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[mrklaw]

New subtopic: predict what the X360 userbase will look like 6 months from launch, i.e. what percentage will have the crippled version and what percentage will have the full Ferrari?

depends completely on what proportion of each MS ships.

And I don't buy this "depends on how many of each the stores order". Stores will order as many as they like, and MS will go " you can have x core, and y premium". My personal bet is that MS will ship many more premium.

MS are taking a big gamble on high prices next gen. Yes, Sony might take the same route, but it could be argued that they have the userbase to play that gamble.MS don't and they could simply see themselves selling fewer X360s in the run up to PS3 launch (which is the last thing they need)

 

[PhatSaqs]

MS isn't going to support alternatives. Alternatives will require drivers, and if MS is charging $100 for theirs then they're not going to allow third party products (at 1/5th the price) to work. There may be hacks available later on, but that won't change anything for the regular consumer.

Dont be so sure. People thought the same thing when MS released this.
And you could always get a bridge for even cheaper than their adapter.

 

[Striek]

And I don't buy this "depends on how many of each the stores order". Stores will order as many as they like, and MS will go " you can have x core, and y premium". My personal bet is that MS will ship many more premium.

How does it benefit MS to ship the premium version? Its in *their* best interests to sell a HDD-less system.

 

[EviLore]

Dont be so sure. People thought the same thing when MS released this.
And you could always get a bridge for even cheaper than their adapter.

Ethernet bridges don't have the software requirements that usb wifi adapters do. By nature of the device, other bridges will work with the xbox 1. MS has nothing to do with whether or not the linksys and d-link bridges work. Different story for usb wifi adapters.

It is a gray area since nothing's confirmed, but those are the expectations. MS would be stupid to do otherwise. At 3-5x higher prices, their product may as well not exist if the xbox 360 supports all usb wifi adapters.

 

[truffleshuffle83]

How does it benefit MS to ship the premium version? Its in *their* best interests to sell a HDD-less system.

charging an extra $100 for $50 dollars worth of accessories is how it benefits them. the same reason why sony only sold PSP value packs in the US. so the can recoup some of their losses

 

[DarienA]

My point is that the $299 pricepoint is quite an achievement for a next gen machine with the specs of 360.

As compared to what? Each generation when consoles launch there specs are incredibly compared to the last generation... Their internals are also initially expensive compared to the last generation... Costs also rise compared to previous generation... Why all of the sudden now is it such a stretch to squeeze a console in at $299?

That's the question I'm asking.

It's scary how little people now about wifi in here.... if one more person compares a the X360 USB Wifi dongle to a friggin Ethernet Bridge.... well then I'll have to comment on it again... I guess.

 

[truffleshuffle83]

i dont see how people can even complain about the console price. how much is a new top of the line graphics card on a pc when the first get released $400-500. thats just a graphics card, nothing else. isnt the 360 gonna have the best graphics card when it first releases??

 

[urk]

How does it benefit MS to ship the premium version? Its in *their* best interests to sell a HDD-less system.

Microsoft has stated that they full expect the Premium edition to be the big seller. The Core system is there so they can say that they entered the market at $300 and sell a ton of ramped up peripherals to the dumbshits who buy it. $40 Memory Unit right out of the box. Oh, you wanted HD? Another $40 please. Wireless? You get the idea.

 

[DarienA]

i dont see how people can even complain about the console price. how much is a new top of the line graphics card on a pc when the first get released $400-500. thats just a graphics card, nothing else. isnt the 360 gonna have the best graphics card when it first releases??

...

 

[Deku]

Microsoft has stated that they full expect the Premium edition to be the big seller. The Core system is there so they can say that they entered the market at $300 and sell a ton of ramped up peripherals to the dumbshits who buy it. $40 Memory Unit right out of the box. Oh, you wanted HD? Another $40 please. Wireless? You get the idea.

With the hardcore gamers that will be buying the ultra-premium version if it came with a giant metal case with the Xbox logo on it and no real practical use for $700.

