steam. And I'm generally a pretty future-proof kind of guy, none of my computers have optical drives anymore. I use Dropbox for everything. I love tablets I'm not someone who typically needs to be encouraged to adopt new tech or who worries about trading off the stability of current options for the cutting edge of new options.

But here are the problems:
1) No one views these policies as an advantage in any digital-only platform. They're a necessary evil. And they're one that's overcome with sweeteners. One sweetener is pricing. In Steam that's manifested in a few ways--frequent and steep sales on the whole catalogue, and the ability for developers to produce unlimited keys for free (and thus for third party resellers to sacrifice margin for volume and offer discounts). Will Xbox One games be $35 to pre-order? Will they drop to $5 within 6 months? I doubt it.

2) Digital-only PC platforms emerged in response to the decline of retail. Retail has not declined for consoles. It's still there. The Xbox One's direct competitors will have retail space. And the direct competitors will not necessarily have these policies. Maybe Microsoft ends up correctly predicting the future and riding the wave in advance, but it seems like Microsoft's competitors are healthy enough that this is too much too soon.

3) There exists no digital-only platform that requires an ongoing membership fee (or that encourages an ongoing membership fee). Ongoing membership fees tend to be for unlimited, all-access type services like Netflix--or even in the more limited form, Playstation Plus, or discount programs like Amazon Prime or Costco membership. It's true that Gold exists today, but today there's a platform that doesn't necessarily need the kind of sweeteners that the One will need.

So, I guess my conclusion is that given that we now know that Xbox One is a digital-only, not digital-first system, the policies are fairly unremarkable and the next question becomes how Microsoft will blunt these inherent limitations of digital-only systems and show advantages.

Superb post. Worth saying again. Lines up perfectly with my own thoughts.

 

[The Omega Man]

Loaning or renting games won’t be available at launch, but we are exploring the possibilities with our partners.


This is a good thing.

How is this a good thing? Please elaborate on this.

 

[Windu]

I agree. I mentioned in another thread, I know this could cause issues for some (overseas troops and the like) and thats a shame. I wonder if there is a possible solution for that? Account status perhaps for service people that would allow a different setup? Although it would probably be exploited or ridiculous to setup.

could just probably set it up so they can enter their ID number that is on their id cards or something.

 

[BomberMouse]

The only good thing is gamesharing and the details on that are still fuzzy :/

I get what they are trying to do, but basically they are going full DD with a shitty DRM system and are somehow shoehorning physical releases on that scheme.

 

[King_Moc]

Oh so you really dont want to be able to loan?

Your not buying the console anyways right?

So how could this matter to you?

Because if it's successful with a mainstream audience, all the companies will be doing it? Why would you want that? It provides the consumer with a worse experience and a devalued product. It is worse than what we had before.

And to clarify, that MS statement suggests (to me, at least) that renting and lending will not be coming AT ALL.

 

[dreamer3kx]

Two controllers, a game, a gaming console, open box and play, no worries, happy.

 

[Kusagari]

It really is hilarious that a policy that seems designed to ruin Gamestop will still have them sitting pretty - if not more so than they are now.

The rich get richer.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I agree. I mentioned in another thread, I know this could cause issues for some (overseas troops and the like) and thats a shame. I wonder if there is a possible solution for that? Account status perhaps for service people that would allow a different setup? Although it would probably be exploited or ridiculous to setup.

MS already said that active duty military can have these restrictions waived.