• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Favorite Movie Plotholes

Status
Not open for further replies.
In order to believe Minority Report ended in Tom Cruise's dreams, we have to believe that he narrates his dreams, as that is how the movie ended, with narration. How many people do play by play voiceovers for their dreams? :)

Minority Report does nothing with its supposed moral questions it raises. It is a murder mystery with delusions of grandeur. What I don't get is why a ball didn't come down the little gumball machine thing with the villain's name on it. A ball comes down each time, right? The movie needed a scene with him whistling in front of the ball chute, and reaching out and saying "yoink" as he slipped it into his pocket.
 

Saturnman

Banned
DCX said:
Well, it's not so much time...it's circumstances...a tree, is a tree, is a tree but a human is VERy specific especially when this said human IS the key to Judgment Day. Time being a loop? I don't know...time travel is hard to even try to figure out, but still there has to be some fundamentals to time travel. Kinda like the fundamentals in other things in movies like Vampires with the holy water and sunlight, Werewolfs and silver bullets etc. In time travel i believe if you mess something up in the past the future would have to change...wether or not it's a huge change or sbtle...change is the key.

If you kill someone in the past, than we all agree his existence from the future is null and void...so you understand how i feel about Reese being John's dad. I NEED an answer!!! Time to use the power of the internet to find my answers.

DCX

The problem is that you assume time travel works in pre-established rules when there are none. It's science fiction and it's a particular area where anybody can set his own rules to fit his story. Terminator 1 sees time travel in a loop, in that logic, it makes perfect sense. That's the beauty of it.

If you want to find plot holes in Terminator, look at the sequels that take a lot of liberties with the rules set in the first movie.
 

Archaix

Drunky McMurder
DCX said:
Well, it's not so much time...it's circumstances...a tree, is a tree, is a tree but a human is VERy specific especially when this said human IS the key to Judgment Day. Time being a loop? I don't know...time travel is hard to even try to figure out, but still there has to be some fundamentals to time travel. Kinda like the fundamentals in other things in movies like Vampires with the holy water and sunlight, Werewolfs and silver bullets etc. In time travel i believe if you mess something up in the past the future would have to change...wether or not it's a huge change or sbtle...change is the key.

If you kill someone in the past, than we all agree his existence from the future is null and void...so you understand how i feel about Reese being John's dad. I NEED an answer!!! Time to use the power of the internet to find my answers.

DCX

Why do you keep assuming that somebody else was supposed to be his father? Reese was always John Conner's dad. It was never going to be anybody different. That was always the plan time had. He would be sent back from the future(by his son, who was born because of this action, but born nonetheless) to make baby John. That's all there is.
 

Saturnman

Banned
Warm Machine said:
T2 uses the same rules as the original if you never see the extended ending with Sarah Connor as an old woman.

No, because they try to alter the future in a way that would never lead to Skynet, thus no construction of the time machine and no John Connor (by sending Reese to protect and impregnate his mother). T1 had a time loop where the past and future were one. T2 introduces separate time lines.
 

DCX

DCX
Archaix said:
Why do you keep assuming that somebody else was supposed to be his father? Reese was always John Conner's dad. It was never going to be anybody different. That was always the plan time had. He would be sent back from the future(by his son, who was born because of this action, but born nonetheless) to make baby John. That's all there is.
Read your post over and over and realize why i'm frustrated :)

DCX
 
Saturnman said:
No, because they try to alter the future in a way that would never lead to Skynet, thus no construction of the time machine and no John Connor (by sending Reese to protect and impregnate his mother). T1 had a time loop where the past and future were one. T2 introduces separate time lines.

They TRY to change the future by blowing up Cyberdyne. Their actions never actually are shown to have been succesful. At the end of the film where we see the shot of the road Sarah says that for the first time she has hope. She doesn't say that they have changed the future.

It is Terminator 3 that actually breaks the loop principal because the day and date for Judgement Day is actually moved.
 

Justin Bailey

------ ------
Mega Man's Electric Sheep said:
In order to believe Minority Report ended in Tom Cruise's dreams, we have to believe that he narrates his dreams, as that is how the movie ended, with narration. How many people do play by play voiceovers for their dreams? :)
Hmmm, well what if you're dreaming that you're telling a story and you can see the events happening as you tell it? It could also just be use of artistic license just so the audience can get more information.
 
How 'bout that movie Red Rider or something.

Basically some biker guy goes back to western time and meets up with this woman.
The woman happens to be his grandmother and he gives her his necklace that he says he got from his grandmother.