Will it last? The argument is about how the dual SKU is going to help developers decide what kind of games to write when the more casual users enter the market and decide they don't really want to buy the one with the HDD.

I'm sure developers like EA will, regardless of how well the HDD version sells, always write their game for the lowest common denominator.

 

[PhatSaqs]

Ethernet bridges don't have the software requirements that usb wifi adapters do. By nature of the device, other bridges will work with the xbox 1. MS has nothing to do with whether or not the linksys and d-link bridges work.

Actually they do. There are only a couple of brigdes that will sync up with the XB Dash board and allow for config via the Xbox without the need for configuring via PC. These bridges carry an "Xbox Compatible" logo as well. How exactly MS controls this I have no idea but I know for a fact that not all bridges can do this as I had to return an older Linksys and a D-Link that I had trouble with. You're right in that the bridges do not require drivers of course.

It is a gray area since nothing's confirmed, but those are the expectations. MS would be stupid to do otherwise. At 3-5x higher prices, their product may as well not exist if the xbox 360 supports all usb wifi adapters.

You could be right and it does make business sense for MS but I wouldnt bet on no other available adapters being supported.

 

[urk]

The developers can easily code for both systems. Just look at Oblivion.

 

[DarienA]

The developers can easily code for both systems. Just look at Oblivion.

...What are you talking about?

 

[Chittagong]

 

[urk]

...What are you talking about?

The games will utilize the hard drive if it is available and make provisions when it isn't. Developers don't have to code only for the LCD, they can build the game how they want and then make provisions for the missing drive that MS had informed them of prior to the public reveal.

 

[PhatSaqs]

Now that shit aint even funny....

 

[Reilly]

assuming you made those, I'd watermark them.

 

[urk]

That's Velocity Girl on the far right.

 

[SteveMeister]

The $299 core system isn't for idiots. It'll play almost every Xbox 360 game, just not the VERY few games that Microsoft will allow to require the HDD. It'll connect to Live via its Ethernet port. Yeah, they won't be able to download content, or do all the cool multimedia stuff that they could do with the HDD, and their load times might be longer. But they'll still be able to play the games.

So they save $100. And if they decide later they want all the cool stuff the HDD provides, they can always buy it 6 months or a year or two later. And who knows, maybe there'll be LARGER hard disks and/or cheaper ones.

You see, most folks who buy consoles just want to play the games. And the core system is perfectly fine for doing that. You want to "full experience?" Get the $399 system. It's a good deal when you compare it to the a la carte cost of accessories. But if you don't care about the extra stuff and just want to play the games, there is absolutely nothing wrong with buying the $299 system.

This whole "debate" is idiotic.

 

[DarienA]

The $299 core system isn't for idiots. It'll play almost every Xbox 360 game, just not the VERY few games that Microsoft will allow to require the HDD. It'll connect to Live via its Ethernet port. Yeah, they won't be able to download content, or do all the cool multimedia stuff that they could do with the HDD, and their load times might be longer. But they'll still be able to play the games.

So they save $100. And if they decide later they want all the cool stuff the HDD provides, they can always buy it 6 months or a year or two later. And who knows, maybe there'll be LARGER hard disks and/or cheaper ones.

You see, most folks who buy consoles just want to play the games. And the core system is perfectly fine for doing that. You want to "full experience?" Get the $399 system. It's a good deal when you compare it to the a la carte cost of accessories. But if you don't care about the extra stuff and just want to play the games, there is absolutely nothing wrong with buying the $299 system.

This whole "debate" is idiotic.

I'm curious... and this isn't an insult, it's just a simple question.

Do any of the people who defend this multiple sku system at least understand why some of us feel that next generation you're getting less for you $299 than you did this generation?

 

[EviLore]

Actually they do. There are only a couple of brigdes that will sync up with the XB Dash board and allow for config via the Xbox without the need for configuring via PC. These bridges carry an "Xbox Compatible" logo as well. How exactly MS controls this I have no idea but I know for a fact that not all bridges can do this as I had to return an older Linksys and a D-Link that I had trouble with. You're right in that the bridges do not require drivers of course.

