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David Jaffe sucks at Metroid

ntropy

Member
when i'm stuck and re-enter the same area

 

tygertrip

Member
He is giving his opinion. You can agree and disagree with him but people calling stuff like handholding, and people comparing his complaint to souls game cryers are noobs who had problems defeating boss like Index gundyr for sure and are overcompensating their incompetence at video games, for them every game they like is flawless in design. I love Dark Souls, all three of them but even they have made horrible design choices at many places. He is simply saying this kind of inconsistency is unacceptable for a good-level design. And I partially agree with him.

Also, I will say gamers are not used to being handheld now, and you are not some elite. You are a pretentious buffoon. Infact presence of the internet has put you into this inaccurate line of thought that many people have high intuition. They dont, you don't, the inclusion of game help feature in PS5 UI is the proof of how most people nowadays play. If they face a hurdle they quickly google something about it. If there was no internet most people won't find out how to get on arch dragon peak because you won't know if it exists ffs. The difference is that when you play Dark Souls 'III' you know what kind of inconsistencies you are signing up for, with Metroid Dredd you don't.
The Metroid series has been around for 35 years, and it was always like this. It is much older than Dark Souls, LOL.
 

Dr Bass

Member
Yeah, I think I'm just going to go ahead and trust the guy who made a living designing AAA games over the opinions of people whose biggest contribution to games is just playing them. K thanx bye.
This is a logical fallacy known as "appeal to authority." Try something else. You have no idea what other people's experiences are on this board in terms of designing games/software/puzzles, or what their work experience/intelligence levels are.

Just argue your points in good faith. That's all that's required. That goes for anywhere on this board.
 

tygertrip

Member
The ones complaining also probably dont know about using bombs to reach higher points too which then reveal openings to roll through. Hidden walls have always been a thing with this series. As someone who's played them all, going into this i expected to have walls to shoot through at some point.
Heck, I would have been mad if it DIDN'T have hidden blocks! I was actually very disappointed with Fusion back when it came out, because it was so straight forward. Some people just can't accept that there are plenty of games for all tastes, and whine to high heaven if a game doesn't fit their taste. Sad.
 

tygertrip

Member
It's not a secret room. It's a main path (so they say).
I play games my whole live and I would not shoot that.
I don't get it why would I go around shooting walls ? There is another corridor on mini map. I assume there is entry from another room on the right later on
Clearly, you are very young.
 

tygertrip

Member
The ones defending this for the following reasons would fail a design class and be fired from a design job asap. Here's why:

#1- Saying 'this is metroid and it's how the series is' is a ridiculous statement. UNLESS the game makes it clear from the start there is a prerequesite to playing DREAD that you have to have played earlier games in the series, that excuse is hollow and embarrassing. A person's understanding of a game should not have to come from a previous game (esp. when the last meaningfully relevant one in the 2D series was Super Metroid in 94). And it should not have to come from a guide or the internet or twitter. If the game doesn't tell you how to play, it's the game's fault.

#2- Saying 'the game DOES tell you how to play in the tutorial' is also ridiculous. In the first 10 minutes of exposing the Player to exposing interactive blocks, you get:
a- blocks that LOOK literally like glowing blocks.
b- blocks that look like nothing, just the level.
c- blocks that look like weird bio/bloody/heart sections.

All 3 can be shot and destroyed. However the b type (that looks like just the level) is basically telling the Player 'we will give you ZERO visual cues for what can be damaged...just go into a room and shoot stuff and hope that helps if you are stuck.' This would be like there being NO CRACKS to cue you on bomb walls in Zelda and Players going 'you suck at Zelda cause you're SUPPOSED to enter every room and start throwing bombs randomly until something breaks open'.

ALSO, given there are multiple challenges in the game (exploration, genuine puzzles, combat, map reading,etc.) getting 'stuck' BECAUSE you are not shooting something is not clear. In a game with over 100 rooms to visit, how am I supposed to know WHICH room requires the 'blast everything' solve vs. 'Oh, the solve is in a room 10 rooms away where I need to hit a button or some such shit?'