So at what point in time was the necklace ever made?
 

-=DoAvl=-

Member
Here's a goodie!

40days and 40nights... That movie is so bs! Where da hell do you find a web dev studio with hot guys n chicks as employees! NO WAY!


On the terminator issue, I think T3 was the one that made it all make sense to me. I think the general point they were trying to get at was, no matter how hard you try, shit is gonna happen, so you might as well prepare for it. Much like that other movie... errr.... shit, can't remember. Damn.. I really can't remember.. allz I remember is that some dude goes "Won't I affect the things in the past?" and another dude goes "It doesn't matter" or something along the lines of you being an insignificant player in the grand scheme of things... Actually, I remember the example he used was that if you planned to go back in time to kill your grandpa, there are so many factors that would prevent you from doing it.. like someone seeing you n stopping you or you not being able to pull the trigger at that moment. Now that I think about it, it might have been a book that I had read.... errr...

Anyway!....
 

Bregor

Member
Saturnman said:
Reese is John Connor's father. Always was.

Just accept it, DCX!

Exactly. Reese going back in time didn't change anything. He didn't replace John Connors 'original' father because there is no 'original' father of John Connor to replace. The historical fact is that Reese is John Connor's father, and always was.
 

teiresias

Member
DCX, I sure hope you never played ChronoTrigger, because you'd kill yourself over that plot if you don't understand the relatively simple timeline loop involved in Terminator and Terminator 2. Terminator 3, IMO, was grafted onto the plot and introduces plotholes (though maybe some quantum mechanical argument can be made for it, which is basically what happens with ChronoCross, but I think that story is sufficiently a "side story" to not completely introduce mega plotholes into CT, but it's been so long since I played either that I can't remember now). In any case, here's a nice little picture I threw together in an attempt to illustrate the loop in Terminator 1. Terminator 1 contains a single time loop where, from the adult John's point of view anyway, the effect precedes the cause, because as far as he's concerned he hasn't sent Reese through time. Since he sends Reese to the past though, his current actions have already affected the timeline. For simplicity I'll assume Reese and John are the same age and born at roughly the same time just so I have less points to draw:

T1Timeline.jpg


Of course, this is simplified. When Terminator 2 happens there is some kind of quantum reality split when they disrupt Dyson's work. Of course, it can be argued that they should have known they didn't stop Judgment Day when John didn't vanish into thin air because there was obviously some way in which Reese still came back, unless, you consider past events on one timeline fixed without regard to whether that timeline splits in the future.
 
"Hmmm, well what if you're dreaming that you're telling a story and you can see the events happening as you tell it? It could also just be use of artistic license just so the audience can get more information."


Well, there's also the camera swooping around overhead the cabin of the precogs. I don't think his character would be seein those events. And what I hated about the movie was that they tried too hard to give the audience information. They told us the explanation to the story, and then they immediately told us AGAIN. It was condescending.
 

DCX

DCX
T1Timeline.jpg



Hmmm...it's interesting that John and Reese being born at the same time...thus making it possible for Reese and John to be around the same age...ok, I'll buy that. The only thing that bothers me is how John from the current time is born without him essentially sending his father back in time to basically create himself. I can understand or accept the "loop" I'm just stuck on the fact that there has to be a beginning to the loop, your loop has us starting on step 2 rather than 1 or 0 for that matter, everything esle makes sense 3-whatever on the loop...hence the "plot hole" Don't mind me, I'm stubborn.

I have played Chrono Trigger but at the time i played i didn't think as i do now. I accepted what was presented to me because that's how it was suppose to be...as i guess i should with this...it's like this becuase...*drum roll* "That's how it ws written" LOL

Also the loop would be kinda impossible if Reese dies before he was born :p Argh!!!!!

DCX
 

-=DoAvl=-

Member
T1Timeline.jpg


Even though this time loop thingy makes sense to me, i still have arguments with my christian friends about the chicken and the egg. HMMMMMM!
 

teiresias

Member
I'm just stuck on the fact that there has to be a beginning to the loop, your loop has us starting on step 2 rather than 1 or 0 for that matter, everything esle makes sense 3-whatever on the loop...hence the "plot hole" Don't mind me, I'm stubborn.

One could argue that the loop is "established" when John sends Reese back in time, but one could also argue that it's established when Reese impregnates Sarah (the fact that John knows that Reese is his father complicates the matter).

Also the loop would be kinda impossible if Reese dies before he was born :p Argh!!!!!

