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[James Sawyer Ford]

Thats not who we are. With games like Hogwarts and Elden Rings making $800 million in a month, their stupid decision to settle for $100-200 million a year is blowing up in their face right now. I wouldnt be surprised if the revenue is down to $50 million per year since only the whales are playing Destiny 2 at this point.

Hogwarts and Elden Ring take how long to develop?

$200M/year is pretty good revenue. Where are you getting your numbers.

You can't equate a game that takes 5+ years to develop and gets one release window with a GaaS title that has annualized income.

 

[SlimySnake]

Hogwarts and Elden Ring take how long to develop?

$200M/year is pretty good revenue. Where are you getting your numbers.

You can't equate a game that takes 5+ years to develop and gets one release window with a GaaS title that has annualized income.

elden ring 4 years. hogwarts probably around the same time.

And no its not $200 million per year. that was when Destiny 2 was at their peak. their numbers are way down. they said their estimates were lowered already so if they failed to meet them by 45% then we are looking at well below $100 million. it is clearly not sustainable. its why activision releases a new cod every year. dlc can only take you so far. you need those $70 sales in the millions. Spiderman 2 was made in 2.5 years and sold 2.5 million copies in one day. GOW was made in 4.5 years and sold 5 million in a week then 11 million in 11 weeks. TLOu2 made in 3 years and sold 4 million in 3 days. zelda 6 years and 12 million in a month. that is the business model that has worked for all the big companies, but bungie thought they could reinvent gaas and make $200 million a year without putting in the effort required to reinvent and make new games from scratch. well now its blown up in their face. good job.

i remember googling bungie revenue a few years ago and it was around $200 million.

 

[DForce]

Ryan was well and truly taken by Bungie, over 3 billion for a studio in trouble

Oh. It's not like ABK or Zenimax didn't have trouble.

Zenimax was going around shopping for exclusive deals. Bobby and many employees were coming out with accusations left and right and games like Overwatch 2 was being heavily criticized.

 

[Warablo]

Such hero's are Sony

 

[Physiognomonics]

Remind me who was in charge when they bought Bungie (in order to chase the GAAS trap)?

 

[HoodWinked]

Microsoft's M&A game is why they're the second most valuable company in the world. This is Sony trying to play the same game without the same shrewd business ruthlessness just can't match them.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

elden ring 4 years. hogwarts probably around the same time.

And no its not $200 million per year. that was when Destiny 2 was at their peak. their numbers are way down. they said their estimates were lowered already so if they failed to meet them by 45% then we are looking at well below $100 million. it is clearly not sustainable. its why activision releases a new cod every year. dlc can only take you so far. you need those $70 sales in the millions. Spiderman 2 was made in 2.5 years and sold 2.5 million copies in one day. GOW was made in 4.5 years and sold 5 million in a week then 11 million in 11 weeks. TLOu2 made in 3 years and sold 4 million in 3 days. zelda 6 years and 12 million in a month. that is the business model that has worked for all the big companies, but bungie thought they could reinvent gaas and make $200 million a year without putting in the effort required to reinvent and make new games from scratch. well now its blown up in their face. good job.

i remember googling bungie revenue a few years ago and it was around $200 million.

Your numbers are off. And ALSO, one thing that is being taken out of context is the 45% decline. This is for their PROJECTED revenue this year, not a decline from last year's numbers. So in theory, they probably just expected too much growth based on prior year growth rates. Revenue may have actually been flat, or only slightly negative on a YoY basis.

There's some decent speculation in these posts:

Bungie: Revenue, Competitors, Alternatives

Bungie top competitors are The World and they have annual revenue of $491.9M and 1703 employees.

growjo.com

Destiny is pulling in hundreds of millions of dollars collectively from expansion sales and microtransactions ($300M-$500M annually).

 

[Hawkeye2890]

I feel like announcing Destiny 3 could have re-ignited interest and gave them a way to save the game. Its too convoluted to continue with D2. Guess im in the minority tho....

 

[Ronin_7]

Jeopardy is hyperbole, but i expect the studio would have had more than 100 layoffs if they weren't.

They were already too big (800-900+) for a one game GaaS that wasn't as big as WZ, Fortnite, Apex.

They're 1150 but 'only' 650 work on Destiny 2.

I guess the others 500s or so are working on the new IPs.

According to some leaker Bungie plans to have 3-4 new IPs in active development.

 

[Z O N E]

So that quote from MS during the trial that said something about Bungie being a risk was pretty much true then.

I give it a few years and Bungie will buy themselves out of Playstation, just like they did with MS and Activision. Lol

 

[K' Dash]

-Sony fires Bungie developers (it was Bungie itself) = bad Sony.
-Sony helps support Bungie studio = sony were scammed.

