Support NeoGAF

[[Clark Gable]]

Demons Souls is the only japanese game I liked n the past couple years fuck those gamers in japan for not embracing sakaguchi

 

[Clear]

To be honest I find the relentless omnipresent militarism of western games far more disturbing than any other trend worldwide.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Look at the output of say Sony's first party titles developed in the west compared to the first party titles made in the east.

The western developed games a lot less successful now than they are in the 90s because they're not as good? I agree


Sony Japan has kind of sucked this generation though....

You spend X amount of money on a product because you think it can bring Z amount in profit. Since Western companies saw more potential in the market's growth than Japan did, it invested increasingly large amounts of money in the development of video games, making more profit, taking bigger shares of the market.

Simple economics. The Western companies had more foresight, they managed to see the potential growth and act accordingly, while Japan did not.

This seems completely unrelated to the question about whether or not these are mostly the same types of games, developers, and quality (Arguably less so) now from western developers as compared to PC games made in the 90s.

 

[ScionOfTheRisingSun]

It's not neccessarily 'the smell of their own'. There are probably quite a few reviewers out there who can like both the best of Western games and the best of Eastern games.

I liked Bioshock, but not for its gameplay.

Yeah, well that is where we differ. The only part of such games relevant to me is the gameplay. This the crux of where I find my tastes have come out of sync with the average western gamer. Western gamers have started to play games just for setting and narrative alone, and they tolerate or completely disregard the often janky and lackluster gameplay which that narrative package is wrapped around as an mere afterthought. Western games have started to veer closer to Hollywood, they have started to feel more and more like interactive movie experiences.

This is a sort of thinking I cannot ever get behind.

 

[DjangoReinhardt]

It seems to me it's more the case that Western audiences kicked a lot of Japanese games to the curb as Western developers have gotten their shit together on the consoles.

 

[zeelman]

Despite the article quoting a reasonable definition of Moé most have ignored it including the article writer

Because that definition is just a bunch of BS. Look at Ar Tonelico, they were giving that exact same definition of moe for it, and there was nothing special about the characters at all, there was just a bunch of fan service.

 

[Pureauthor]

See, I don't see how that's true. It's effecting a small niche of games that we would have never gotten here or cared about. Those type of strange otaku games always existed in Japan. Are they even that big in Japan? The article even says it doesn't even effect big franchisees in Japan, the ones we would care about. And if anything the "moe" games we do care about here come over and apparently have a small but dedicated following that keeps NIS alive.

So how is moe killing gaming in Japan?

His argument is not that it's affecting the big names or its overall world perception, but it's strangling the indie/niche scene into following a precise guideline of what you must put into the game to appeal to the tiny otaku crowd who will pay whatever money you ask to get their hands on what they want. It's why random porn scenes get shoehorned into VNs and all the other nonsense.

This, in effect, kills the creativity pipeline of up-and-comers who want to experiment with new stuff.

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

Very good article.

And the implications are huge. Especially that people stop playing games when they grow older. That means with the japanese demographics that the jp games market will not only not grow it will decline. Where as here in the west games will continue to have solid growth for another 40 years(until the first generation gamers reach retirement age)

It also means japanese will have a hard time to sell their games going forward. Since the bulk of the consumers here will be 18 and up.

If i was the japanese games business/trade organisation. I would work really hard to normalize gaming for grown ups. If they dont they will hit a brick wall.

 

[dark10x]

To be honest I find the relentless omnipresent militarism of western games far more disturbing than any other trend worldwide.

Oh? There have been a LOT of games released in 2011 and many more coming up this Fall. Just how many of them are truly military? Call of Duty? Battlefield? There's definitely a few others, of course, but it definitely hasn't taken over the industry. It just so happens that some of the more popular games right now are military shooters, but that's no different than when GTA was popular or Final Fantasy, really. It's just where we're at right now but it doesn't effect the games industry at large.

 

[AkuMifune]

Aside from a few standouts, they seem to be stubbornly isolating themselves into irrelevancy.

