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[OmniGamer]

Ok, i got one for you guys. If my mom/your mom got pregnant with someone other than your father, will you..still be you? Or would you never exsist becuase you are only you becuase of everything that has happened before you. Or would you still be you, but look different? I say we wouldn't exsist.

DCX

I hope you never read X-Men comics during the 90s.

 

[levious]

Ok, i got one for you guys. If my mom/your mom got pregnant with someone other than your father, will you..still be you? Or would you never exsist becuase you are only you becuase of everything that has happened before you. Or would you still be you, but look different? I say we wouldn't exsist.

DCX

I think you were seeing the events differently than most... Connor's father was always the guy from the future. Although it's hard to say that there is only ONE timeline, since things were changed when the arm of the first terminator was left behind.

 

[DCX]

Actually no i haven't Hold on though i heard something about Bishop or Cable being somebodies kid...sounded stupid to me...

DCX

 

[tedtropy]

It's not a true plot hole, but to me, the idea that the pre-cogs would ever be used for benevolent purposes surprised me... and that they were completely set free at the end. The ability to forsee the future (even if not 100% accurate) is extremely useful in other areas as well. Frankly, I would have expected the entire thing to become a black op, but even without that, you could keep the pre-cogs near a prison with capital punishment, then always kill the inmates near a newspaper, stock report, or whatever. That way, you could prevent the day's disasters (if benevolent), or control the economy, etc.

That's certainly the way it would've worked out in the real world (well, real sci-fi world), but of course Spielberg had to tack on his usual happy-happy-feel-good ending, even if it was pretty out of place in such a noir film. Minority Report's one of my favorite sci-fi flicks (up there with Robocop), but it's definately got its share of problems.

 

[Goreomedy]

Ted, that has been the counterpoint offered to me by many I've debated with over MR plotholes. That the whole point of the film is that the process is flawed, and so, cannot be relied upon.

Then nothing we were told about the Precog's abilities can be trusted? And that means every point of exposition that was contradicted in the film should be excused? Sorry, but I can't let a lazy script go that easy.

The film opens with a Red Ball (crime of passion) case: the man who catches his wife cheating on him. The Pre-Crime unit has just a few minutes to find out where this murder is going to occur in order to stop it. So, we can gather from this, that pre-cogs can only see Red Ball murders just before they happen.

Anderton's case ball, however, was Brown: A pre-meditated murder that would go down in 72 hours. The problem with this, Anderton didn't KNOW Crow. And, as we discover later, he only decided to kill Crow after he learned that Crow was a pedophile who had murdered his son. It should have been a crime of passion. A red ball. And it would only have dropped at the Pre-Crime unit moments before Crow was shot.

I'm supposed to believe that Von Sydow could manipulate this system into dropping a Brown Ball case that would tip off Anderton to Crow's location, which was supposed to lead to a passion of Crime that the system wouldn't recognize, then ended with a suicide which the Pre-cogs aren't supposed to see in the first place?

That goes beyond proving a film's point, into laughable convolution and betrayal of all the film's rules.

 

[DCX]

I think you were seeing the events differently than most... Connor's father was always the guy from the future. Although it's hard to say that there is only ONE timeline, since things were changed when the arm of the first terminator was left behind.

That's part 2. Dyson used the arm and the CPU to further his thinking and research for SkyNet etc. If he never had the arm and CPU wouldn't you think things could have been different? I understand changing the future...but you saying John's father was always someone from the future...then John's real father really isn't Reese, until Reese change that when he went back...lol my head hurts.

DCX

 

[LakeEarth]

Actually no i haven't Hold on though i heard something about Bishop or Cable being somebodies kid...sounded stupid to me...

DCX

Cable is Scott and Jean Summers kid, infected by the Apocolypse virus and sent into the future. Very complicated stuff, lets not get into it here.

 

[DCX]

Cable is Scott and Jean Summers kid, infected by the Apocalypse virus and sent into the future. Very complicated stuff, lets not get into it here.

Really?? Holy...man you need to get me some more info, the other day i read a long ass bio on wolverine, boy that man traveled

DCX

 

[tedtropy]

Ted, that has been the counterpoint offered to me by many I've debated with over MR plotholes. That the whole point of the film is that the process is flawed, and so, cannot be relied upon.

