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[Ponn]

Well, this probably is not going to help this thread any but if I don't post it someone will. Just heard on the news Trayvon's mom filed for trademarks on two different phrases in relation to Trayvon including "I am Trayvon"

 

[Baconsammy]

Stop using weight as a factor. That would get laughed out of court. I'm 210 pounds and I have no doubt that I could kick the crap out of someone that was 500 pounds. Agility, speed, and intelligence are more valuable in a fight. More than likely this is going to come down to self-defense. A good lawyer could argue that if Trayvon did in fact attack Zimmerman, he was doing so in self-defense because the dude was clearly (and admittedly) stalking him.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Stop using weight as a factor. That would get laughed out of court. I'm 210 pounds and I have no doubt that I could kick the crap out of someone that was 500 pounds. Agility, speed, and intelligence are more valuable in a fight. More than likely this is going to come down to self-defense. A good lawyer could argue that if Trayvon did in fact attack Zimmerman, he was doing so in self-defense because the dude was clearly (and admittedly) stalking him.

right. Trayvon's use of force was justified self-defense. Any force on Zimmerman's part is criminal.

The only question is to what extent? Manslaughter, 2nd degree murder, or 1st degree murder?

 

[Liberty4all]

It doesn't matter whether or not he's racist. He stalked and killed an unarmed teenager he outweighed by 100 lbs. And why did he kill him? Because the teen acted in self defense against someone stalking him in the middle of the night.

That's murder. There was only one party acting out of self-defense. Unless you believe Zimmerman's story, which is essentially that Travyon at first tried running away from Zimmerman (he says this himself in the 911 call, Travyon was fleeing), then had a change of heart and stalked Zimmerman back to his car and jumped him. (this being the 3rd revision of Zimmerman's story IIRC)

Assuming Narrative #1 turns out to be true then yeah ... Zimmerman committed murder and is guilty. If Narrative #2 is true Zimmerman acted in self defence and is innocent.

Personally I have no opinion until I see a conviction or exoneration. I won't convict a man, who claims he is innocent, in the court of public opinion before he has had a fair trial with all the evidence being weighed out before a jury of peers.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Assuming Narrative #1 turns out to be true then yeah ... it's murder. If Narrative #2 is true it's self defence.

Personally I have no opinion until I see a conviction or exoneration. I won't convict a man who claims he is innocent in the court of public opinion before he has had a fair trial with all the evidence being weighed out before a jury of peers.

Man, Narrative #2 contradicts everyone's account except Zimmerman in part, and even then it goes against what Zimmerman said on the 911 tape, as well as human psychology. Is it possible? Yes. But it does not sound at all reasonable. You do not change from flight response to fight response unless you are forced to. Especially when you feel the need to alert your girlfriend and the authorities.

If a 911 tape comes out with Trayvon saying "I'm going to go back and show that son of a bitch a lesson." I'll change my stance.

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

Considering the fact we wouldn't even know that this story existed unless people went out of their way to kick and scream about how twisted the whole investigation was, fuck waiting for the justice system to decide how guilty he is. That same system nearly swept the whole fucking thing under the rug. No one has to wait for a court to give them the ok to have an opinion on this.

 

[Allard]

Assuming Narrative #1 turns out to be true then yeah ... Zimmerman committed murder and is guilty. If Narrative #2 is true Zimmerman acted in self defence and is innocent.

Personally I have no opinion until I see a conviction or exoneration. I won't convict a man who claims he is innocent in the court of public opinion before he has had a fair trial with all the evidence being weighed out before a jury of peers.

And that's precisely why this story has gotten so much traction. If it wasn't for the outcry and there wouldn't even be a glimmer of hope to get this guy 'potentially' tried. In the end the real story isn't even Zimmerman, its the whole circus around the Sanford PD and the "Stand your ground" law. At this point I feel pretty confident he will get a trial (whether he gets acquitted or successfully charged with a crime is another thing entirely). What I really want at this point is heads to roll at that Police Department. They are unbelievably incompetent at best to criminally corrupt at worse. The "Stand Your Ground" law in itself is another can of worms on top of all this story. What a lot of people are getting emotional about in regards to this thread is to see the story morph into character assassination of the victim instead of the focus on why this story even got to the point it is at in the first place. No trial and no arrest, and it still remains to be that way. When a trial date is officially set or he is formally arrested, when either of those happens I think a good deal of bent up air will release in relief.

