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[Tschumi]

I want to avoid a wall of text, so I'll try to break this into points:

> Diablo 3 was criticized for a visual style that pulled punches.
> Diablo 3 was also very coasty at each of the difficulty levels available at the start (in the more refined form it is sold in today).
> For some*, Diablo 3 was forgettable - forgettable bosses, forgettable monsters, forgettable experience.
> Since Diablo 3, some very influential Soulsborne titles have wow'd players.
> We've been reintroduced to the joy of hugely difficult games with high narrative payoffs.
> Soulsborne games are glumpth-soaked, hugely atmospheric gothik visual experiences that pull no punches. *I believe an equivalence can be drawn between the two games thanks to their similar ideals here*
> Like rechargable personal shields and quick time events, I'm not sure there's much of a place for super high kill count, coasty button mashers after the decade we've just had.
> Unless Diablo 4 makes use of effective difficulty ramps, and a robust system of counters to those difficult situations, it might feel dated and forgettable.

* - I know a lot of people out there disagree with this. I've actually really enjoyed D3 lately on PS3, at the urging of a fine GAFer i ken, but i hope for much more from D4.

(Disclaimer: for the sake of brevity i passed over a number of finer points about d3)

This is just my thought. I saw Diablo 4, i saw Lilith's badass introductory cinematic, and i thought to myself: there is no way this boss is going to live up to this cinematic unless she draws actual blood from us.

 

[xpresstuning]

The original Diablo is basically what you'd call "SoulsBorne" and is a completely different beast compared to anything that came after and the entire genre it sparked into existence. Diablo 4 needs to be the original Diablo with modern sensibilities. Here's a thread i made on the original because i was surprised at how much fun i had playing it for the first time.

 

[Bonfires Down]

Yes. I selected the highest available difficulty for my first D3 playthrough and I was so bored a lot of the time. D2 felt 10x harder and more engaging than that.

 

[Tschumi]

The original Diablo is basically what you'd call "SoulsBorne" and is a completely different beast compared to anything that came after and the entire genre it sparked into existence. Diablo 4 needs to be the original Diablo with modern sensibilities. Here's a thread i made on the original because i was surprised at how much fun i had playing it for the first time.

D1 was actually the second videogame i ever played.. came to gaming a bit late, I was about 10 years old.. a young felluh.. i have reason to believe it may have actually altered the development of my muscles somehow, thanks to how tightly i clinched the whole time.. until The Butcher bellowed out "MMMM FRESH MEAT" and i crapped myself.

 

[Slings and Arrows]

Diabolo 4 should start fixed and working.

Diablo 3 was lost in what it wanted to be and how it wanted to be seen. In the end they made an fun game mechanically. Outside of that was drivel.

I hope Diablo 4 goes back to its darker roots with the story. The texts and tomes hidden around Diablo 1 and 2 painted a very dark story.

Wide open areas should make a return as well. They sort of did it in a few areas (the desert settings) but the rest felt really small.

Either way I'll buy it day one. I loves me some Diablo

 

[DanEON]

Just copy Diablo 2, and thats it.

 

[Tschumi]

Diabolo 4 should start fixed and working.

Diablo 3 was lost in what it wanted to be and how it wanted to be seen. In the end they made an fun game mechanically. Outside of that was drivel.

I hope Diablo 4 goes back to its darker roots with the story. The texts and tomes hidden around Diablo 1 and 2 painted a very dark story.

Wide open areas should make a return as well. They sort of did it in a few areas (the desert settings) but the rest felt really small.

Either way I'll buy it day one. I loves me some Diablo

You and me both hopelessly devoted, to quote Grease

 

[AV]

Your OP is a bit of a mess and I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make comparing Diablo to Souls. In terms of difficulty they're completely incomparable. Souls games have one difficulty level and that's the entire point, Diablo 3 has twenty.

 

[xpresstuning]

D1 was actually the second videogame i ever played.. came to gaming a bit late, I was about 10 years old.. a young felluh.. i have reason to believe it may have actually altered the development of my muscles somehow, thanks to how tightly i clinched the whole time.. until The Butcher bellowed out "MMMM FRESH MEAT" and i crapped myself.

I never played it before it released on GOG, what took me by surprise was how much of a different video game it was compared to even Diablo 2. I don't think there's anything quite like it except for Soulsborne. The atmosphere is top notch, and i feel like replaying it far more than the other entries in the series.