*shrug*, probably some preset in the software on the PC side to make things easier. Working, but possibly requiring configuration, makes it sound that way.

You could be right and it does make business sense for MS but I wouldnt bet on no other available adapters being supported.

If other adapters are supported they'll likely be at around the same price, with a hefty ($50?) fee sent to MS. But we'll see a few months down the road.

 

[Izzy]

The $299 core system isn't for idiots. It'll play almost every Xbox 360 game, just not the VERY few games that Microsoft will allow to require the HDD. It'll connect to Live via its Ethernet port. Yeah, they won't be able to download content, or do all the cool multimedia stuff that they could do with the HDD, and their load times might be longer. But they'll still be able to play the games.

So they save $100. And if they decide later they want all the cool stuff the HDD provides, they can always buy it 6 months or a year or two later. And who knows, maybe there'll be LARGER hard disks and/or cheaper ones.

You see, most folks who buy consoles just want to play the games. And the core system is perfectly fine for doing that. You want to "full experience?" Get the $399 system. It's a good deal when you compare it to the a la carte cost of accessories. But if you don't care about the extra stuff and just want to play the games, there is absolutely nothing wrong with buying the $299 system.

This whole "debate" is idiotic.

I disagree with you. However, I do understand why keep on defending MS' move, thread after thread.

 

[rastex]

I
Do any of the people who defend this multiple sku system at least understand why some of us feel that next generation you're getting less for you $299 than you did this generation?

If you were an Xbox owner of which there were very few relative to the PS2. The HDD isn't that big of a deal, even if EVERY user had one, the use of the HDD in games doesn't make a significant difference to the experience. THAT is what you have to understand. What it's useful for is the fact that you don't have to buy multiple memory cards, downloadable content etc. So fragmenting the userbase isn't really an issue.

 

[SteveMeister]

I'm not defending anything. I just disagree that the $299 system is worthless. It's that part of the debate that I find idiotic.

As far as not getting as much for $299 as last generation, well sure, it would have been nice if Microsoft could have included the HDD for $299. I don't think the decision is going to kill the Xbox 360's chances -- early adopters being what early adopters are. I guess I just don't see it as a huge deal.

 

[DarienA]

If you were an Xbox owner of which there were very few relative to the PS2. The HDD isn't that big of a deal, even if EVERY user had one, the use of the HDD in games doesn't make a significant difference to the experience. THAT is what you have to understand. What it's useful for is the fact that you don't have to buy multiple memory cards, downloadable content etc. So fragmenting the userbase isn't really an issue.

Wow that didn't answer my question at all maybe I didn't word it correctly... my question is based on the "perception" of the Xbox user not the developers actual usage of the thing.

From my experience the "perception" of the Xbox userbase has been that they loved the HDD because of all the the things they "perceived" it could was doing.....

So now all of the sudden the next system you have the option to purchase it without the HDD?

You don't think that has any affect on the perception of the unit?

I'm not defending anything. I just disagree that the $299 system is worthless. It's that part of the debate that I find idiotic.

As far as not getting as much for $299 as last generation, well sure, it would have been nice if Microsoft could have included the HDD for $299. I don't think the decision is going to kill the Xbox 360's chances -- early adopters being what early adopters are. I guess I just don't see it as a huge deal.

Oh I don't think it kills the systems chances either... I am curious as to how much of an affect it will have on the perception of the unit by consumers.

 

[Guy LeDouche]

With these things in mind, you can tell they've been quite truthful.

LAFFO

"If you ignore all the lies and misdirection, they have been very truthful."

The $299 core system isn't for idiots. It'll play almost every Xbox 360 game, just not the VERY few games that Microsoft will allow to require the HDD. It'll connect to Live via its Ethernet port. Yeah, they won't be able to download content, or do all the cool multimedia stuff that they could do with the HDD, and their load times might be longer. But they'll still be able to play the games.