You're not getting this at all. The fact that Reese dies prior to his birth along the timeline means nothing to the fact that he's born. I was born in May of 1979, which means my mother had to get pregnant sometime in August of 1978 or thereabouts. If, in five years when I'm 30 years old, I were to travel back in time to August of 1978 and get killed while I'm there, that doesn't change the fact that my mom gets pregnant and then gives birth to me 9 months later. If I travel back in time to January of 1979 - at which point my mom is already pregnant - and I get killed while I'm there that still doesn't change the fact that in five months my mom is going to give birth to me. I really don't see what's so complicated about this.

P.S. - Stay far away from the movie "12 Monkeys"!! :)
 
I still maintain that T1 and T2's plot line contain a time thread whereby the past present and future all take place at the same time. The present exists only because the future exists and the future exists only because the present exists etc etc.

Once again it doesn't matter that in T2 Dyson's work was destroyed and he died. There was never a moment in T2 that stated that the future was actually changed. All that we know is what we are told by the Terminator when he returns to save John. We can assume that what the Terminator knows is either false or purposefully misleading. If the future turns out the way it did BECAUSE Dyson destroys his work and subsequently dies the machines would strive to make that happen. Actually when you look at it like that, it is a succesful move by the machines and adds depth that wouldn't ordinarily be there (not that I think it was done on purpose).
 

Phoenix

Member
DCX said:
T1Timeline.jpg



Hmmm...it's interesting that John and Reese being born at the same time...thus making it possible for Reese and John to be around the same age...ok, I'll buy that. The only thing that bothers me is how John from the current time is born without him essentially sending his father back in time to basically create himself. I can understand or accept the "loop" I'm just stuck on the fact that there has to be a beginning to the loop, your loop has us starting on step 2 rather than 1 or 0 for that matter, everything esle makes sense 3-whatever on the loop...hence the "plot hole" Don't mind me, I'm stubborn.

I have played Chrono Trigger but at the time i played i didn't think as i do now. I accepted what was presented to me because that's how it was suppose to be...as i guess i should with this...it's like this becuase...*drum roll* "That's how it ws written" LOL

Also the loop would be kinda impossible if Reese dies before he was born :p Argh!!!!!

DCX

The problem is that you view time with 4 dimensional contraints where one thing should lead to another and nothing from the future can effect the past. Iff time travel is possible then people from the future could be in the past doing things that create the future in which they lived. Its a simple causal paradox (which T3 tried to touch on but in the interim just broke everything) - you can't change the past because the past brought you to the future that you are trying to change. As such the past cannot be effected by time travel and the attempts of the folks in T3 and of Skynet is futile - neither has the ability to change the past - or else it would have been changed and the future in which they wanted to change it would not exist.... or so the theory goes.

As for whether or not time travel is 'real' - if we discover that worm holes are real, more than likely time travel is real as well. For more information of these concepts and others related to string field theory visit mkaku.org. The more we learn, the more probable these things appear.
 

Saturnman

Banned
You shouldn't because he will send him. It's like fate created him and guided his actions (knowledge of the future, of his father and what he will do) ensuring that his mother will be impregnated in the past and he will be born. No one is asking you to accept it as scientific fact, it's just how the story works. What is so hard to understand?
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Mega Man's Electric Sheep said:
What I don't get is why a ball didn't come down the little gumball machine thing with the villain's name on it. A ball comes down each time, right? The movie needed a scene with him whistling in front of the ball chute, and reaching out and saying "yoink" as he slipped it into his pocket.
You mean with regard to the murder of Colin Farrell's character? Anderton had taken Agatha by that point, and they did say that she was the strongest of the three, so I'd assume that's how it'd be explained that no premonition was made about that murder. If I recall, and I haven't seen the movie in a while, there was actually a conversation about how the other two would be relatively useless without Agatha that took place right after Anderton flushed himself along with Agatha out of the room.
 
"You mean with regard to the murder of Colin Farrell's character? Anderton had taken Agatha by that point, and they did say that she was the strongest of the three, so I'd assume that's how it'd be explained that no premonition was made about that murder. If I recall, and I haven't seen the movie in a while, there was actually a conversation about how the other two would be relatively useless without Agatha that took place right after Anderton flushed himself along with Agatha out of the room."


No, I'm referring to the murder when he was disguised or whatever. I don't remember the exact details, but I remember wondering how the disguise would stop the ball with his name on it.
 

