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[ctrayne]

I went through this phase recently where I was really excited to get into western games. To my surprise, even with this about-face enthusiasm, I really don't care for many of the lauded examples of western development.

It's cool if you don't like everything you play - I don't - though I do feel that sometimes people can have poor excuses for not liking something.

Anyway, the big thing I was annoyed by isn't that issue. It's the bitching about anything and everything gaming. Not JP vs West, just in general. So much negativity and pettiness in gaming forums. The two issues are kind of unrelated, I guess, and veering off the original topic. My bad.

 

[Finaika]

is there a tl;dr version?

Moé is killing gaming in Japan.

 

[BocoDragon]

It's cool if you don't like everything you play - I don't - though I do feel that sometimes people can have poor excuses for not liking something.

Anyway, the big thing I was annoyed by isn't that issue. It's the bitching about anything and everything gaming. Not JP vs West, just in general. So much negativity and pettiness in gaming forums. The two issues are kind of unrelated, I guess, and veering off the original topic. My bad.

Sometimes I feel that way too. But I don't think negative GAF posts really represents how GAF members actually feel about games.

The problem is that negative statements can be righteous, interesting and cause a shitstorm.... while positive statements are often perceived as quite banal.

 

[wildfire]

It's going to be interesting having this conversation in another 10 years or so when we have to start including China and Korea in the discussion. Especially since most of the AAA studios are already outsourcing a lot of the labor to Asia.

Japan is not out of the picture, but judging from this thread there are a fair number of people who are crapping on the industry here for the wrong reasons.

Around E3, the newspapers ran a story about gaming in the United States and it came up that the average age of your typical video game player was around 37 years old. The average age of the person actually buying the game was around 41 years old. This figure has been steadily increasing as gamers (and western developers) continue to grow older. On the flip side, the average age of your typical gamer in Japan is somewhere in the late teens as far as I know.

Having lived and worked in both the US and Japan, I will tell you that your average working class American has way more free time to play games than your average working class Japanese. Not only that, but the 1UP article hit the nail on the head, the perception about gaming is completely different. You tell someone that your hobby is gaming (among other things) and they're more likely to either A) be a lot more accepting about it than your average Japanese salaryman / housewife (who will be pressured into thinking that it's a waste of time, B) have a significantly higher chance of running into someone who is also a gamer C) receive an indifferent shrug.

Looking at Wikipedia you'll see that as of June 2011, only 1.5m 360 consoles have sold compared to 25.4m in the US, 3.9m in the UK, and 13.7m in EMEA. In fact, Microsoft is talking about abandoning the platform (again) in Japan because they simply can't compete against Sony / Nintendo.

The PS3 has similarly skewed numbers, 6m units in Japan versus 32m units (America - 13.5m, EU + UK 19m). Considering that Japan has about half the population of the US, you'll see that simply not as many "adults" are sitting at home playing games in their (very little) free time.

Ok, so then who is playing games in Japan? Like 1UP said you got your middle school kids (mostly boys - MH, Pokemon, Gundam fans); high school kids (same games for the most part with some sport titles like Winning Eleven Soccer and Baseball,) your (shrinking) college crowd, and the freeters (who are basically unemployed adults who rely on part-time work or their parents to support them.) There is a small, dedicated population of "hardcore" gamers out there, but I very rarely meet any who are outside of the game industry. Most "gamers" are, as the article states, people who play their PSP or DS on the train or more frequently, commuters who are now turning to their iphones / android phones for cheap, mindless time-killing.

Nintendo still makes money of their IP. They still manage to sell "family-oriented" games, but they're currently in trouble - big trouble.

Anyway, the point is that some of you are going on about how great western games are compared to Japan, and yes, western games have gotten a lot better than they were. You're completely neglecting the fact that Japanese game companies are not looking for your western dollars (especially with the weak ass dollar messing up my exchange rates), they're trying to stay alive and that means making games that target the ↑ aforementioned ↑ market.

SOME developers here don't want to resort to that. Some developers want to make games that people around the world can play and enjoy. Most of those developers have deep pockets and don't have to worry about a single failure sinking their company. With people's jobs on the line, do you really blame them for taking a safer approach? The company I work at is a small start-up that is trying to stay away from derivative moe / anime games and make something new that we think people all over the world can enjoy. It's a hard sell right now and the industry has changed a lot in the past 10 years.

I found the article to be pretty accurate.




