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[64bitmodels]

Hopefully this is where AI will be utilized in gaming.

Exactly one of the things i was thinking of. AI would make stuff like this much easier to implement in games, when it gets good.

 

[64bitmodels]

since we all know jrpgs are heavily restricted by budget

This is also why i specifically cited Square as they are THE JRPG company with the biggest budget out of all of them. FFXVI would not have the production values it does if it were made by anyone else.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Baldur's Gate 3 has everything a RPG should have. And FFXVI lacks all of it in favor of being a spectacle fighter game.

BG3 is one quality product whereas FFXVI from where I'm standing is the epitome of hot garbage.

-------------------

Would prefer Square made games with a AA budget instead of AAA budget. Or at least focused on engaging gameplay and decent writers that can tell a good story. Quality games over quantity of money.

 

[AmuroChan]

I like the variety. I don’t want every game to offer the same mechanics.

For me, the player choices that JRPGs offer is not in the story, but in things like combat and party construction. For example, I just finished Trails into Reverie. That game has 50 playable characters. At any one time I can only have 4 characters in combat. So there’s immense freedom in who I select to be in my party and how I arrange their equipment/quartz setup. That’s what I like about JRPGs. I don’t need a choose your own adventure story in my JRPGs. Western RPGs have that very well covered. I like playing different types od games. It would be incredibly boring if every game feels the same. If there are 10 games every year that’s just like BG, then BG3 wouldn’t be as special.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Would prefer Square made games with a AA budget instead of AAA budget. Or at least focused on engaging gameplay and decent writers that can tell a good story. Quality games over quantity of money.

Agree actually. Their AA lineup is way better than any FF entry.

 

[64bitmodels]

They’re in the fuck around and find out phase, they’ll inevitably have to change something, there’s not enough [IMG alt="Danjin44"]https://www.neogaf.com/data/avatars/s/655/655970.jpg?1691440514[/IMG] Danjin44 around to sustain that market

Don't insult my man Danjin, we may disagree on stuff but he isn't some weirdo.

So there’s immense freedom in who I select to be in my party and how I arrange their equipment/quartz setup. That’s what I like about JRPGs.

That's a thing available in BG3 as well..... You're not sacrificing combat complexity for the sake of story complexity. You simply get both.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

JRPGs and CRPGs are 2 different genres. JRPGs have never really been about role playing or player choice. They’re mostly linear adventures with predefined story and characters. Adopting CRPG mechanics wouldn’t be “fixing” JRPGs, it would be turning them into something else.

That’s like saying Motley Crue showed punk rock music that they need to add more power ballads and guitar solos.


Nobody plays games like Xenoblade or Final Fantasy hoping that they’ll have a million options how to solve every quest + have full control over the protagonist’s personality, actions, and dialog.

 

[SF Kosmo]

CRPGs exist in this sort of parallel dimension of the RPG concept from JRPGs, and to understand why you needs understand where these concepts split from each other.

The genre name of RPG is borrowed from tabletop RPGs, and for western RPGs and cRPGs especially, D&D has been this perpetual, aspirational north star for developers.

But JRPGs weren't so much influenced by D&D, they were influenced by early western attempts, especially Wizardry and Ultima, and the earliest Japanese attempts to emulate these like Dragon Quest or The Black Onyx. And so for Japanese RPGs, the question isn't so much how to we continually strive closer to this impossible-to-perfect ideal of a true D&D video game, but rather "How do we build on and evolve the concepts of these early RPGs." So it's using these crude, early attempts to make a D&D RPG as a foundation, without the sort of "platonic ideal" to strive for.

 

[poodaddy]

FFXVI is arguably more of a character action game with a lot of filler than a proper JRPG. Its problems are less of a problem with JRPGs than a bunch of specific bad design decisions. Looking at more typical genre fare, FF7R was great and I'm looking forward to Rebirth. I'll set aside FromSoft since they're the enlightened god-kings of gaming and don't need to improve on what they're doing, essentially creating their own subgenre with hundreds of pretenders. I don't want FromSoft games to be more like BG3. Beyond that, everyone's been encouraging me to try the Trails series recently too and that seems like a JRPG series playing to the genre's strengths.

