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[Zaptruder]

Had to reply to this, only because I think you might be in the extreme minority on that. I think most identify strongly with their gender attributes (big reason for this thread). Losing one breasts or penis would be devastating for people, and are decisions that should not be taken lightly. Adapting is not an easy thing

I don't think there are any that would voluntarily lose their breasts or penis, unless they had severe gender identification issues.

But it's different from saying that people wouldn't be able to adapt to the loss of such things.

To put the idea in another way - if we could enter a VR simulation where we could perfectly simulate what it was like to be of the opposite gender - a lot of men would do so (even if it meant be locked into these VR bodies in the lifecycle or span of the game or simulation), and certainly a fair number of women would try out playing guys too.

Of course, we already have primitive VR environments in the form of World of Warcraft and Second Life, and we have players playing opposite genders consistently - to an extent, these preferences underscore a little about how people would like to be viewed by others given a choice.

I understand that's not exactly scientific research - the main point I'm trying to make is that gender issues are complex - and run the gamut of highly adaptable to completely inalienable in many broad areas.

If the options were available to switch genders easily at no significant costs and no significant side effects, with 100% reversability (e.g. you're zapped by a gender changing beam, and it's done) - it would probably become an almost fashionable thing to do; to try out. And would you be surprised if a significant percentage of people might want to stay the other gender?

 

[Dead Man]

I don't think there are any that would voluntarily lose their breasts or penis, unless they had severe gender identification issues.

But it's different from saying that people wouldn't be able to adapt to the loss of such things.

To put the idea in another way - if we could enter a VR simulation where we could perfectly simulate what it was like to be of the opposite gender - a lot of men would do so (even if it meant be locked into these VR bodies in the lifecycle or span of the game or simulation), and certainly a fair number of women would try out playing guys too.

Of course, we already have primitive VR environments in the form of World of Warcraft and Second Life, and we have players playing opposite genders consistently - to an extent, these preferences underscore a little about how people would like to be viewed by others given a choice.

I understand that's not exactly scientific research - the main point I'm trying to make is that gender issues are complex - and run the gamut of highly adaptable to completely inalienable in many broad areas.

If the options were available to switch genders easily at no significant costs and no significant side effects, with 100% reversability (e.g. you're zapped by a gender changing beam, and it's done) - it would probably become an almost fashionable thing to do; to try out. And would you be surprised if a significant percentage of people might want to stay the other gender?

If I could keep my penis and beard, I would try being a girl for a bit, sure. But if there was some accident where I was permanently changed into someone who was treated as a girl and expected to conform to those norms I would lose my mind.

 

[Zaptruder]

If I could keep my penis and beard, I would try being a girl for a bit, sure. But if there was some accident where I was permanently changed into someone who was treated as a girl and expected to conform to those norms I would lose my mind.

Do you think you'd 'lose your mind' more in that case, or in the case where you became a quadraplegic?

 

[Dead Man]

Do you think you'd 'lose your mind' more in that case, or in the case where you became a quadraplegic?

Shit, that's hard. Quadriplegia takes away your ability to do so much, much being expected to be a woman would be daily mental torment. If I had to choose, I would probably say quadriplegia is worse, just because it is a mechanical failure of the body that stops you being able to do so much. At least I could be a tomboy I guess.

I think I would lose my mind more in the case of being considered a woman, but I would for sure be much angrier about being quadriplegic.

I agree it is a complex subject and different people will be more adaptable to certain situations. I was not trying to diminish that, just putting my thoughts on the scenario out there.

 

[Zaptruder]

Shit, that's hard. Quadriplegia takes away your ability to do so much, much being expected to be a woman would be daily mental torment. If I had to choose, I would probably say quadriplegia is worse, just because it is a mechanical failure of the body that stops you being able to do so much. At least I could be a tomboy I guess.

I think I would lose my mind more in the case of being considered a woman, but I would for sure be much angrier about being quadriplegic.

I agree it is a complex subject and different people will be more adaptable to certain situations. I was not trying to diminish that, just putting my thoughts on the scenario out there.

It is... my general thought on the complexity is - don't be too rigid in boxing people in, but also respect their rights to differences (especially differences that don't harm others - beyond the 'harm' of disgust that they may feel at been a difference that is counter to what is 'natural').

