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[64bitmodels]

It's no wonder CRPGs and WRPGs have blown up ever since after Skyrim, people want more choice and RPG mechanics in their RPG games. Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest did have RPG mechanics but they were lacking in the aspects that didn't have to do with combat, you had no choice in story. Meanwhile Baldur's Gate 3 gives a more complex battle system than any final fantasy while still having more story choice than any of those games either, die rolls that can influence the world, different dialogue options for different classes, etc.

Baldur's Gate 3 is how JRPGs should evolve, adding more choice and player expression rather than more flashy action oriented combat. Looking at you FFXVI

It's not the first time it's been done and it's probably not the first it's blown up, but this should let JRPG developers know that more choice and freedom in JRPGs would go a long way. JRPGs haven't evolved much since the 90s/2000s in core mechanics and it's a real shame when studios like Square could really do more and put their budget towards freedom in choice and a diverse gameplay loop rather than spectacle and flashiness

The only games i can think of that really try and hold a candle are Persona, and even then you're still more railroaded in that game than you are BG3.

 

[hyperbertha]

The travesty that is Ff16 does not represent jrpgs in any way shape or form. Higher the AAA, less the choice.

 

[64bitmodels]

The travesty that is Ff16 does not represent jrpgs in any way shape or form. Higher the AAA, less the choice.

this is all JRPGs. not just FF16. I am saying that even if Square were releasing Sakaguchi tier FF games in 2023 it wouldn't hold a candle to what Baldur's Gate is doing. The genre needs to evolve

 

[bbeach123]

Huh ? JRPGs never about the choice , its about the adventure/Journey .

 

[hyperbertha]

this is all JRPGs. not just FF16. I am saying that even if Square were releasing Sakaguchi tier FF games in 2023 it wouldn't hold a candle to what Baldur's Gate is doing. The genre needs to evolve

Having choices in story has its own set of disadvantages. It's ok to have a linear story as long as gameplay has choices and depth.

 

[Dr_Salt]

So is this a stealth FF16 hate thread?
Also alot of WRPG devs should learn a thing or two from BG3. Its not only JRPGs that are lacking.

 

[64bitmodels]

am i tripping or what? thread got taken down but now it's back up...?

Also alot of WRPG devs should learn a thing or two from BG3 also

mostly on shipping a functioning game, but yeah you're right.

Having choices in story has its own set of disadvantages.

the advantages though are tremendous. You get a game with much more replayablility due to not just having combat freedom in how you build your character but story freedom as well. It's a game thats not just fun the first time around

 

[killatopak]

For the games I have played, I don’t think any JRPG has presented really meaningful choices. The only exception to those are SMT games.

The choices are more constrained to stats and equipment. Storywise, they are more linear and even if presented with a choice, most are only really impactful near the end.

If you count SRPG, there are some JRPGs that have numerous hidden requirements that allows you to choose what path the story takes that are sprinkled throughout the game. Rather than a menu to choose how your story ends, it’s more like certain triggers are necessary for the path to diverge.

 

[lh032]

but JRPG is about adventure story with RPG elements.
It was never a CRPG though. most we get is tactics but its not even DnD type of game

 

[YukiOnna]

Huh ? JRPGs never about the choice , its about the adventure/Journey .

Yeah. the roleplay comes from filling the shoes of the protagonist and the journey and experience you go on, whether silent or someone with character.
They're not really comparable or need to learn from anything. Stuff can be borrowed and tweaked to fit the style, sure.

Then again, I don't really want choice in the story. What FromSoft does fills my limit.

 

[64bitmodels]

One example of a JRPG that kinda pisses me off with the lack of choice is Persona 5.

I like the game a lot, especially the characters and story. but it SUCKSS that most choices don't really impact the story or the direction you're going. So many choices in cutscenes are incredibly biased and are really just there for flavor text. Or how you can't set your own plan to steal someone's heart after setting the capture card, and you have to follow the specific script. It's cool, but they could've done a lot more with that.

 

[bbeach123]

Tbh I dont even call FF16 a "rpg" . Odyssey and the new GOW had more "rpg elements" than this game .

More like a linear action-adventure game with a little tiny bit of rpg elements .

 

[Ozzie666]

I was always under the impression that JRPG became more about the character, fairly linear experiences where the game tells you the story. JPRG deviated from the traditional CRPG and WRPGS of the 80's. The decision, choice and freedom to play in many ways is more of a WRPG thing with very little character development. Wizardry, Might and Magic, Ultima and Bard's Tale were some of the most influential titles in these genres. Look at Final Fantasy, Dragon's Quest and Phantasy Star and their progressions. It was easier to see the divergence in the 80's. Harder now since everyone is chasing that Western Audience, that includes FF16.