 

[vocab]

Moe has never been a problem with Japanese games in general. It has defintely affected the modern day JRPG though, and a lot of games have suffered because of it. Poor characters, offputting art style, and bad voice acting is a huge turn off for many westner gamers.

 

[7Th]

The fact that people actually consider the article well-written or researched makes me think less of GAF.

such as?

http://www.avclub.com/articles/wild-things-16-films-featuring-manic-pixie-dream-g,2407/

Why are their hands like that?

It's the slut pose; they're asking for dick.

 

[Jintor]

Yeah, well that is where we differ. The only part of such games relevant to me is the gameplay. This the crux of where I find my tastes have come out of sync with the average western gamer. Western gamers have started to play games just for setting and narrative alone, and they tolerate or completely disregard the often janky and lackluster gameplay which that narrative package is wrapped around as an mere afterthought. Western games have started to veer closer to Hollywood, they have started to feel more and more like interactive movie experiences.

This is a sort of thinking I cannot ever get behind.

But do you play Visual Novels (or close equivalents like Phoenix Wright and 999)? Because there's a branch of Japanese gameplay that is almost entirely setting and narrative, sacrificing gameplay on the altar of entertainment.

 

[Rahxephon91]

His argument is not that it's affecting the big names or its overall world perception,

Well then I think it's a pretty weak argument. You can make it for anime, but thats because everyone is well aware that that is from Japan. Video games? Not so much. I don't think people look at FF and don't want to buy it because "oh moe". They don't want to buy it because well it looks "gay. Shadows of the Damned didn't bomb here because of moe or how people perceive Japan. Most gamers probably didn't even know it was a Japanese game if they even knew what it was. It bombed because it wasn't marketed well or it's style does not jive well with western more specifically western gamers. What games are gaining huge attention in America? LA Noire, Deus Ex, Red Dead Redemption, CoD, and even Gears. What do all these have in common beyond shooting people? The all sell this gritty imagery. I think what is really attracting western gamers is supposed gritty and more "realistic" games. Japan has not given gamers that really and that is why their new ips have failed, not because of Moe. The old regulars though, still sale here.

but it's strangling the indie/niche scene into following a precise guideline of what you must put into the game to appeal to the tiny otaku crowd who will pay whatever money you ask to get their hands on what they want.

But would western gamers really care about that scene? Probably not and that niche scene in Japan has always existed, it's just now it's moe. But even then small developers like Grasshoppa, Platinum, and Atlus make their nice games and they don't have moe. The nice games from Japan still exist, at least the ones the hardcore gamer wants. Sure it's infected stuff like NIS, but I don't think moe is the culprit for screwing with the game scene. If you took the moe art out of NIS/Gust games would they sell better here, would more people care about them? I doubt it.

This, in effect, kills the creativity pipeline of up-and-comers who want to experiment with new stuff

Maybe, but you still have Japanese developers making their niche games. Would a lot of the moe developers even make creative games if given the chance? Or are they just the new porn game makers of today? Do we really need to care about what they are making?

 

[supersaw]

To be honest I find the relentless omnipresent militarism of western games far more disturbing than any other trend worldwide.

You find it disturbing that first person shooters have shooting in them?

 

[ScionOfTheRisingSun]

But do you play Visual Novels (or close equivalents like Phoenix Wright and 999)? Because there's a branch of Japanese gameplay that is almost entirely setting and narrative, sacrificing gameplay on the altar of entertainment.

Yeah, I do occasionally, not often mind you, only stuff that are praised to heaven exactly like 999, Pheonix Wright and Hotel Dusk.

But I don't see those as videogames, I regard them as compact manga/anime, often with better writing and pacing. I find after about 2004 I have not really been able to enjoy anime series anymore. Their typical 26 episode run is too lengthy, the writing is inconsistent and the animation quality leaves a lot to be desired.

I mostly just suffice with Anime movies which have great pacing and amazing animation quality and supplement that with aforementioned titles.

Anywaste, as you said, that sort of approach is reserved just for an isolated niche branch in the Japanese development mileu. It is by no means an all encompassing game design philosophy extending to all games.