And just in case you missed it - I asked the question about paraplegia - because it's proven and shown in studies that people that undergo such a dramatic negative change eventually do come to adapt - their baseline of happiness returns to roughly where it was before the change (but wouldn't be above their previous baseline without some other form of change - like meditation say).

Because that's just how the human brain works at a very fundamental level - changes create a signal in the brain, but no-changes don't - and signals return to a baseline level.

 

[Smellycat]

I read the thread back when it had the original title, but I wanted to withhold my opinion. I had no idea that 57 souls were claimed by this topic until now

I think what the parents are doing is very irresponsible. They shouldn't be delaying their kid's puberty. The kid was born with a penis. I would have raised him as a boy from the get go and never deviated from that. The problem might be a chemical imbalance in the brain, which is causing confusion to the poor kid.

I pray to God that I never have to deal with this problem when I have kids. It is really difficult to know what the right answer is.

 

[Perspicacity]

I read the thread back when it had the original title, but I wanted to withhold my opinion. I had no idea that 57 souls were claimed by this topic until now

I think what the parents are doing is very irresponsible. They shouldn't be delaying their kid's puberty. The kid was born with a penis. I would have raised him as a boy from the get go and never deviated from that. The problem might be a chemical imbalance in the brain, which is causing confusion to the poor kid.

I pray to God that I never have to deal with this problem when I have kids. It is really difficult to know what the right answer is.

If the child does proceed with the gender reassignment then the long term effects of not delaying the onset of puberty are worse than if they hadn't.

What does "raise him as a boy" mean? There are girls that are into racecars and contact sports, just like there are boys that are into fashion and popstars. The parents never "raised" their child to be one thing or another, it's just who she is.

 

[lexi]

I read the thread back when it had the original title, but I wanted to withhold my opinion. I had no idea that 57 souls were claimed by this topic until now

I think what the parents are doing is very irresponsible. They shouldn't be delaying their kid's puberty. The kid was born with a penis. I would have raised him as a boy from the get go and never deviated from that. The problem might be a chemical imbalance in the brain, which is causing confusion to the poor kid.

I pray to God that I never have to deal with this problem when I have kids. It is really difficult to know what the right answer is.

Yes, the parents are irresponsible. The litany of doctors, psychologists and therapists have nothing to do with this.

 

[Gaborn]

Yes, the parents are irresponsible. The litany of doctors, psychologists and therapists have nothing to do with this.

indeed! This seems to be the central point that people who criticize the parents are completely missing. They somehow think their intuition about the issue is more valid than the medical opinion of a variety of doctors and therapists that have evaluated the child over the years.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

So is delaying puberty not that big of a medical "threat" then? Maybe I'm reading more into it then there is but it seems like the doctors in the OP make it sound like there are serious problems from delaying puberty. Is it really that bad or is it overblown? Seems like a crappy situation all around. If delaying puberty can be dangerous that's obviously not good but the kid is obviously having problems understanding themselves and especially if he was threatening what he was then it certainly isn't good to allow that to continue either. I feel bad for the kid.

 

[Gaborn]

So is delaying puberty not that big of a medical "threat" then? Maybe I'm reading more into it then there is but it seems like the doctors in the OP make it sound like there are serious problems from delaying puberty. Is it really that bad or is it overblown? Seems like a crappy situation all around. If delaying puberty can be dangerous that's obviously not good but the kid is obviously having problems understanding themselves and especially if he was threatening what he was then it certainly isn't good to allow that to continue either. I feel bad for the kid.

It's not only not a medical threat, it's the course that was recommended by the Endocrine society 3 years ago!

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

It's not only not a medical threat, it's the course that was recommended by the Endocrine society 3 years ago!

Then why do the doctors in the OP make it sound like after this the kid has a 50/50 shot of even living?

 

[Gaborn]

Then why do the doctors in the OP make it sound like after this the kid has a 50/50 shot of even living?

Because they don't like transgender people?

For example, they extensively quote Dr. Paul McHugh. What they DON't tell you is... well, read it yourself.

 

[scar tissue]

Came into this thread Ready to Rage, but after reading the Story, im okay with this
More Time for the poor Kid to decide
Fucking lol'd at the bans, what happened?