Then nothing we were told about the Precog's abilities can be trusted? And that means every point of exposition that was contradicted in the film should be excused? Sorry, but I can't let a lazy script go that easy.

The film opens with a Red Ball (crime of passion) case: the man who catches his wife cheating on him. The Pre-Crime unit has just a few minutes to find out where this murder is going to occur in order to stop it. So, we can gather from this, that pre-cogs can only see Red Ball murders just before they happen.

Anderton's case ball, however, was Brown: A pre-meditated murder that would go down in 72 hours. The problem with this, Anderton didn't KNOW Crow. And, as we discover later, he only decided to kill Crow after he learned that Crow was a pedophile who had murdered his son. It should have been a crime of passion. A red ball. And it would only have dropped at the Pre-Crime unit moments before Crow was shot.

I'm supposed to believe that Von Sydow could manipulate this system into dropping a Brown Ball case that would tip off Anderton to Crow's location, which was supposed to lead to a passion of Crime that the system wouldn't recognize, then ended with a suicide which the Pre-cogs aren't supposed to see in the first place?

That goes beyond proving a film's point, into laughable convolution and betrayal of all the film's rules.

I wasn't trying to say that the indefinite nature of the pre-cogs’ predictions negate the film's plot holes/problems, just that it may explain the one issue you mentioned. In a closed environment, the pre-cogs abilities are not flawed, it's only when a member of the party involved in the crime being predicted sees the visions that it becomes a problem. Since humans are invariably involved in the pre-crime process and since humans are ultimately power-hungry and corrupt, the system was flawed from the get-go. The movie itself was flawed via some poor writing. I agree with you, the film has some definite plot issues, but I think it raises some interesting moral and ethical questions, and I'm assuming that was the whole point of it to begin with.

 

[levious]

That's part 2. Dyson used the arm and the CPU to further his thinking and research for SkyNet etc. If he never had the arm and CPU wouldn't you think things could have been different? I understand changing the future...but you saying John's father was always someone from the future...then John's real father really isn't Reese, until Reese change that when he went back...lol my head hurts.

DCX

I'd say, by itself, Reese being his father makes sense, but combined with the arm thing changing the future, it all goes to the shitter.

My point was, Reese didn't change anything, he was supposed to go back and bed Hamilton... but it does not jive unless the whole mythos is based on an unchangeble timeline, which in my mind it isn't.

 

[OmniGamer]

Actually no i haven't Hold on though i heard something about Bishop or Cable being somebodies kid...sounded stupid to me...

DCX

Cable is the son of Scott Summers, and Madelyne Pryor(clone of Jean Grey created by Mr. Sinister), as a baby, he was infected by Apocalypse with the techno-organic virus, which was sure to kill him, but a woman from 2,000 years in the future named Askani was sent back in time to take the child into the future to help him control the virus, because he(cable) was destined to defeat Apocalypse(he ruled that future). Somewhere during that time in the future, Rachel Summers(daughter of Scott Summers and the real Jean Grey, however this was an alternate future), having been sucked into a timestream, ended up in Cable's future, and was actually the one that sent Askani back in time to save cable, yanked Scott and Jean to that future, where they raised Cable for 12 years, helping him use his powers to control the T-O virus that was ravaging his body. Eventually, Cable came back to "our" time, as an adult, older than his real parents.

....yay.

 

[DCX]

I'd say, by itself, Reese being his father makes sense, but combined with the arm thing changing the future, it all goes to the shitter.

My point was, Reese didn't change anything, he was supposed to go back and bed Hamilton... but it does not jive unless the whole mythos is based on an unchangeble timeline, which in my mind it isn't.

Agreed!

DCX

 

[Goreomedy]

I wasn't trying to say that the indefinite nature of the pre-cogs’ predictions negate the film's plot holes/problems, just that it may explain the one issue you mentioned. In a closed environment, the pre-cogs abilities are not flawed, it's only when a member of the party involved in the crime being predicted sees the visions that it becomes a problem. Since humans are invariably involved in the pre-crime process and since humans are ultimately power-hungry and corrupt, the system was flawed from the get-go. The movie itself was flawed via some poor writing. I agree with you, the film has some definite plot issues, but I think it raises some interesting moral and ethical questions, and I'm assuming that was the whole point of it to begin with.