In Final fantasy, you learn a lot about each party member. In Ultima, you learned very little about your party members, beyond their towns, class and names.

 

[Robb]

Huh ? JRPGs never about the choice , it’s about the adventure/Journey .

This would be my take as well.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

So is this a stealth FF16 hate thread?
Also alot of WRPG devs should learn a thing or two from BG3. Its not only JRPGs that are lacking.

Nothing stealth about it... FF was named at least twice in the OPan in the first two posts in this thread. Wouldn't it be great if we just let games be games and stand on their own merit instead of wishing everything becomes like something else?

 

[Gandih42]

One example of a JRPG that kinda pisses me off with the lack of choice is Persona 5.

I like the game a lot, especially the characters and story. but it SUCKSS that most choices don't really impact the story or the direction you're going. So many choices in cutscenes are incredibly biased and are really just there for flavor text. Or how you can't set your own plan to steal someone's heart after setting the capture card, and you have to follow the specific script. It's cool, but they could've done a lot more with that.

A JRPG with the kind of player-driven narrative a game like BG3 has would be cool. I guess in reductive terms you could describe it as an "Anime Baldurs Gate".

But I think you're also missing the point of the JPRGs you bring up. The gameplay, cutscenes, spectacles, and characters of the games you mention are built around a linear kind of narrative. The word "RPG" in most JRPGs is not trying imply a branching narrative.

With the FFXVI example, love it or hate it, there are not development resources in the world to create set pieces like the Eikon battles AND have a deeply choice driven narrative. But I'm sure the must be other JPRGs that DO try to present a story driven by player choice, and they could probably learn a lot from a game like BG3.

 

[EviLore]

FFXVI is arguably more of a character action game with a lot of filler than a proper JRPG. Its problems are less of a problem with JRPGs than a bunch of specific bad design decisions. Looking at more typical genre fare, FF7R was great and I'm looking forward to Rebirth. I'll set aside FromSoft since they're the enlightened god-kings of gaming and don't need to improve on what they're doing, essentially creating their own subgenre with hundreds of pretenders. I don't want FromSoft games to be more like BG3. Beyond that, everyone's been encouraging me to try the Trails series recently too and that seems like a JRPG series playing to the genre's strengths.

It's a big industry, there's room for many different flavors. BG3 does show just how incredible a CRPG can be with ambition, care, talent, and sufficient resources. It's a crowning achievement of the genre and I can only hope that other CRPG devs shed their tears and get over the pity party, then attempt new ambitious titles in the genre. But instead we'll probably mostly get shovelware like Avowed, because the suits think that dumbing down games for the broadest possible lowest common denominator audience is always the path to victory.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

While it's true that most JRPGs lack choice/consequence, the good ones make up for it with fun and interesting characters and great adventure/exploration and gameplay, like Xenoblade Chronicles.

 

[donkey_oaty]

Phil Fish was right

 

[Sleepwalker]

Nah I think JRPGs are fine, I think of them as watching an anime show, I'm here for the ride. I don't really need to or want to impact the story, I want them to tell me their story.

This is also true for some WRPGs.


I love BG3 but I don't want every game to be BG3, the same goes for Zelda and to a lesser extent Elden Ring. (I didnt enjoy ER that much but I can appreciate it)

 

[Danjin44]

Unmmm… I’m not fan of CRPG so I don’t want my JRPGs be anything like CRPGs.

 

[FullMetalx117]

Kudos to BG3. But I’m thankful FF16 turned out the way it was, I needed a game like that. BG3 can be what it is, FF16 doesn’t have to follow

 

[Barakov]

Phil Fish was right

 

[Danjin44]

If you want CRPG then go play CRPG, people who enjoy JRPG are looking for different type of expriance than games like BG3.

We don’t need every game play like each other, variety is good for industry.

 

[Kusarigama]

CRPG is... Computer role playing game?

 

[64bitmodels]

Huh ? JRPGs never about the choice , its about the adventure/Journey .

There's quite a bit more meat to an adventure where you've got a say in what happens rather than an adventure where everything's mostly decided by the developers.

Besides, there are quite a lot of cinematics in BG3. You can still have the cinematic, adventure experience you desire... it's just that you control how it goes about.