It's a big industry, there's room for many different flavors. BG3 does show just how incredible a CRPG can be with ambition, care, talent, and sufficient resources. It's a crowning achievement of the genre and I can only hope that other CRPG devs shed their tears and get over the pity party, then attempt new ambitious titles in the genre. But instead we'll probably mostly get shovelware like Avowed, because the suits think that dumbing down games for the broadest possible lowest common denominator audience is always the path to victory.

While I didn't hate FF7 Remake, (I thought the writing was fairly bad, not awful, just not great), the combat was definitely fun. I agree with there being lots of room for different styles and genres, and the last thing thing this industry needs is any more homogenizing, as there are already far too many Ubisoft style experiences so I'd hate to see that mindset extrapolated towards making RPG experiences somewhat ubiquitous as well.

I don't agree that Avowed is automatically shovelware though, as we simply don't know enough about the game yet to make that call in my opinion. It might just not preview well, but who knows, could be good. Might just be another RPG with good gameplay and bad writing, not unlike FF7 Remake.

 

[Life]

Most JRPGs are still in the same game-loop from 30 years ago. I don't blame the Japanese devs though, cos people still keep rating their games highly and buying them.

 

[Belthazar]

It's a different design philosophy, not inherently good or bad. Linear narratives have one very important strength, though: the ability to create iconic and memorable scenes/story beats.

Like, imagine if FF VII were a game with the narrative freedom of BG3... Aerith's death wouldn't be anything other than a possibility that would've been seen by a tiny fraction of the player base. It would go from the most iconic moment in the franchise to... Nothing.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

There is a weird hypocritical argument some people are making that "it is fine if JRPGs and WRPGs are different, let them focus on their own things". But by that same token, it is perfectly, equally fine if some JRPG devs actually attempt to make player agency driven games, if they want to do that, because "JRPG" is not monolith and it could encapsulate more types of design than single rigid one.

I don't see a reason why there couldn't be RPGs made in Japan with those japanese sensibilities that also focus on nonlinearity and branching. I do not consider these things to be inherently "western" or whatever.

I agree, and by that same token of sharing, WRPGs could learn some things from traditional JRPGs, like better looking female characters, more colorful everything, less "I am the chosen special person that died, but is reborn" generic stories, generic classes like orc, elf, wizard, for instance.

 

[Fbh]

Nah I'd prefer for them to stay unique and different from each other.
I enjoy the freedom and flexibility of CRPG's but I also really like the more linear approach of JRPG's.

I think the lesson games like FFXVI need to learn from the success of the likes of Baldur's Gate 3, Elden Ring and even Breath of the Wild isn't specific game mechanics or ways to do things, but simply to be more confident in the audience.
IMO most of the issues with FFXVI come down to the fact that they seemed very worried about ensuring even a 3 years old can play the game, it's as if they were afraid that making the quests, level design or combat even slightly more complex would alienate most of the audience. The game is already super easy and simple and yet they are very active in reminding you there's options to make everything even simpler/easier, meanwhile there's literally no ways to increase the challenge until you beat the game.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I agree, and by that same token of sharing, WRPGs could learn some things from traditional JRPGs, like better looking female characters, more colorful everything, less "I am the chosen special person that died, but is reborn" generic stories, generic classes like orc, elf, wizard, for instance.

Those are actually aspects i appreciatte in BG3 over other WRPGs too. Women don't necessarely look like ogres, and the scenarios aren't all grim dark stuff.

The Premise of the narrative is also fairly simple and relateable, you have a weird worm in your brain and you don't want to die/turn into a monster, with many others like you.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

Those are actually aspects i appreciatte in BG3 over other WRPGs too. Women don't necessarely look like ogres, and the scenarios aren't all grim dark stuff.

The Premise of the narrative is also fairly simple and relateable, you have a weird worm in your brain and you don't want to die/turn into a monster, with many others like you.

Elf ears are one thing, but I ain't ever going for a girl with any kind of horns.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Elf ears are one thing, but I ain't ever going for a girl with any kind of horns.