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Because they don't like transgender people?

For example, they extensively quote Dr. Paul McHugh. What they DON't tell you is... well, read it yourself.

I only read the first paragraph and I get the feeling I know where it's going. :/

I have a question if anyone knows since I honestly have no clue about it. If his puberty is delayed he will still be a boy but he will develop less "manly" features like boys usually do during puberty? Does this mean his height or other traits would be altered from what they would be normally or if in a couple years he actually would like to stay male would he develop normally from that point or would it always be less because he started later?

Came into this thread Ready to Rage, but after reading the Story, im okay with this
More Time for the poor Kid to decide
Fucking lol'd at the bans, what happened?

From the ones I noticed it mostly seemed like people not reading the OP and just deciding to be hateful.

 

[Platy]

Came into this thread Ready to Rage, but after reading the Story, im okay with this
More Time for the poor Kid to decide
Fucking lol'd at the bans, what happened?

Some people didn't read the story

 

[Gvaz]

I read the thread back when it had the original title, but I wanted to withhold my opinion. I had no idea that 57 souls were claimed by this topic until now

I think what the parents are doing is very irresponsible. They shouldn't be delaying their kid's puberty. The kid was born with a penis. I would have raised him as a boy from the get go and never deviated from that. The problem might be a chemical imbalance in the brain, which is causing confusion to the poor kid.

I pray to God that I never have to deal with this problem when I have kids. It is really difficult to know what the right answer is.

The right answer isn't the bolded. Penis != gender

 

[Emerson]

Man I can't believe what happened in this thread. Did everybody get perm'd or what?

 

[Gaborn]

Man I can't believe what happened in this thread. Did everybody get perm'd or what?

I don't like the vague and rumorlike nature of InfiniteNine's post, so I'll just verify this: yes, the ban is permanent for HeadlessRoland.

Please remain on topic. If you have any further questions regarding the bans, please feel free to contact me or another moderator via PM. If you just want to know how long someone is banned for, however, we're not likely to give out an exhaustive list and I'd appreciate it if those sorts of questions didn't become common; moderation is not open to the peanut gallery. Roland is a special case here.

Now, again, stay on topic, please.

There has been discussion., and we are not banning everyone who disagrees with the parents. We tend to ban people for, among other things 1) not reading the OP, which is explicitly against the ToS, and 2) engaging in hysterical, deliberately divisive behavior or language.

Many people stating that this is child abuse without any supporting data or rational argumentation to support that point of view demonstrated clearly that they had not read the OP -- just as you apparently did not listen when I asked you to contact me via PM if you have further questions.

It is often not the essential message which is at fault, but the manner and place it is presented.

I think these two posts answer your questions.

 

[Trojita]

Looks like I'm the first one back. Worst part about being banned, besides of course losing the ability to post, is losing all of your subscriptions.

Also don't google the kids name unless you want to see blog and "news" posts that make the ignorant assholes on neogaf look like enlightened scholars.

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2011/10/19/347913/fox-news-doctor-same-sex-parents-of-transgender-youth-need-psychological-evaluations/

Fox News continued its efforts to demonize transgender people yesterday with a segment about 11-year-old Tammy Lobel, whose parents are allowing her to use hormone blockers to delay the onset of puberty under the care of a doctor. This will give her time to mature and reach a decision about her gender identity before male puberty makes irreversible changes to her body. The segment featured Fox News Medical A-Team “expert” Dr. Keith Ablow, who refuses to affirm transgender identities, calling them “psychotic delusions,“ “toxic” and “disordered,” and comparable to anorexia and heroin addiction. Everyone in the segment referred to Tammy as a boy and host Martha MacCallum described the parents (who happen to be a lesbian couple) as “irresponsible.” Ablow tried to couch his comments as not being stigmatizing, but then proceeded to call for a psych evaluation for both parents and child:

ABLOW: Here’s what I think. First of all, I think we should remind ourselves from the outset: we’re not looking to bully anyone. I’m reminded of the words of Abraham Lincoln, “With malice toward none.” But now is the time, Martha, when we have to understand this issue, what’s happening here. We have two women raising a child — he’s adopted — and he’s come to believe that he, too, is female. That argues for a complete psychological evaluation, not just of the boy, but of his parents as well, to see whether psychological forces are at play here to make him say such things.