So they save $100. And if they decide later they want all the cool stuff the HDD provides, they can always buy it 6 months or a year or two later. And who knows, maybe there'll be LARGER hard disks and/or cheaper ones.

You see, most folks who buy consoles just want to play the games. And the core system is perfectly fine for doing that. You want to "full experience?" Get the $399 system. It's a good deal when you compare it to the a la carte cost of accessories. But if you don't care about the extra stuff and just want to play the games, there is absolutely nothing wrong with buying the $299 system.

This whole "debate" is idiotic.

MS's theme behind the E3 presentation is that gamers will buy the X360 because of Live, DLC, microtransactions, the community, as well as backwards compatibility etc. With the core pack, they are eliminating all of the reasons to buy a X360.

 

[DSN2K]

my reaction....

bring on November

 

[rastex]

From my experience the "perception" of the Xbox userbase has been that they loved the HDD because of all the the things they "perceived" it could was doing.....

So now all of the sudden the next system you have the option to purchase it without the HDD?

You don't think that has any affect on the perception of the unit?

See this is the point. The average consumer, even the more technically minded, have absolutely no idea about things like caching etc. The main perception of the consumer was that they don't have to buy a memory card, ever, and they can rip their custom soundtracks to the HD, that's hwo the majority of users viewed the HDD. Of course on the Internet forums where people are about 10000x more knowledgeable about consoles and such, they think the caching is important, and I'm telling you that it's not. But Internet people when it comes to consoles, aren't particularly important to the market. And amongst Internet people it's not even unanimous against the 2 SKU, there's just a VERY vocal group of people constantly bashing the price points.

So again, back to the perception, there's the PS2 user who is used to memory cards and cheaper consoles, THAT is who MS is going for with the Core package. Then there's the Xbox user who likes having the large persistent storage and expanded media options, and due to their demographics (more affluent technophiles) they'll go for the Premium pack with absolute NO concern about fragmenting the userbase, etc. Oh and this makes even more sense when you look at the Premium pack supporting Backwards Compatibility.

 

[Chi-Town]

I've lost track of the number of times over the years I've had to tell casual consumers that they didn't need to buy a memory card with the Xbox. They were buying the system and had no idea it had a hard drive built-in. They've become used to doing this over the years buying PSOnes and PS2s.

 

[DarienA]

See this is the point. The average consumer, even the more technically minded, have absolutely no idea about things like caching etc. The main perception of the consumer was that they don't have to buy a memory card, ever, and they can rip their custom soundtracks to the HD, that's hwo the majority of users viewed the HDD. Of course on the Internet forums where people are about 10000x more knowledgeable about consoles and such, they think the caching is important, and I'm telling you that it's not. But Internet people when it comes to consoles, aren't particularly important to the market. And amongst Internet people it's not even unanimous against the 2 SKU, there's just a VERY vocal group of people constantly bashing the price points.

So again, back to the perception, there's the PS2 user who is used to memory cards and cheaper consoles, THAT is who MS is going for with the Core package. Then there's the Xbox user who likes having the large persistent storage and expanded media options, and due to their demographics (more affluent technophiles) they'll go for the Premium pack with absolute NO concern about fragmenting the userbase, etc. Oh and this makes even more sense when you look at the Premium pack supporting Backwards Compatibility.

So you're saying that most of the current "average, non Internet savvy" Xbox owners are going to go for the Premium pack without balking at the additional $100?

Respectfully sir, I disagree.

 

[PhatSaqs]

So you're saying that most of the current "average, non Internet savvy" Xbox owners are going to go for the Premium pack without balking at the additional $100?

Respectfully sir, I disagree.

Think he's saying the exact opposite.

 

[Razoric]

Think he's saying the exact opposite.

From what I read he said PS2 owners are gonna likely buy the "Core System" because they are used to not having a hard drive and Xbox owners are gonna get the premium pack with the HDD.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Yes, there is a difference between the wavebird and a wired controller. You can argue all you want, I have experienced it.