Horns? You mean handles

 

[64bitmodels]

Horns? You mean handles

the better "love handles"

 

[Raven117]

I don’t know man, seems like jrpgs devs are making the games they want to make.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

There is a weird hypocritical argument some people are making that "it is fine if JRPGs and WRPGs are different, let them focus on their own things". But by that same token, it is perfectly, equally fine if some JRPG devs actually attempt to make player agency driven games, if they want to do that, because "JRPG" is not monolith and it could encapsulate more types of design than single rigid one.

I don't see a reason why there couldn't be RPGs made in Japan with those japanese sensibilities that also focus on nonlinearity and branching. I do not consider these things to be inherently "western" or whatever.

I think it would be totally cool to see a JRPG try to incorporate lots of freedom and player choice if that’s what the designers want to do.

What I disagree with is the implication that JRPGs and CRPGs are trying to achieve the same thing + that CRPGs are just better at it.

They’re different genres that serve different niches. Might as well say that Final Fantasy shows CRPGs that they need to make protagonists like Cloud, Tidus, and Lightning.

 

[rofif]

Is the game really 100 hours?
If so, that's way too long. There must be a ton of bloat/boring content in ther.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Is the game really 100 hours?
If so, that's way too long. There must be a ton of bloat/boring content in ther.

Thats the thing. There isn't. Not a single bit.

You can talk with a random cow in a settlement as a animal-turned druid and suddenly you're having a philosophical discussion with it.

 

[Tg89]

Nah, disagree tbh. I love BG3 but that doesn't mean JRPGs need to be more like it.

If anything it's the opposite, too many genres are becoming homogenized as it is. There's far too many games out there that have started implementing too many RPG mechanics as it is. Look at the bloat of unnecessary choices/skill trees in something like GoW:R compared to 2018 for example. Or what's happened to all these garbage Ubisoft open world games.

Genres having their own identities is fine. JRPGs have never been about choice (most of them, at least - obviously there's things like Persona that don't quite fit that mold), don't need to start now.

 

[Rat Rage]

Congratulations OP, your take is confusing and doesn't make sense.

This quote sums it up perfectly:

Baldur's Gate 3 is how JRPGs should evolve, adding more choice and player expression rather than more flashy action oriented combat. Looking at you FFXVI

JRPGs and CRPGs are a different genre. Neither have to be like each other. It's like saying a steak should taste like a chicken breast and vice versa. Also, Final Fantasy 16 is not a JRPG, therefore it's not true that JRPGs are focusing on adding "... more flashy oriented combat" - because only 3rd person character action games are doing that.

So I really don't know what you are talking about...

 

[rofif]

Thats the thing. There isn't. Not a single bit.

You can talk with a random cow in a settlement as a animal-turned druid and suddenly you're having a philosophical discussion with it.

I mean, I have not played it obviously, so I can't comment.
But from what I've seen you spend a fair amount of time dice rolling and in the inventory... but that probably doesn't count as bloat.

But beside that - how can a story be engaging past 30-50 hours? No matter what game I play, with the best story ever, it never holds my attention for this long.
Elden Ring is different because that's 70+ hours of pure gameplay.
Baldurs Gate 3 is a story game. How can a story be 100 hours long and still be coherent ?

 

[Tg89]

I mean, I have not played it obviously, so I can't comment.
But from what I've seen you spend a fair amount of time dice rolling and in the inventory... but that probably doesn't count as bloat.

But beside that - how can a story be engaging past 30-50 hours? No matter what game I play, with the best story ever, it never holds my attention for this long.
Elden Ring is different because that's 70+ hours of pure gameplay.
Baldurs Gate 3 is a story game. How can a story be 100 hours long and still be coherent ?

Keep in mind a lot of the time from BG3 is spent in fairly length combat scenarios, exploring, sidequests, etc. There's a ton of engaging and well made dialogue that certainly isn't bloat but there's also not going to be 100 hours of "story" in a single playthrough (for most people, maybe completionists)., Anecdotally, a LOT of the play time (especially on your first run) will also be attributed to replaying certain sections (especially some of the bigger fights where shit can go wrong quick).

I'm about 60 hours in and just finished act 2. My Steam playtime is about 10-15 hours more than my actual in game save as a result of replaying certain sections (not a knock, btw, that's CRPGs for you).