If you want CRPG then go play CRPG, people who enjoy JRPG are looking for different type of expriance than games like BG3.

We don’t need every game play like each other, variety is good for industry.

It's also very good to take cues from games that were wildly successful and influential. I think the gaming industry would be in a much worse place if people decided to ignore the innovations to 3D camera and control Nintendo made with Mario 64 and OOT because "variety is good for the industry"

 

[Danjin44]

It's also very good to take cues from games that were wildly successful and influential. I think the gaming industry would be in a much worse place if people decided to ignore the innovations to 3D camera and control Nintendo made with Mario 64 and OOT because "variety is good for the industry"

If you enjoy BG3 great for you but I’m not fan of those type of games and I don’t want my JRPG play anything like those games.

I get it you guys loved BG3 but please stop with hyperbole crap and thinking every players want game like that. We went through same crap when Witcher 3 first came out and people thought all games should play like Witcher 3……No! You don’t like how JRPGs plays then go play WRPG or CRPG.

 

[Vox Machina]

We'll never see a JRPG as good as Grandia II again

 

[GetInTheRobot]

JRPGs in general always been pretty janky and restrictive as far as RPGs go, but the niche market is big enough to keep the genre afloat without much innovation.

 

[Zheph]

You guys really going wild at the minute, yes BG3 is awesome but not all games need to take clues or whatever else from it
JRPG is a different genre

 

[Urban]

*anime grunt*

 

[Lethal01]

And CRPGs have much to learn from JRPGS.

One example of a JRPG that kinda pisses me off with the lack of choice is Persona 5.

I like the game a lot, especially the characters and story. but it SUCKSS that most choices don't really impact the story or the direction you're going. So many choices in cutscenes are incredibly biased and are really just there for flavor text. Or how you can't set your own plan to steal someone's heart after setting the capture card, and you have to follow the specific script. It's cool, but they could've done a lot more with that.

It's fine to want those things but it isn't really any better than what we got. The game just isn't trying to be the experience you want it too.

 

[64bitmodels]

But I'm sure the must be other JPRGs that DO try to present a story driven by player choice, and they could probably learn a lot from a game like BG3.

that's what i mean.

But I also think that there are some story focused RPGs that have stories that could've been heavily expanded on with choices. Many JRPGs have amazing worldbuilding and great writing- imagine how much better games like FF7 and Xenoblade could explore its concepts and ideals when you can forge your own path and see how everyone in the game reacts to your actions. Choosing to not detonate the Mako Reactor 1 bomb on a second playthrough for an example, could've avoided the whole Sector 7 situation and even saved Biggs, Wedge and Jessie. Stuff like that.

I do feel like there are games closed ended enough to the point where an open ended story may not affect the game as much, (the little i've played of Vagrant Story, for example) but for grandiose adventures like JRPGs with big stories and all that I just think it's a great way to expand on the universe.

 

[Drizzlehell]

Considering that these two genres are very different from each other, I don't think there's any point in comparing the two. Maybe I haven't played too many JRPGs but I always viewed them as more constricted, linear, and driven by a plot with a pre-established hero. It's usually less about the freedom of choice, customisation and micromanagement, but more about experiencing an adventure through a fictional character's perspective.

I find both FF16 and BG3 enjoyable but I wouldn't even consider them to be in the same category of games, so I don't think there's any need to pit them against each other like that.

 

[Denton]

It is strange to me that most japanese RPG devs do not seem to like putting player agency/branching/nonlinearity into their games. Where does this aversion come from?

I mean, to me it is a common sense that videogame (especially RPG one) - the one medium that is interactive and can allow player to influence events - should provide these things.

Hell, you can have your prewritten hero with background and journey, and STILL provide ton of player agency, as Witcher trilogy, or Planescape Torment, or, indeed, Baldur's Gate 3 clearly show.

 

[GHound]

I'm waiting for the spinoff topic "Baldur's Gate 3 proves that boomer shooters have a lot to learn from CRPGs."

 

[drganon]

 

[vaibhavpisal]

I don't play that many JRPGs due to pacing issues.

I am fine with most of the stuff they bring to the table.

Quirky characters, creative storylines etc.

But I struggle to finish them. Which means they lack engagement. They need to work on basic stuff.

 

[Setsuna Mudou]

It is strange to me that most japanese RPG devs do not seem to like putting player agency/branching/nonlinearity into their games. Where does this aversion come from?

I mean, to me it is a common sense that videogame (especially RPG one) - the one medium that is interactive and can allow player to influence events - should provide these things.