Bregor

Member
DCX said:
I'm just stuck on the fact that there has to be a beginning to the loop

Why do you think that? There is absolutely no reason why a time loop has to have a point considered the beginning. Asking how it could happen without Reese being sent back in time is pointless: it DID happen, so why worry about how things would have worked out if it didn't happen?
 

DCX

DCX
LOL...i saw 12 Monkeys and loved it and had no problem with it :) I'm having a problem with John's "Adam/Eve" complex where he essentially was created ORIGINALLY from dust :) Then with the loop through Reese.

PS- I better stop before you guys would want to assassinate me...

DCX
 

Citainus

Member
DCX said:
LOL...i saw 12 Monkeys and loved it and had no problem with it :) I'm having a problem with John's "Adam/Eve" complex where he essentially was created ORIGINALLY from dust :) Then with the loop through Reese.

PS- I better stop before you guys would want to assassinate me...

DCX


You are watching the timeline where the son got his mom laid, plain and simple.

There's another world, where maybe time travel didn't exist, and Sarah didn't get any, but you didn' see that one. You saw one where time travel exists and the future is infested by killer robots.
 

OmniGamer

Member
mightynine said:
If you think Cable's story is confusing, don't ever ask about Rachel Summers. Please.

lol, i PMed him a bit about her story...gotta loved those time-displaced, alternate future tax-deductions :)
 

DCX

DCX
Original History
The first movie presents a story in which a robot from the future comes back in time to kill the mother of an as-yet-unborn rebel leader. During the course of the movie, the child is conceived, as son of a man he has sent back from the future to protect his mother; the robot is destroyed and the father killed.

The patent absurdity of this immediately presents itself: the birth of the rebel leader is dependent upon his adult self sending his father back in time to meet his mother. Most reasoning adults would immediately write this off as impossible. However, in studying the patterns of temporal anomalies, we discover a form elsewhere referred to as an "N-Jump", which, properly understood, resolves this difficulty.

In an N-Jump, time extending from the past reaches point A, the point in time to which a traveler from the future will return, and beyond to point B, the point from which the traveler leaves for the past. During this segment of the time line, no changes have been made; it is the original unaltered sequence of events. When our traveler leaves point B, that time line ends--the history based on the A-B segment cannot progress, because the instant the traveler reaches point A, it is changed by his presence, and is re-named point C; this creates an alternate C-D timeline, with D being the same point in time as B. If at point D, the traveler can and does return to point C with the same intentions, history is able to continue into the future. This is an N-Jump.

(The temporal anomalies mentioned here are defined and described more completely in Appendix 11: Temporal Anomalies, of the Referee's Rules of Multiverser, an RPG from Valdron Inc, and in the Primer on Time on this site.)

If upon reaching point D, there is any reason why the traveler cannot return to point C, or if there is no reason for him to do so, the result is an infinity loop: the original A-B segment is restored, ending with the return to the C-D segment, reverting to the A-B segment in a perpetual cycle. In this case, there is no future beyond the time represented by points B and D.

The N-Jump provides the solution to the absurdity of the first Terminator movie. It suggests that this is not the original timeline, but the altered timeline. Although the story of the original timeline has not been told, a substantial amount of it can be reconstructed.

In the original timeline, Sarah Conner's life was fairly ordinary. Very near point A, she met a guy unknown to the altered timeline; he is the necessary original father of John Conner. So little remains of this timeline that almost anything is possible. John Conner might have had a different name, if his mother married. He might in this original timeline have been a girl. One thing is certain: when the war came, Sarah Conner's child was a thorn in the flesh of Skynet.

Of course, Skynet also must have been created in the original timeline, or there would be no war. However, the details of this creation are unknown, as will become clear as the thread unravels


My point exactly...always been my point i win you guys lose :)

DCX
 

Vitten

Member
I've always wondered at the beginning of Alien 3 where the hell those eggs came from since the alien queen had to rip off her egg sac in the previous movie to chase Ripley.
 

DCX

DCX
terminator3.jpg


So your major contribution to this thread is to complain about the Terminator talk...do YOU have any movie plotholes you want to add?

DCX
 

DCX

DCX
Vitten said:
I've always wondered at the beginning of Alien 3 where the hell those eggs came from since the alien queen had to rip off her egg sac in the previous movie to chase Ripley.
I do have some major problems with the Aliens movies, and that's one. Ressurection made soup of the storyline.

DCX
 

Claus

Banned
DCX said:
terminator3.jpg


So your major contribution to this thread is to complain about the Terminator talk...do YOU have any movie plotholes you want to add?