Whatever they do will be wrong.

 

[thismeinteil]

Bungie under Microsoft delivered both quality and exceptional sales. Thats what I'm saying...

You're talking about a MS/Xbox that has long since died. They died near the end of the 360 gen. New Xbox would have also run Bungie Halo into the ground.

Bungie left because they were tired of Halo. Forcing them to stay on a franchise they were tired of would not come up with different results. The talented people would have left. The same thing that happened to Rare.

 

[Punished Miku]

So that quote from MS during the trial that said something about Bungie being a risk was pretty much true then.

Where was that? I missed it.

 

[SlimySnake]

Your numbers are off. And ALSO, one thing that is being taken out of context is the 45% decline. This is for their PROJECTED revenue this year, not a decline from last year's numbers. So in theory, they probably just expected too much growth based on prior year growth rates. Revenue may have actually been flat, or only slightly negative on a YoY basis.

There's some decent speculation in these posts:

Bungie: Revenue, Competitors, Alternatives

Bungie top competitors are The World and they have annual revenue of $491.9M and 1703 employees.

growjo.com

Destiny is pulling in hundreds of millions of dollars collectively from expansion sales and microtransactions ($300M-$500M annually).

Dude if they were making $300-500 million a year, they would not be laying off anyone.

 

[Kerotan]

Was it the witch queen that was delayed from the regular September slot to February? Looks like Bungie doesn't have the ability to do a proper expansion every 12 months.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Where was that? I missed it.

Microsoft Considered Buying Bungie For Destiny 2 But There Was One ‘Risk’

As part of the treasure trove of documents being released in the Microsoft-FTC case, some have been revealed talking about Microsoft’s acquisition plans regarding non-Activision studios, namely SEGA, Bungie, Zynga and IO Interactive.

www.forbes.com

However, Microsoft did cite a specific risk regarding Bungie, its “high burn-rate.” No this is not “burnout rate” with players getting tired of the game and quitting. Burn-rate refers to cash, with Bungie burning through it in order to maintain Destiny 2 as a live game producing lots of content, in addition to funding all their other projects, which we know now include Marathon and Matter still to come.

Strange that Microsoft would be concerned with a high burn rate, when that's exactly what they are taking on with Activision and Bethesda, but magnified by 10x or more.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Dude if they were making $300-500 million a year, they would not be laying off anyone.

Not true. They had 1200 employees. That costs the company pretty close to $250M alone in payroll, let alone marketing spend for their games. So $300M is basically a razor thin margin with potential negative operating profitability.

$500M would be pretty healthy, but that likely was their PROJECTED 2023 revenue, and they probably dropped 45% from that goal

 

[StueyDuck]

Surely only one person from bungie needed to be on jeopardy!

 

[Loomy]

Yes.. but if you are in a position of weakness you usually cant make too much demands... anyway is all speculation

It's in Sony's best interest for Destiny to remain multi platform.

 

[cireza]

Thank you Sony, savior of Bungie ! (*)

(*) except for the people that have just been fired

 

[NikuNashi]

Leaving Microsoft was the worst decision Bungie ever made.

Yeah, HALO has gone from strength to strength since Bungie passed the torch

 

[SHA]

One word, "Destiny 3 will save Bunjie from jeopardy".

 

[nikolino840]

Sony right now Savior of the poor and marginalized because have an heart... sacrifice for the others

 

[ByWatterson]

I'd bet anything that, at Sony's direction, a small team inside Bungie is cooking up a traditional military shooter to compete with COD.

Campaign, arenas, BR.

 

[Thirty7ven]

I'd bet anything that, at Sony's direction, a small team inside Bungie is cooking up a traditional military shooter to compete with COD.

Campaign, arenas, BR.

Fuck no.

 

[Salty Popsicle]

Yeah, HALO has gone from strength to strength since Bungie passed the torch

Exactly, your proving my point. The torch should never have been passed.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Microsoft Considered Buying Bungie For Destiny 2 But There Was One ‘Risk’

As part of the treasure trove of documents being released in the Microsoft-FTC case, some have been revealed talking about Microsoft’s acquisition plans regarding non-Activision studios, namely SEGA, Bungie, Zynga and IO Interactive.

www.forbes.com

Strange that Microsoft would be concerned with a high burn rate, when that's exactly what they are taking on with Activision and Bethesda, but magnified by 10x or more.

Activision makes $2B profit per year, and Bethesda who knows what their financials were when MS bought them.

So what info do you have that Activision and Bethesda are big cash burning money losers?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Activision makes $2B profit per year, and Bethesda who knows what their financials were when MS bought them.