Hell, you can have your prewritten hero with background and journey, and STILL provide ton of player agency, as Witcher trilogy, or Planescape Torment, or, indeed, Baldur's Gate 3 clearly show.

Because it's much harder to do. Instead of building one story, you have to take into account multiple decisions and how they would impact events further down the line.
Perhaps in a few years if AI gets robust enough we could have something more reactive to player choice, right now everything has to be scripted, which is why BG3 is quite impressive.

 

[Vox Machina]

I'm waiting for the spinoff topic "Baldur's Gate 3 proves that boomer shooters have a lot to learn from CRPGs."

I tried to 4 shot this dude in Halo just now but he got a Wisdom SAVE and made a big-brain play and turned it around on me.

 

[cireza]

But instead we'll probably mostly get shovelware like Avowed

How about waiting for the game to be released first ?

About OP, the fact that you enjoy something doesn't mean that everything has to become this exact thing. Enjoy your CRPG and let others play their JRPG.

Also I can at least name one JRPG that had major choices : Phantasy Star 3. And while most of the JRPG do not have story choices, they still offer a lot of choices.

 

[Whitecrow]

So things you dont like should be more like the things you like?
Who are you again?

 

[EviLore]

How about waiting for the game to be released first ?

Currently looks like a f2p mobile game made by slave labor in Southeast Asia, but open to new information as it presents itself!

 

[March Climber]

Huh ? JRPGs never about the choice , its about the adventure/Journey .

If this were true I wouldn't need a guide to 100% Persona games.

 

[Fabieter]

this is all JRPGs. not just FF16. I am saying that even if Square were releasing Sakaguchi tier FF games in 2023 it wouldn't hold a candle to what Baldur's Gate is doing. The genre needs to evolve

Nothing western rpgs are doing is holding a candle against baldurs gate 3.

What's more interesting is that jrpgs would get flak for being as as baldurs gate 3.

 

[Pejo]

Hopefully this is where AI will be utilized in gaming. Imagine having ChatGPT tier conversations with NPCs in RPGs. Where what they say is checked against a lore database and is actually truthful and useful within the world. Where every NPC has their own attitude and demeanor etc - some will not like you and start a fight right away, some will need to be boozed up to loosen their lips a bit first etc. We have a long way to go to hit that kind of utility with AI, but I am excited for it.

Regarding OP, Choices are nice but I still like linear adventures with mostly well written character focused stories. Something we haven't gotten a lot of in JRPGS as of late. I also wouldn't even consider FFXVI a JRPG, but I'm not gonna expand on that because I get out of hand discussing that game. Choices are only interesting when they matter in the frame of the story. If it's something like the ME3 endings, I honestly don't care if the game has it or not.

 

[NahaNago]

JRPGs aren't about choices. It is just an adventure game that you can level up in with a set story for you to go through. It is more about like someone else said the journey and enjoying the interactions with the party members. In essence western rpg is create your own story and jrpg is typically read the already created story.

What jrpgs can learn from western rpgs is creating detailed worlds/cities/towns.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

If this were true I wouldn't need a guide to 100% Persona games.

100% is not about the choice either, the main plot is easy. The 100% is about finishing everything else. But the main plot does not change.

 

[LazyParrot]

Nah, I'm good. Let them do their thing. I can appreciate both, and I generally alternate between them. When I'm done with a WRPG I usually feel like playing a JRPG (and vice versa), and the more focused story structure has a lot to do with that. It's like watching a movie or reading a book, but with gameplay, which isn't a bad thing at all.

It's no wonder CRPGs and WRPGs have blown up ever since after Skyrim, people want more choice and RPG mechanics in their RPG games.

But isn't Skyrim is a prime example of a game with a story that the player has zero influence over? The main story is entirely linear. Your only real choice lies in ignoring it.

I think it wouldn't be wrong to say Bethesda games in general have achieved massive success only after moving away from the things you want JRPGs to adopt. They're basically open world action games with light RPG elements these days.

 

[PonyStation4]

If you enjoy BG3 great for you but I’m not fan of those type of games and I don’t want my JRPG play anything like those games.

I get it you guys loved BG3 but please stop with hyperbole crap and thinking every players want game like that. We went through same crap when Witcher 3 first came out and people thought all games should play like Witcher 3……No! You don’t like how JRPGs plays then go play WRPG or CRPG.

What in particular pushes you away from BG3, but you still play JRPG's?