#3- The 360 aim on the Joy Con controller is shit. I used it as rarely as possible. Not because I wasn't aware of it but because it's a fucking pain in the ass to press that little narrow slice of a button up top. People's answer: 'oh yeah- everyone knows you should play with a pro controller'. Really?!? Then ship the fucking game with a pro controller or at least let Players know that shit on the box/download. A lot of defense of this game is simply defending bad decisions from Nintendo because 'that's shit you should know if you were a REAL fan of Metroid!' Get the fuck out of here, you gatekeeping stooges. Please.

#4-Shooting the enemy crawling on the ceiling IS a great tell to help Players understand the section. However, the enemy ALSO- as part of its path- crawls on parts of the ceiling that are NOT breakable. I happened to kill it on one of those non break sections. And so he was GONE and thus that hint was no longer an option for me. I guess that's my problem too, right? I should have magically known there was a magical window in which to shoot the enemy so it would open up a section of the level and it's my fault- even tho the enemy that is designed as a tool tip GOES to places where the tool tip won't pop. Insane defense.

Look, you can love Metroid all you like. And you can love how arcane it can be. And you can even love- silly as I think it is- your being accepted in a little club that has a secret 'Only WE are the ones who really 'get' this game!' handshake. But what you can't do is try to prop up shit design and call it good. I mean you can TRY that, but those of us who actually know the craft and have worked in the craft of design- whatever you think of my various games- know a hell of a lot better and are very aware that you're full of shit.

I love you.

Don't do drugs.

Jaffe
That is one hell of a cope and seethe post, lol.
 

Jeeves

Member
That is one hell of a cope and seethe post, lol.
It's sad but clear as day what happened to him.

  1. To begin with, he was willfully not engaging with the game the way it's meant to be played by going out of his way to not utilizing 360 free aiming.
  2. He was embarrassed to for whatever reason get stuck in the game during a stream, probably doubly embarrassed that he got stuck on a part that no one else thought twice about.
  3. Once his ego got tangled up in it he had a rather extreme kneejerk reaction swearing on his pride as a former game maker that it was the game's fault and that the game and its designers suck.
  4. Predictably this made people tease him.
  5. He got more embarrassed and tried to double down, but because his position didn't have a good foundation to begin with, his arguments are shaky and he's forced to strawman the logical arguments presented to him, if not outright ignore them. Admittedly some of the arguments thrown his way were not good, such as "if you played other Metroid games you would know", but there was no shortage of arguments based in sound game design either.
  6. He steps away from the arguments and unfortunately does not take time to reflect, instead tripling down incoherently lashing out further on twitter at the expense of his dignity.

At this point his heels are probably dug in irreversibly.
 

baphomet

Member
There wasn't a single area in the game that had me have to stop and think for more than 10 minutes. They couldn't have made it easier to tell you where to go unless they had giant red arrows pointing at everything. If you think that's what games need then you're free to think that, but thank God not everything is press A to win these days. First run was like 7:30 or so. Couldn't have asked for a better designed game.
 

tygertrip

Member
I think Mr. Jaffe's reaction is a little bit overblown, but the snarky comments towards him are uncalled for. The man has done a lot for gaming and deserves respect for that. Also a friendly reminder that he is one of the few developers/ex - developers that still interacts so openly outside of just twitter.

As for this particular situation: I think there are several hints inside the room that you are to shoot the ceiling. The lay out of the room pushes you up in a natural way. There's an enemy on the ceiling which I think is not there to give it away, but to serve as a quick reminder that you can shoot upwards.

It shows the next room right above you. The fact that you can see that it's empty while the map shows an opening in the same room suggests that the opening is not an entrance, it's an exit and that the solution to getting in there is in the room you're currently in.

You could argue that it could still use more work to increase the clarity of it, but I think it's too far to call it bad design all together. I've seen far more grievous examples than this for sure. I think the frustration comes from the fact that "Where the fuck do I go next!?" Is one of the worst feelings in gaming if it overstays its welcome.
"Don't disrespect muh Jaffe!" LOL, I'm sure his skin is thick enough to not be bothered by hyperbolic forum drama.
 
I wonder how many of these types of gamers didn't see the second half of SOTN
This.