So what info do you have that Activision and Bethesda are big cash burning money losers?

So it’ll take close to 35 years for them to break even on Activision assuming those profits don’t decrease substantially. Not a good investment on paper

Bethesda had Redfall and Starfield, both underperformed and will have poor legs. Ghost wire, death loop, and HiFi all failed to sell well.

GamePass is a massive cash burn for them and they acquired 20,000 heads or more of payroll costs

 

[StreetsofBeige]

So it’ll take close to 35 years for them to break even on Activision assuming those profits don’t decrease substantially. Not a good investment on paper

Bethesda had Redfall and Starfield, both underperformed and will have poor legs. Ghost wire, death loop, and HiFi all failed to sell well.

GamePass is a massive cash burn for them and they acquired 20,000 heads or more of payroll costs

And sony invested money into jade Raymond’s gaming company and they have zero games and zero sales. It’ll take infinite to make back their investment.

Pretty dumb huh?

I can tell you don’t own a house or investments because nobody who buys a house on a 20 year mortgage says it’ll take 20 years to break even, Nor does someone buying a stock for $50 paying a $1 dividend says it’ll take 50 years to break even either.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

And sony invested money into jade Raymond’s gaming company and they have zero games and zero sales. It’ll take infinite to make back their investment.

Pretty dumb huh?

I can tell you don’t own a house or investments because nobody who buys a house on a 20 year mortgage says it’ll take 20 years to break even, Nor does someone buying a stock for $50 paying a $1 dividend says it’ll take 50 years to break even either.

What’s dumb is thinking this is analogous to Jade Raymond’s studio or a house.

With a house you are buying a tangible asset, typically with no cash flows, using mortgage debt, and whereby it reasonably can be expected to roughly match inflation. But it’s a consumption item with many ongoing costs, generally not an investment.

For Microsoft to make good on the Activision purchase they have to grow their earnings, which one could argue may be on the precipice of significant decline due to GamePass, potential long term franchise foreclosure, studio mismanagement and scandals, and IP decline with CoD and Diablo.

It’s a massive cash burn in headcount and I’d argue there’s no rational justification when looking at purely profitability, Microsoft is looking to use it as a means to become relevant again and perhaps eventually usher in everyone moving onto the Cloud so they can try and claim the capture of primary ecosystem. It is very unlikely for that to pan out.

 

[pasterpl]

So it’ll take close to 35 years for them to break even on Activision assuming those profits don’t decrease substantially. Not a good investment on paper

Bethesda had Redfall and Starfield, both underperformed and will have poor legs. Ghost wire, death loop, and HiFi all failed to sell well.

GamePass is a massive cash burn for them and they acquired 20,000 heads or more of payroll costs

with you logic yes, but you have to be not that good at economics, buying an asset for 70bn doesn’t mean that that asset value drops to 0bn and the only way to get you money back is yearly sales of this asset product. Surprise, this asset is still worth 70bn, it just making money for the other owner. If the sales of Activision games stay at 2bn everyone will be happy, plus there is a bunch of IPs that MS purchased (StarCraft, guitar hero, crash, Spyro etc.). If the sales miss forecasts by 45% then there is a problem.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

with you logic yes, but you have to be not that good at economics, buying an asset for 70bn doesn’t mean that that asset value drops to 0bn and the only way to get you money back is yearly sales of this asset product. Surprise, this asset is still worth 70bn, it just making money for the other owner. If the sales of Activision games stay at 2bn everyone will be happy, plus there is a bunch of IPs that MS purchased (StarCraft, guitar hero, crash, Spyro etc.). If the sales miss forecasts by 45% then there is a problem.

How much is Kodak worth today? Companies have a lifespan. Bad ones, not so long.

If Activision, under Microsoft’s leadership, isn’t completely gutted with very few relevant IP in 20 years, I will be surprised, I do not have faith in their ability to manage studios, turn things around, or keep IP relevant

I think this was a long shot move to try and turn the tide towards cloud in about 10 years time and they are willing to light cash on fire to try and achieve that

 

[pasterpl]

How much is Kodak worth today? Companies have a lifespan. Bad ones, not so long.

If Activision, under Microsoft’s leadership, isn’t completely gutted with very few relevant IP in 20 years, I will be surprised, I do not have faith in their ability to manage studios, turn things around, or keep IP relevant

I think this was a long shot move to try and turn the tide towards cloud in about 10 years time and they are willing to light cash on fire to try and achieve that

Your faith have nothing to do with company value, are you also a Tarot reader? Also 20 years is sh*t loads of time, Bungie “collapsed” under Sony within 12-24 months.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Your faith have nothing to do with company value, are you also a Tarot reader? Also 20 years is sh*t loads of time, Bungie “collapsed” under Sony within 12-24 months.