 

[Pureauthor]

*stuff*

I might as well make clear that I do not agree with the reasoning within this article, I just thought that you had misread what his argument was, and wanted to clarify.

 

[Clear]

You find it disturbing that first person shooters have shooting in them?

Its less about shooting than uniforms and body-armour everywhere I look.

I find it dehumanizing and symptomatic of the increasingly paranoid nature of western society and culture.

 

[Rahxephon91]

I might as well make clear that I do not agree with the reasoning within this article, I just thought that you had misread what his argument was, and wanted to clarify.

Fair enough. I just think the article spends to much time on moe as a culprit when I think it's a pretty small thing in a bigger problem.

 

[discoalucard]

Anywaste, as you said, that sort of approach is reserved just for an isolated niche branch in the Japanese development mileu. It is by no means an all encompassing game design philosophy extending to all games.

So when Japan does it, it's all cool, but when the West does it, it's something you can't get behind.

Ok then!

 

[ScionOfTheRisingSun]

So when Japan does it, it's all cool, but when the West does it, it's something you can't get behind.

Ok then!

Learn to read.

I said the Japanese only do it in a limited capacity in a niche genre, in the west it is a movement effecting how all games are designed.

You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.

I wish your whole region of the world would fix its aggressive eternally butt-hurt hubris. Alas, you inherited that shitty sense of unquestionable superiority from the greek, and it is so ingrained into your cultural fabric that it cannot ever be washed out.

 

[sleepykyo]

Not sure actually, edited my post to reflect that.

Nm. Wiki has Sir-Tech as US based. Was US based. I dun goofed.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Rahxephon91, you mention Grasshopper and Platinum, but several of their games are loaded with fanservice.

Its less about shooting than uniforms and body-armour everywhere I look.

I find it dehumanizing and symptomatic of the increasingly paranoid nature of western society and culture.

Plenty of popular game series in Japan revolve around violence and conflict though, including Gundam, Monster Hunter, Devil May Cry, and all the Musuo games.

Just because their faceless mooks look like anime characters or carry swords doesn't make them any less dead.

Shooters are popular in the West simply because they offer the best competitive multiplayer for large groups of players of varying skill levels.

You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.

I wish your whole region of the world would fix its aggressive eternally butt-hurt hubris. Alas, you inherited that shitty sense of unquestionable superiority from the greek, and it is so ingrained into your cultural fabric that it cannot ever be washed out.

Let's not say things we can't take back, mmkay?

 

[RedSwirl]

When you think about it though, Japanese games din't just decide to break up with the west. The opposite kinda happened. The western console game industry is cutting itself off from Japan because we now have our own thing.

 

[Jintor]

Yeah, I do occasionally, not often mind you, only stuff that are praised to heaven exactly like 999, Pheonix Wright and Hotel Dusk.

But I don't see those as videogames, I regard them as compact manga/anime, often with better writing and pacing. I find after about 2004 I have not really been able to enjoy anime series anymore. Their typical 26 episode run is too lengthy, the writing is inconsistent and the animation quality leaves a lot to be desired.

I mostly just suffice with Anime movies which have great pacing and amazing animation quality and supplement that with aforementioned titles.

Anywaste, as you said, that sort of approach is reserved just for an isolated niche branch in the Japanese development mileu. It is by no means an all encompassing game design philosophy extending to all games.

Actually anime episode runs got revised to a standard of about 13 episodes, which affects pacing pleasingly and whatnot. Anyway, I don't think that 'cinematic storytelling' as you put it is all-encompassing on the Western front.

You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.

I wish your whole region of the world would fix its aggressive eternally butt-hurt hubris. Alas, you inherited that shitty sense of unquestionable superiority from the greek, and it is so ingrained into your cultural fabric that it cannot ever be washed out.

lol what the shit

 

[supersaw]

Its less about shooting than uniforms and body-armour everywhere I look.

I find it dehumanizing and symptomatic of the increasingly paranoid nature of western society and culture.

That's pretty much just COD and Battlefield so 2 out 100+ games per year, it's not exactly being force fed into every genre. Those games have always been military shooters so it's unlikely that some propaganda bureau was commissioned to inject messages of American imperialism into innocuous children's games.