Also one of the friends of mine just killed the Richter way back in 1999 and returned SoTN to me with something like "I've have beaten your game that you are talking about so much". Still remember this feeling of someone being so stupid and confident in himself so much at the same time. Oh wait, maybe these things are connected :messenger_hushed:
 
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tygertrip

Member
Qte is crap but it was a different time and performing qte actions was exciting at the time. At least to kid me
Well, I was an adult, and I thought it sucked. But I don't have an issue with games that don't have it,different strokes for different folks.
 

tygertrip

Member
Yes, because not everyone has played and/or grew up playing Super Metroid; especially with how the industry has grown since the SNES days, you really think people of all walks of life are going to know that going into Metroid Dread? I think it's the game designer's job to take into account, not only old-school fans, but new ones as well; especially if we're talking about Metroid, a franchise that hasn't been getting Nintendo's attention nearly as much as Zelda/Mario.



Despite that, you still got people like Jaffe not knowing what to do. Maybe he didn't read the tutorial? In any case, a game can benefit from a better tutorial. For example, off the top of my head: Deus Ex: Human Revolution, a game from 10 years ago, gives you both text and video to explain to the player how to play:


Are you telling me Nintendo couldn't have made it more clear than just a text? C'mon man, no need for those ad-hominem attacks.



Well maybe Nintendo should assume that. Not everyone's going to fully grasp the mechanics in the first few hours and to make it obtuse for the players is just working against the game.
OMG, imagine arguing that reading text is too much to ask.
 

rofif

Member
So you weren't even alive when the original Metroid came out? You just proved my point! 😂😂😂
So fucking what ?! Do I need to be 42? What metric is the "correct" one to be able to have an opinion on this grandpa? Or is just everyone younger than you (supposedly) wrong ?
What kind of metric is that ?!
I was not alive when they filmed The Thing but it can be my fav movie.

What is this bs. Who are these people like you ?! I cannot comprehend your stupidity and disrespect. Go play your bs "hardcore" grandpa games
 
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Dr Bass

Member
I am 32... I play games since 1995...
Games did some stuff back then because of technology limits and no supervision or knowledge of good design.
Game does not have to be cryptic asshat in order to be difficult
No supervision?

Nintendo needs people telling them what to do now? :messenger_tongue:

And they didn't know what good design was, which led to them being the most beloved gaming company to ever exist in the history of the world? To the point where their main characters are as recognizable as Disney characters?

Because they don't know what a good game is?
 

rofif

Member
No supervision?

Nintendo needs people telling them what to do now? :messenger_tongue:

And they didn't know what good design was, which led to them being the most beloved gaming company to ever exist in the history of the world? To the point where their main characters are as recognizable as Disney characters?

Because they don't know what a good game is?
Everyone needs some sort of curator or a improving experience. There is a reason why items improve over time and designs change.
If nothing changed or was never improved you would not be able to write to me now on this forum.

Just because someone made a game, amazing for it's time, it does not mean it's design is timeless. Exact same reason why qte are trash now but many were drooling over fahrenheit.

Whatever you say, going back to the topic, I am still with jaffe on this. The example shown by him is just plain bad. Of course I would probably shoot at the ceiling but I can understand why some wouldn't. There is no crack, no sign, minimap has other entry... Game does not indicate you can do that with this block.
Played 1 Metroid game or all of them does not change this.
It's the same reason why doom 2 levels are hated mazes and key hunts. Because you can get stuck for a long time looking for keycard. It does not mean this is a good thing because a game is old and classic.

I don't see what that have to do with being a Metroid fan or experienced player. Is this game only for 50 year olds who played all these games? NO! It's a switch game for kids!!! Who have never played Metroid!
secrets or deep cuts in it, should be a content for old fans. Not main path
 

Neff

Member
It's the same reason why doom 2 levels are hated mazes and key hunts. Because you can get stuck for a long time looking for keycard. It does not mean this is a good thing because a game is old and classic.

Some people relish the spirit of adventure. Some people want a pre-packaged tourist ride with all the adventuring done for them.

Generally speaking, a classic game is a classic in the first place because it's good. But then of course one's definition of 'good' differs depending on your taste.
 

Dr Bass

Member
Everyone needs some sort of curator or a improving experience. There is a reason why items improve over time and designs change.
If nothing changed or was never improved you would not be able to write to me now on this forum.

Just because someone made a game, amazing for it's time, it does not mean it's design is timeless. Exact same reason why qte are trash now but many were drooling over fahrenheit.

Whatever you say, going back to the topic, I am still with jaffe on this. The example shown by him is just plain bad. Of course I would probably shoot at the ceiling but I can understand why some wouldn't. There is no crack, no sign, minimap has other entry... Game does not indicate you can do that with this block.
Played 1 Metroid game or all of them does not change this.
It's the same reason why doom 2 levels are hated mazes and key hunts. Because you can get stuck for a long time looking for keycard. It does not mean this is a good thing because a game is old and classic.

I don't see what that have to do with being a Metroid fan or experienced player. Is this game only for 50 year olds who played all these games? NO! It's a switch game for kids!!! Who have never played Metroid!
secrets or deep cuts in it, should be a content for old fans. Not main path
At the same time not everything DOES improve with time, and there ARE timeless designs. The idea that everything improves with time is objectively false.

It doesn't matter if you're "with" Jaffe on this, I think it's been shown to be completely untrue for many clearly stated reasons. You can keep digging in your heels, but the puzzles are solvable and logical. It's great design. Plenty of people who are playing this for the first time and didn't grow up with Metroid are getting through it perfectly. You're. just. wrong. You can not understand why 1 + 1 = 2, it doesn't mean it ain't a fact.
 

AREYOUOKAY?

Member


Here I fixed the bad game design. Everyone wins.
Are you trying to make things more confusing? Years ago we had players asking "Why can't Metroid crawl?" in Miiverse.
Well these days gamers are asking "What button makes Metroid shoot and where is Metroid supposed to shoot?"

So I've come up with an even better solution inspired by the classic God of War series that fixes both of those problems at the same time.


 

01011001

Member
I'm kinda glad he is not doing the new Twisted Metal you guys xD I bet the game would stop every 2 seconds to tell you to shoot at that car in front of you... how else would you know?
 
#1- Saying 'this is metroid and it's how the series is' is a ridiculous statement. UNLESS the game makes it clear from the start there is a prerequesite to playing DREAD that you have to have played earlier games in the series, that excuse is hollow and embarrassing. A person's understanding of a game should not have to come from a previous game (esp. when the last meaningfully relevant one in the 2D series was Super Metroid in 94). And it should not have to come from a guide or the internet or twitter. If the game doesn't tell you how to play, it's the game's fault.

Even if some people were making this argument, it's irrelevant because the game does begin with a tutorial which shows new people the ropes. I hadn't played a Metroid game in probably ten years and thought it did a good job of telling me everything. I know how the series has worked in the past re: breakable walls, so seeing the game actually point that out for the benefit of new players, as if to say "be on the lookout for this", was an admirable bone to throw.

I guess there is no point devoting more time to this part though, because you go on to say... drumroll...

#2- Saying 'the game DOES tell you how to play in the tutorial' is also ridiculous. In the first 10 minutes of exposing the Player to exposing interactive blocks, you get:
a- blocks that LOOK literally like glowing blocks.
b- blocks that look like nothing, just the level.
c- blocks that look like weird bio/bloody/heart sections.

All 3 can be shot and destroyed. However the b type (that looks like just the level) is basically telling the Player 'we will give you ZERO visual cues for what can be damaged...just go into a room and shoot stuff and hope that helps if you are stuck.' This would be like there being NO CRACKS to cue you on bomb walls in Zelda and Players going 'you suck at Zelda cause you're SUPPOSED to enter every room and start throwing bombs randomly until something breaks open'.

I think you are ignoring a couple of key things which are visually conveyed to the player during the first block shooting tutorial.



Even if a player was to shoot in all 180 degrees around them, they'd recognize that the actually destructible part was the roughly 1-2 meter thick piece of rock which had a suspiciously straight edged, blocky appearance, and some empty space on the other side.

From this point on in the game, the player gets gradually conditioned to think that every shootable block will have roughly those dimensions and appearance. In some of the EMMI chase areas for example, you sometimes have stretches of hallways with several of these block walls impeding you (like in the above screenshot), which you need to shoot through to escape. They pretty much always have the same thickness - they need to be, since when you shoot the outer rock, it reveals the 3D model of one of the 3 block types inside which you mentioned. It's not dissimilar from how the morph ball gaps always have the same thickness.

By a certain point in the game, the player really ought to have started to instinctively associate '1-2 meter thick blocks' with 'potential pathway' - much like 'cracks in the wall' in Zelda is associated with 'breakable wall'. It's the same design principle, but more subtle.

The context of the tutorial also conveys a lot of information to the player. They have literally run into a dead end here, and the game then says about that: "if you run into a dead end, try shooting at your surroundings". Again, I think it's a very obvious communication to the player that a 'dead end' will often be caused by a block wall.

And it's been pointed out that even the map is conveying something just beyond the wall (which is why it's almost comically timed how you say "There's no indication on the map!" in the stream). A roughly one block wide gap on the map, some exposed level on the other side, gee I wonder where that leads...

So from this tutorial, there's a mix of:

a) explicit knowledge being imparted to the player (via the text instructions, and the direct effect of shooting the block) and
b) implicit knowledge (how the map leading somewhere and the block shape relate to a dead end).

It is very suggestive that if you are ever stuck in the game, and you find a room that has a dead end.. with some map beyond it... and the wall that's forming the dead end meets the visual criteria of these blocks... you should maybe, just maybe try shooting that wall.

ALSO, given there are multiple challenges in the game (exploration, genuine puzzles, combat, map reading,etc.) getting 'stuck' BECAUSE you are not shooting something is not clear.

This is such a dishonest characterization of how the blocks fit into the gameplay loop. You seem to have painted this picture that any players NOT spam shooting everywhere will inevitably end up lost. It's almost like saying a soldier will only kill the correct target if he fires wildly at anyone he sees, until eventually he kills the right person. No, they try and spot the target (ie. the block wall and path beyond) first, then shoot at it. A player would only need to 'blast everything' if they were absolutely, well and truly stuck because of this, which i've suggested is unlikely because of the player's conditioning to look for and shoot blocks if they hit a dead end.

In a game with over 100 rooms to visit, how am I supposed to know WHICH room requires the 'blast everything' solve vs. 'Oh, the solve is in a room 10 rooms away where I need to hit a button or some such shit?'

Well, that's Metroidvania. And no, that isn't a "it's been this way for 35 years so that's why" defense, I mean it in a "that's one of the hallmark tropes of the genre" defense. Metroidvania will always have you juggling multiple things at once and probing the map for rooms which you can do something in. It's all about the exploration.

#3- The 360 aim on the Joy Con controller is shit. I used it as rarely as possible. Not because I wasn't aware of it but because it's a fucking pain in the ass to press that little narrow slice of a button up top. People's answer: 'oh yeah- everyone knows you should play with a pro controller'. Really?!? Then ship the fucking game with a pro controller or at least let Players know that shit on the box/download. A lot of defense of this game is simply defending bad decisions from Nintendo because 'that's shit you should know if you were a REAL fan of Metroid!' Get the fuck out of here, you gatekeeping stooges. Please.

It's really not that hard to hold the L trigger on the Joy Con bro. You can even just lightly press it from the side of the console unit. I guess it might be a complaint if you are holding each Joy Con loose in separate hands, but then every Switch ships with a free plastic frame you can attach the Joy Cons to.

#4-Shooting the enemy crawling on the ceiling IS a great tell to help Players understand the section. However, the enemy ALSO- as part of its path- crawls on parts of the ceiling that are NOT breakable. I happened to kill it on one of those non break sections. And so he was GONE and thus that hint was no longer an option for me. I guess that's my problem too, right? I should have magically known there was a magical window in which to shoot the enemy so it would open up a section of the level and it's my fault- even tho the enemy that is designed as a tool tip GOES to places where the tool tip won't pop. Insane defense.

Many people, including me, who are bringing up the enemy placement are not talking about the enemy in the corner you tried so valiantly to kill without aiming. You are thinking of the design like this:

The enemy crawls over the breakable surface and while shooting at it, you happen to take out the surface and can then proceed, like a happy little accident.