That's why I feel so strongly about the script's flaws. If not for them, the film could have been great.

It was certainly timely. And the vision of the future, of technology, was excellent and utterly convincing.

 

[DCX]

Cable is the son of Scott Summers, and Madelyne Pryor(clone of Jean Grey created by Mr. Sinister), as a baby, he was infected by Apocalypse with the techno-organic virus, which was sure to kill him, but a woman from 2,000 years in the future named Askani was sent back in time to take the child into the future to help him control the virus, because he(cable) was destined to defeat Apocalypse(he ruled that future). Somewhere during that time in the future, Rachel Summers(daughter of Scott Summers and the real Jean Grey, however this was an alternate future), having been sucked into a timestream, ended up in Cable's future, and was actually the one that sent Askani back in time to save cable, yanked Scott and Jean to that future, where they raised Cable for 12 years, helping him use his powers to control the T-O virus that was ravaging his body. Eventually, Cable came back to "our" time, as an adult, older than his real parents.

....yay.

OMFG!!! Now that's a web. Sounds...complicated i'll do some research tonight on this. Poor Scott...hold on Scott didn't get Jean Gray pregnant then, he got a clone pregnant? So he cheated on Jean? Well maybe not, a clone is still the person just a copy...hmmmm....if i cloned a gf, i could have a threesome with my gf x2 Nice

DCX

 

[OmniGamer]

PM me if you want more details

 

[Acrylamid]

Back to the Future 2.
When Marty Mc Fly travelled to the future, how could he meet an older version of himself? Wasn't he technically missing for the last 30 years (1985-2015)? The 2015-version must have lived for the last 30 years in this timeline - but at this time, how should the time continuum have "known" that Marty later went back to 1985 and lived his normal life? He could have stayed in the future, as well, or could have lived until the rest of his life in the 14th century...

 

[Bregor]

That's part 2. Dyson used the arm and the CPU to further his thinking and research for SkyNet etc. If he never had the arm and CPU wouldn't you think things could have been different? I understand changing the future...but you saying John's father was always someone from the future...then John's real father really isn't Reese, until Reese change that when he went back...lol my head hurts.

DCX

Look it's really simple. John's father is Reese. John's father always was Reese. There never was an 'original' father of John that Reese replaced.

So:
1. Reese and Sarah have sex, Sarah gets pregnant.
2. Sarah tells John about who his father is.
3. John meets Reese during the war against Skynet, and recognizes that this is the man who will be his father. Knowing that Reese and Sarah will someday have an important relationship, he talks to Reese extensively about Sarah, and gives him a picture of her.
4. John is successful enough against Skynet to make it attempt to kill him by sending a Terminator into the past. Ironically, this gives the pretext for sending back Reese which leads to the birth of John Connor instead of his death. (Go back to #1)

The cause and effect relationship is circular, but there is nothing flawed in such a chain of events if time travel is involved.

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

My problem with Minority Report is that they had a happy ending. Remember when they say the captured killers dream of a better life, or something like that? You could say that everything that happens after he is captured is his dream, and not real. Too bad the moviemakers (spielberg's lame ass) didn't go that route.

 

[Warm Machine]

The entire concept of Minority Report is that the pre-cogs are seeing the future. They report based upon what they see. If they pick up something that seems to be a crime of passion they drop that ball. If it seems premeditated they drop another ball.

Because they see the future the way they do, the strings which connect the present to the future are connected only because of the way the future invariably turns out within a margin of error.

If they saw the whole and complete future they would see that the murders were stopped by their own police before the murder ever could have happened. That is the entire point of the film.

 

[Ryck]

Back to the Future 2.
When Marty Mc Fly travelled to the future, how could he meet an older version of himself? Wasn't he technically missing for the last 30 years (1985-2015)? The 2015-version must have lived for the last 30 years in this timeline - but at this time, how should the time continuum have "known" that Marty later went back to 1985 and lived his normal life? He could have stayed in the future, as well, or could have lived until the rest of his life in the 14th century...