The guy on fox news is just terrible.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/18/fox-news-psychiatrist-wants-obama-investigation-of-transgender-therapy/

Fox News medical “expert” Dr. Keith Ablow is so concerned about transgender people that he is calling on President Barack Obama to investigate gender reassignment therapy.

Ablow used his Fox News online column last month to recommend that parents boycott ABC’s Dancing with the Stars over the inclusion of Chaz Bono, a transgender man.

“Open up the DSM-IV diagnostic manual on psychiatry, take the heroin dependent people, put them on TV with their drug paraphernalia and speak about how happy they are,” he told Fox News host Bill O’Reilly.

Ablow resigned from the American Psychriatic Association in September after the organization called his remarks about transgender people “opinions, scare tactics and inflammatory language.”

The psychiatrist was on Fox News again Tuesday blaming a lesbian couple after their son self-identified as a girl.

“We’re not looking to bully anyone,” Ablow told Fox News anchor Martha MacCallum. “I’m reminded of the words of Abraham Lincoln: ‘With malice toward none.’ But now is the time, Martha, when we have to understand this issue. What’s happening here? We have two women raising a child. He’s adopted, and he’s come to believe he, too, is female. That argues for a complete psychological evaluation, not just of the boy, but of his parents as well.”

“Is this any form of irresponsible — at the very least — parenting that could be legislated in any way?” MacCallum asked.

“It’s very tough to reverse course [during sex reassignment therapy],” the Fox News “Medical A-Team” member noted. “There are people that undergo these transformations that may regret it later… I think it’s time for the President’s Commission on Bioethical [Issues] — just as with stem cells — to get involved here, summon the best minds from around the world to look at this issue because the theory that people are born into the wrong bodies needs to be looked at s

Yeah, there is no question that this guy hates transgendered people.

 

[Fusebox]

I love how both articles have the word "expert" in quotes for sarcasm.

 

[Gvaz]

Fox News continued its efforts to demonize transgender people yesterday with a segment about 11-year-old Tammy Lobel, whose parents are allowing her to use hormone blockers to delay the onset of puberty under the care of a doctor. This will give her time to mature and reach a decision about her gender identity before male puberty makes irreversible changes to her body. The segment featured Fox News Medical A-Team “expert” Dr. Keith Ablow, who refuses to affirm transgender identities, calling them “psychotic delusions,“ “toxic” and “disordered,” and comparable to anorexia and heroin addiction. Everyone in the segment referred to Tammy as a boy and host Martha MacCallum described the parents (who happen to be a lesbian couple) as “irresponsible.” Ablow tried to couch his comments as not being stigmatizing, but then proceeded to call for a psych evaluation for both parents and child:

ABLOW: Here’s what I think. First of all, I think we should remind ourselves from the outset: we’re not looking to bully anyone. I’m reminded of the words of Abraham Lincoln, “With malice toward none.” But now is the time, Martha, when we have to understand this issue, what’s happening here. We have two women raising a child — he’s adopted — and he’s come to believe that he, too, is female. That argues for a complete psychological evaluation, not just of the boy, but of his parents as well, to see whether psychological forces are at play here to make him say such things.

 

[mblitek]

Shit, that's hard. Quadriplegia takes away your ability to do so much, much being expected to be a woman would be daily mental torment. If I had to choose, I would probably say quadriplegia is worse, just because it is a mechanical failure of the body that stops you being able to do so much. At least I could be a tomboy I guess.

I think I would lose my mind more in the case of being considered a woman, but I would for sure be much angrier about being quadriplegic.

I agree it is a complex subject and different people will be more adaptable to certain situations. I was not trying to diminish that, just putting my thoughts on the scenario out there.

You rang? Quadriplegic here. Ask away! I was injured when I was 18 :|

 

[Gvaz]

You rang? Quadriplegic here. Ask away! I was injured when I was 18 :|

What do you use to type?

 

[The Technomancer]

(now often allied with gay liberation movements)

Does anyone call them this? Last I checked gay people weren't imprisoned.