 

[klosos]

Lets be honest Path of Exile wipes the floor with D3 , builds , content so on. If anything Blizzard need to look at Grinding Gear Games and take notes and try to emulate there success

all whilst trying to catch the feel and atmosphere of two.

What i have seen with D4 the atmosphere is going in the right direction.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Diablo 3 doesn't have a "difficulty" so much as it has an "EXP and loot multiplier". You push yourself into the highest difficulties to obtain enough gear to push into even higher difficulties, even though your build and your tactics don't necessarily change

 

[fermcr]

Why do people keep insisting that every game needs to be similar to "Souls" gameplay?

I hate "Souls" gameplay. It's slow, it's clunky, it's crap.

 

[Moonjt9]

If they copied nioh and had Diablo 1’s setting and Diablo 2’s loot, well I think that there might be the best game ever.

 

[Red Rackham's Revenge]

Wasn't the high difficulty one of the complaints people had with vanilla D3 at release? I didn't play until Reaper of Souls so I'm not sure, but I remember hearing a lot of that kind of talk.

 

[HF2014]

I want to avoid a wall of text, so I'll try to break this into points:

> Diablo 3 was criticized for a visual style that pulled punches.
> Diablo 3 was also very coasty at each of the difficulty levels available at the start (in the more refined form it is sold in today).
> For some*, Diablo 3 was forgettable - forgettable bosses, forgettable monsters, forgettable experience.
> Since Diablo 3, some very influential Soulsborne titles have wow'd players.
> We've been reintroduced to the joy of hugely difficult games with high narrative payoffs.
> Soulsborne games are glumpth-soaked, hugely atmospheric gothik visual experiences that pull no punches. *I believe an equivalence can be drawn between the two games thanks to their similar ideals here*
> Like rechargable personal shields and quick time events, I'm not sure there's much of a place for super high kill count, coasty button mashers after the decade we've just had.
> Unless Diablo 4 makes use of effective difficulty ramps, and a robust system of counters to those difficult situations, it might feel dated and forgettable.

* - I know a lot of people out there disagree with this. I've actually really enjoyed D3 lately on PS3, at the urging of a fine GAFer i ken, but i hope for much more from D4.

(Disclaimer: for the sake of brevity i passed over a number of finer points about d3)

This is just my thought. I saw Diablo 4, i saw Lilith's badass introductory cinematic, and i thought to myself: there is no way this boss is going to live up to this cinematic unless she draws actual blood from us.

Wait OP, did i read right and you said you enjoy D3 on PS3? Thats the problem. Dont know if you got youself a PS4, but grab the Ultimate Edition. Better monster density at higher level, more difficulty level, patch up to latest patch. I remember playing it on PS3 and thinking it was a joke. Its way more fun and challenging

 

[nosseman]

Just copy Diablo 2, and thats it.

I dont think even the hard core D2-fans would want this.

I have played D1, D2, D3 and lately a lot of Path Of Exile. My hope is that they make a solid game that you can "finish" (the story mode) in 10-15 hours the first time.

Then make a beautiful end games system with new content added each season - just like PoE -Delirium, Heist, Harvest, Blight, Legion and so on. These are all new content with new mechanics.

What I want is a little more accessible PoE with new content added each season. I pay for new content (or stash spaces).

 

[Azurro]

I played Diablo 3 a while ago for PS4. I had never played a Diablo before and was curious. So, aside from being very underwhelmed by the graphics, I started playing and found that there was no strategy, just waves and waves of monsters that can be easily killed. It became very boring, extremely fast.

It was so forgettable I don't remember anything that stood out, other than thinking "that's it? People on PC were losing their minds over this?". I honestly don't get the point, there was no skill, no positioning, no timing, just mindlessly pressing buttons to kill the mob, rinse and repeat.

 

[Tschumi]

Wait OP, did i read right and you said you enjoy D3 on PS3? Thats the problem. Dont know if you got youself a PS4, but grab the Ultimate Edition. Better monster density at higher level, more difficulty level, patch up to latest patch. I remember playing it on PS3 and thinking it was a joke. Its way more fun and challenging

My d3 copy is ultimate edition

Wasn't the high difficulty one of the complaints people had with vanilla D3 at release? I didn't play until Reaper of Souls so I'm not sure, but I remember hearing a lot of that kind of talk.