WTF??!! Look, if it's one, ONE, thing Nintendo did right and innovated this gen it was the fucking gift from God Wavebird.

I don't know one person who got a wavebird that went back to a wired controller.

But no rumble, you know what, I bet most people have become so oblivious to the rumble of a wired controller that you barely notice it anymore.

 

[SteveMeister]

I don't know one person who got a wavebird that went back to a wired controller.

*raises hand*

 

[Guy LeDouche]

So again, back to the perception, there's the PS2 user who is used to memory cards and cheaper consoles, THAT is who MS is going for with the Core package. Then there's the Xbox user who likes having the large persistent storage and expanded media options, and due to their demographics (more affluent technophiles) they'll go for the Premium pack with absolute NO concern about fragmenting the userbase, etc. Oh and this makes even more sense when you look at the Premium pack supporting Backwards Compatibility.

Next-gen, MS can't just do what Sony did this gen. They have to give gamers a reason to jump from PS2. PS3 will be backwards compatible with PS1/PS2 right out of the box (+1 over X360) and memory cards will be much cheaper/bigger (+1 over X360). On top of that, it appears as though PS3 will be more powerful (-1 for MS from last gen) and at least equal HDD support (both non-standard).

 

[Fatghost]

Next-gen, MS can't just do what Sony did this gen. They have to give gamers a reason to jump from PS2. PS3 will be backwards compatible with PS1/PS2 right out of the box (+1 over X360) and memory cards will be much cheaper/bigger (+1 over X360). On top of that, it appears as though PS3 will be more powerful (-1 for MS from last gen) and at least equal HDD support (both non-standard).

And don't forget PS3 will have bluRay out of the box too. Also -1 for MS.

 

[truffleshuffle83]

dont forget most gamers cant wait to jump into to next gen. +1000000 to ms, they are first outta the gates and already have a decent userbase

 

[Fatghost]

dont forget most gamers cant wait to jump into to next gen. +1000000 to ms, they are first outta the gates and already have a decent userbase

First mover advantage doesn't really seem to help. Sega was first mover for three generations and was only successful once, and even then only managed to get into second place world wide (and was still third in Japan).

 

[human5892]

dont forget most gamers cant wait to jump into to next gen.

You're basing this on...?

already have a decent userbase

What? People who already have the 360?

 

[Guy LeDouche]

dont forget most gamers cant wait to jump into to next gen. +1000000 to ms, they are first outta the gates and already have a decent userbase

Two questions:

How many PS1s sold in the first year vs subsequent years?
How many PS2s sold in the first year vs subsequent years?

 

[Razoric]

edit: wrong thread :O

 

[cyberheater]

I'm curious... and this isn't an insult, it's just a simple question.

Do any of the people who defend this multiple sku system at least understand why some of us feel that next generation you're getting less for you $299 than you did this generation?

How are you getting less. Just putting the hard drive aside for one moment and forgetting any display devices etc...
How much money would you have to spend to get a PC that could do what a 360 can do.
I don't think one exists.

Okay your not getting a hdd in the base unit but for $299 you getting a hell of a machine.

Seriously. There's no pleasing some folks. Your getting a porsche for the price of a ford. If you want the fancy wheels then you going to have to pay for em. I understand your pain.

 

[DarienA]

How are you getting less. Just putting the hard drive aside for one moment and forgetting any display devices etc...

Uh no putting aside something that was previously in there means less.

How much money would you have to spend to get a PC that could do what a 360 can do. I don't think one exists.

You should be a car salesman... I don't care nor is the PC comparison IMO even valid because a PC is a multi-function machine that has a whole bunch more going on than just being able to play games.

 

[Xellotah]

The $299 core system isn't for idiots. It'll play almost every Xbox 360 game, just not the VERY few games that Microsoft will allow to require the HDD. It'll connect to Live via its Ethernet port. Yeah, they won't be able to download content, or do all the cool multimedia stuff that they could do with the HDD, and their load times might be longer. But they'll still be able to play the games.