 

[Liberty4all]

Considering the fact we wouldn't even know that this story existed unless people went out of their way to kick and scream about how twisted the whole investigation was, fuck waiting for the justice system to decide how guilty he is. That same system nearly swept the whole fucking thing under the rug. No one has to wait for a court to give them the ok to have an opinion on this.

To be clear, I have no opinion on which narrative is true (until a court decides), as I don't believe we have all the facts of the case.

I very much have an opinion regarding the incompetent police investigation and stated that a few posts ago:

The issue of the cops not arresting him now though ... fuck that. Typical racial profiling of an investigation I think. That's a whole OTHER narrative that really needs to be fixed. It is also (I think) a part of why people are SO pissed. Black guy gets shot, light skinned guy walks without even a trial to determine guilt or innocence, that is bullshit.

 

[Dude Abides]

Stop using weight as a factor. That would get laughed out of court. I'm 210 pounds and I have no doubt that I could kick the crap out of someone that was 500 pounds. Agility, speed, and intelligence are more valuable in a fight. More than likely this is going to come down to self-defense. A good lawyer could argue that if Trayvon did in fact attack Zimmerman, he was doing so in self-defense because the dude was clearly (and admittedly) stalking him.

Yeah, that's why boxing and UFC and wrestling commissions let 200 pound dudes fight 280 pound dudes all the time. The world does not actually operate like Street Fighter.

Also, someone simply following you does not give you the right to attack them in "self-defense." Only a terrible lawyer would argue that.

 

[TheNatural]

You know what I wonder is what percentage of Democrats vs. Republicans think this should go to trial or Zimmerman should be at fault.

I checked Drudge (yeah I know) - guess what the headlines are on this stuff? First two are about NAACP leaders "exploiting" Treyvon's death. Below that is "mother to trademark dead son's name." Below that is a headline about a 'Cracker' T-shirt out in Florida. Then two quotes from what cops say happened, him decking him and slamming his head on the sidewalk and his injuries. Then "Black Panthers offer $10,000 bounty and vow militia."

Seriously? Why doesn't Drudge and the rest of these Republican places just cut the shit with the thinly veiled racism and just flat out say "N-word kid got what he deserved, poor white man a victim, as welfare mommy looks to exploit sons name for profit" because thats obviously what they're going for.

Seriously, if these fucks are going to defend this shit, why not go full bore?

 

[Onemic]

Yeah, that's why boxing and UFC and wrestling commissions let 200 pound dudes fight 280 pound dudes all the time. The world does not actually operate like Street Fighter.

Also, someone simply following you does not give you the right to attack them in "self-defense." Only a terrible lawyer would argue that.

Stalking and then chasing someone down doesn't give you the right to attack them in self defense? What?

 

[Dude Abides]

Stalking and then chasing someone down doesn't give you the right to attack them in self defense? What?

You can use force only when you have a reasonable belief that someone is imminently about to use unlawful force against you. It's right there in the statute. Someone simply following you would not fit the bill. You added "chasing someone down," and I don't know what you mean by that.

 

[K.Jack]

right. Trayvon's use of force was justified self-defense. Any force on Zimmerman's part is criminal.

The only question is to what extent? Manslaughter, 2nd degree murder, or 1st degree murder?

Reading up on some of Florida's laws, I'm leaning heavily towards aggravated manslaughter.

Read this part especially:

In all of these cases, the death must come through “culpable negligence,” which means the behavior at issue must be so careless that it rises to the level of a crime.

Fits to a tee, no?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

After being beaten to the ground by Towering Black Football Player Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman reluctantly pulls the trigger in self-defense. Martin falls back and lets loose a mighty African laugh. "So it begins!" he cries (translated from thug language).

The transponder on his wrist contacts the White House, where Operation Caliphate sits waiting.

"Your majesty," cries an aide (likely homosexual), "Agent Martin, codenamed Fire of Allah, has completed his mission!"