Why Lost Odyssey? What was it about the game that sets it apart from everything else? The actual game system is pretty antiquated, slow, turn-based, command entry combat. It still relies on random encounters. Plus, the swords & sorcery with a touch of SF based setting wasn't anything particularly new. The game's strongest areas - Inoue's character designs, Uematsu's soundtrack, and writing by Shigematsu / Rubin were nice points but they're not really indicative of any sort of advanced game design. (To be fair, I did like the game.)

Thank god. This thread was going to be rage inducing without posts that move the discussion forward like this.

The age gap is something that I overlooked. I regard this as important but to a large degree I don't get it.

The games Western devs have made are derivatives of pieces of fiction and games they enjoyed as children cranked to 11. The only mistake I see these games making is having brooding adults as main characters instead of tennagers that can be identified with by the dominant consumers of games in Japan.

That said I'm confident I know too little about what Japanese youth find appealing in gaming but until someone provides some insight it's going to be very hard to understand how one can bridge not just a culture gap but an age gap.

AS for Japanese adults not having enough time to actually play games that is mostly a cultural issue. Sure Apple or a similar company will probably come in to dominate that market with bite sized games; but I see this pressured dedication to work as a problem not just for gaming but Japanese social dynamics. It puts the whole gender issues of Japan in a new light. It even puts their economy in a new light. But thoughts on that should be reserved for the offtopic forum.


Considering these revelations I don't understand Nintendo's thought process with the WiiU at all. It brings innovation to gaming I approve of; but this isn't the innovation Japan needs, considering this is the market Nintendo wants to cater to the most, since it is their home turf.

If most adults play in transit and with very little time to play they should approach gaming this gen with that in mind.
They should create games where you can pick up and play with people on the same train as you are.
They should make an online infrastructure with indepth stat tracking to pair up gamers of similar tastes as well as skill levels as quickly and smoothly as possible.
They need to make high quality games that are cheaper than current handheld offerings but are clarly superior to smartphone offering and thus can demand a premium. Sort of like Valves half assed episodic Half Life 2 Series where you make a very large game broken down into parts and customers buy the parts in bites. Each section feels selfcontained but each addition reveals more possibilities in gameplay experiences.
They probably need to make games that integrate with the every day lives of a human being in a portable format. Sort of like the Wiifit was a series of games that was integrated into the physical training habits of adults.


I'm bringing this all up because IMO to cater to Japanese adults as well as Western adults you need to make bitesized games that are suited to the electronic devices they carry around frequently.

Many of the devs from the bigger Western companies publicly stated their disinterest. Indie devs can't provide AAA content on a small platform. At some point some of these bigger companies are going to ahve to acknowledge that the only way to broaden the gaming market as well as bridge the east and west is to cater more to the chanigng portable space.

 

[Dunan]

I wonder where the original article writer got the idea that "western games are crap" (yōgē, kusogē).

Google turns up zero hits of those two words next to each other, and even this 2ch thread started ten days ago:

http://logsoku.com/thread/kamome.2ch.net/ghard/1314950667/

(洋ゲーってクソゲーばかりだよな; "western games are all crappy")

...is just one of a family of similar threads where you can proclaim any genre and any console to be a bunch of kusogē. And the thread itself has plenty of people supporting western games and mocking moe and gyaru games.

It's indeed a shame that so many Japanese developers are retreating to their teenage-boy niche or their otaku niche or whatever, but Western games are hardly dead.

As for adults giving up on console games: I think this is true to some extent. Typically in the household of a married couple, the television ceases to be a game monitor and becomes tuned during all waking hours to the insipid variety shows that the wife likes to watch. (Or, almost as often, not actively watch but just have on in the background.)

It's hard to describe just how simultaneously vapid and ubiquitous Japanese television culture is. There are only about 8 channels, and on any given one of them you'll find people from a core group of about twenty or so "TV talent" entertainers babbling about food or answering trivia questions about other entertainers.

And it isn't yet socially acceptable to shun this culture, particularly if you're married, in favor of the more participatory medium of video games. I have many friends ages 25-40 who loved games right up to the PS2, only to get married and find that their wives wanted those PS2s in storage and so they've jumped on the PSP/DS bandwagon. They've taken the path of least resistance and now watch vegetative TV variety shows for entertainment. I feel for them, because it's a huge step down. Combine this with the long working hours and you can see why console gaming has fallen off a cliff.