Yeah, that was at release, but the build most people buy and play today is much changed, and it's the one i refer to in the relevant part of my op

 

[martino]

Diablo 1 ambiance is the best imo
overall it seems i prefer games where ambiance is more focused at one place more than traveling a lot

 

[SweetShark]

Something like "Diablo 1" come to mind. Slow and methodical. Maybe this type of gameplay style must make a return.
Like Hell this happen, but I just saying...

 

[bati]

As long as difficulty is not handled with HP bloat and/or oneshot mechanics. PoE tries to be hardcore and most people are finally waking up to the fact that the game turned into an all in nothing when it comes to boss fights, and that building for max offense is the way to go.

 

[HE1NZ]

Diablo 4 needs to be more like Diablo 1. Maybe in a way it was more souls like.

 

[HF2014]

My d3 copy is ultimate edition



Yeah, that was at release, but the build most people buy and play today is much changed, and it's the one i refer to in the relevant part of my op

Well, its not the same thing, i can garantee you. Bigger monster density is already a big plus. And patch update to this day make it even better. And i got it wrong, get the Eternal Collection. You get the necromancer with it and dont remember but also the extra act? ( was maybe included in Ultimate Evil Edition, dont remember)

Its night and day im telling you. I also bought it on PS3 at first, and its not the same game for difficulty snd stuff you can do with it. You get all the latest patfh to this day, seasons etc.

 

[DavidGzz]

I always thought of Dark Souls as being like Diablo mixed with Castlevania. Anyway, yes I would love for it to be difficult. Vanilla Diablo 3 on inferno was tough af but the RMAH ruined it.

 

[drotahorror]

Diablo 4 just needs more depth in builds, more, better, and fun end-game content, darker atmosphere, more interesting loot, challenging mechanics for bosses/zones, and just overall better direction than D3 had.

 

[MrFunSocks]

Nah Diablo 2 was fine. Make Diablo 4 like Diablo 3 but with more Diablo 2 and I’ll be happy.

Diablo is nothing like any souls games either, keep that type of game out of my Diablo.

 

[Elpidio Valdés]

I had a great time with Diablo 3. I picked the Necromancer class and I found the gameplay incredible satisfying. Was the game easy, yes it was but I had a blast laying the smackdown on the enemies candy asses. I haven't played any of the previous games though.

 

[Lanrutcon]

Oh boy. So uh...none of you played D3 on PC launch, eh?

In case you didn't, allow me to be a window into the absolute slaughter that was release D3: it was absolutely fucking crazy brutal hard. Fuck Souls games, D3 was INSANE before the massive overhaul/patching. The moment you started jumping difficulties (D3 has many of those) Normal enemies 2 to 3 shot you, special attacks were instant death. Special enemies with lasers and shit? Touch a pool or a beam and die. Potions were useless. Defensive skills that didn't grant complete invulnerability were useless. Melee characters would often die mid-skill animation as they tried to engage an enemy. Fighting a pack of enemies was like playing a bullet hell shooter. Fighting multiple packs of enemies was impossible. 90% of the builds and skills didn't do anything or just got you killed. Certain keywords on certain enemies made them unbeatable (oh look, the burrowing enemy that's invincible while burrowed has a damaging aura that 3 shot you and doesn't require it to surface. Neat!). Maps with small rooms just weren't played because how? open a door, instantly die. Certain enemies were so unfair people thought they were bugged (hey, remember those giant bees that shot like machine guns?). People would spend hours just to kill a single special enemy (kite kite kite kite) for a single drop, and call that a win.

You think you want a harder Diablo game, but you don't know what you're asking for. We've been there. It made Bloodborne look like Minecraft.

 

[Hendrick's]

It needs to be more like Diablo 2. Three was garbage.

 

[iJudged]

nyet, much like WoW, it's going to be dumbed down for broader audience. My 2 yea old will be able to play it.

 

[AV]

Oh boy. So uh...none of you played D3 on PC launch, eh?