20 years is a blip on the radar for Microsoft.

I’m simply saying that their acquisition wasn’t directly tied to Activision profitability alone, they have much larger platform goals they want to expedite by burning through cash, far more than what Bungie costs to operate

 

[sinnergy]

Sony the savior of studios ! Now fire everyone

 

[mckmas8808]

Bungie "we are in jeopardy if not purchased "
Also bungie "we will only be purchased if we can keep multiplat"

Something don't add up ...

100% THIS. I don't get it. They had no leverage over Sony.

 

[mckmas8808]

Bungie is clearly lost. 6 years after Destiny 2, and no new game? Did they really think that they could keep console gamers locked in an endless cycle of DLCs?

Thats not who we are. With games like Hogwarts and Elden Rings making $800 million in a month, their stupid decision to settle for $100-200 million a year is blowing up in their face right now. I wouldnt be surprised if the revenue is down to $50 million per year since only the whales are playing Destiny 2 at this point.

They shouldve released Destiny 3 in 2020 as a brand new game or worked on a brand new IP. If the best you can do in 8 years is a fucking shitty extraction shooter than you are a trash useless excuse for a video game developer. I thought their next big IP was going to be some legendary shooter like Halo with obvious multiplayer elements. I thought the entire reason why they didnt make Destiny 3 was because they hated making it and wanted to go back to making traditional games.

its obvious now that they have no talent or ambition to make anything even remotely interesting. They are content with making boring and dated Destiny expansions no one other than hardcore destiny addicts want to play. And their ambition basically amounts to extraction shooter.

They have $1,200 people working there making trash while CD project and insomniac with 500 people are far more productive producing industry leading graphics and storytelling. cyberpunk sold 13 million copies in a week IIRC. At full price, thats almost $800 million in revenue. Good look making that kind of cash with destiny expansions. GaaS killed Bungie.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Bungie "we are in jeopardy if not purchased "
Also bungie "we will only be purchased if we can keep multiplat"

Something don't add up ...

100% THIS. I don't get it. They had no leverage over Sony.

Bungie needs to be multiplatform because given their history they shuffle around from big corporate umbrella to umbrella every so often. And sometimes independent.

If they are under MS or Sony or Activision they can focus on an exclusive franchise if they have to as per direction since the parent company can cover costs. Any sales and profit targets they have are adjusted to be based on an exclusive IP.

BUT, the second they are sold off or their partnership deal ends where they are independent again (going by their track record they'll probably be independent again in 2030) they need their IPs to be multiplatform to drive sales to fund their gigantic 1000+ people studio that focuses on one game at a time. If they are unchained and had an MS or Sony franchise solely on one platform, they got zero player base of sales from other platforms and would have to spend a lot of money marketing their new game and praying the new platform gamers gain traction. If they remain multiplatform then the gamer community will always see them as supporting their platform which makes it easier to sell games whether they are owned by a company or independent.

Their company is structured with high costs and GAAS gaming across multiple platforms one IP at a time. So they can never afford to close doors at gamers across different platforms, even if Sony stated they'll cover all costs. Thats because the second they arent owned anymore they are fucked unless they still have multiplatform revenue. They need their studio to be perceived as a third party even though they are first party owned for sake of whatever happens in the future. and they need to be multiplatform so the studio is acquainted with all console tech. So when they break off from Sony at some point (I'm sure they will), all the employees can immediately make multiplatform games without a hitch.

 

[Pfroebbel]

Bungie should make a Killzone Reboot to show they can do good SP Games
With still 900 People working there they could sure put a smaller Team for such a Project.

WinWin for Everyone.

 

[Bernardougf]

It's in Sony's best interest for Destiny to remain multi platform.

Yes it is ... And if any game is better multiplat so be it ... BUT thats not the case, bungie as we know remained an "independent" studio releasing their games all of them if they want multiplat , so this kind of demand/contract usually dont come from some doomed company ... demands like these comes from a position of strength. So Bungie was NOT in jeopardy or this is the worst acquisition contract ever.

 

[shaddam]

Sometimes I think about playing D2, but buying all the dlc? And some of the early content were removed if I am correct? Fuck this mmofpshit

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Bungie is clearly lost. 6 years after Destiny 2, and no new game? Did they really think that they could keep console gamers locked in an endless cycle of DLCs?

Thats not who we are. With games like Hogwarts and Elden Rings making $800 million in a month, their stupid decision to settle for $100-200 million a year is blowing up in their face right now. I wouldnt be surprised if the revenue is down to $50 million per year since only the whales are playing Destiny 2 at this point.