 

[Brian Griffin]

Fox News medical “expert” Dr. Keith Ablow is so concerned about transgender people that he is calling on President Barack Obama to investigate gender reassignment therapy.

Ablow used his Fox News online column last month to recommend that parents boycott ABC’s Dancing with the Stars over the inclusion of Chaz Bono, a transgender man.

Oh yeah, I'm sure this ass is really concerned about trans people. It's like religious homophobes saying "We don't hate gay people, we love them. We love them so much we don't want them to be gay anymore."

The fact that this guy and others like him could stand in front of the millions of transgender people who have had their lives greatly improved by transitioning and say "Sorry but you're wrong, your lives aren't actually better, you're just crazy" shows a level of audacity that I can't even comprehend. He could probably tell a mathematician that 1+1=pizza with a straight face too.

 

[mblitek]

What do you use to type?

I use an onscreen keyboard with word prediction for typing in forums or surfing the web etc. If it's going to be lengthy I use voice dictation. Dragon Naturally Speaking has improved substantially since my injury seven years ago.

Oh, to click I have an infra red switch mounted on the side of my glasses (I don't wear glasses, they're just frames.) So when I twitch my cheek slightly it detects the change and registers a click. Then on top of my monitor I have a small credit card sized, web cam looking infra red camera that tracks a small silver dot on my glasses. The silver dot is like the reflective material found on shoes, clothes etc.

 

[Patriots7]

So is delaying puberty not that big of a medical "threat" then? Maybe I'm reading more into it then there is but it seems like the doctors in the OP make it sound like there are serious problems from delaying puberty. Is it really that bad or is it overblown? Seems like a crappy situation all around. If delaying puberty can be dangerous that's obviously not good but the kid is obviously having problems understanding themselves and especially if he was threatening what he was then it certainly isn't good to allow that to continue either. I feel bad for the kid.

I don't think anybody at the moment knows what kind of effects this could have, but I find it hard to believe that this won't lead to unknown consequences.

My parents always told me that you never argue with a child, because they are not rational. More parents should take this kind of stance.

 

[Brian Griffin]

I use an onscreen keyboard with word prediction for typing in forums or surfing the web etc. If it's going to be lengthy I use voice dictation. Dragon Naturally Speaking has improved substantially since my injury seven years ago.

Oh, to click I have an infra red switch mounted on the side of my glasses (I don't wear glasses, they're just frames.) So when I twitch my cheek slightly it detects the change and registers a click. Then on top of my monitor I have a small credit card sized, web cam looking infra red camera that tracks a small silver dot on my glasses. The silver dot is like the reflective material found on shoes, clothes etc.

Science! That's so awesome you have those tools available to you.

 

[Gaborn]

I don't think anybody at the moment knows what kind of effects this could have, but I find it hard to believe that this won't lead to unknown consequences.

My parents always told me that you never argue with a child, because they are not rational. More parents should take this kind of stance.

Just to be clear, are you suggesting you disagree with the Endocrine Society?

 

[mantidor]

I use an onscreen keyboard with word prediction for typing in forums or surfing the web etc. If it's going to be lengthy I use voice dictation. Dragon Naturally Speaking has improved substantially since my injury seven years ago.

Oh, to click I have an infra red switch mounted on the side of my glasses (I don't wear glasses, they're just frames.) So when I twitch my cheek slightly it detects the change and registers a click. Then on top of my monitor I have a small credit card sized, web cam looking infra red camera that tracks a small silver dot on my glasses. The silver dot is like the reflective material found on shoes, clothes etc.

Thats right from a scifi movie, so you look at what you want to click, move your face slightly and it registers the click? that's awesome!

Spoiler

well given the circumstances of course, I don`t mean to be insensitive...

 

[mblitek]

Thats right from a scifi movie, so you look at what you want to click, move your face slightly and it registers the click? that's awesome!

Spoiler

well given the circumstances of course, I don`t mean to be insensitive...

Not at all insensitive! But yes, it works pretty well and especially well when aiming in PC FPS games.

 

[Trojita]

Not at all insensitive! But yes, it works pretty well and especially well when aiming in PC FPS games.

Oh wow, that is cool.

