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[Wildebeest]

Final Fantasy is an entrenched brand of games, and people who go back to it expect a fixed story with a lot of silly anime nonsense. That's what they want, If anything what publishers should learn from something like BG3 and FF16 is that most people are more flexible than you would expect when it comes to things like mechanics if they see the game world seeming to be crafted with some care and delivering something they are interested in. The FF16 dev saying that people would not buy FF16 if it was turn based is just wrong, like Larian would be wrong if they said nobody would buy Baldur's Gate 3 if it had some shitty real time MMO combat. Developers have more flexibility than it seems to make combat systems that are either true to the turn based legacy of the genre, custom-made for just that game, or totally missing in action. As long as the game world is well written and well realised. With that freedom comes responsibility, and I'm glad that Larian making something faithful to table-top gaming is a winning formula, as I think that adds something valuable which modern FF or Disco Elysium do not have. I also think that reactivity adds something really excellent to game worlds, but others think that just a ton of unreactive bombastic anime crap adds more.

 

[balls of snow]

Preach baby.

 

[The Cockatrice]

in my eyes jrpgs peaked with Persona 5. I havent played anything better than that but yes japanese devs need to evolve in certain aspects. On the other hand if you consider From games jrpgs, western games have a lot to learn from them in level design, and combat and world building but From Software games are the only exception.

 

[Slicker than your average]

After bg3 success I feel we will see alot of copy cat games chasing the trend.

Happens everytime a game breakout massively like this. If those games are great, I welcome them. Can't rely on fallout for RPG choice any more after the trash they was 4.

 

[ZehDon]

Rather than disparate genres homogenising, I'd prefer if JRPGs stayed JRPGs so the fans of JRPGs can continue enjoying their favourite genre. I'm loving Baldur's Gate 3, but the idea that every JRPG needs to start copying it is silly. When everyone takes a step in the same direction, abandoning their own unique visions, we end up with things like the Sony Game Formula; lots of studios all churning out their flavour of third person cinematic action-adventure games with open-world RPG elements and a strong focus on cutscenes. That's, frankly, boring. Gaming is bigger than that and should embrace that. JRPGs, CRPGs, WRPGs, Racing, TPS, FPS - they should all strive to be their own things, rather than chasing trends and copy/pasting the flavour of the month.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I'm fine with jrpgs being linear, its more or less what they are.

However, i do think jrpgs in general feel lacking in terms of interactions with the world, there's very few to discover and only a few people to talk to. I think it'd be perfectly fine for them to evolve in that particular area. Nier Automata did that very well.




Also, the combat in BG3 alongside its success shows a new FF Tactics could do perfectly fine if handled well.

 

[Dr.Morris79]

the suits think that dumbing down games for the broadest possible lowest common denominator audience is always the path to victory.

Which is why most of these suits shouldnt be anywhere near gaming at all. I know that once it gets to ridiculous levels of money being put on the line it can get a bit twitchy in regards to making it back, stupid decisions get made, but as with any product if you put in the effort and make a full product then that will endure for the longest of time..

Most of these suits want Mcdonalds quality of pap, and by the looks of it a fair few developers want to serve that up too. Baldurs 3 sure showed that lot up of what effort they're 'willing' to put in..

The lord of the rings, the Peter jackson film. I could watch that again and again.

Rings of Power, the TV show. I wouldnt line the cats tray with it

It's the same with gaming.

I'm half expecting developers of such winning games like Saints Row 2022 to start going on strike soon as they're not getting paid enough. Look at whats happend with the writers strike, they've pumped out utter, utter trash for years and now most of the industry is trashed and I.P's in tatters they want a pay rise.. for what? Things like She Hulk? Gtfo

Gaming isnt far off at all. The industry seems like it's filling up nicely with the same breed of wet wipes. A few more trash games and it might be high time for their strike.




...I've rambled havent I

 

[Silver Wattle]

I'm seeing a lot of small minded, defensive replies by jrpg fans here.
I'm more of a jrpg fan than crpg/wrpg, but I can see the potential in expanded player choices in jrpgs.

Allowing players to make the MC and story "theirs" would only expand the appeal of jrpgs rather than keeping them in their current limited form.

But the debate is kind of a moot point, since we all know jrpgs are heavily restricted by budget and that's why most of them stick to anime tropes and feel very samey.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Another point i could add is regarding the animation. One criticism i saw for FFXVI was that dialogue outside of story cutscenes all felt stiff, with characters just standing there moving their mouths, expressing minimal robotic movements. With such a large budget, why can't they give more life to their interactions?
This is something BG3 - and The Witcher 3 for that matter - do very well. Every character, no matter how small or unimportant, are still properly animated, even if not the highest quality still at least showing natural movements and proper expressions to accompany their dialogue lines.

Like here, just one small, completely missable interaction in the game:


Not ultra high quality, but still animated enough to give them character

Now compare with a side-dialogue in FFXVI

 

[Ginzeen]

Persona is the only jrpg series I like. The rest are meh. Western rpg are much better to me. Way More choice, better roleplay, less focus on action.

 

[squarealex]

J-RPG is just a unique genre, not a "Japanese C-RPG"

 

[Zheph]

Another point i could add is regarding the animation. One criticism i saw for FFXVI was that dialogue outside of story cutscenes all felt stiff, with characters just standing there moving their mouths, expressing minimal robotic movements. With such a large budget, why can't they give more life to their interactions?
This is something BG3 - and The Witcher 3 for that matter - do very well. Every character, no matter how small or unimportant, are still properly animated, even if not the highest quality still at least showing natural movements and proper expressions to accompany their dialogue lines.

Like here, just one small, completely missable interaction in the game:


Not ultra high quality, but still animated enough to give them character

Now compare with a side-dialogue in FFXVI

It's actually better in FFVIIR alto I do agree with you

 

[YeulEmeralda]

BG3 has a lot to learn about BG2. The spiritual successor was Pillars of Eternity but that sold like shit.

 

[ergem]

Huh ? JRPGs never about the choice , its about the adventure/Journey .

I agree.

With that said, I think open world would really do well with jrpg. Give us the sense of wandering that FF7-FF9 gave us. But keep the narrative and lore deep.

 

[X-Wing]

Baldur's Gate 3 is awesome as is Final Fantasy XVI.
Glad they are radically different from each other, diversity and choice between the genre RPG is welcome.
Also, an RPG is an RPG. Doesn't matter where it's made.

The ‘JRPG’ label has always been othering

The term’s historical baggage lives on today

www.polygon.com

 

[LazyParrot]

But the debate is kind of a moot point, since we all know jrpgs are heavily restricted by budget and that's why most of them stick to anime tropes and feel very samey.

Somehow I doubt it. Writing is probably the one aspect of game development that's least affected by budget constraints. No shortage of smaller productions out there with stellar writing.

I suspect that the real reason JRPGs feel so much like... well, JRPGs, is that - with a very small number of exceptions to whom the budget argument wouldn't apply anyway - they're still primarily made for the Japanese market, where those tropes are more accepted or even expected.

 

[FStubbs]

Somehow I doubt it. Writing is probably the one aspect of game development that's least affected by budget constraints. No shortage of smaller productions out there with stellar writing.

I suspect that the real reason JRPGs feel so much like... well, JRPGs, is that - with a very small number of exceptions to whom the budget argument wouldn't apply anyway - they're still primarily made for the Japanese market, where those tropes are more accepted or even expected.

Probably simply this. IIRC even Xenoblade sells better outside of Japan.

 

[yanhash]

 

[Denton]

There is a weird hypocritical argument some people are making that "it is fine if JRPGs and WRPGs are different, let them focus on their own things". But by that same token, it is perfectly, equally fine if some JRPG devs actually attempt to make player agency driven games, if they want to do that, because "JRPG" is not monolith and it could encapsulate more types of design than single rigid one.

I don't see a reason why there couldn't be RPGs made in Japan with those japanese sensibilities that also focus on nonlinearity and branching. I do not consider these things to be inherently "western" or whatever.

 

[CosmicComet]

I don't want my JRPGs to be anything like CRPGs.

One is for a tailored, fleshed out cinematic story and the other is a sandbox.

They are different sub-genres for a reason. Dumb thread.

If I had to choose one over the other I'd choose FF16 over BG3, I prefer that aesthetic and style anyway.

 

[LazyParrot]

There is a weird hypocritical argument some people are making that "it is fine if JRPGs and WRPGs are different, let them focus on their own things". But by that same token, it is perfectly, equally fine if some JRPG devs actually attempt to make player agency driven games, if they want to do that, because "JRPG" is not monolith and it could encapsulate more types of design than single rigid one.