DCX

I wouldn't really consider it a major contribution. Even if I were to add a plothole of my own I'm sure the discussion would still stay on the Terminator so it'd be pointless. :p
 

DCX

DCX
Claus said:
I wouldn't really consider it a major contribution. Even if I were to add a plothole of my own I'm sure the discussion would still stay on the Terminator so it'd be pointless. :p
LOL Join us :)

DCX
 

Bregor

Member
DCX said:
she met a guy unknown to the altered timeline; he is the necessary original father of John Conner. So little remains of this timeline that almost anything is possible. John Conner might have had a different name, if his mother married. He might in this original timeline have been a girl.

WRONG. There is no need for an 'Original' timeline AT ALL. The story as presented makes perfect logical sense. Every effect has a cause, and none of them are contradictory. That website just plainly gets it wrong.
 

DCX

DCX
Bregor said:
WRONG. There is no need for an 'Original' timeline AT ALL. The story as presented makes perfect logical sense. Every effect has a cause, and none of them are contradictory. That website just plainly gets it wrong.
?? Ok..you're just as stubborn as i am :)

DCX
 
Vitten said:
I've always wondered at the beginning of Alien 3 where the hell those eggs came from since the alien queen had to rip off her egg sac in the previous movie to chase Ripley.

The Queen may have indeed layed them. Though Bishop could have grabbed them while Ripley went off searching for Newt. Hicks was out of it and there were other eggs besides the ones in the queens nest.
 

OmniGamer

Member
LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP LOOP
 

MASB

Member
DCX said:
Poor Scott...hold on Scott didn't get Jean Gray pregnant then, he got a clone pregnant? So he cheated on Jean? Well maybe not, a clone is still the person just a copy...hmmmm....if i cloned a gf, i could have a threesome with my gf x2 :) Nice

DCX
That's a kind of a.... different way of thinking. Take identical twins for example. They have the same DNA, but are they the same person? Of course not.
DNA wise, a clone is the same, but as a person (life experiences, thoughts, personality, etc.) they are not the same. So cheating with a clone is cheating, because I doubt most people decide who they sleep with based on an examination of that person's DNA.

My plot hole is for one of my favorite movies ever, Once Upon A Time In The West, starring Charles Bronson and Jason Robards, directed by Sergio Leone. Cut to about the middle of the movie. Frank (Henry Fonda) surprises Jill (Claudia Cardinale) in her house (it's daytime) when she is searching for something. Immediately after that, the movie cuts to a daytime scene with Frank and his employer talking at an abandoned Indian settlement. Then we go to a scene with Harmonica (Bronson) and Cheyenne (Robards) talking outside Jill's house. It's still in the daytime. Are Frank and Jill still inside the house? And if they are, why aren't H&C after Frank? At what point was Frank talking to his boss? Before or after he was with Jill? Here's the highlight of the whole sequence. We next have the sex scene with Frank and Jill, a continuation of the first scene where Frank surprises her in the house.

What happened to the time structure? Is it told in flashbacks? But it surely can't since flashbacks have a very important and very narrow role in the film itself as regards Harmonica and Frank. So what happened? Why do we have these scenes that seem to be taking place at the same time Frank and Jill are getting it on, when they can't possibly be taking place? Logically, it seems like the sex scene should have been one scene, then it be shown to be a later day where Frank and his boss are talking at the Indian settlement and H & C talking at Jill's house (from which she has presumably been taken).

I just don't see how the sequences came about. Was Leone not paying attention? Was it on purpose and if so, why? It's like the time structure of the movie just gets stalled out at that point, until we get to the auction and the movie returns to the flow it's had the whole time.

It's just a strange sequence, that I myself didn't really catch until it was pointed out on the DVD. But once you realize it, it's like, how did that happen?
 

lordmrw

Member
DCX said:
OMFG!!! Now that's a web. Sounds...complicated i'll do some research tonight on this. Poor Scott...hold on Scott didn't get Jean Gray pregnant then, he got a clone pregnant? So he cheated on Jean? Well maybe not, a clone is still the person just a copy...hmmmm....if i cloned a gf, i could have a threesome with my gf x2 :) Nice

DCX


To be fair, he did it when it seemed like Jean had died on the moon. SInce Madelyne looked exactly like her, he figured fuck it, might as well. My problem with the whole thing is that once Jean really came back, he abandoned Madelyne and his son to go be with her.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom