Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Baffling move by MS to gimp themselves the first 2 years of a new console gen when first impressions are crucial.
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DF Direct: Xbox Series X First Party Games To Run On Xbox One - Is this a good thing?
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Journey
Banned
I don't understand the concern, knowing full well that most games now a days are designed for PC first, then ported to console, they are NOT made for Nintendo Switch or Xbox One first, then worked up, how ridiculous is that?
When CD Project Red started making the Witcher 3, they knew it would also have to run on Xbox One and PS4 and I see no compromise made to run that game which most PC enthusiasts and their high end PCs were actually being pushed to their max capacity.
Fast forward to today.... The Witcher 3 runs on a Nintendo Switch..... A Nintendo Fucking SWITCH!
All this means is that the same work that CD Project Red had to do to get Witcher 3 to work on a Nintendo Switch will have to be done to get games planned for Xbox Series X or PC to get done on an Xbox One.
Stop the concern trolling, it's so obvious with some people
When CD Project Red started making the Witcher 3, they knew it would also have to run on Xbox One and PS4 and I see no compromise made to run that game which most PC enthusiasts and their high end PCs were actually being pushed to their max capacity.
Fast forward to today.... The Witcher 3 runs on a Nintendo Switch..... A Nintendo Fucking SWITCH!
All this means is that the same work that CD Project Red had to do to get Witcher 3 to work on a Nintendo Switch will have to be done to get games planned for Xbox Series X or PC to get done on an Xbox One.
Stop the concern trolling, it's so obvious with some people
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Coulomb_Barrier
Member
The Witcher 3 runs on a Nintendo Switch.....
A Nintendo Fucking SWITCH!
Doesn't mean The Witcher 3 has to look like crap on PC, it just means that the same work that CD Project Red had to do to get Witcher 3 to work on a Nintendo Switch will have to be done to get games planned for Xbox Series X or PC to get done on an Xbox One.
Stop the concern trolling, it's so obvious with some people
You cant be serious. The difference between the Switch and the 1.3Tflop XB1 is orders of magnitude smaller than between the 1.3Flop XB1 and 12Tflop Xbox series X.
Fanboying aside the Series X is gonna be gimped, no two ways about it.
DynamiteCop!
Banned
Well I could immediately tell something was off because you definitely didn't seem normal.
This is going to sound kind of corny but I need to throw this out there. With great power comes great responsibility, you're in a position of influence and people do take your word as expertise and form their entire viewpoints off of them as if they're gospel. Having said that the reality is you're just like a lot of us, you know what a lot of us do, some more and some less.
Like you read my post and indeed quoted it, Richard nearly word for word rattled off the exact points that I had made. The implications here need to make sense, the worry needs to be based upon something. The three previous examples we have from direct Microsoft involvement and investment are Forza Horizon 2, Rise of the Tomb Raider, and Titanfall just as you highlighted. As I noted and you did as well the Xbox One versions of those games were indeed proper next-gen versions of those games, sure still early gen in terms of functional design but next-gen nonetheless. The 360 versions were pulled from that development and subsequently reworked heavily.
With that in mind where is this sudden worry coming from when the empirical examples point to the opposite? As I also previously noted elsewhere on this board very few early generation games exhibit next-generation ethos and functional design. Sure they look a hell of a lot better but the general mechanics diverge very little and could theoretically be retrofitted to the previous gen under a stripped graphics engine. Going into the 9th generation this would probably hold even more true because we're not transcending a real architectural divide like the PS3/360 were to the PS4/One. By and large this is merely evolutionary advancement of the same architectures already in use and as a result many if not all existing feature sets.
Another thing I would like to ask you is how many next-gen AAA level games do you see falling under this window of time from Microsoft? If we take Matt's word at face value it appears the period of time would merely last from now to possibly a year into the Series X lifecycle, as noted he said "Over the next one, two years". At most this would hypothetically affect a small number of titles, and even then will that effect be meaningful in some negative capacity?
I have to side with Richard on this, I think it's a lot of hyperbole, I think it's a lot of misguided dramatics, we need to have faith in developers knowing what they're doing, how they're going to leverage their technology.