 

[BGBW]

So today I learnt;

• Moé is killing anime
• People don't know what Moé means.
• People are paid to not know what Moé means.
• Despite the article quoting a reasonable definition of Moé most have ignored it including the article writer
• People not knowing what Moé means is killing my intelligence.

 

[BocoDragon]

I wonder where the original article writer got the idea that "western games are crap" (yōgē, kusogē).

Google turns up zero hits of those two words next to each other, and even this 2ch thread started ten days ago:

http://logsoku.com/thread/kamome.2ch.net/ghard/1314950667/

(洋ゲーってクソゲーばかりだよな; "western games are all crappy")

...is just one of a family of similar threads where you can proclaim any genre and any console to be a bunch of kusogē. And the thread itself has plenty of people supporting western games and mocking moe and gyaru games.

It's indeed a shame that so many Japanese developers are retreating to their teenage-boy niche or their otaku niche or whatever, but Western games are hardly dead.

As for adults giving up on console games: I think this is true to some extent. Typically in the household of a married couple, the television ceases to be a game monitor and becomes tuned during all waking hours to the insipid variety shows that the wife likes to watch. (Or, almost as often, not actively watch but just have on in the background.)

It's hard to describe just how simultaneously vapid and ubiquitous Japanese television culture is. There are only about 8 channels, and on any given one of them you'll find people from a core group of about twenty or so "TV talent" entertainers babbling about food or answering trivia questions about other entertainers.

And it isn't yet socially acceptable to shun this culture, particularly if you're married, in favor of the more participatory medium of video games. I have many friends ages 25-40 who loved games right up to the PS2, only to get married and find that their wives wanted those PS2s in storage and so they've jumped on the PSP/DS bandwagon. They've taken the path of least resistance and now watch vegetative TV variety shows for entertainment. I feel for them, because it's a huge step down. Combine this with the long working hours and you can see why console gaming has fallen off a cliff.

Not too much is different in the west. TV is vapid and terrible. The woman would have a say in the TV usage.... the main difference is possibly square footage. Western men can often escape to a basement/second TV or the wife can do the same

Playing full games on a Wii U touchscreen seems like a realistic application for Japan...

 

[TheShampion]

This article seems like a gigantic stew of generalization. I have a hard time believing that we can just lump what "most Japanese people" do, respond to with for hobbies, and so forth. Is it really that static?

No, no it's not. Yes, Japanese society is "group oriented" but there are a whole lotta changes in social expectations and attitudes when going from city to city. Hell, everybody in Japan talks about how different people from Osaka are from people from Tokyo. And people from Okinawa and Kyushu is a whole different story entirely.

 

[wildfire]

Moé is killing gaming in Japan.

DOn't be an obtuse troll. They specifically said the Japanese equivalent of the indie market is heavily focused on moe. So getting something like Minecraft or Achron is very hard because o the cultural incompatibles of using japanese moe on westerners and the price of these games being more expensive than AAA games before import tariffs are applied.

Moé exists in the west but it is different from Japan.

As for large companies that produce the big budget games they stated moé was hardly a factor and cited other reasons for the cultural divide such as the perception of western games, japanese work habits and lifestyle and social patterns.

 

[BocoDragon]

Moé exists in the west but it is different from Japan.

such as?

 

[titiklabingapat]

I've always pegged it at the waning of Japanese economic and cultural influence of the past decade, which is the larger trend imo.

 

[wondermega]

Japan makes games "as toys"
America makes games as big business (like the film industry, well getting there)

they still see them as hobbies/things that are immature, diversions. And that was how it was until (ironically) Sony "grew everything up" with PS and then PS2, and it started becoming superhuge business. There's more to it than that of course, but that really is the watershed I can directly point to. Of course Microsoft carried the baton and ran with it... Xbox (and Halo, GTA, etc honestly) turned the market in the direction it has gone now.

 

[Dunan]

I've always pegged it at the waning of Japanese economic and cultural influence of the past decade, which is the larger trend imo.

That too, but also demographics. Births peaked in 1974 in Japan (baby boomer mothers had their kids a little earlier than in the west), so it was fine to chase 17-year-old fans to the exclusion of others back in 1991. Now, that target audience is getting smaller and smaller, and with today's birthrates at all-time lows, it's not going to reverse itself for a long time, if ever.

 

[wildfire]

Both Japanese and Western games have a problem catering to the other side, because the two cultures are completely different in what they like and dislike. This can be seen most readily with what Western and Japanese games most draw from in terms of influence. For the west, the popular games tend to ape the popular medium for the west... Hollywood movies. Meanwhile, the popular games in Japan tend to ape the popular medium for Japan... manga.

While in the early days this divide was not as noticeable due to both the west and Japan having limited specs to tell a story with requiring a person to have to fill in the gaps, this divide grew and grew as technology got better over time. Now you can easily tell a game made in the west from one made in Japan with a few notable exceptions.

This thought also crossed my mind as well but I ignored it because of the cultural impact of Final Fantasy VII. That game is so distinctly japanese Dick Cheney could recognize the difference between it and Morrowind instantly. IMO what killed the hyp train for Japanese games can also be attributed to so many games copying FF VII's usage of FMVs but overdoing it and making games less about playing and more about watching.

Japaness games earned a big stigma for being overblown movies because of that.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I knew the weeaboos would devolve this into an anime thread before it was over.

So who's your favorite tsundere? Mine is Yui Kotegawa.

 

[wildfire]

such as?

Brooding male with 12oclock sahdow.
Women with "natural" features but still exceptionally beautiful.

 

[BocoDragon]

Japan makes games "as toys"
America makes games as big business (like the film industry, well getting there)

they still see them as hobbies/things that are immature, diversions. And that was how it was until (ironically) Sony "grew everything up" with PS and then PS2, and it started becoming superhuge business. There's more to it than that of course, but that really is the watershed I can directly point to. Of course Microsoft carried the baton and ran with it... Xbox (and Halo, GTA, etc honestly) turned the market in the direction it has gone now.

I definitely agree with your statement about Japanese games being like "toys." Nintendo definitely is a toy company and always has been. Games like MGS control like toys rather than like shooters. RPGS, SHMUPs, DMC, Bayonetta, character action games.. very toy-like. Not "Sim-y". It's why I like them.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Not too much is different in the west. TV is vapid and terrible.

There is plenty of amazing television in the West. It's one thing that's actually pretty unique about Western television (unlike film, TV in most places tends to be terrible).

Very little approaching the quality of Mad Men/The Wire/Breaking Bad/The Sopranos/Seinfeld/The Simpsons/etc. gets made in most other countries from what I've seen, and certainly not at that quantity.

Even in the West you get the horrible serials and daytime soaps and reality TV, but unlike most other areas there are also many, many gems.

 

[Geneijin]

Really amazed by the sub-discussion in this thread about moe. Obvious conspiracy between the two apparent "sides," one saying 'it's loli' and the other saying 'no that's not what it means and I know what it means but I won't tell.' The point of this conspiracy? To annoy the everloving fuck out of me. Well done lads.

Well, it's because the article already addresses this misconception, yet some still ignorantly think moe = loli even after reading it:

The word is often used by westerners familiar with Japan to describe the lolicon (short for Lolita Complex) art style which focuses on young, often pre-pubescent girls, and seems to feature a disturbing mix of childlike cuteness with subtle and not-so-subtle sexual overtones.

This definition is not quite right according to Patrick Galbraith, a researcher of otaku culture at the University of Tokyo. "Moe is an affective response to a fictional character or representations of a character. There are two things that are important to note about this definition. First, we are talking about a response. Moe is used not to describe a character type or style, but rather characters that are likely to trigger a response or are designed with that in mind. This implies that there are a range of different characters that appeal men and women or various ages and orientations. Second, moe is a response to fictional characters, not actual people. Without this distinction, moe is conflated with descriptions such as 'cute' or 'sexy.'"

What else is there to elaborate on? Although the definition of moe I prefer to use would be "a euphoric, emotional response to a fictional/fantasy character or representations of them."

 

[Korigama]

A very late response, but...

I understand that people may like Japanese aesthetics or whatever, but really, can you name a single Japanese game this generation that you think has a story that doesn't reduce itself to parody by the end? I mean, true we have dumb shit like Gears of War and Call of Duty, but we also have the types of games I just mentioned.

Hotel Dusk (which also places significant focus on how you answer people/what questions you ask them, in addition to how you carry yourself when making the rounds). To elaborate, I would consider the conversations needed to advance the story comparable to how the social/CASIE augment segments work in Deus Ex: Human Revolution, in not only tone but the need to read the mood of the person you're speaking to, along with accounting for subject matter and that person's individual traits when determining what to discuss.

 

[akira28]

Wouldn't you want to protect that old lady?

Being warrior born, it is my duty to protect all life. This includes most old ladies. This one is not special.

Example of moe denied.

Sometimes its the cute old lady who is secretly the evil dragon lady.

 

[Rolf NB]

If you stare into 1up long enough, 1up stares back.

 

[akira28]

Further reading, it seems the problem is this. Japan used to be a god to us kids in the 80s. Everything cool came from Japan. I mean we would go to these import-export shops just to buy the cheap die-cast 'made in Taiwan' knockoffs because demand was so high. The money is still here and the demand potential remains, its just like they said, lack of interest is lack of interest. Japanese devs still have the originality and style and tech to make games that knock it out of the park, and success means millions of dollars, but they're just not interested in the gamble. There's a cultural devide, they're disconnected from us and seems like they aren't interested in finding out if they could even get wide market appeal. What niches they could fill for us.

Maybe there needs to be representation or some kind of middleman to help them see the opportunity. I could play Front Mission games all damn day bitch. Fucking make that shit. Fly me to Japan, I'll tell you.

 

[Tsukumo]

Yes, I do. I wish I could read Japanese. If it was a romance language like Spanish or French, or even germanic I would definitely have learned it by now. But the language is too complex, and in the end, I'm not sure it's worth it.

Reading and writing japanese may result in a steep, painful learning curve, but when it comes to grammar the language is waaay more easy to learn than romance languages.
I'm italian, I've learned japanese all by myself, I home-schooled a couple of students and I can tell you the biggest problem in learning japanese is the fact that teachers try to imprint the language by means of mother-toungue-only interactions in class. Teacher sometimes even snipe down students telling them only a small percentage of the class will make it to next year. This makes sense in the military or in corporate business (creating the elite mindset from the get-go I mean), but why would you want to make life difficult for people who have all the right intensions to get to know your culture?
I had students who were two years back in college exams and in a matter of five or six lessons I brought them up to speed: just because I explained to them how the japanese language works, instead of bashing their head with kore wa inu desu ka neko desu ka. Sure they laugh when you tell them if you can speak like Yoda you can speak japanese, but then they don't laugh anymore when that notion gets them to pass a language proficiency test.
Kanji too can be easy to figure out if you apply yourself and buy some kanji writing software on Ds, and if someone explains to you how the so called keys work.
There is a monstrous amount of awesome stuff that people who can't speak japanese have no chance to get to know, and I'm not talking just about videogames: nonsense mangas, japanese variety tv, japanese commercials, adventure novel games, light novels, politcal intrigue mangas, and absolutely unique anime like Gasaraki.
Now, I don't want to trivialize the efforts and the difficulties that people who approach the study of japanese language make every day. As a matter of fact the biggest reason for me was my refusal to being dependent on western softcos about which games to play and when, and my love for Super Robot Wars made it "easy" for me.
I always told my students japanese would change their lives: it sure did changed mine.

 

[Globox_82]

That seems both arrogant and ignorant all at the same time.

totally agree. but that was my take on Japanese gamer like forever.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

So today I learnt;

• Moé is killing anime
• People don't know what Moé means.
• People are paid to not know what Moé means.
• Despite the article quoting a reasonable definition of Moé most have ignored it including the article writer
• People not knowing what Moé means is killing my intelligence.

So what you're saying is, you are an expert?!

 

[Fewr]

One designer at a high-profile JRPG maker told us of the time he brought Bioshock into the office. While the younger members of the company were impressed, a high-ranking and well known producer played the game for thirty seconds, declared, "This game feels cheap," dropped the controller on the desk and walk away without another word.

haha jealousy
you can't judge a game by playing 30secs, at least do 5 mins

 

[Night_Trekker]

haha jealousy
you can't judge a game by playing 30secs, at least do 5 mins

Maybe he was a System Shock fan and felt let down? :/

 

[Zeouterlimits]

That Bioshock story is crazy, but the article losses a little credibility (in my eyes) by not being willing to say which JRPG developer. Could be Imageepoch for all we know.

Whatever about what Japanese devs are targeting, I do not understand why Japanese gamers are not interested in Western Games. I just don't get it.

 

[GenericUser]

I think this article is trying to explain why Japanese developers are abandoning consoles and flocking to handhelds.

where do they flee next? no, japanese developers have to take care of themselves, not steath blaming western devs for their incapacity.

 

[Tsukumo]

http://www.1up.com/features/japanese-games-breaking-west

The overall point makes sense, I do agree with it.
The single arguments that drove to such points? not so much.
I mean, it's fair to say moe it's a sick, unealthy characterization, but let's see what's the western trade-off: women like Anya from Gears, Miranda from Mass Effect 2, icey, teeth grinding female characters who talk like guys, act like guys but then all of a sudden they remember they do like men and snap! sex sequence. Ten years ago every male character in comic books and movies became Wolverine, because Wolverine is cool, Wolverine doesn't take shit, Wolverine angry, Wolverine like Hulk but he intelligent and hairy and has snikts. Now even every female character tries to act like Wolverine. THAT is not hot. THAT is as much sick and unhealty as a girl (a girl-character) who acts and looks like she is five even though she is fifteen or twenty.
Not every girl/woman/female character in a western game is as consistent with her own behavior like Morrigan, or Leliana or Wynne in Dragon Age, much like in japanese animation you rarely see characters with deep and complex emotionalities like Misato or Ritsuko in Evangelion. Now these are exceptions to the rule, and I think it's not reasonable to use what is basically just a trend to explain cultural and marketing differences.
It's not about the moe, nay.

 

[dramatis]

That Bioshock story is crazy, but the article losses a little credibility (in my eyes) by not being willing to say which JRPG developer. Could be Imageepoch for all we know.

Whatever about what Japanese devs are targeting, I do not understand why Japanese gamers are not interested in Western Games. I just don't get it.

Think about how many "high profile JRPG" makers there are in Japan, and think about how the author mentions no names. If he was asked to leave names out, then he couldn't fill in the blank but he left enough clues for you to guess.

 

[redlemon]

Moe? Really?

My understanding is that it's fairly obscure in Japanese gaming too. As far as I can remember the only really big title which is moe heavy would be love plus.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Think about how many "high profile JRPG" makers there are in Japan, and think about how the author mentions no names. If he was asked to leave names out, then he couldn't fill in the blank but he left enough clues for you to guess.

Lets say it's SE. SE has a lot of high profile guys, it could be anyone at that company. Atlus, Namco (Tales division).
I'd say some naming and shaming would go a long way, try to get an interview with this person, let us know if they refused etc.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Spoiler

Though to be fair, I think a lot of Japanese anime characters these days look like aliens.

 

[g.r.e.]

I thought that moe simply meant "cute girls doing cute things", like in this video, but I guess I'm not an expert enough.

 

[BanditKing]

I really dislike MOE it's ruining society.

 

[Fewr]

moe is the new la le li lo lu
I knew it!

 

[chaostrophy]

I guess it's just too bad, because when Japan does produce a game designed for a wider appeal, like MGS4, Demon's Souls, or Xenoblade, they still blow away anything from the West. Those games are just few and far between now.

 

[mujun]

Not too much is different in the west. TV is vapid and terrible.

It's a whole different level in Japan in my experience, there is little value except empty entertainment calories.

 

[Ravage]

I wonder where the original article writer got the idea that "western games are crap" (yōgē, kusogē).

Google turns up zero hits of those two words next to each other, and even this 2ch thread started ten days ago:

http://logsoku.com/thread/kamome.2ch.net/ghard/1314950667/

(洋ゲーってクソゲーばかりだよな; "western games are all crappy")

...is just one of a family of similar threads where you can proclaim any genre and any console to be a bunch of kusogē. And the thread itself has plenty of people supporting western games and mocking moe and gyaru games.

It's indeed a shame that so many Japanese developers are retreating to their teenage-boy niche or their otaku niche or whatever, but Western games are hardly dead.

As for adults giving up on console games: I think this is true to some extent. Typically in the household of a married couple, the television ceases to be a game monitor and becomes tuned during all waking hours to the insipid variety shows that the wife likes to watch. (Or, almost as often, not actively watch but just have on in the background.)

It's hard to describe just how simultaneously vapid and ubiquitous Japanese television culture is. There are only about 8 channels, and on any given one of them you'll find people from a core group of about twenty or so "TV talent" entertainers babbling about food or answering trivia questions about other entertainers.

And it isn't yet socially acceptable to shun this culture, particularly if you're married, in favor of the more participatory medium of video games. I have many friends ages 25-40 who loved games right up to the PS2, only to get married and find that their wives wanted those PS2s in storage and so they've jumped on the PSP/DS bandwagon. They've taken the path of least resistance and now watch vegetative TV variety shows for entertainment. I feel for them, because it's a huge step down. Combine this with the long working hours and you can see why console gaming has fallen off a cliff.

This is really insightful, thanks for sharing

 

[Solid warrior]

I think if you compare the Japanese games industry performance in the previous generation (PS2, GC, Xbox) to this generation (Xbox 360, PS3, Wii). You'll find out that. Japanese studios used to outperform the west in quantity AND quality. You can name a lot of excellent titles you've played during the previous generation that were Japanese made but you can name a fewer western titles, It's now the opposite this generation.

Sony's Japanese first party studios had the best games ever during older generation (ICO, SoTC, Gran Turismo) while western Sony studios had the most boring games IMO like Jak, Crash, Killzone 1 etc. This generation, Naughty Dog and other Sony western studios are leading the way, with cutting-edge tech and high production values titles, also you can observe how Sony is totally relying on their western first party developers this generation much more than before and If I'm not mistaken, the recent studios that Sony bought were western studios.

Capcom, Square Enix and Konami, the symbols/icons of Japan's game industry to the world, are lagging behind their western counterparts this generation in terms of technology, quantity and quality of games. Konami and Capcom's flagship titles, such as DMC, Silent Hill, Castlevania are now handled by non-Japanese studios.

Many prominent Japanese games developers have an opinion on this issue which sheds the light on the troublesome Japanese industry. A lot of Japanese developers has been fired or resigned due to the problems Japan's industry is facing. they've formed new studios, made partnerships with Western Publishers. but, very few of them succeed.

I think there is something wrong with the Japanese Industry, they can't keep up with what's happening anymore.

 

[RedSwirl]

So basically the Japanese game industry is becoming like the Japanese film industry - perfectly fine on its own, but largely irrelevant to the rest of the world (with the occasional internationally-acclaimed hit). Looking back, compared to other Japanese entertainment industries, gaming was kind of an outlier in terms of the amount of global influence it gained.

Though, that's probably because gaming shared just as much in common with entertainment as with electronics - a sector in which Japan did have (and still has) a lot of global influence. Do you see Japanese home appliances and cars losing popularity around the world? Not really, although what we're talking about is basically computers - a sector in which Japan never had a huge worldwide influence.

If it is indeed true that most of the Japanese game industry has decided to focus on its home audience, my question is: what's stopping that industry from shrinking?

I think if you compare the Japanese games industry performance in the previous generation (PS2, GC, Xbox) to this generation (Xbox 360, PS3, Wii). You'll find out that. Japanese studios used to outperform the west in quantity AND quality.

I'll also be another to say that the assertion that western gaming has gotten "better" isn't totally correct. It's just that all of the really good western developers (read: PC developers) have finally started making games on consoles. Most of the really "innovative" western stuff you're seeing on consoles now is the exact same thing you were seeing on PC 10 years ago.

 

[Ellis Kim]

Interesting article, and I particularly enjoyed the researched bits.

After listening to the recent 8-4 Play podcast episode with Ryan Payton, I'm incredibly interested in watching/listening/reading what it is that he had to say at the talks he did in mainland Asia and Japan with their game devs, about his experience between working with KojiPro and 343 Industries, and the things he learned of things that need to change with game design and development (e.g. If you're grinding in an MMORPG and killing hundreds upon thousands of monsters, make sure the game is about killing those monsters and that the story addresses that directly--its silly that you spend so many hours killing wildlife, yet the story is more about political melodrama than not).

I think the anecdote about the well-known producer dropping Bioshock after 30 seconds is a damn fucking shame, though, and I wonder how prevalent that sort of attitude actually is, especially considering how there are so many AAA game devs these days who talk about whatever new localized western game they're playing on twitter, e.g. Kojima, Suda, Mikami, etc.

One of the largest problems about Japanese games that try and ape western games are the ones that completely miss the point, or take the wrong lessons from those games and why they were a success in the west; God of War, I feel, largely was a success for having dumbed down combat for the masses that made you look "badass," and having greek mythology as something to relate with as a commonly taught subject in the K-12 education system. Then you have games like... what was it, Vampire Rain(?) or Quantum Theory, where they take the aesthetic side of western games that are easy to understand, and completely miss the point of what makes them good (i.e. well designed AI and combat instances).