Also in part three Marty goes to the old west and is being chased by Indians....the Deloreans fuel line is ripped which prevents the car from running.......Doc says that Mr fusion ( the device in the back that replaced the plutunium tank) only powers the time circuits and that the car has always run on normal gas.....well in part 1 , he can't drive or start the car because the plutunium tank is empty....he barely gets it to start at the end (sheer luck I imagine) and then gets back to 1985 where again the car dies due to lack of fuel......(plutunium sp)

 

[DaveH]

Terminator question... why do they only send one Terminator only every few years? I suppose you could argue, they do because they did, but that's a circular non-answer that doesn't explain the rationale. Why not send several Terminators at once or have them all arrive shortly after each other?

I used to always have this question when watching Power Rangers... why didn't Rita send a bunch of mosters to places other than Angel Grove all at once?

 

[levious]

In the movie Surprise! with Nikki Dial... the movie opens with Dial's character and her roommate having sex, then the roommate leaves for a weekend trip during which her friends give her a surprise birthday party and pay for a boob job for her. The roommate returns from her trip and shows her chest off to Dial, then they partake in a threesome with some random dude that was there visiting Dial. I know of no breast augmentation from which a woman can recover in mere days.

 

[Warm Machine]

Terminator question... why do they only send one Terminator only every few years? I suppose you could argue, they do because they did, but that's a circular non-answer that doesn't explain the rationale. Why not send several Terminators at once or have them all arrive shortly after each other?

I used to always have this question when watching Power Rangers... why didn't Rita send a bunch of mosters to places other than Angel Grove all at once?

That was covered. Skynet was essentially beaten and it was a last ditch effort by them. As soon as the machines realize that they didn't win the first time due to the unmovable nature of the timeline, they tried again...and again. It could also be that sending something back in time took considerable resources and energy to do.

As far as Reese and the protector T-800(s) going back the rebellion had all the time they needed after they took over the complex. The Rebellion probably went in there and realized what the machines did, saw that it didn't work because of who they were supposed to send, and then did what they had to...over and over again.

Though, it can be said that because of the events of the extended T2 ending or Terminator 3 that because of Judgement day's date passing by or changing that there must be a way to change the future.

 

[OmniGamer]

Terminator question... why do they only send one Terminator only every few years? I suppose you could argue, they do because they did, but that's a circular non-answer that doesn't explain the rationale. Why not send several Terminators at once or have them all arrive shortly after each other?

I used to always have this question when watching Power Rangers... why didn't Rita send a bunch of mosters to places other than Angel Grove all at once?

Or better yet, why can't they go back further in time, before cars and tanks and guns. Kill John's great great(...) grandparents while they are picking berries or something.

Power Rangers, lol..."Buildings destroyed....no one was hurt"[/news report]

 

[Warm Machine]

Or better yet, why can't they go back further in time, before cars and tanks and guns. Kill John's great great(...) grandparents while they are picking berries or something.

Power Rangers, lol..."Buildings destroyed....no one was hurt"[/news report]

Probably because the farther you go back the more risk you have of changing the outcome of the future even if the mission is successful.

 

[FoneBone]

T2 - The August 29th date, which isn't mentioned at all in the first movie. The inorganic T-1000 being able to travel back in time. The T-1000 trying to force Sarah to call for John, instead of just morphing into her. And there's the issue of the T-1000's abilities (touching people's shoes is enough to let it morph into them?).

Battlefield Earth and LXG have loads of gaping plot holes, but I'm not going to try to list them.

 

[MrPing1000]

They explain the no future guns in the first 2 movies. The only way a weapon could get through if it were surrounded by living tissue. Hence the reason why the Terminators were able to go back in time. Reese could have brought a plasma rifle back with him had he buried it inside his body.

Sarah asked Reese why he couldn't bring a gun with him. He tells her that the metal cant go through. But the terminator is metal but surrounded by tissue. He cud have wrapped a gun in pig skin, or if it really has to be living tissue stick it in a dog or something

 

[OmniGamer]

Probably because the farther you go back the more risk you have of changing the outcome of the future even if the mission is successful.

Change is change is change. Anyway, this reminds me of the simpsons, the time travel toaster episode. When he affected the most in the past, it had the best outcome in the future.

I still think the TX should have killed John's future wife right when she could. So what if she suddenly realized John was near...if she kills her, then she can't give send the T-100 back in time(it was her that sent it this time right?). Or if not, at the least if she's dead, he can't listen to her and if he can't protect her, doesn't that render his program objective useless?