I don't see the hypocrisy here. "It's fine if JRPGs and WRPGs are different" and "It's fine if some JRPG dev makes player-agency driven games" aren't mutually exclusive positions.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I don't want my JRPGs to be anything like CRPGs.

One is for a tailored, fleshed out cinematic story and the other is a sandbox.

CRPGs are very much story and character driven also. This one specially.




I think for sandbox you're thinking more in line of Bethesda games.

 

[FinalBossWithTheMostPower]

BG3 is the sum of many many great parts including dialog, freedom of choice, and scale, but if JRPGs, and specifically FF, take away one thing, it's this: learn the art of creating engaging side quest/content.

This isn't an attack on JRPGs as the same could be said of games in other genres. Looking at you, Zelda.

 

[SantaC]

One example of a JRPG that kinda pisses me off with the lack of choice is Persona 5.

I like the game a lot, especially the characters and story. but it SUCKSS that most choices don't really impact the story or the direction you're going. So many choices in cutscenes are incredibly biased and are really just there for flavor text. Or how you can't set your own plan to steal someone's heart after setting the capture card, and you have to follow the specific script. It's cool, but they could've done a lot more with that.

not sure what you are on here. If you dont make the right choices it will lock you out from 20% of the final game.

 

[CosmicComet]

CRPGs are very much story and character driven also. This one specially.




I think for sandbox you're thinking more in line of Bethesda games.

Nah, its definitely a sandbox.

Skyrim was not a true sandbox like say Divinity 2 was. It was open world yes but far less choice and freedom and permutations of differing occurrences from your choices.

And as much as I enjoyed Divinity 2, it was not strong in story and definitely not in cinematics.

I've not seen anything of Larian's newest game BG3 to show me much different, doesn't really matter if a legend like JK Simmons does voice work on it.

Nothing comes across remotely as epic as even a PS1 era final fantasy cutscene.

 

[Gaiff]

not sure what you are on here. If you dont make the right choices it will lock you out from 20% of the final game.

Yeah, Persona 5 is a strange pick since it has more player choices than most JRPGs.

 

[CosmicComet]

BG3 is the sum of many many great parts including dialog, freedom of choice, and scale, but if JRPGs, and specifically FF, take away one thing, it's this: learn the art of creating engaging side quest/content.

This isn't an attack on JRPGs as the same could be said of games in other genres. Looking at you, Zelda.

This I do agree with.

FF16 could have been so much better with sidequests.

Really no FF has truly great sidequests in my opinion.

 

[Denton]

I don't see the hypocrisy here. "It's fine if JRPGs and WRPGs are different" and "It's fine if some JRPG dev makes player-agency driven games" aren't mutually exclusive positions.

Some people are acting like JRPGs must stay exactly what they are and always be linear.

I don't want my JRPGs to be anything like CRPGs.

One is for a tailored, fleshed out cinematic story and the other is a sandbox.

That's a complete misunderstanding of what CRPGs (or WRPGs) are. Witcher 3 is not "cinematic" or "fleshed out" ? It is, and it still offers plenty of player agency, decision making and choices with consequences.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Nah, its definitely a sandbox.

Skyrim was not a true sandbox like say Divinity 2 was. It was open world yes but far less choice and freedom and permutations of differing occurrences from your choices.

And as much as I enjoyed Divinity 2, it was not strong in story and definitely not in cinematics.

I've not seen anything of Larian's newest game BG3 to show me much different, doesn't really matter if a legend like JK Simmons does voice work on it.

Nothing comes across remotely as epic as even a PS1 era final fantasy cutscene.

Well, even if you consider that sandbox, it doesn't take away from the fact story is still a very strong element in the game, that includes epic cinematics

 

[Doom85]

Some of the JRPG fans need to calm down and think about this more reasonably. JRPGs, and other Japanese games, have been inspired by western RPGs before. The first Final Fantasy was inspired by Dungeons and Dragons and Wizardry. Zelda developers have flat out cited series like Elder Scrolls giving them inspiration and ideas. This isn’t new territory.