 

[rofif]

Keep in mind a lot of the time from BG3 is spent in fairly length combat scenarios, exploring, sidequests, etc. There's a ton of engaging and well made dialogue that certainly isn't bloat but there's also not going to be 100 hours of "story" in a single playthrough (for most people, maybe completionists)., Anecdotally, a LOT of the play time (especially on your first run) will also be attributed to replaying certain sections (especially some of the bigger fights where shit can go wrong quick).

I'm about 60 hours in and just finished act 2. My Steam playtime is about 10-15 hours more than my actual in game save as a result of replaying certain sections (not a knock, btw, that's CRPGs for you).

And if I am not side quests completionist - how long it will be ?

 

[Fuz]

Elf ears are one thing, but I ain't ever going for a girl with any kind of horns.

She horny af toh

 

[64bitmodels]

JRPGs and CRPGs are a different genre. Neither have to be like each other.

It's also very good to take cues from games that were wildly successful and influential. I think the gaming industry would be in a much worse place if people decided to ignore the innovations to 3D camera and control Nintendo made with Mario 64 and OOT because "variety is good for the industry"

 

[anab0lic36]

Triangle strategy and Tactics ogre both have choice, consequence and branching storylines that emerge from those decisions. I'd also argue (and win the argument) that both have vastly superior combat systems.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I mean, I have not played it obviously, so I can't comment.
But from what I've seen you spend a fair amount of time dice rolling and in the inventory... but that probably doesn't count as bloat.

But beside that - how can a story be engaging past 30-50 hours? No matter what game I play, with the best story ever, it never holds my attention for this long.
Elden Ring is different because that's 70+ hours of pure gameplay.
Baldurs Gate 3 is a story game. How can a story be 100 hours long and still be coherent ?

Dice rolling is just a few seconds, far from taking up too much time. But as the other guy said its not 100% story, there's also plenty of exploration and combat, or just reloading a save for experimentation.

 

[64bitmodels]

Triangle strategy and Tactics ogre both have choice, consequence and branching storylines that emerge from those decisions.

Haven't played either but Triangle Strategy's been in my wishlist for a long while now. If true though, we could do with more games like that

 

[Tg89]

And if I am not side quests completionist - how long it will be ?

Hard to say since I'm not done. It's also a game that can vary quite a bit based on the choices you make (which can add or take away significant time from the critical path). I'd say if you were to absolutely mainline the game, you could probably do it in 50-60? You'd probably run into some challenges on the combat side of things as a result of being lower levelled, levels are more significant in this game than more traditional WRPGs.

 

[AmuroChan]

That's a thing available in BG3 as well..... You're not sacrificing combat complexity for the sake of story complexity. You simply get both.

Right, and sometimes I don't want both. The Trails series has a continuous storyline for 10+ games now. I want that amazing world building and carefully crafted storyline. Choose your own adventure would not have worked in this series.

 

[Punished Miku]

One good WRPG and we see 2007 era headlines again.

 

[Mikado]

WRPGs' penchant for explicit sex scenes combined with JRPGs' aesthetic sensibilities is a Cultural Exchange I wholly support.

 

[Shifty1897]

For every Baldur's Gate 3, a Persona 5 exists. Both genres are doing great, thanks.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Fair enough. One thing WRPG’s can learn from JRPG’s is gameplay, combat and polish though. Not saying all WRPG’s play lackluster or anything, but imho JRPG’s almost always have the better gameplay and combat which goes a long way with me.

Also, I feel that JRPG’s and WRPG’s attempt to accomplish different things. WRPG’s are usually about choice, size and freedom while JRPG’s usually focus more on the story, adventure and characters from my experience.

 

[cartman414]

6 and 12 emulated WRPGs in different ways (open-endedness and combat macros, respectively), and got mixed feedback both times. I respected both for the record.

 

[Saber]

You're basically using BG3 sucess to hate JRPGs, while taking the opportunity to sneak push Skyrim. BG3 deserves all the praise, but this is some stupid and dumb hyperbole.