I'd venture to say that the $299 core system is the one for smarties. Since there will be very few games that will support the HDD exclusively now. There really isn't a point in getting the premium edition.

 

[kaching]

I'm curious... and this isn't an insult, it's just a simple question.

Do any of the people who defend this multiple sku system at least understand why some of us feel that next generation you're getting less for you $299 than you did this generation?

Personally, not really. Or, I should say, I understand why but its because you're looking at the HDD issue in a vaccuum. Total package at $299 - how are you getting less than you did this generation?

Things you get with 299 X360 that you didn't get with 299 Xbox:

- Dramatically improved CPU, GPU and RAM specs
- Support for wireless controllers OTOB
- Standard USB 2.0 connectors with support promised for variety of standard USB media devices - flash mem cards, digital cameras, mp3 players, etc.
- Far more robust front-end OS services, accessible instantly from any game
- connectivity with services on a standard home network

Balanced against the exclusion of a built-in hdd (but NOT support for one) and I can't say that it's a step back.

As for what it means in terms of X360 games supporting the HDD, I'm willing to bet that once the dust settles the following will be true:

- Virtually 100% of games will be able to use the hdd for game saves
- At least parity of custom soundtrack support among X360 games based on % of Xbox library that did, but I expect higher percentage to do so on the X360
- 50-60% of the X360 library will be able to utilize the HDD for something other than game saves or custom soundtracks, whether its DLC, caching, whatever.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

- At least parity of custom soundtrack support among X360 games based on % of Xbox library that did, but I expect higher percentage to do so on the X360

I thought J Allard said that every game has to support custom soundtracks?

 

[kaching]

I thought I had seen that but wasn't absolutely sure, Dr_C. So I went for the safe bet

 

[Beer Monkey]

I'd venture to say that the $299 core system is the one for smarties. Since there will be very few games that will support the HDD exclusively now. There really isn't a point in getting the premium edition.

Yeah, it's much better to buy a couple of memory cards and pay almost the same amount.

Heck, if you are ever going to plan on Live or plan on getting an HDTV in the next few years, you are a mouth-breathing retard if you buy the 'core'.

 

[Guy LeDouche]

my thoughts in bold

Personally, not really. Or, I should say, I understand why but its because you're looking at the HDD issue in a vaccuum. Total package at $299 - how are you getting less than you did this generation?

Things you get with 299 X360 that you didn't get with 299 Xbox:

- Dramatically improved CPU, GPU and RAM specs both were top of the line at the time
- Support for wireless controllers OTOB that's like saying "FREE SODA - CUPS COST $1"
- Standard USB 2.0 connectors with support promised for variety of standard USB media devices - flash mem cards, digital cameras, mp3 players, etc. should be a standard feature this gen, like DVD playback last gen. PS3 wins with built-in support for flash cards
- Far more robust front-end OS services, accessible instantly from any game this is pretty fucking cool
- connectivity with services on a standard home network advantage X360. XBox 1 had best in-game music (re: only) support and Sony can't really do more than what MS is doing, minus cool PSP support.

Balanced against the exclusion of a built-in hdd (but NOT support for one) and I can't say that it's a step back.

 

[DarienA]

Things you get with 299 X360 that you didn't get with 299 Xbox:

- Dramatically improved CPU, GPU and RAM specs
- Support for wireless controllers OTOB
- Standard USB 2.0 connectors with support promised for variety of standard USB media devices - flash mem cards, digital cameras, mp3 players, etc.
- Far more robust front-end OS services, accessible instantly from any game
- connectivity with services on a standard home network

You're going to get improved specs each generation. Much of the above is fluff in terms of what the system does in terms of playing games.. nice for sure but the connections to media devices means nothing for me when I'm playing games... the additional XBL integration is nice... but again that means nothing to me as far as the current 1 game I would be playing... ditto for the connectivity to the network.

- 50-60% of the X360 library will be able to utilize the HDD for something other than game saves or custom soundtracks, whether its DLC, caching, whatever.

I think that's a bold prediction.