I don’t think most people are saying Final Fantasy, Tales, Persona, Dragon Quest, etc. need to play EXACTLY like Baldur’s Gate 3. Rather, take influence from what will work within each series. More expanded side quests with different outcomes based on your choices, more freedom in exploration, more innovative ways to tackle puzzles, etc.

Hell, here’s a question: why are some JRPG fans here okay with Final Fantasy XVI being mostly a character action game and barely a RPG, but taking stuff from BG3, a RPG, is out of line? What sense does that make?

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Some of the JRPG fans need to calm down and think about this more reasonably. JRPGs, and other Japanese games, have been inspired by western RPGs before. The first Final Fantasy was inspired by Dungeons and Dragons and Wizardry. Zelda developers have flat out cited series like Elder Scrolls giving them inspiration and ideas. This isn’t new territory.

I don’t think most people are saying Final Fantasy, Tales, Persona, Dragon Quest, etc. need to play EXACTLY like Baldur’s Gate 3. Rather, take influence from what will work within each series. More expanded side quests with different outcomes based on your choices, more freedom in exploration, more innovative ways to tackle puzzles, etc.

Hell, here’s a question: why are some JRPG fans here okay with Final Fantasy XVI being mostly a character action game and barely a RPG, but taking stuff from BG3, a RPG, is out of line? What sense does that make?

JRPGs needs a hell lot of evolution.

When your fanbase would rather play gatcha games on mobile than the masterpiece that you create, it's high time you take a hint and go back to drawing board.

 

[Buggy Loop]

CRPG is... Computer role playing game?

Over the years it redefined as classic RPG.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Some of the JRPG fans need to calm down and think about this more reasonably. JRPGs, and other Japanese games, have been inspired by western RPGs before. The first Final Fantasy was inspired by Dungeons and Dragons and Wizardry. Zelda developers have flat out cited series like Elder Scrolls giving them inspiration and ideas. This isn’t new territory.

I don’t think most people are saying Final Fantasy, Tales, Persona, Dragon Quest, etc. need to play EXACTLY like Baldur’s Gate 3. Rather, take influence from what will work within each series. More expanded side quests with different outcomes based on your choices, more freedom in exploration, more innovative ways to tackle puzzles, etc.

Hell, here’s a question: why are some JRPG fans here okay with Final Fantasy XVI being mostly a character action game and barely a RPG, but taking stuff from BG3, a RPG, is out of line? What sense does that make?

Yup

Imagine if jRPGs had the side quests even remotely as interesting as BG3, WHO wouldn’t want that? You want to hunt 10 rabbits around camp and gather 5 gem stones? Modern JRPGs side quests are brain dead. They’re time wasters with mmo side quests,

BG3 even the most mundane fight seems to have an impact on the world, on the story.

 

[wvnative]

I don't want all that in my jrpgs. I prefer them for that very reason.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

The entire premiss of the thread is wrong. Choose your own adventure books is not better or worse than a fixed story novel.

Japan tend to write RPGs to have a fixed player character. Which explains why so few allow you to customize the protagonist at all. That is simply how the story was written. This is still true in FF16 where the entire ending was scripted. That isn't bad, as long as the script itself is interesting and you don't hate the protagonist's guts for being annoying. In the West being the hero means getting to make decisions. In Japan being the hero means living the life of a hero who's path was already written. And there are merits for both.

Interesting that Elden Ring obviously did allow you to make some major changes. So if Japan wants to they can give the player some agency. But in the end one is not superior to another.

 

[Interfectum]

because the suits think that dumbing down games for the broadest possible lowest common denominator audience is always the path to victory.

This and a lot of game devs today actively hate their core audience and it shows through the game. Similar to what’s going on at Disney with Star Wars and Marvel. BG3 is a breath of fresh air because the devs embrace and cater to the core.

 

[SantaC]

Yeah, Persona 5 is a strange pick since it has more player choices than most JRPGs.

yeah that gotta one of the worst examples ever.

 

[simpatico]

If JRPGs did that they would be WRPGs

 

[LazyParrot]

Some people are acting like JRPGs must stay exactly what they are and always be linear.

Don't see how that's any worse than the OP stating that BG3 is somehow proof that JRPGs absolutely must change. That whole perspective is especially baffling if you consider that one of the reasons BG3's success is so special is that Larian didn't achieve it by copying other, more successful games. They largely stuck to the conventions of an ancient genre that AAA publishers and developers had essentially given up on and turned it into a mainstream success.