Saying that western culture is paranoid is a super broad generalisation. The "west" constitutes of other countries besides the US where tastes slightly differ yet again.

 

[Finaika]

You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.

I wish your whole region of the world would fix its aggressive eternally butt-hurt hubris. Alas, you inherited that shitty sense of unquestionable superiority from the greek, and it is so ingrained into your cultural fabric that it cannot ever be washed out.

Unreal.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Interesting article, and I particularly enjoyed the researched bits.

After listening to the recent 8-4 Play podcast episode with Ryan Payton, I'm incredibly interested in watching/listening/reading what it is that he had to say at the talks he did in mainland Asia and Japan with their game devs, about his experience between working with KojiPro and 343 Industries, and the things he learned of things that need to change with game design and development (e.g. If you're grinding in an MMORPG and killing hundreds upon thousands of monsters, make sure the game is about killing those monsters and that the story addresses that directly--its silly that you spend so many hours killing wildlife, yet the story is more about political melodrama than not).

I think the anecdote about the well-known producer dropping Bioshock after 30 seconds is a damn fucking shame, though, and I wonder how prevalent that sort of attitude actually is, especially considering how there are so many AAA game devs these days who talk about whatever new localized western game they're playing on twitter, e.g. Kojima, Suda, Mikami, etc.

One of the largest problems about Japanese games that try and ape western games are the ones that completely miss the point, or take the wrong lessons from those games and why they were a success in the west; God of War, I feel, largely was a success for having dumbed down combat for the masses that made you look "badass," and having greek mythology as something to relate with as a commonly taught subject in the K-12 education system. Then you have games like... what was it, Vampire Rain(?) or Quantum Theory, where they take the aesthetic side of western games that are easy to understand, and completely miss the point of what makes them good (i.e. well designed AI and combat instances).

When cross-pollenation hits, it hits bullseye. Most of my favorite games are ones where the devs grew up on the other side of the lake's games or saw something from the other side during development and thought "That looks cool as fuck, imma try that."

I just hope those guys are learning, again, the right lessons and not the recent spat of bad habits that plague modern Western games.

The design focus of each region is different.

I find I generally share a similar taste in games as the average Japanese gamer but I've been living in a region where people generally prefer western game design, now pretty much across the board, but prior to this gen largely only on the PC which is where the western design process is rooted.

Western gamers who have shifted their taste to PC style game design just assume that because they like this approach better now then that approach is superior, they do not accept that it merely is just different. Different is not better, but if you like one and dislike the other then it is fallacy of human beings to just assume it is. This goes for Japanese gamers as well who have long regarded western games as being shit.

But then who can blame them, not liking something and regarding it as being shit really is not that different. Selfish thoughts rule eternal in the realm of personal sentiments.

Reading through or listening to some professional western reviewer's perspective on games such as Deus EX, Mass Effect, BioShock, Fallout 3 versus let us say something like Yakuza, Final Fantasy, Catherine, paints a pretty clear picture of how exactly and where the regional sentiments differ, and how they are largely irreconcilable.

to put it simply, when it comes down to it everyone likes the smell of their own. That is all there is to it.

@underlined: I would just like to point out that this is sadly incorrect. Classic PC gaming aesthetics and Modern Western gaming are as different as Katamari Damacy is to Gears of War.

@bolded: I can't put my finger on it, but it's like the "zeitgeist" has been removed from Japanese games, no matter if they're wacky, western-looking, western genred, classic franchise, old vet design teams, etc. They just don't seem to get the mulligan of not having a sceptical preconception going in for many in the west now, which fewer overcome.

 

[Jintor]

That's pretty much just COD and Battlefield so 2 out 100+ games per year, it's not exactly being force fed into every genre. Those games have always been military shooters so it's unlikely that some propaganda bureau was commissioned to inject messages of American imperialism into innocuous children's games.

Saying that western culture is paranoid is a super broad generalisation. The "west" constitutes of other countries and even continents besides the US where tastes slightly differ yet again.