Imam Hussein Obama clasps his hands and smirks, a "jazz cigarette" in his mouth. "And now the honkies will pay."

Perception or not when someone is shot to death a proper investigation should be carried out. The fact that the police dept. decided to drug test the dead black kid instead of the man that murdered him tells me something. The fact that the police dept. decided to run a background check on the dead black kid instead of the man that murdered him tells me more. The fact that the police don't even arrest the man tells me all I need to know.

If their ethnic background were reversed is there ANYONE in this thread that has any doubt that dude would have been locked up by that police dept. from the start? Anyone?

Trevor Dooley tried that bullshit and didn't get away without a fucking trial....funny how that works...

+1

 

[SquiddyCracker]

After being beaten to the ground by Towering Black Football Player Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman reluctantly pulls the trigger in self-defense. Martin falls back and lets loose a mighty African laugh. "So it begins!" he cries (translated from thug language).

The transponder on his wrist contacts the White House, where Operation Caliphate sits waiting.

"Your majesty," cries an aide (likely homosexual), "Agent Martin, codenamed Fire of Allah, has completed his mission!"

Imam Hussein Obama clasps his hands and smirks, a "jazz cigarette" in his mouth. "And now the honkies will pay."

This is gold!
Archive this post, mods!

 

[Branduil]

You can use force only when you have a reasonable belief that someone is imminently about to use unlawful force against you. It's right there in the statute. Someone simply following you would not fit the bill. You added "chasing someone down," and I don't know what you mean by that.

What's the legal definition of "reasonable belief"?

 

[Dude Abides]

Fits to a tee, no?

No. Culpable negligence is when you kill someone because you're driving too fast, or you're shooting a gun in the air, or something like that.

 

[Dude Abides]

What's the legal definition of "reasonable belief"?

If a man of ordinary prudence, under the circumstances, would have believed that unlawful force was imminent.

 

[MThanded]

All that really needs to be said here is Zimmerman appointed himself head of the neighborhood watch and called 911 upwards of 40 times last year. The guy seemed to be looking for some action.

I don't know what happened that day but it was clear that he was told not to pursue and he decided he should.

 

[DaMan121]

If a man of ordinary prudence, under the circumstances, would have believed that unlawful force was imminent.

Well he would have been right, cause, you know, he is dead.

 

[Onemic]

You can use force only when you have a reasonable belief that someone is imminently about to use unlawful force against you. It's right there in the statute. Someone simply following you would not fit the bill. You added "chasing someone down," and I don't know what you mean by that.

He stalked martin and when martin got scared and started running, he got out of the car and went after him. It's all on the 911 tapes. If you're going to say that is not reasonable belief someone is about to use unlawful force, then I've got nothing else to say.

I guess if a woman is being chased down a dark alley by a man, she shouldn't do anything until he begins to try and rape her right?

 

[Baconsammy]

Yeah, that's why boxing and UFC and wrestling commissions let 200 pound dudes fight 280 pound dudes all the time. The world does not actually operate like Street Fighter.

Also, someone simply following you does not give you the right to attack them in "self-defense." Only a terrible lawyer would argue that.

What a lame analogy. In boxing, UFC etc both fighters train for a fight. How in shape is Zimmerman? How strong is he? What experience does he have as a fighter? You don't know. Weight is meaningless here.

And yeah, being stalked/hunted is reason enough to defend yourself. You should probably know the law before arguing it. Might help you stop from coming off as stupidly naive.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

After being beaten to the ground by Towering Black Football Player Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman reluctantly pulls the trigger in self-defense. Martin falls back and lets loose a mighty African laugh. "So it begins!" he cries (translated from thug language).

The transponder on his wrist contacts the White House, where Operation Caliphate sits waiting.

"Your majesty," cries an aide (likely homosexual), "Agent Martin, codenamed Fire of Allah, has completed his mission!"

Imam Hussein Obama clasps his hands and smirks, a "jazz cigarette" in his mouth. "And now the honkies will pay."

I am fucking dying right now.

 

[Dash27]

Basically I see two very distinct and opposing narratives coming out in the media concerning all of this.