I see no reason why some Japanese developer couldn't make the same thing happen with a traditional JRPG.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I haven't seen a JRPG that's actually an RPG yet.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I haven't seen a JRPG that's actually an RPG yet.

Xenoblade Chronicles X perhaps?

 

[Buggy Loop]

I mean, they can continue to remain as is to satisfy the dozen of weebs wanking to 99 year old dragons in 12 years old bodies and then wonder why sales are dwindling…

They’re in the fuck around and find out phase, they’ll inevitably have to change something, there’s not enough Danjin44 around to sustain that market

 

[lughnasadh123]

Personally I do having a fast, frenetic action system AND an in depth turn-based one. There shouldn't only be one option but whichever suits that games needs.

This whole conversation around "X game is doing really well, all games need to be more like this" is fucking tiresome at this point.

 

[Dream-Knife]

this is all JRPGs. not just FF16. I am saying that even if Square were releasing Sakaguchi tier FF games in 2023 it wouldn't hold a candle to what Baldur's Gate is doing. The genre needs to evolve

Persona and SMT games have plenty of choice.

Just because Square hasn't made a good game in two decades doesn't mean all of Japan can't.

 

[Dynasty8]

For context, Final Fantasy has been my favorite gaming franchise for the last 30 years. Here's what I truly think...

FFXV and FFXVI were made by people who think they know what gamers want. It's as if the suits are the main ones making the final decisions. For both games, it was such an extremely shallow and dumbed down experience that I have just given up on Square Enix, their games just no longer appeal to me.

Larian on the other hand is made up of passionate gamers who really enjoy the hobby. They are the ones making all the decisions and are not held back by corporate delusion that affects the craft of game design. BG3 is an extremely passionate and deep experience and Larian has earned themselves a true fan.

 

[KXVXII9X]

I really do like the adventure and story part of JRPGs but I did wish some offered more choice. Western RPG's and JRPGs have their Pros and Cons. Too much choice with very little character development isn't too my liking. I think Baldur's Gate 3 so far offers a lot of choice while also having lots of character interactions. It is more how they are executed for me.

 

[diffusionx]

This is recency bias, due to the overall disappointment of FFXVI as a RPG. But look at Persona 5 which is if anything as much of a blow-up hit as Baldur's Gate 3. Same massive expansion in audience, same high metacritic, etc.

 

[Chastten]

Yeah, I prefer they don't.

The reasons I play JRPG's are different than the reasons I'd play something like Baldur's Gate.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Don't see how that's any worse than the OP stating that BG3 is somehow proof that JRPGs absolutely must change. That whole perspective is especially baffling if you consider that one of the reasons BG3's success is so special is that Larian didn't achieve it by copying other, more successful games. They largely stuck to the conventions of an ancient genre that AAA publishers and developers had essentially given up on and turned it into a mainstream success.

I see no reason why some Japanese developer couldn't make the same thing happen with a traditional JRPG.

Larian did add to it, mainly in the form of presentation. CRPGs until now never really cared about looking cinematic, and whenever a rpg made it to mainstream it would be fairly dumbed down in terms of mechanics and even story branches. What they're showing here is that to get mainstream attention, presentation really is the key element, you don't need to make the game any less complex or dumb it down.

What series like FF could learn is that they don't need to make their games action based nor chase some vague idea of "mature GoT-like narrative" in order to increase their audience. Rather just expand on estabilished concepts of the genre. Give more depth to the party members, both in story and gameplay, make the world more interesting, make interactions with that world feel more interesting, improve on the already estabilished combat system, etc.

 

[CosmicComet]

That's a complete misunderstanding of what CRPGs (or WRPGs) are. Witcher 3 is not "cinematic" or "fleshed out" ? It is, and it still offers plenty of player agency, decision making and choices with consequences.

I don't consider The Witcher 3 a CRPG at all.

It's just an open world WRPG that provides plenty of cinematic flare and character moments precisely because it has a set main character and certain freedoms taken away from you to keep its main linear narrative in tact.

It has much better side quests than any FF of course, and that's part of the greater sense of agency it provides, but likewise I also wouldn't say the narrative and cinematics are anywhere near the visual scale and grandiosity of most FFs either.

It's combat is also quite middling.