 

[ScionOfTheRisingSun]

That Bioshock story is crazy, but the article losses a little credibility (in my eyes) by not being willing to say which JRPG developer. Could be Imageepoch for all we know.

Whatever about what Japanese devs are targeting, I do not understand why Japanese gamers are not interested in Western Games. I just don't get it.

The design focus of each region is different.

I find I generally share a similar taste in games as the average Japanese gamer but I've been living in a region where people generally prefer western game design, now pretty much across the board, but prior to this gen largely only on the PC which is where the western design process is rooted.

Western gamers who have shifted their taste to PC style game design just assume that because they like this approach better now then that approach is superior, they do not accept that it merely is just different. Different is not better, but if you like one and dislike the other then it is fallacy of human beings to just assume it is. This goes for Japanese gamers as well who have long regarded western games as being shit.

But then who can blame them, not liking something and regarding it as being shit really is not that different. Selfish thoughts rule eternal in the realm of personal sentiments.

Reading through or listening to some professional western reviewer's perspective on games such as Deus EX, Mass Effect, BioShock, Fallout 3 versus let us say something like Yakuza, Final Fantasy, Catherine, paints a pretty clear picture of how exactly and where the regional sentiments differ, and how they are largely irreconcilable.

to put it simply, when it comes down to it everyone likes the smell of their own. That is all there is to it.

I'll also be another to say that the assertion that western gaming has gotten "better" isn't totally correct. It's just that all of the really good western developers (read: PC developers) have finally started making games on consoles. Most of the really "innovative" western stuff you're seeing on consoles now is the exact same thing you were seeing on PC 10 years ago.

Give this man a cookie.

 

[Emitan]

I didn't like Bioshock either, but I gave up after 30 minutes.

 

[ScionOfTheRisingSun]

I didn't like Bioshock either, but I gave up after 30 minutes.

I gave it good two hours before closing the book on my initial thoughts that, yes, this is just another first person shooter, and yes, I still cannot stomach those types of games after they wore me out circa mid 90's.

This is where my differing sentiments to the western sheitgeist comes through. In the west, a growing trend has been that a well crafted narrative and setting can balance out and excuse derivative, or entirely absent gameplay in any title.

In Japan on the other hand this only holds true for graphic novels and RPGs, but for action games narrative and setting are mere clumsy afterthoughts blotted out of view and concern by the gameplay mechanic which reigns supreme and is the main concern of designer and players alike.

This is why I generally never could stomach the western design approach after it changed right around the mid 90's. To me setting and narrative are superfluous elements which play negligible roles in my gameplay experience. I am a mechanics sort of guy and I will not suffer derivative, janky and unpolished gameplay just because a game is trying to do something interesting in terms of narrative or setting.

A game can be as interesting as in that regard, it often does not even registers in my mind, my mind just naturally skims over such things when I play a game, so if the gameplay mechanics are not interesting, polished and well crafted then my interest is already lost.

Similarly I will excuse derivative, janky and unpolished narrative and setting as long as the gameplay is solid. This is why none of the western sheitgeist complaints aimed at Final Fantasy XIII resonate with me because my only thought on that game was that finally here is an RPG doing something interesting and unique with the combat mechanics.

 

[Jintor]

to put it simply, when it comes down to it everyone likes the smell of their own. That is all there is to it.

It's not neccessarily 'the smell of their own'. There are probably quite a few reviewers out there who can like both the best of Western games and the best of Eastern games.

I liked Bioshock, but not for its gameplay.

 

[Emitan]

I gave it good two hours, before closing the book on my initial thoughts that, yes, this is just another first person shooter, and yes, I still cannot stomach those types of games after they wore me out circa mid 90's.

To be clear, my first try was 30 minutes. A friend forced me to play it for 90 minutes more before giving up. It's not that I don't like single player FPS games, I just don't think Bioshock is very fun.

 

[Rahxephon91]

Moé is killing gaming in Japan.

See, I don't see how that's true. It's effecting a small niche of games that we would have never gotten here or cared about. Those type of strange otaku games always existed in Japan. Are they even that big in Japan? The article even says it doesn't even effect big franchisees in Japan, the ones we would care about. And if anything the "moe" games we do care about here come over and apparently have a small but dedicated following that keeps NIS alive.

So how is moe killing gaming in Japan?