But what we are referring to is the enemies above the breakable surface.



As a designer, you may have heard of the term 'breadcrumbs' - little suggestions to the player that they might be able to reach somewhere. Like for example when you spot a treasure chest in a weird place in a platformer. There is an implication that you should be able to reach it somehow, so you then look within the immediate area for the path. This is the same principle, except in this case the way through is right in front of you.

(Now I guess it could make sense that the area above you is some later section of the game, which later links up with this room. But again, based on the conditioning the player has gotten that 1-2 meter wide blocks can sometimes be destroyed, and this does seem to be a dead end... it might be wise to try shooting it.)

The ones defending this for the following reasons would fail a design class and be fired from a design job asap. Here's why:

I decided to address this last. Full disclosure: I work in the industry too and have encountered this very annoying attitude dozens of times, usually from authoritarian lecturers who think they know better than everyone. I've seen many brilliant ideas get shot down because they didn't fit in with the prevailing idea of what 'good design' is, or went against the orthodoxy of a Game Developers Conference circlejerk.

As an example, you say "And it should not have to come from a guide or the internet or twitter. If the game doesn't tell you how to play, it's the game's fault." - yet that is exactly the school of thought behind why Dark Souls didn't tell its player much. You have communities spawned around it, wikis, discussions and online collaboration trying to figure it out - it got people talking, which is what the developer wanted. So what you may have ascribed to it as "lol shit design" wasn't actually shit at all, it fulfilled the designer's intent. And in case you didn't notice, Dark Souls' unorthodox design ended up being incredibly influential.

Design also follows trends over periods of time and what might be thought of as 'the right way to do things' can fall out of fashion in a matter of years. Some things can be designed in a way that seems odd, but with a method to the madness to elicit a certain response in the player. An example: why do I have to take my eyes off the screen in Zombi U on the Wii U to manage my inventory, surely that is 'bad design'? I mean I can't see the enemies attacking me now! Well, the purpose is to increase tension by doing that, so it's actually good design for a horror game. There are many such cases of things which would 'fail a design class', but are really brilliant.

I mean you could even apply your ridiculous civil rights comparison to this:

I could offer you examples of times in history when only a handful of people saw the writing on the wall and it took many years for others to see it (Civil Rights and Gay rights come to mind)

Look, you can love Metroid all you like. And you can love how arcane it can be. And you can even love- silly as I think it is- your being accepted in a little club that has a secret 'Only WE are the ones who really 'get' this game!' handshake. But what you can't do is try to prop up shit design and call it good. I mean you can TRY that, but those of us who actually know the craft and have worked in the craft of design- whatever you think of my various games- know a hell of a lot better and are very aware that you're full of shit.

I love you.

Don't do drugs.

Jaffe

Some of the worst arguing from your own self-inflated sense of authority that i've ever read.

Don't even get me started on the immense fucking irony of saying Metroid fans like to think 'Only WE are the ones who really 'get' this game', and then IMMEDIATELY go on to say that it's only YOU who 'know the craft and have worked in the craft of design..." and "know a hell of a lot better and are very aware that you're full of shit'. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black lmao. And I guess fuck all those designers at MercurySteam, amirite? This coming from David Jaffe, a guy who's not done anything of relevance in design for a decade and now spends his life streaming fatly on Youtube.

Frankly, putting aside any of your design opinions, you seem like a gigantic cunt and my earlier opinion that the industry is much better off without you has only grown tenfold. Peace out.
 
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Lethal01

Member
Okay. At that point there aren't many obvious places you can go. You're shut off from numerous points it's impossible to go back on due to your lack of abilities. The Metroidvania genre often does this when it wants you to figure out an ambiguous way forward, by eliminating the way back. The screen Jaffe got stuck on has an unexplored exit on the screen above, implying it might be productive to go upwards somehow. Fortunately for the player, it's simply a matter of shooting the scenery nearby for a clue, which the game tells you beforehand is a good idea.

It's not idiot-proof design, because idiots have gotten stuck on it, and many, many sections like it, long before this game released. It's indirect, but it's not unintuitive or arbitrary. In fact, it's fairly logical. It just requires some willingness to think and trust in the game's design, which is solid throughout.

It's likely that your post was meant to just back me up, but just in case you misinterpreted what I said, let me clarify here before I edit.

"How about we stop acting like everyone is just going "it's always been like this" and not giving tons of thought-out reasons why it's good design."
I'm pointing out that the people on here are giving tons of reasons why it's good design despite other acting like everyone is just saying that "it's always been like this"
 

ACESHIGH

Member
I agree with what jaffe says. His criticism is on point. Cant believe the level of gatekeeping on this thread. Hope you guys are not the ones that are against first cameras and tank controls in horror games I mean if you champion shooting at every single wall as the identity of a franchise...

Metroid dread seems to be a good game . I do not understand what's so special about it though... maybe the hide and seek w/instakill mechanic seen in games like outlast?
We had metroidvanias a dime a dozen since the 360 days with shadow complex. Specially on PC But for some reason this one is treated as the second coming. I am not seeing how this game brings anything new to the genre. It's very well put together if a bit safe. Like Mario games after Galaxy.
 

bender

Candy Corn Aficionado
The ones defending this for the following reasons would fail a design class and be fired from a design job asap. Here's why:

#1- Saying 'this is metroid and it's how the series is' is a ridiculous statement. UNLESS the game makes it clear from the start there is a prerequesite to playing DREAD that you have to have played earlier games in the series, that excuse is hollow and embarrassing. A person's understanding of a game should not have to come from a previous game (esp. when the last meaningfully relevant one in the 2D series was Super Metroid in 94). And it should not have to come from a guide or the internet or twitter. If the game doesn't tell you how to play, it's the game's fault.

#2- Saying 'the game DOES tell you how to play in the tutorial' is also ridiculous. In the first 10 minutes of exposing the Player to exposing interactive blocks, you get:
a- blocks that LOOK literally like glowing blocks.
b- blocks that look like nothing, just the level.
c- blocks that look like weird bio/bloody/heart sections.

All 3 can be shot and destroyed. However the b type (that looks like just the level) is basically telling the Player 'we will give you ZERO visual cues for what can be damaged...just go into a room and shoot stuff and hope that helps if you are stuck.' This would be like there being NO CRACKS to cue you on bomb walls in Zelda and Players going 'you suck at Zelda cause you're SUPPOSED to enter every room and start throwing bombs randomly until something breaks open'.

ALSO, given there are multiple challenges in the game (exploration, genuine puzzles, combat, map reading,etc.) getting 'stuck' BECAUSE you are not shooting something is not clear. In a game with over 100 rooms to visit, how am I supposed to know WHICH room requires the 'blast everything' solve vs. 'Oh, the solve is in a room 10 rooms away where I need to hit a button or some such shit?'

#3- The 360 aim on the Joy Con controller is shit. I used it as rarely as possible. Not because I wasn't aware of it but because it's a fucking pain in the ass to press that little narrow slice of a button up top. People's answer: 'oh yeah- everyone knows you should play with a pro controller'. Really?!? Then ship the fucking game with a pro controller or at least let Players know that shit on the box/download. A lot of defense of this game is simply defending bad decisions from Nintendo because 'that's shit you should know if you were a REAL fan of Metroid!' Get the fuck out of here, you gatekeeping stooges. Please.

#4-Shooting the enemy crawling on the ceiling IS a great tell to help Players understand the section. However, the enemy ALSO- as part of its path- crawls on parts of the ceiling that are NOT breakable. I happened to kill it on one of those non break sections. And so he was GONE and thus that hint was no longer an option for me. I guess that's my problem too, right? I should have magically known there was a magical window in which to shoot the enemy so it would open up a section of the level and it's my fault- even tho the enemy that is designed as a tool tip GOES to places where the tool tip won't pop. Insane defense.

Look, you can love Metroid all you like. And you can love how arcane it can be. And you can even love- silly as I think it is- your being accepted in a little club that has a secret 'Only WE are the ones who really 'get' this game!' handshake. But what you can't do is try to prop up shit design and call it good. I mean you can TRY that, but those of us who actually know the craft and have worked in the craft of design- whatever you think of my various games- know a hell of a lot better and are very aware that you're full of shit.

I love you.

Don't do drugs.

Jaffe

I love you more.

Please do drugs.

bender
 

bender

Candy Corn Aficionado
Jaffe is a shock jock. Holy shit, you guys keep falling for it time after time.

He wants a reaction/discussion/engagement and you all are giving it!

It's fun to watch grandpa Jaffe try to keep up with the most obnoxious Youtube personality trends.
 

kevm3

Member
The hyperbole in this thread is getting ridiculous. Asking for more of an indicator that a block is destroyable is not asking for the game to 'hold your hand' or implement an arrow system to tell you directly where to go.

Aside from that, this is actually a good entry in the series and worth playing. The feel and movement is good.
 

Neff

Member
In a game with over 100 rooms to visit, how am I supposed to know WHICH room requires the 'blast everything' solve

I feel like this is the most telling aspect of Jaffe's, er, gaffe, because it falls prey to a crucial piece of context which is being overlooked in this bizarre debate.

When you get to the room in the video, you're locked into a five-room puzzle. Not a hundred rooms. Five. And you can't go back. You can't go anywhere else, until you figure it out. The room with the shootable blocks is the only room with a clear exit to freedom enabled by your abilities at that time, it's practically begging you to investigate it. Whether Jaffe was actually stuck there or not before he started stamping his feet and screaming bad design, I don't know, but there's a reason the game boxes you in like that. It's so you don't waste time looking where you shouldn't be looking for the exit, hiding in plain sight. That's good design.

Here's the internet enjoying good design.


Jaffe is a shock jock. Holy shit, you guys keep falling for it time after time.

A shock jock says outrageous shit which nobody else wants to say, but everybody knows is really true, that's how they get away with it. Whether deliberately or not, Jaffe seems to be following the DSP model.

That is what I love about David Jaffe, no matter what he is discussing, he is always a "straight shooter."

I see what you did there.
 
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tygertrip

Member
At the same time not everything DOES improve with time, and there ARE timeless designs. The idea that everything improves with time is objectively false.

It doesn't matter if you're "with" Jaffe on this, I think it's been shown to be completely untrue for many clearly stated reasons. You can keep digging in your heels, but the puzzles are solvable and logical. It's great design. Plenty of people who are playing this for the first time and didn't grow up with Metroid are getting through it perfectly. You're. just. wrong. You can not understand why 1 + 1 = 2, it doesn't mean it ain't a fact.
I get the feeling he just can't understand that something can both be a great design AND him not personally like it. Hence the mental gymnastics of "Doom/Metroid used to be good design, now it's bad". That Jaffe fellow said that the Metroid designer would fail Game Design 101... maybe that is why SO many modern games have bad (IMO) design, lol. Naa,plenty of great ones out there.
 

tygertrip

Member
Jaffe is a shock jock. Holy shit, you guys keep falling for it time after time.

He wants a reaction/discussion/engagement and you all are giving it!
You are right. For example, in this thread, he blamed the controller for not being able to use the 360° aim. He LITERALLY blamed the controller, instead of saying "Damn, my bad, lol". This is what 7 year old me and my friends would use as an excuse while playing Combat on the 2600. He can't be serious.
 

tygertrip

Member
I'd be right there with the criticisms if they were about the fake lava from Metroid 1. Anyone remember that?
My man. I haven't thought of that in over 30 years. That was some bullshit, lol. Kids (and Jaffe) in here crying about OBVIOUS blocks to shoot, it's funny.
 

tygertrip

Member
the same argument for the lava I could totally understand, Metroid 1 in general is brutal, even required me to draw a map as the game's layout is rather confusing...

... but this??? lol
Kinda worrying that some players seem to don't put any attentiveness to the game they're playing.
They don't want to have to pay attention. They just want to follow an arrow and see pretty graphics and watch cutscenes that only a 12 year old would not find cliched dreck. But instead of sticking to games that give them that, they cry to developers to turn all series into that. They think they are entitled to have every game cater to them. I blame the popularity of echo chambers like Reddit for this mindset, but who knows? Fortunately, it looks like there are more and more games being designed with an old-school mentality, so there are plenty for all.
 
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