 

[Bregor]

Or better yet, why can't they go back further in time, before cars and tanks and guns. Kill John's great great(...) grandparents while they are picking berries or something.

Power Rangers, lol..."Buildings destroyed....no one was hurt"[/news report]

Skynet didn't know John Conner's family tree, it only knew that his mother's name was Sarah Conner, and that she lived in LA in the time in question. That's why the first Terminator was killing every Sarah Conner in LA.

To be sure of killing Sarah's parents, Skynet would have to kill a huge number of Conner's. (And she might have been adopted.)

 

[Archaix]

I'm disappointed that nobody has come up with this as a response to DCX's question yet

One of the major problems encountered in time travel is not that of becoming your own father or mother. There is no problem in becoming your own father or mother that a broad-minded and well-adjusted family can't cope with. There is no problem with changing the course of history—the course of history does not change because it all fits together like a jigsaw. All the important changes have happened before the things they were supposed to change and it all sorts itself out in the end.

 

[OmniGamer]

Skynet didn't know John Conner's family tree, it only knew that his mother's name was Sarah Conner, and that she lived in LA in the time in question. That's why the first Terminator was killing every Sarah Conner in LA.

To be sure of killing Sarah's parents, Skynet would have to kill a huge number of Conner's. (And she might have been adopted.)

I love this...time travel is possible, but a lil research isn't . And obviously, terminators improve...T1's Terminator<T2's<T3's...T3's TX could analyze DNA via tasting blood.

 

[Bregor]

I love this...time travel is possible, but a lil research isn't . And obviously, terminators improve...T1's Terminator<T2's<T3's...T3's TX could analyze DNA via tasting blood.

You know, there was a nuclear war- a few records might have been lost.

 

[Prince of Space]

Godzilla can outrun all those marine helicopters, but he can't catch a NY taxi?

 

[Archaix]

Godzilla can outrun all those marine helicopters, but he can't catch a NY taxi?

I don't know what you're talking about, but I'm picturing Gozilla trying to wave down a cab because it's raining and he has a long way to walk.

And it's going to stay that way.

 

[OmniGamer]

You know, there was a nuclear war- a few records might have been lost.

I'm talking about researching records once being in the past, not in the war-torn future.

 

[Bregor]

I'm talking about researching records once being in the past, not in the war-torn future.

And the Terminators did this once they reached the past. Every one of them used different methods to attempt to look up and track down their prey. But once they have been sent back in time, there is no point in looking up records from an even earlier era- they don't have the means to go back further.

 

[Phoenix]

Almost ALL of the LOST IN SPACE movie

Why is it in the future world the spaceship has moved a good chunk of distance geography wise when it supposebly couldn't move at all. It should be in the exact same place it was before...though of course then we couldn't have the blob thing they have to go into or whatever.

Nice one - though perhaps they found some way to get off the ground temporarily.

 

[Ghost]

Any film with Sean connery where he doesnt play a scotsman, ie every film with sean connery...the worst offenders are..

Runt for Red October: Everyone knows when your english playing russian you av to speavk like dis!

Highlander: "Hello im an spanish egyptian alien with a thick scotish accent" 'nuff said

 

[OmniGamer]

And the Terminators did this once they reached the past. Every one of them used different methods to attempt to look up and track down their prey. But once they have been sent back in time, there is no point in looking up records from an even earlier era- they don't have the means to go back further.

Stick it in a jar and bury it deep at some pre-determined coordinate to be retrieved in the future and given to a new terminator so it can go back further and fuck up some Connors.

 

[Warm Machine]

One of the dumbest things I have yet seen in a movie, plot hole or not was in the Planet of the Apes remake. When dude goes forward in time, in a spaceship not built for time travel, the clock and calendar changes to reveal WHEN he ends up. With this sort of reasoning my wristwatch would do the same if I managed to go forward in time. A clock unto itself cannot tell what time and date it is.

 

[levious]

Highlander: "Hello im an spanish egyptian alien with a thick scotish accent" 'nuff said

his character was so old and well-traveled that he had developed the perfect sounding voice... which just happened to be scottish.