Narrative #1. Trayvon, a young black youth, is walking home from store after buying bag of skittles. Racist overzealous neighborhood watch captain Zimmerman follows Trayvon, chases Tayvon down, confronts him (after being told not to by 911 operators), a scuffle ensues and Zimmerman shoots the unarmed Trayvon dead, an obvious use of excessive force.

Narrative #2. Tayvon, a troubled black youth, is walking home from store, possibly casing out some houses for future crimes. Zimmerman a well known and respected neighborhood watch captain, contacts the authorities while keeping tabs on Tayvon's location. Tayvon confronts Zimmerman, attacking and breaking Zimmerman's nose. Zimmerman is forced to fire on Tayvon in self defence shooting him dead, an obvious need to use excessive force.


Personally I'm withholding any opinion and waiting to see how the courts sort it all out. There are two VERY different stories being played out in the media right now, and without all the facts of the case it's impossible for any of us to really know what went down.

I agree with this. Both sides are going way over the top. I still feel that Zimmerman has to prove that he did nothing wrong, because at the end of the day he was armed and stalking Martin based on the 911 call he made.

But now that all this information is coming out suddenly the "facts" everyone kept bringing up are turning out to be false or exaggerated.

 

[Dude Abides]

What a lame analogy. In boxing, UFC etc both fighters train for a fight. How in shape is Zimmerman? How strong is he? What experience does he have as a fighter? You don't know. Weight is meaningless here.

And yeah, being stalked/hunted is reason enough to defend yourself. You should probably know the law before arguing it. Might help you stop from coming off as stupidly naive.

It's not an analogy. It's a statement of fact with illustrative examples. People who are heavier are generally stronger than people who are lighter. They tend to have more muscle mass and leverage. I'm surprised you find this controversial.

What you think is "reason enough to defend yourself" is not what Florida law defines as self-defense. This is what happens when people try to be Perry Mason of the internets without knowing what the fuck they're talking about.

He stalked martin and when martin got scared and started running, he got out of the car and went after him. It's all on the 911 tapes. If you're going to say that is not reasonable belief someone is about to use unlawful force, then I've got nothing else to say.

I guess if a woman is being chased down a dark alley by a man, she shouldn't do anything until he begins to try and rape her right?

I didn't say it wasn't threatening. I am using precise legal terms. Imminent unlawful force. Not just "threatening." A jury could find, depending on who they believe, that Zimmerman was not threatening imminent use of unlawful force. If, for example, if Zimmerman was saying "hey there, I just want to ask you a few questions."

I'll keep talking about the law as it applies to this particular situation, you can keep talking about rape or whatever you're on about.

 

[prwxv3]

I agree with this. Both sides are going way over the top. I still feel that Zimmerman has to prove that he did nothing wrong, because at the end of the day he was armed and stalking Martin based on the 911 call he made.

But now that all this information is coming out suddenly the "facts" everyone kept bringing up are turning out to be false or exaggerated.

This. Everyone is begging to eat crow. I remember when the Duke Lacrosse guys were 100% guilty.

This guy should be tried and if he is guilty based on the evidence then he should get punished. Making a circus of this case will only make things worse.

 

[Bollocks]

All that really needs to be said here is Zimmerman appointed himself head of the neighborhood watch and called 911 upwards of 40 times last year. The guy seemed to be looking for some action.

I don't know what happened that day but it was clear that he was told not to pursue and he decided he should.

This one always bugs me, do you get some extra privileges with being in a neighborhood watch or is it just a fancy name? Like what if he asks for id and I tell him to get lost?

 

[elrechazado]

This one always bugs me, do you get some extra privileges with being in a neighborhood watch or is it just a fancy name? Like what if he asks for id and I tell him to get lost?

Self appointed and meaningless legally. Unless florida is different.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I agree with this. Both sides are going way over the top. I still feel that Zimmerman has to prove that he did nothing wrong, because at the end of the day he was armed and stalking Martin based on the 911 call he made.

But now that all this information is coming out suddenly the "facts" everyone kept bringing up are turning out to be false or exaggerated.

Do you honestly believe that Narrative 1 and 2 are equal in extremes?