They shouldve released Destiny 3 in 2020 as a brand new game or worked on a brand new IP. If the best you can do in 8 years is a fucking shitty extraction shooter than you are a trash useless excuse for a video game developer. I thought their next big IP was going to be some legendary shooter like Halo with obvious multiplayer elements. I thought the entire reason why they didnt make Destiny 3 was because they hated making it and wanted to go back to making traditional games.

its obvious now that they have no talent or ambition to make anything even remotely interesting. They are content with making boring and dated Destiny expansions no one other than hardcore destiny addicts want to play. And their ambition basically amounts to extraction shooter.

They have $1,200 people working there making trash while CD project and insomniac with 500 people are far more productive producing industry leading graphics and storytelling. cyberpunk sold 13 million copies in a week IIRC. At full price, thats almost $800 million in revenue. Good look making that kind of cash with destiny expansions. GaaS killed Bungie.

But that is the plan.

Bungie is a one game at a time studio. I'm sure Destiny 3 will come out at some point to continue the destiny time line, but as long as the golden goose called Destiny 2 keeps rolling in it, no need to change. I'm surprised they got Marathon and whatever other games under development because it shows they actually got more games they might sell concurrently.

But at this point of time, they are a Destiny only company. They know what they are doing. It's just that some companies have many games to cover their product line and spread out sales and risk, and companies like Bungie are all eggs in one basket.

Its just that their latest DLC didnt do well so thats why they missed forecasts by 45% so affects them harder than a company selling 5 or 10 games at a time.

 

[simpatico]

The last Destiny 2 release really seemed like a fuck you to the players. I can't wrap my head around how they let it out the door. Just pissed on all the amazing aesthetics Bungie nurtured throughout the Destiny 2 life cycle. I can't believe it wasn't intentional.

 

[mckmas8808]

Bungie needs to be multiplatform because given their history they shuffle around from big corporate umbrella to umbrella every so often. And sometimes independent.

If they are under MS or Sony or Activision they can focus on an exclusive franchise if they have to as per direction since the parent company can cover costs. Any sales and profit targets they have are adjusted to be based on an exclusive IP.

BUT, the second they are sold off or their partnership deal ends where they are independent again (going by their track record they'll probably be independent again in 2030) they need their IPs to be multiplatform to drive sales to fund their gigantic 1000+ people studio that focuses on one game at a time. If they are unchained and had an MS or Sony franchise solely on one platform, they got zero player base of sales from other platforms and would have to spend a lot of money marketing their new game and praying the new platform gamers gain traction. If they remain multiplatform then the gamer community will always see them as supporting their platform which makes it easier to sell games whether they are owned by a company or independent.

Their company is structured with high costs and GAAS gaming across multiple platforms one IP at a time. So they can never afford to close doors at gamers across different platforms, even if Sony stated they'll cover all costs. Thats because the second they arent owned anymore they are fucked unless they still have multiplatform revenue. They need their studio to be perceived as a third party even though they are first party owned for sake of whatever happens in the future. and they need to be multiplatform so the studio is acquainted with all console tech. So when they break off from Sony at some point (I'm sure they will), all the employees can immediately make multiplatform games without a hitch.

With that many people, they need to be working on two games at once.

 

[THE DUCK]

They seem realy talented, hopefully sony can get them working on a regular AAA game.

 

[Katatonic]

Bungie, the haters be yappin'. You know what you have to do .

 

[balls of snow]

Send off Destiny and lets never hear about it again for at least 10 years.

 

[FingerBang]

The last Destiny 2 release really seemed like a fuck you to the players. I can't wrap my head around how they let it out the door. Just pissed on all the amazing aesthetics Bungie nurtured throughout the Destiny 2 life cycle. I can't believe it wasn't intentional.

I have been one of those players that would go back to Destiny for a few weeks with every new expansion and then wait for the next year. I got all of those (and bought them again on PC afterwards). The last 2 expansions, I couldn't even bring myself to finish the campaign.

There should have been a Destiny 3 instead of all the sunsetting and removing/updating component. The game is basically not for new players who can't even experience the whole story anymore. But let's face it, Bungie simply did not want to stop squeezing out disappointing new DLC every year and lose the cash flow. They're not beyond saving, but Destiny 2 needs to die and there must be something new. Even though it means it's going to be a few years before a new release. They have Sony behind ffs, they can afford to do that now.

 

[Orbital2060]

Bungie leaving xbox was a huge mistake, which has kept on rolling for years now. Nothing against Sony in this. But they should have poured all of that destiny energy into halo, and stayed with xbox.