 

[Warm Machine]

Sarah asked Reese why he couldn't bring a gun with him. He tells her that the metal cant go through. But the terminator is metal but surrounded by tissue. He cud have wrapped a gun in pig skin, or if it really has to be living tissue stick it in a dog or something

I doubt that based on what was going on at the time in the future they were able to think that fast or organize something like that. They also mention "Living Tissue" not dead tissue which would constitute a dead dog. That and the gun would probably have to be sent seperatly ending up god knows where. If it were a simple matter of dropping someone in the same place as the previous thing sent back they probably would have done that.

 

[DCX]

Look it's really simple. John's father is Reese. John's father always was Reese. There never was an 'original' father of John that Reese replaced.

So:
1. Reese and Sarah have sex, Sarah gets pregnant.
2. Sarah tells John about who his father is.
3. John meets Reese during the war against Skynet, and recognizes that this is the man who will be his father. Knowing that Reese and Sarah will someday have an important relationship, he talks to Reese extensively about Sarah, and gives him a picture of her.
4. John is successful enough against Skynet to make it attempt to kill him by sending a Terminator into the past. Ironically, this gives the pretext for sending back Reese which leads to the birth of John Connor instead of his death. (Go back to #1)

The cause and effect relationship is circular, but there is nothing flawed in such a chain of events if time travel is involved.

I would believe this if Reese wasn't from the future but if John sent Reese back to basically impgnate his mom so he can survive? How the f+*& does he exsist without these events playing out as they are? How is John alive if Reese is his father. After Reese has sex with Sarah then ok sure, we all know Reese is the dad...but before is the key word here.

DCX

 

[Grizzlyjin]

I would believe this if Reese wasn't from the future but if John sent Reese back to basically impgnate his mom so he can survive? How the f+*& does he exsist without these events playing out as they are? How is John alive if Reese is his father. After Reese has sex with Sarah then ok sure, we all know Reese is the dad...but before is the key word here.

DCX

Well you could start thinking about seperate timelines...but I know what you mean.
There has to be a time where he had no reason to go back, because John wasn't born. I know how you feel exactly.

 

[OmniGamer]

Think of time as a loop instead of a straight line.

 

[jett]

A winner is you!

I'm not being sarcastic either. Especially considering that Christopher Lambert will be taking on the role of Connor Macloud in Highlander: The Source.

What the fuck? Another Highlander movie? BLEH.

 

[DCX]

Think of time as a loop instead of a straight line.

Well, it's not so much time...it's circumstances...a tree, is a tree, is a tree but a human is VERy specific especially when this said human IS the key to Judgment Day. Time being a loop? I don't know...time travel is hard to even try to figure out, but still there has to be some fundamentals to time travel. Kinda like the fundamentals in other things in movies like Vampires with the holy water and sunlight, Werewolfs and silver bullets etc. In time travel i believe if you mess something up in the past the future would have to change...wether or not it's a huge change or sbtle...change is the key.

If you kill someone in the past, than we all agree his existence from the future is null and void...so you understand how i feel about Reese being John's dad. I NEED an answer!!! Time to use the power of the internet to find my answers.

DCX

 

[Lord Error]

T2 - The August 29th date, which isn't mentioned at all in the first movie.

I don't think that's a big deal, though...?

The inorganic T-1000 being able to travel back in time.

But he can reformat it's surface to mimic organic matter.

The T-1000 trying to force Sarah to call for John, instead of just morphing into her.

And there's the issue of the T-1000's abilities (touching people's shoes is enough to let it morph into them?).

These two are good ones. Especially the last one seems to be there just for the plan wow factor in the scene, and not really thought through.

 

[Warm Machine]

The shoe thing is probably due to the sensors on the outside of the t-1000's skin being able to tell the weight and volume of the person and their clothes as opposed to just mimicking the person by seeing them which may be innacurate.

 

[Justin Bailey]

My problem with Minority Report is that they had a happy ending. Remember when they say the captured killers dream of a better life, or something like that? You could say that everything that happens after he is captured is his dream, and not real. Too bad the moviemakers (spielberg's lame ass) didn't go that route.

Yeah, but you could still interpret it as such. They give a subtle hint towards that in the movie when the guy tells Anderton that "All your dreams can come true" right before he goes under. Spielberg doesn't spell it out for us or anything, but there's nothing saying that it didn't happen that way.