Journey
Banned
You're confused, why are you comparing the difference between Xbox One and Switch instead of Switch or Xbox One vs a High end PC?? Is the Xbox One the definitive version of The Witcher 3? Did the Witcher 3 with everything maxed not make even the highest end PC at the time of its release struggle to hold a decent framerate because the engine is so damn ambitious? Did it not look GLORIOUS and probably the best looking PC title for its time?? Just replace PC with Xbox Series X, and The Witcher 3 with MS First party, that may help you get my point.
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Humdinger
Member
I get John's point about game design being gimped because they have to accommodate lowest common denominator, with CPU and SSD being the major factors there. It's not just about resolution. It's about how the game is fundamentally designed. I'm not a tech guy, but I get that much.
I can see how mandating that the game run on original Xbox One hardware, with its weak CPU and slow storage, would mean that the game must be limited in terms of its design. You can't just downscale a port around those issues, because it's not just a matter of tuning down resolution and whatnot. Those limitations have to be considered from the outset and incorporated into the basics of the game design itself.
I appreciate the poster who explained the advantages of SSD. I've been thinking of that just in terms of no load times, not in terms of all the other factors he mentioned. Good points.
I tend to agree with the people who've said that this is basically just MS being a year behind. They're just not in the position to be able to deliver true next-gen game design at this point. They'll be able to deliver better, more stable 4K resolution and better framerates, but I wouldn't expect much more than that, at least for a couple years.
I'd add that MS execs have made it clear that they don't really think in terms of console generations anymore. I suspect that, if Sony were not releasing a PS5 and starting another console generation, they would not be releasing another console so soon. I think they would've preferred to wait, but they didn't really have a choice. They didn't want to give Sony a year's head start. So they're releasing a new console, but it's a little under-cooked.
I can see how mandating that the game run on original Xbox One hardware, with its weak CPU and slow storage, would mean that the game must be limited in terms of its design. You can't just downscale a port around those issues, because it's not just a matter of tuning down resolution and whatnot. Those limitations have to be considered from the outset and incorporated into the basics of the game design itself.
I appreciate the poster who explained the advantages of SSD. I've been thinking of that just in terms of no load times, not in terms of all the other factors he mentioned. Good points.
I tend to agree with the people who've said that this is basically just MS being a year behind. They're just not in the position to be able to deliver true next-gen game design at this point. They'll be able to deliver better, more stable 4K resolution and better framerates, but I wouldn't expect much more than that, at least for a couple years.
I'd add that MS execs have made it clear that they don't really think in terms of console generations anymore. I suspect that, if Sony were not releasing a PS5 and starting another console generation, they would not be releasing another console so soon. I think they would've preferred to wait, but they didn't really have a choice. They didn't want to give Sony a year's head start. So they're releasing a new console, but it's a little under-cooked.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Its not clear enough because its again based on things that aren't true. I can't tell if you are mistaken and refuse to acknowledge it or simply just want to start arguments.
Assuming I dont know software works is pretty ignorant but whatever. I dont need to go over my resume but to say I dont understand software is hilarious, especially considering I was in the game industry for years, and I even was during the time of Forza Horizon 2 and Shadow of Mourdor. You clearly think you know how software works but the thing about software is that there isn't a blueprint from A to B. What you are describing as facts in software are opinions.
MS to mitigate the compromises between 360 and XB1 used two different teams to handle the games and even so they had to make compromises in scope and scale.
MS never stated this. There isn't a piece of evidence that says Microsoft said that the Xbox One version of Forza Horizon 2 had compromises. They specifically said that the 360 version of the game had compromises because the scope of the world wasn't possible that was in the Xbox One verision.
Microsoft hired a different team specifically so that Playground could focus on the Xbox One version. This was the same case with Titanfall on Xbox360. Bluepoint as hired specifically so Respawn could focus on the Xbox One version and not make compromises and spare dev time on the down-port.
Now imagine if they didn’t do that how amount of compromises they had to do with the game if developed by the same team for XB1 and 360.
I don't understand what you are stating here because its a broken sentence. Elaborate.
DynamiteCop!
Banned
Just ignore him, even the developers themselves stated as much.
This is one angle that developers can take, and they clearly do. They can also extrapolate heavily on their existing work. The whole thing is a bunch of dramatics for a tiny window in time.
ethomaz
Banned
There is nothing broken lol
MS choose two different teams to mitigate the compromisses of the same team doing both versions and even so they ended having to make compromisses.
Now imagine if MS choose to use the same team to do simultaneous both version how much more compromisses they could have...
The fact they had to make two games with two different teams already is proof enough that the scaling is not that magical thing that some posters try to spin in that thread and that a new generation being hold but Xbox One is really a bad decision.
It is that simple.
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Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Is English not your first language? Genuine question? Because I am trying to tell you that your sentences are indeed broken.
Again, where is proof of compromises on the xbox one version. Any proof? Literally anything.
ethomaz
Banned
There is nothing broken in my sentence.
It is so simple that your lack of understanding is starting to show your side.
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DynamiteCop!
Banned
He's from Brazil man, his first language is Portuguese. He causes so many issues around here because of his broken understanding of English.
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ethomaz
Banned
At least it is not like your lies causing issues...
Most users avoid to talk with about due that.
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Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Sure
Well first...
And that's just grammar.
Second, you still haven't given any proof. Why do you avoid questions?
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
I swear some people really have no idea how software development works and they think in such black and white terms. Development is not one or the other, there are many gradients.
It’s like you could say water is wet to some people and they would find a way to argue... Even more so if you say Xbox water is as wet as PlayStation
It’s like you could say water is wet to some people and they would find a way to argue... Even more so if you say Xbox water is as wet as PlayStation
ethomaz
Banned
I did not avoid any question you are the one in cycles lolSure
Well first...
And that's just grammar.
Second, you still haven't given any proof. Why do you avoid questions?
PS. Nice catch my whole phase is impossible to be read because I forget some 's'
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DynamiteCop!
Banned
I mean I agree with you but I would argue with you about water being wet, water is in fact not wet, it makes things wet.I swear some people really have no idea how software development works and they think in such black and white terms. Development is not one or the other, there are many gradients.
It’s like you could say water is wet to some people and they would find a way to argue... Even more so if you say Xbox water is as wet as PlayStation
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Show me proof. Actual evidence that Shadow of Mourdor, Forza Horizon 2 or Titanfall had compromises due to the 360 and in Shadows regard ps3 versions. Anything.
Neofire
Member
What in the entire hell are you talking about. Noone said anything about pc vs console. The topic is about Microsoft gimping their new console by not prioritizing it but instead keeping it at parody with the Xbox one S and Xbox one X.I don't understand the concern, knowing full well that most games now a days are designed for PC first, then ported to console, they are NOT made for Nintendo Switch or Xbox One first, then worked up, how ridiculous is that?
When CD Project Red started making the Witcher 3, they knew it would also have to run on Xbox One and PS4 and I see no compromise made to run that game which most PC enthusiasts and their high end PCs were actually being pushed to their max capacity.
Fast forward to today.... The Witcher 3 runs on a Nintendo Switch..... A Nintendo Fucking SWITCH!
All this means is that the same work that CD Project Red had to do to get Witcher 3 to work on a Nintendo Switch will have to be done to get games planned for Xbox Series X or PC to get done on an Xbox One.
Stop the concern trolling, it's so obvious with some people
DynamiteCop!
Banned
This is the other confusion people like you are introducing, where at all is it stated in any capacity that a build for Series X will be even remotely in "parity" with the Xbox One and One X?
longdi
Banned
Yes i agree with those who say this strategy is ... silly.
Idk, the feelings i got since Phil came into power, besides their passive-aggressive online attacks, the xbox team is veering too much into cowardly flattery onto their core supporters.
This move sounds like a 'welcoming' one, but IM old school opinions, console gaming shouldnt be this way. There should be confidence to do what is the best for a new gen, on a universal basis, not just flavoring your hardcore fans.
I just feels Xbox peaked when J.Allard led the team. Those days, they were courageous and got that yolo confidence to make their own path. You may dislike them but you cant say they didnt speak their minds. Today's xbox team seems full of cancel-culture inside them.
Idk, the feelings i got since Phil came into power, besides their passive-aggressive online attacks, the xbox team is veering too much into cowardly flattery onto their core supporters.
This move sounds like a 'welcoming' one, but IM old school opinions, console gaming shouldnt be this way. There should be confidence to do what is the best for a new gen, on a universal basis, not just flavoring your hardcore fans.
I just feels Xbox peaked when J.Allard led the team. Those days, they were courageous and got that yolo confidence to make their own path. You may dislike them but you cant say they didnt speak their minds. Today's xbox team seems full of cancel-culture inside them.
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01011001
Banned
All Xbox Game Studios games will release on PC, that would be the case even if they didn't support the Xbox One anymore.
and on PC you have to make games work on lower end hardware aswell.
you can't come out with a game next year that needs at least an RTX2080 to run.
Tulipanzo
Member
DF has also highlighted how NO CURRENT PC can even work with a Jaguar CPU, so effectively games would still need "special porting" to even work on X1
Many of the cross-gen ports we've seen were also huge disappointments, and this time we're going to see a much more impressive jump across every single component.
You also seem to mistake people's criticism as being about the mere existence of cross-gen titles.
Supporting X1 beyond 2020 is MS's prerogative, and not of much importance.
The issue: MS's inability/unwillingness to invest in exclusive titles, something every single console, including XBox has been able to achieve to this point.
Bringing up GTAV is a tad ridiculous, and misses my point.
Unless MS plans to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on every game, plus an extra year of dev time, GTAV is not what we're looking at here in terms of releases.
This goes back to the porting point, but you need extra time, an extra dev team, OR BOTH to get a largely disappointing running title, even with a much blander CPU jump.
Thing is, a GP user is also somebody you want to upgrade eventually.
You're considering people that have already invested heavily in XBox, but they need to attract way more people on the fences.
I had an X1 and sold it because of the lack of interesting titles. What can MS do to get somebody like me on board?
What about in regions where they don't have a foothold? How will you deal with fewer titles on X1 as devs move to next-gen, even if yo don't?
GP is a fine idea, but it's not a silver bullet to mainstream success.
We end, with a complete ignorance of how Sony handles gens.
Let me be clear: Sony will absolutely move on from PS4 at the end of this year. They supported it well for 7 years.
In 2020 it's still getting more games, and arguably better support than the X1, despite that console having two extra years of titles coming...
To summarize your vision for Next-Gen:
- not getting any next-gen exclusives ready in time is normal
- cross-gen games will be comparable to the most expensive game ever made's 1 year porting process, without additional dev-time (or extra developers involved)
- the CPU jump, GPU jump, SSD, RT and VRS will NOT affect the above
- none of the GP subscribers will drop the service or consider any other platform
- Sony won't take advantage of this position at all
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
I mean I agree with you but I would argue with you about water being wet, water is in fact not wet, it makes things wet.
Ah-ha!! Caught myself a Sony fan! No use hiding now, you've been caught red handed!
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Do what mate?
DynamiteCop!
Banned
NX Gamer's recent video completely invalidates that entire logic, because with a 750 Ti and an FX8350 @ 4.2Ghz the Xbox One S was still able to provide a better and more stable experience overall.
The Jaguar on paper is considerably weaker, but in a closed highly tuned setup like this where code is manipulated around a single specification you get a lot of benefits that PC does not because it has to brute force everything to a large degree.
I'd suggest you watch this.
Journey
Banned
I can only try to explain, but the understanding is on your part. If you don't understand that Xbox Series X game development can be exactly the same way as the Witcher 3 was created for high end PC and then ported down, then there's no point in continuing.
-Why would there need to be Parody? [SIC]
-How can there be such a difference between Witcher 3 high end PC, PS4 Pro/X1X, Xbox One/PS4 and Nintendo Switch when you claim parity must be forced in these scenarios?
-What's stopping XGS from applying this same philosophy for their first party titles?
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Fake
Member
I'm from Brazil as well. Any problem with that?
DynamiteCop!
Banned
Not unless it linguistically presents a problem, no.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Are you writing nonsensical sentences that you are claiming are facts which can't even be deciphered?
JLB
Banned
"Let me be clear: Sony will absolutely move on from PS4 at the end of this year. They supported it well for 7 years."
So why to buy a piece of hardware on 2020 (ps4) that allegedly will be completely abandoned in a few months?
Regarding your interpretation of my vision for next gen:
- not getting any next-gen exclusives ready in time is normal -> It is the usual, even for next gen exclusive titles. I dont recall a single really next gen, pushing graphics game on PS4 or Xbox during first year. Maybe Ryse, and thats it.
- cross-gen games will be comparable to the most expensive game ever made's 1 year porting process, without additional dev-time (or extra developers involved) -> Im not a gaming dev, dont know the cost structure moving forward. For sure theres extra cost and extra devs involved (DF correctly point out separate teams making 360 port of FH2 ie), but I dont have the details.
- the CPU jump, GPU jump, SSD, RT and VRS will NOT affect the above -> Same answer as above, im not a gaming dev, dont know the details.
- none of the GP subscribers will drop the service or consider any other platform -> Never said this.
- Sony won't take advantage of this position at all -> Never said this.
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Sure
Well first...
And that's just grammar.
Second, you still haven't given any proof. Why do you avoid questions?
The both of you dial it back on these types of personal attacks. Not everyone is a native English speaker, and it really isn't that hard to decipher what he is writing. Come on guys.
Now if you agree with what he is saying or not is open for debate, hence we have a forum for discussion.
Fake
Member
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DynamiteCop!
Banned
It's not a personal attack and shouldn't be associated that way. I mean let's be real here. It presents a tangible issue with discussion because these guys come in here who natively do not speak/read the language and decipher what's being said incorrectly. As a result they continue to argue on the basis of what they didn't understand and it just causes a host of unnecessary issues and confusion which muddles entire threads.
This not only ruins threads, it spreads a host of misinformation which can further confuse and mislead people who come into them. Me highlighting the problem shouldn't be viewed as the problem, the linguistic breakdown is the problem.
Not everyone can speak and read English to a native level, that's a given. However if that inability to do so is causing problems it needs to be brought up.
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Dory16
Banned
What about the difference between the Xbox One X and the Switch? or the high end PC and the switch? You are being narrow minded and I hope it's intentional. The point here is that well designed games scale across platforms of vastly different power, including high end RTX PCs and a Nintendo Switch. They can therefore scale across the Series X and the Xbox One. I don't think that CD Project was thinking about what can run on the switch when they designed the Witcher 3. Things are not gonna look pretty on the One but if anything that also encourages upgrading.
Grinchy
Banned
Those were supposed to be Xbox One games and continue to be. They would be throwing years of development time away if they scrapped it and started a XSX-only version of them. This would be like Sony throwing away the Ghost of Tsushima or TLoU2 PS4 versions because they wanted to make PS5 versions instead.
The difference is that Sony has a ton of studios and are doing last-gen enhancements, just like Microsoft, along with having the ability to get next-gen software done in time on top of it. Microsoft doesn't have this ability.
The leftover Xbone software that was coming out in its final year is just being upgraded on XSX, and being called "next-gen software that you can play on any Xbox!" to hide the reality that they just didn't have the ability to get next-gen software out with the launch of their next-gen console. It's so clear that it amazes me that there's anyone who can't see it, even if they are ardent fans.
Get off your pedestal. There are far less abrasive ways to engage and educate someone you feel is misunderstanding of what they are reading or not. Piling on with needless antagonism is what ruins threads.
Fake
Member
Jaguar will put a huge limit on physics.
DynamiteCop!
Banned
This implies I didn't also tactfully try to explain to this individual exactly what he wasn't understanding, which mind you I did. It's not a pedestal, it's a problem when you explain the misunderstanding to the individual yet they continue to argue on the basis of their misunderstanding. To add to this they won't give any credence to the fact that you do completely understand it as you are a native speaker, and are trying to not only help them understand but also quell the misinformation.
This isn't something new, this has been a long standing problem with this individual for an extended period of time spanning multiple topics, but I digress.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
I would love to discuss this in a PM and not in a forum thread because I in no way bullied him. I was debating and trying to understand his argument and presented questions to which he answered in a way that didn't make sense due to his sentence structure and word usage. Trying to understand where he was coming from and actually get an argument out of him instead of letting him continue to shit post isn't bullying. So he can be passive aggressive and say I dont understand software and am "in cycles." I understand you said we both need to dial it back but there's nothing for me to dial back.
Sw0pDiller
Member
This Richard is in full defence mode and was pointed out by the other guy that not only graphics can make or break a game but the whole engine is gimped by the fact that new games must be compatible with the old jaguar cores. It baffles me that Richard from DF must be helped see the bottlenecks this decision brings. he must put down his old MS glasses and smell the roses. PS5 will support full BC with PS4 and will bring full nex gen experiences ons PS5 only games. that's te way we like it and how it should be.
We see on PC that just getting to 4K 60fps takes a boatload of power. If next gen games are gonna be running at 4K 60fps then it’s feasible they can be scaled to sub 1080p ~30 and run on current systems.
This is just a bunch of debate about nothing. Games will continue their gradual improvement in graphics, and technology that they always have.
This is just a bunch of debate about nothing. Games will continue their gradual improvement in graphics, and technology that they always have.
DynamiteCop!
Banned
I mean there's even more downward verticality than that, people seem really confused as to the levels in which a game can be stripped. You can make a modern game look like it's from the Nintendo 64 for crying out loud, there's so much scalability it's not even funny.
Dory16
Banned
There goes stable 30 fps. I honestly see it as the most consumer friendly way to say "time to upgrade", rather than "those 450£ you spent on a X 3 years ago can now only play legacy games".
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
This really depends on the developer and engine used but this is correct.
The argument that these devs wouldn't be using new tech, lets say a new physics engine for example, is a fair argument but with software it can always be adapted, but it will take time and money. The question is more will the developers/publishers take the time to actually do this?
Get over this discussion, and take it to a meta thread if you want to address a user in this manner. Discussing his "grammar and English sentence parsing" adds nothing of value to the thread. If you claim he is misunderstanding, what do you think going in on his grammar and the like is going to do?
Think about it.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Fundamental issues:
1. Not building around the facilities gained by the presence of the SSD is disappointing. What that tech potentially brings to the table is far more than quicker load times, but to reap those rewards you need to design around it. You cannot back-port it.
2. MS needs to maintain support to GamePass, and adding Scarlett-only titles to that service is problematic in several ways. e.g. Fragmentation/devalaution of the service to Xbox One users .
3. This strategy puts what should be a full generation shift to exact parity as a mid-gen refresh. I think this will stand against it in terms of sales potential.
1. Not building around the facilities gained by the presence of the SSD is disappointing. What that tech potentially brings to the table is far more than quicker load times, but to reap those rewards you need to design around it. You cannot back-port it.
2. MS needs to maintain support to GamePass, and adding Scarlett-only titles to that service is problematic in several ways. e.g. Fragmentation/devalaution of the service to Xbox One users .
3. This strategy puts what should be a full generation shift to exact parity as a mid-gen refresh. I think this will stand against it in terms of sales potential.
01011001
Banned
exactly. Microsoft made it very clear that their focus is to have games run at at least 60fps. and they will also push for 4k.
so quatering the resolution and halfing the framerate will already give them a shit-ton of leeway.
reduce the drawdistance, half the texture resolution... boom, you got an Xbox One version.
and half the framerate also means animations can run at 30hz, also saving resources.
The Switch shows just how low you can push modern engines that look phenomenal when maxed out.
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