 

[remist]

All that really needs to be said here is Zimmerman appointed himself head of the neighborhood watch and called 911 upwards of 40 times last year. The guy seemed to be looking for some action.

I don't know what happened that day but it was clear that he was told not to pursue and he decided he should.

This is wrong right? I heard something like 46 calls over 8 years. 6 calls a year doesn't seem too crazy to me.

 

[Dram]

This. Everyone is begging to eat crow. I remember when the Duke Lacrosse guys were 100% guilty.

This guy should be tried and if he is guilty based on the evidence then he should get punished. Making a circus of this case will only make things worse.

Making a circus out of this case is the only reason Zimmerman might get charged with something.

 

[TheNatural]

How many times do you call 911 a year? Hell I'm not sure I've done it 6 times in my life, period.

 

[echoshifting]

This is wrong right? I heard something like 46 calls over 8 years. 6 calls a year doesn't seem too crazy to me.

Looks like a bit more than that to me.

 

[Dram]

This is wrong right? I heard something like 46 calls over 8 years. 6 calls a year doesn't seem too crazy to me.

http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-national/trayvon-martin-shooter-george-zimmerman-made-46-calls-to-911-a-year

Records reveal that George Zimmerman, who claims he shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in self-defense, made dozens of phone calls to 911 in approximately a year's time.

This revelation, reported by The Miami Herald, indicates Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, called authorities 46 times in total since Jan. 2011, regarding open windows, break-ins, disturbances and other such incidences in the area.

 

[Liberty4all]

How many times do you call 911 a year? Hell I'm not sure I've done it 6 times in my life, period.

I've called twice in my life I think. Once was a pocket call by accident.

With that said I live in a plushy condo in a nice area of downtown Toronto. I'm guessing certain locales are prone to more 911 calls than others.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Zim was really passionate about protecting the neighborhood from crime man, he has some real issues.

Profiling
Excessive force and aggression. etc.

 

[Timedog]

bjb
Banned
(Today, 01:15 PM)

Oh, how sweet it is.

 

[Devolution]

I've called twice in my life I think. Once was a pocket call by accident.

With that said I live in a plushy condo in a nice area of downtown Toronto. I'm guessing certain locales are prone to more 911 calls than others.

You might want to read up on what he made the calls about. Like an elementary school aged black kid.

 

[ffdgh]

bjb
Banned
(Today, 01:15 PM)

Oh, how sweet it is.

"victim" #3

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I don't know if this has been posted but if it's true that the police is involved then that's really shady man:

Trayvon Martin suspended for having pot at school; police allegedly leaked story

 

[echoshifting]

You might want to read up on what he made the calls about. Like an elementary school aged black kid.

I can help with that

 

[Devolution]

I can help with that

Thank you.

 

[KHarvey16]

I can help with that

This event is logged in the document you provided. The description reads:

"...is walking alone & is not supervised on busy street....concerned for well being."

 

[Devolution]

This event is logged in the document you provided. The description reads:

"...is walking alone & is not supervised on busy street....concerned for well being."

Must not feed the contrarian. Also brb calling the cops on all the kids walking home from school today. Wait I should only do it for the black children.

 

[StoppedInTracks]

This one always bugs me, do you get some extra privileges with being in a neighborhood watch or is it just a fancy name? Like what if he asks for id and I tell him to get lost?

Then you get a bullet on his watch.

 

[Liberty4all]

I can help with that

Thanks

 

[MightyHealthy]

I don't know if this has been posted but if it's true that the police is involved then that's really shady man:

Trayvon Martin suspended for having pot at school; police allegedly leaked story

Leaked by the department? What the fuck.

 

[KHarvey16]

Must not feed the contrarian. Also brb calling the cops on all the kids walking home from school today. Wait I should only do it for the black children.

You're better than that. The information was there.

 

[ErasureAcer]

So did Zimmerman ever stop any crimes from occuring as watchman or help police in any way or is the guy just a nut who picks on kids?

 

[ced]

Well, this probably is not going to help this thread any but if I don't post it someone will. Just heard on the news Trayvon's mom filed for trademarks on two different phrases in relation to Trayvon including "I am Trayvon"

Which news source?