 

[mollipen]

I think what the parents are doing is very irresponsible. They shouldn't be delaying their kid's puberty. The kid was born with a penis. I would have raised him as a boy from the get go and never deviated from that. The problem might be a chemical imbalance in the brain, which is causing confusion to the poor kid.

So, if your child says they're gay, do you tell them they can't be, because they were born a boy and boys are supposed to want to be with girls?

Life doesn't always work the way we expect it should. There's any number of variations that can occur that we aren't expecting, and maybe weren't wanting. Sex, gender, physical condition, mental capacity, looks, so many different variables that can be set in an endless combinations. As a (hopefully) intelligent society, we have to understand that we can't control that, no matter how much we'd like to.

If a child is born as one sex but they truly believe they're supposed to be the other gender, why torture them by forcing them to be something they not only don't want to be, but can't be. Having a penis doesn't make you feel or act like a man, and if that's not what you are, then all you can do is pretend to be so. Living every day as a lie, as if you're somebody you're not, really, really sucks. We don't have to do that in this day and age. Sure, it's weird for some people, unnatural for others, and overall it's kind of a scary process, but if we can give somebody the ability to finally be happy with who they are, in a way that isn't going to hurt anybody else, why shouldn't we do that?

If the child in this situation has an issue like a "chemical imbalance" that can be fixed, then absolutely—fix it. Transitioning is not an easy answer, and not one that should be used if a more sensible means of happiness can be achieved. But to talk about a "poor child" while also saying that you'd force them to be something that they're not is somewhat hypocritical. Maybe you don't want a child of yours to be in that situation—but that isn't your choice. Just like children don't get to pick their parents, parents don't get to pick their children. What you want doesn't matter anywhere near as much as what your child needs does, even if those needs end up being something you don't exactly understand or agree with.

It's kind of like that Steve Jobs quote that's been going around: "Your time is limited, so don’t waste it living someone else’s life."

 

[Dead Man]

You rang? Quadriplegic here. Ask away! I was injured when I was 18 :|

Having read the cool tech you have to help, I guess my only question to you (if you feel like answering) would be - What do you think would be more difficult? Quadriplegia or gender dysphoria to the point that you felt like man in a womans body or vice versa?

Other than that... you can play FPS's? That is awesome!

 

[mblitek]

Having read the cool tech you have to help, I guess my only question to you (if you feel like answering) would be - What do you think would be more difficult? Quadriplegia or gender dysphoria to the point that you felt like man in a womans body or vice versa?

Other than that... you can play FPS's? That is awesome!

Holy crap. That's a question. Uhm, well while you can SOMEWHAT imagine quadriplegia I don't think you can imagine the dysphoria as that is all in your brain. Having said that, if it's something like Chaz Bono where she truly feels happy now then I would say quadriplegia is harder. Every moment you fall out of a trance like playing a game or reading etc you're reminded that you can't do something. There are so many other difficulties that come along with quadriplegia as well. I should do one of those reddit things where people ask me questions.

 

[daw840]

Holy crap. That's a question. Uhm, well while you can SOMEWHAT imagine quadriplegia I don't think you can imagine the dysphoria as that is all in your brain. Having said that, if it's something like Chaz Bono where she truly feels happy now then I would say quadriplegia is harder. Every moment you fall out of a trance like playing a game or reading etc you're reminded that you can't do something. There are so many other difficulties that come along with quadriplegia as well. I should do one of those reddit things where people ask me questions.

You should do that reddit thing here on GAF. I bet it would be eye opening.

 

[Dead Man]

Holy crap. That's a question. Uhm, well while you can SOMEWHAT imagine quadriplegia I don't think you can imagine the dysphoria as that is all in your brain. Having said that, if it's something like Chaz Bono where she truly feels happy now then I would say quadriplegia is harder. Every moment you fall out of a trance like playing a game or reading etc you're reminded that you can't do something. There are so many other difficulties that come along with quadriplegia as well. I should do one of those reddit things where people ask me questions.

Sorry to put you on the spot, thanks for answering though. I think I see where you are coming from, there are treatment (not sure if that is the right term) options for trans people, imperfect though they are, but not really for quadriplegia.

You should do that reddit thing here on GAF. I bet it would be eye opening.

Yep.