 

[Northeastmonk]

What’s going to be better than Chrono Trigger? Nothing. That’s why. What I know is that I love going back to JRPG’s. Xenogears, Suikoden, and etc. You need to break it down better because I will not say there’s a better RPG for me that isn’t Japanese if I have a chance to relate a game from a certain time period. That’s ridiculous. I will say the modern JRPG’s aren’t that alluring except that we get Remakes/Remasters. Beyond Remakes/Remasters, yes, the genre needs some work. I wouldn’t say it was outdone over night. The battle systems from classic JRPG’s is still unique and fun. People throw this “genre needs to evolve”, but that also kills the enjoyment of JRPG’s to an extent. People act like everyone loves the rules of D&D all of a sudden.

BG3 is probably amazing, yes, but I haven’t even had the credits roll. Will people be playing it in a year or ten years? When I need a fix for RPG that isn’t an amazing A-JRPG, I’ll load up one of many very good JRPGs.

 

[JimboJones]

One good WRPG and we see 2007 era headlines again.

Yeah JRPG's have been pretty healthy for a while this is more a return to form for WRPG's.

 

[RaduN]

Another point i could add is regarding the animation. One criticism i saw for FFXVI was that dialogue outside of story cutscenes all felt stiff, with characters just standing there moving their mouths, expressing minimal robotic movements. With such a large budget, why can't they give more life to their interactions?
This is something BG3 - and The Witcher 3 for that matter - do very well. Every character, no matter how small or unimportant, are still properly animated, even if not the highest quality still at least showing natural movements and proper expressions to accompany their dialogue lines.

Like here, just one small, completely missable interaction in the game:


Not ultra high quality, but still animated enough to give them character

Now compare with a side-dialogue in FFXVI

FFXII had better non-main story cutscenes.

 

[Guilty_AI]

FFXII had better non-main story cutscenes.

Many older jp games did. Original yakuza games had side-quest cutscenes with the same quality as main story ones, unlike the ones you see in modern yakuzas, even the remakes.

There's something they can return to form to.

 

[Midnight Bliss]

The last good jrpg was final fantasy brave exvius on mobile phones meow meow meow meow meow meow meow

 

[Shouta]

Beyond that, everyone's been encouraging me to try the Trails series recently too and that seems like a JRPG series playing to the genre's strengths.

If you ever get around to starting these, take it slow. It definitely plays to the genre's strengths and taking your time to soak it in in is mostly a good thing. It also helps prevent burnout because, honestly, there's a good chance that might happen if you ever get to the Cold Steel games. Those take a big dip in overall quality. They're still good games but the difference is pretty stark.

 

[EviLore]

If you ever get around to starting these, take it slow. It definitely plays to the genre's strengths and taking your time to soak it in in is mostly a good thing. It also helps prevent burnout because, honestly, there's a good chance that might happen if you ever get to the Cold Steel games. Those take a big dip in overall quality. They're still good games but the difference is pretty stark.

Will do. I don’t have 1000 gaming hours available for a huge binge regardless!

 

[Balducci30]

Look I get the love for what BG3 is doing. But that’s essentially the whole point of the game - it’s a D&D simulator. Not every game needs to be like this, not every RPG needs to be like this…

 

[Perrott]

JRPGs should learn how to not be:

• Redundant
• Repetitive
• Boring
• Grindy

 

[EDMIX]

Will do. I don’t have 1000 gaming hours available for a huge binge regardless!

Truth. Its about the quality of those hours. I have to really give a fuck now days to 100% a game.

I feel only games I love doing all the side quest on are Bethesda's RPGs like Elder Scrolls, Fallout and likely Starfield. Everyone else.....not likely lol.

If I jump into the Trails series, I'm once overing all of em and ignoring all side quest lol

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

I think it would be totally cool to see a JRPG try to incorporate lots of freedom and player choice if that’s what the designers want to do.

What I disagree with is the implication that JRPGs and CRPGs are trying to achieve the same thing + that CRPGs are just better at it.

They’re different genres that serve different niches. Might as well say that Final Fantasy shows CRPGs that they need to make protagonists like Cloud, Tidus, and Lightning.

Interesting that Mass Effect is an example where it tries to be a Western RPG but ended up with a Japanese RPG narrative ending with the third installment. And it explains the dissatisfaction. What fans wanted in the first game gets betrayed in the third. With only one real ending. If you never got to make a choice and Sheppard being independent from the player, there would not be as much backlash that the game made the choices for you.