In case you didn't, allow me to be a window into the absolute slaughter that was release D3: it was absolutely fucking crazy brutal hard. Fuck Souls games, D3 was INSANE before the massive overhaul/patching. The moment you started jumping difficulties (D3 has many of those) Normal enemies 2 to 3 shot you, special attacks were instant death. Special enemies with lasers and shit? Touch a pool or a beam and die. Potions were useless. Defensive skills that didn't grant complete invulnerability were useless. Melee characters would often die mid-skill animation as they tried to engage an enemy. Fighting a pack of enemies was like playing a bullet hell shooter. Fighting multiple packs of enemies was impossible. 90% of the builds and skills didn't do anything or just got you killed. Certain keywords on certain enemies made them unbeatable (oh look, the burrowing enemy that's invincible while burrowed has a damaging aura that 3 shot you and doesn't require it to surface. Neat!). Maps with small rooms just weren't played because how? open a door, instantly die. Certain enemies were so unfair people thought they were bugged (hey, remember those giant bees that shot like machine guns?). People would spend hours just to kill a single special enemy (kite kite kite kite) for a single drop, and call that a win.

You think you want a harder Diablo game, but you don't know what you're asking for. We've been there. It made Bloodborne look like Minecraft.

D3 must be nerfed to hell now, I only played on PC at launch on normal then hard, and it wasn't that hard.

Unless you're talking specifically about master levels and above, I didn't touch those. I also played a mage or wizard or whatever it was called so I killed a lot of shit from afar.

 

[Ogbert]

The point of Diablo is to loot farm and create different builds.

It’s an entirely different game. It’s like saying Mario should play like Command and Conquer.

 

[Lanrutcon]

D3 must be nerfed to hell now, I only played on PC at launch on normal then hard, and it wasn't that hard.

Unless you're talking specifically about master levels and above, I didn't touch those. I also played a mage or wizard or whatever it was called so I killed a lot of shit from afar.

There was a massive set of patches before the expansion was even announced. The D3 that launched on consoles was already miles different than the launch version, then the overhaul hit, the DLC hit, etc etc. Normal was fine, and then shit got real.

And as I type that, I am certain I am not adequately conveying how brutal the launch difficulty was. Everything fucked you up. With any attack. And Diablo 3 is a game where things travel in packs, and have many many ways of hitting you at range. I remember one of my friends marveling at my "skills" after I spent 20 minutes kiting a special to death with the Demon Hunter, knowing that if it touched me I'd be sent back to camp and it would get all its hp back.

Edit: It was Inferno. Inferno in launch D3 was where the difficulty curve covered itself in razor blades and pig fat...and then cut the lights.

 

[Saber]

I find the idea of calling anything hard/difficult a "Souls" pretty much the top of stupidty.

Now I admit that Diablo 1 was pretty fun to play because of it's limitations and hardcore enemies(even though it was pretty much because of limitations of its time), but I would not choose that route. I rather prefer Diablo 2 route, which made builds and dealing with enemies pretty much fun.

 

[RoboFu]

nah i loved that it was a game I could just run through multiple times as a OP killing machine.

 

[Kuranghi]

nah i loved that it was a game I could just run through multiple times as a OP killing machine.

Thats the main reason I played it - theorycrafting ridiculous builds and playing them on the highest difficulty that allowed ultra fast murder. DH strafe/Barb WW build was so fun.

To OP:

I've never played Diablo 1 or 2.

When I first saw the trailer for Diablo 3 I was so fucking excited, then there wasn't much talk for years and it faded to the back of my mind. When it came out in 2012 my friend was saying how he might be interested because he used to play D2 years before.

I went to the local supermarket and picked it up for a lot less than the Battle.net digital price, which was really high to me at the time, probably because I don't play sports games, it was a similar price to those. After a few hours I called my friend and told him to buy it because it was pretty fun and that day we ended up playing 14 hours in a row and I forgot to eat two whole meals, whoops.

Over the next 4 years I put about ~2000 hours across 8-10 characters. Used to love just coming up with builds and rerolling those near perfect drops to see if I could hit the jackpot. It was in a sorry state at the start compared to even 6 months later and removing the RMAH really helped the game be better because the drop rates increased massively.

I mostly loved it for the physics and graphics of the action, I loved slashing enemies in two as a Barb or melting them to death with the Archon mega-lazers.

I never really cared about how "difficult" it was, I did not play the game for that sort of challenge, it was more about theorycrafting and getting those drops.

PLEASE JESU CHRISTI DON'T MAKE IT INTO A GAME LIKE YOU DESCRIBE, BLIZZARD. This isn't and shouldn't be that sort of game imo, its a loot-gambling, paper doll dressup and theorycrafting game to me.

 

[Xyphie]

We had Diablo 3 with "hard tuning". Running outside the town in Act II and getting one-shot by wasps on Inferno wasn't fun and people hated it. The franchise is about facerolling huge hordes of mobs.