It's not even that. It's primarily to save on art assets.

 

[StoppedInTracks]

You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.

I wish your whole region of the world would fix its aggressive eternally butt-hurt hubris. Alas, you inherited that shitty sense of unquestionable superiority from the greek, and it is so ingrained into your cultural fabric that it cannot ever be washed out.

U mad bro?

 

[Kalnos]

You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.

I wish your whole region of the world would fix its aggressive eternally butt-hurt hubris. Alas, you inherited that shitty sense of unquestionable superiority from the greek, and it is so ingrained into your cultural fabric that it cannot ever be washed out.

This thread just went full weeaboo.

 

[NotebookJ2]

Learn to read.

I said the Japanese only do it in a limited capacity in a niche genre, in the west it is a movement effecting how all games are designed.

You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.

I wish your whole region of the world would fix its aggressive eternally butt-hurt hubris. Alas, you inherited that shitty sense of unquestionable superiority from the greek, and it is so ingrained into your cultural fabric that it cannot ever be washed out.

...oh my. I think you might want to step away from these forums for awhile.

Spoiler

I kinda agree with hubris being a huge obstacle in these types of discussions though I think both sides tend to exhibit it in different ways

 

[ScionOfTheRisingSun]

Actually anime episode runs got revised to a standard of about 13 episodes, which affects pacing pleasingly and whatnot. Anyway, I don't think that 'cinematic storytelling' as you put it is all-encompassing on the Western front.

It is pretty evident to me, especially prevalent in the pool of titles that in the last 5-6 years have been held up as shining examples of modern western game design to which the archaic and old Japanese approach allegedly can no longer measure.

Anywaste, there is no right and wrong when it comes to sentiments, what I described is just my perspective. Play what you enjoy, I always do.

 

[Old Gimlet Eyes]

Learn to read.

I said the Japanese only do it in a limited capacity in a niche genre, in the west it is a movement effecting how all games are designed.

You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.

I wish your whole region of the world would fix its aggressive eternally butt-hurt hubris. Alas, you inherited that shitty sense of unquestionable superiority from the greek, and it is so ingrained into your cultural fabric that it cannot ever be washed out.

Tell us how you really feel.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

...oh my. I think you might want to step away from these forums for awhile.

Spoiler

I kinda agree with hubris being a huge obstacle in these types of discussions though I think both sides tend to exhibit it in different ways

He does have a way of killing illuminating dialogue about this sort of thing once he goes Mr. Hyde-mode doesnt he?

 

[Finaika]

Maybe a western gamer killed his dog.

 

[TheSeks]

Anywaste,

Anyways, not Anywaste unless you're dumping poo. :|

Maybe a western gamer killed his dog.

While his step brother fucked his Japanese gaming mother and he looked on as said Western Gamer dad killed his dog and was going toward him to kill him as well?

Spoiler

I can't make the MGS2 reference smoothly.

 

[Hari Seldon]

I never heard of the term moe, but 9 times out of 10 if I see even a hint of the anime bullshit I won't even consider the game.

 

[ScionOfTheRisingSun]

@underlined: I would just like to point out that this is sadly incorrect. Classic PC gaming aesthetics and Modern Western gaming are as different as Katamari Damacy is to Gears of War.

@bolded: I can't put my finger on it, but it's like the "zeitgeist" has been removed from Japanese games, no matter if they're wacky, western-looking, western genred, classic franchise, old vet design teams, etc. They just don't seem to get the mulligan of not having a sceptical preconception going in for many in the west now, which fewer overcome.

I am not talking about classic PC gaming design aesthetics, I am talking about modern PC design aesthetics, as in the design approach of important developers who until recently were PC exclusive but are now making console games as well.

Old guard PC developers like Bethesda, Epic, Bioware, Irrational etc. etc. these guys are the torchbearers of the western/PC development approach.

 

[Azar]

Learn to read.

I said the Japanese only do it in a limited capacity in a niche genre, in the west it is a movement effecting how all games are designed.

You western gamers and your butt-hurt reactionary rage whenever I say that I don't like your approach to game design. Always so foaming at the mouth that you do not even care to read a paragraph in full before spewing your indignant acidic vehemence on my face.

Read more HG101 before throwing around shit like "indignant acidic vehemence" at him imo.

 

[Derrick01]

This thread just went full weeaboo.

I can smell it coming through the computer. It's also not the first time he (she?) blew up on this type of topic and lashed out against western gamers. The hate is strong in that one.

I never heard of the term moe, but 9 times out of 10 if I see even a hint of the anime bullshit I won't even consider the game.

Yeah that's a big reason why I won't even touch japanese games anymore. I can't stand that stuff at all.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I am not talking about classic PC gaming design aesthetics, I am talking about modern PC design aesthetics, as in the design approach of important developers who until recently were PC exclusive but are now making console games as well.

Old guard PC developers like Bethesda, Epic, Bioware, Irrational etc. etc. these guys are the torchbearers of the western/PC development approach.

Trust me, there is a massive shift in philosophy, methodology, and output, even if the name on the buildings and boxes are the same.

Anyways, we're off-track.

 

[richiek]

I never heard of the term moe, but 9 times out of 10 if I see even a hint of the anime bullshit I won't even consider the game.

An example of western moe:

 

[Data West]

An example of western moe:

Moe generally doesn't consist of showing off cleavage.

 

[RedSwirl]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Moe

Moe is the ability of a character to instill in the audience an irrational desire to adore them, hug them, protect them, comfort them, pet them, help them with whatever they need/want, etc.

Sorry if I just robbed you of five hours of your life.

 

[Data West]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Moe



Sorry if I just robbed you of five hours of your life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT2GRpwwS8M

Did you one better

 

[R_thanatos]

I do enjoy the odd Persona games, stuff from Nintendo, and some of Capcom's offerings.

But, seriously?
Konami? What the fuck happened?! SotN, MGS, RR, SC, AC, MOTHERFUCKING SUIKODEN?! When was the last time they released anything relevant? MGS:R hasn't seen the light of day, and their next releases are HD remixes...what the hell is the team doing?!
Sega? Sonic is DEAD! Altered Beast? Dead! Shenmue? Dead! Valkyrie Chronicles should be successful, but it's likely gonna die. Is there ANYTHING coming out from them that's worth the watch?
SE has had some successes recently, but a lot of those successes were from Western developers. All their Japanese stuff has been shit. I'm sorry, but FUCK DQMMORPG.
Level 5? WKC was shit! Ni no Kuni...will it ever even been released outside Japan?
--------
It's clear that this generation of developers was heavily influenced and fell in love with games made by the big Japanese studios, but the Japanese games industry is simply stagnant.

i really think you're spouting pessimism without restraint .

Yes konami was unable to define themselves properly I agree ..

BUT for the rest i dunno what you've smoked . Sega is on the verge of doing sonic generation AFTER colors and the DS/3ds sonic games are freaking fine , Sonic is waking up and doing fine so far . Yakuza is a sucess for them and it's a freaking great game , valkyria is not gonna die , just it will not be localised ( because sega doesn't believe in the psp OUTside japan )..
There are games coming from sega , look at them ..

SE is doing fine, their handled games are doing fine, their Ios games are doing fine, FF11 is still strong and while ff14 star was awefull they are clearly working on it with Several HUGE changes 1.18 to 1.20 DONE & Planned , FF13 is a commercial sucess and the demand for ff13-2 is clearly here ...
What's more they did a freaking job by acquiring deus ex HR makers and letting them do things fine .. ( game is great ) if you've paid attention to what SE released , you'd see plenty of good/great titles ...

Level 5 is doing so fine , they have a US branch opening up ..Layton games ? Great . WKC ? Not for you but it's not shit ...the community Online is freaking healty and YOU'll STILL FIND PEOPLE Online on the first game servers ..

Your love has shifted ..you're willing go give a free pass to Activision & EA but not to Sega & SE ? the problem here is that your taste have changed , not the games fault..