 

[Null Persp]

I still have nightmares about those elite mobs of Diablo 3 vanilla.

 

[Atrus]

Diablo and Diablo 2 made you fear encounters that could be around the next corner. Diablo 3 made the encounters fear you as your tore your way effortlessly through everything.

 

[QuantumZebra]

It needs a difficulty mode in between permadeath and the current highest one IMO. It requires less tactics/movement/strategy than Soulsborne, far less.

I still have nightmares about those elite mobs of Diablo 3 vanilla.

I feel like they were harder at release.

 

[Edgelord79]

I apologise in advance for the wall of text, but I feel these genres are not very comparable or even meld well.

ARPG difficulty usually centers around the endgame not in getting to the end of the game. Endgame in this case being defined as starting when you finish the campaign. Even Path of Exile is a pretty easy run to the endgame after you know how things work.

The problem is that in these games difficulty encompasses complexity and loot. Souls games are not complicated. They are actually quite simple. They are difficult though. An ARPG like Diablo will only be as difficult as its skill tree and loot table. An RPG Souls game can be beaten by someone wearing no armour and a knife... If they are good enough at mechanics.

This is why ARPG's like Diablo need to have complex skill trees. The difficulty is in finding optimal and efficient builds, not so much in the playing of the game. If you don't have that, then you have Torchlight 3. All discussion of difficulty must revolve around the skill tree first. Diablo 3 is often criticized for being too easy. Take a look at the skills and how loot interacts with it and you'll understand why. There isn't enough complexity. On the other hand Path of Exile has been criticized for the opposite reason.

Loot is also tied to difficulty. Not enough and players will stop playing. Too much then it can become too easy. Souls games do not deal with this the same way I believe.

Raising the difficulty to something of a Souls game would require a fundamental rethink of the genre and how it is approached. You would have to tie difficulty to gameplay mechanics mostly with very little to emphasis on skill trees. I don't think this is what most players would want that play this genre, and it certainly wasn't what Diablo 1 or 2 was.

This is not an easy genre to make games that last for a long time. Of the ones currently out, I'd say Path of Exile does the best job because it does emphasize mechanics.

 

[Bolivar687]

The game need some level of a challenging option. Turning it all the way up on a new character does nothing in D3.

 

[johntown]

As long as its optional I am fine with it. I like hard games but these types of games with random loot and bullet sponge enemies no thank you.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

I couldn't believe how easy Diablo 3 was. I played it on normal and there was absolutely zero challenge.

Meanwhile Bloodstained and Trials of Mana actually require strategy and challenge at same difficultly. I can't tell you how many times I died in Bloodstained or sweated to a boss fight in Trials of Mana.

 

[Life]

Main reason I never even touched 3 is cos I knew it was too easy.

 

[prinz_valium]

D3 at the beginning was perfect

 

[Spukc]

Just copy Diablo 2, and thats it.

sad but true.
all they basically have to do is 4k update D2. like they did starcraft
i don't get why this is so hard honestly

 

[Allandor]

Why should be everything like souls-games now?
There are people that don't want to get stressed by a game, they just wanna have fun

Diablo 3 was and still is a great game. Yes it had a real loot problem at the beginning (always finding stuff you really don't need), but those were fixed at the beginning.

If a game is to easy for you, just use the higher difficulty setting (including hardcore mode) and be happy. Not everyone wants this stuff. Optional it is totally ok, but a forced harder difficulty is nothing they should add.

Really always those discussions about those kind of "religious" entitled gamers that want to turn everything in a souls-like game ... really stop that shit.

 

[cucuchu]

When Diablo 3 first released, the higher difficulties were significantly harder than they are now. It was almost an entirely different game though. No rifts or any of the current end game loop (from what I remember). I know when I got to the highest difficulty I was just getting gibbed instantly by certain affixes, then again I wasn't playing any sort of meta or anything.

I think having boss encounters where you cannot just ignore mechanics would go a long way in terms of adding maybe not difficulty but at least interesting gameplay vs just zerg and ignore everything.

 

[jaysius]

The thing that made Diablo 3 "play itself" was that the default attack was a spell or something, NOT just an ATTACK with your basic weapon, this is what made the game feel stupid and easy, every attack was a "special move" when EVERY ATTACK is SPECIAL, NO attack is SPECIAL.

They need to bring back scarcity in the skills usage.