There are plenty of Great game / good franchises this gen from Japan....
Continue to complain about shenmue , even if there are plenty of games like it ..BECAUSE YOU'RE UNABLE to MOVE ON

 

[Neon_Icarus]

Ok I have a few things to say:

1. About the hatred towards Western games.

Japanese people have no problem with Western fashion, movies, music etc so blaming
lack of popularity of Western games on simple xenophobia is ridiculous. The stigma attached to Western gaming exists for a reason: most of the Western games published on platforms that were popular in Japan back in the day (NES, SNES etc.) were bad. To compound this, these games were translated quick and cheap as well.

In fact, in their latest podcast, the guys at 8-4 said that even now the standard of localization is almost as laughably bad as it was in the 8-bit days. This includes HUGE games like Red Dead Redemption.

Getting rid of the stigma of "bad quality" takes time, but it is happening. Even with their poor localizations, Western games are seen with more and more frequency in the Japanese top tens.

Before using the xenophobia card, people should remind themselves that there are also many Japanese genres which hold zero appeal towards Westerners. This is why we shouldn't be offended even if they never develop a liking for our fantastic FPS-games.



2. The "rise" of Western gaming

People who think there has been a sudden increase in the quality of Western games must have lived in a console-only bubble during the 90s (which seems to be most people in the Western gaming press, strangely). Most of the developers who are popular now were creating classics back then too, just on the PC instead.



3. The issue of ignoring developments in Western gaming

The part about Japanese developers not paying attention to Western gaming is blatantly false, at least when it comes to some of the biggest figures in the industry.

Hironobu Sagaguchi got the inspiration to revamp the JRPG from playing Gears of War (of all things). Kojima is always talking about how Western developers are ahead of the curve, and Koji-Pro now employs plenty of Westerners to counter this. And then there is Inafune, who clearly worships the very ground Western developers walk on. The list goes on...

The only big company that's been mostly ignoring Western developers is Nintendo, but then again, they haven't had any problems being successful in the West, not until very recently at least.



4. The problem of Demographics

Having lived for two years in Japan, the part about adults having very little time to play games, as well as the social stigma attached to gaming seems to be very true. After graduating from high school, letting people know that you consider yourself a gamer is pretty much equal to admitting to collecting women's underwear or farting loudly in the elevator.

Of course, this does not mean that "normal" adults don't play games in Japan. If you just play Brain Age in the train once in a while, you're not really a gamer yet, so it's quite ok.

Given this situation, I think it's unreasonable to expect Japanese developers to suddenly abandon the teenage demographic in favour of the twenty-somethings for which most "core games" seem to be made for in the West now. The audience for "mature" games is avid, but small in Japan, and is not enough to support several expensive AAA HD-games a year, no matter how much we might want them. Of course, trying to go after the Western gamers is an option, but that marked is already flooded with indigenous products, (Western games, made for Westerners, by Westerners) making success anything but likely.



I could go on, but I'll leave it at this, since it seems I've already written a novel here...

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

An example of western moe:

http://www.nationalgamingleague.com...loads/2011/07/bioshock-infinite-elizabeth.jpg

Except she's clearly a woman, and dressed in time-period appropriate clothes (relative to the other characters in the game). I'd say Lara Croft is a much better example of character specifically designed to elicit a response from players.

 

[Clear]

That's pretty much just COD and Battlefield so 2 out 100+ games per year, it's not exactly being force fed into every genre. Those games have always been military shooters so it's unlikely that some propaganda bureau was commissioned to inject messages of American imperialism into innocuous children's games.

Saying that western culture is paranoid is a super broad generalisation. The "west" constitutes of other countries besides the US where tastes slightly differ yet again.

I'm not American (thought my spelling of armour would be a giveaway), and my opinion is that its not an exclusively American problem. The politics of fear are evident as a social control mechanism across the developed world.

I'm not saying its propaganda either. Specifically why I find it concerning is because its making images of uniformed para/military figures seem "normal" and even comfortingly heroic.

Armed, body-armoured guys in urban settings, ironically enough, is not what our forefathers sacrificed themselves for in two bloody world wars.

There's too much war and not enough adventure in games these days, in my opinion.

I'm just saying.