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[Clear]

Some of us care about devs tho. I never praise Kojima, I never Praise Sony or Microsoft, I praise the working man/woman that give us the games not the ones gaf drools about in every single thread. At the end of the day we can't really do anything can we? Stop buying the games? Then the devs suffer. Buy the games? Money goes to publisher, devs still suffer? Criticize the game with low ratings? Devs suffers again. THeres no winning for them either way. We can bring shit to light but yeah doubt anything will ever change. Maybe a little.

As a former dev I find it patronizing, and frankly insulting. These people aren't asking for your assistance or pity. Don't you think it comes off as being intrusive and weirdly voyeuristic to show such interest in other people's work and lifestyle conditions?

The worst part is the insinuation that these people aren't able to assert or help themselves.

Bottom line, if you actually cared about working practices/conditions you wouldn't pick such a "soft" occupation as game dev to champion. Whole employment sectors offer potentially far harsher conditions, you don't even need to go to the worst kind of sweatshop practices to see situations where being overworked and underpaid is far more of an issue for those affected.

I'd rather work in any capacity in game-dev than in retail on a zero-hour contract.

Sorry, but this whole thing makes me furious because its so FAKE. Its recreational outrage, and thus more about narcissism than empathy.

 

[Buggy Loop]

… soooo… in short, a typical Japanese company?

It’s like that over there 126 Million peoples on a tiny island, it fucks up any work leverage.

 

[The Cockatrice]

As a former dev I find it patronizing, and frankly insulting. These people aren't asking for your assistance or pity. Don't you think it comes off as being intrusive and weirdly voyeuristic to show such interest in other people's work and lifestyle conditions?

Not at all. Thats your opinion, but I dobut thats every developers opinion. I highly doubt they dont want ppl to know how shitty their work environment is when they themselves went fucking public with that information lol. As for the other parts of your post, you clearly have some issues there that I won't delve deeper. Good luck with that tho

 

[Fbh]

So I looked up some other companies.
Capcom has 2,9 stars, Sega has 2.9, Square has 3.0, Platinum games has 1.8 (lol), Koei Tecmo has 3.1, Bandai Namco 3.4 and Nintendo are the best that I could find at 3.7

FROM seems a bit lower but all of them except maybe Namco and Nintendo seem to be in a very similar range.

Also things to keep in mind after looking at the site:
- FROM has a pretty low number of reviews/reports (21. For reference capcom has 99, Square has 113 and Bandai Namco has over 200).
- Out of those 21 reports only 13 are proper reviews
- Out of those 13 reviews, 8 are from 2013 or earlier
- The newest reviews are from 2016, there's 5 of them and they all have a 3.5 score.

 

[Razvedka]

The entire industry abuses its technical staff. Plus Japanese work culture is the very definition of cancer so none of this is surprising.

These talented individuals should try working some remote western gigs or leave Japan altogether if they're unhappy, I don't see any other alternatives for them.

 

[j0hnnix]

Now I understand why Malenia was such a pain. They were letting us feel their pain.

 

[Juza]

Some people are digging for everything because Elden Ring is achieving a huge success and because they can't get any information about what is going on in the studio they only have these websites lol

"omg we have to find something! we want new drama"

 

[GodLordPaddock]

 

[mitch1971]

But if you give them better pay and conditions, that's just easy mode.

 

[MiguelItUp]

Feels like this information always suddenly comes to light when a game is successful these days. The hard part to swallow is that this is beyond common in the industry, at least in my experience.

The last studio I worked for I was at for about 6 years, and during my time there I became a Senior QA, QA Lead, and Community Manager. After each pay bump and everything that came with it, I never made more than $35K, and I worked overtime almost all the time. As well as many others in the studio, some even made less than that, so somewhere between the $25K-30K area.

We stayed there because we loved what we were doing, the vibe, the people, etc. But we all knew that we should've received a higher wage. But that was on us. Some people left, some people stayed put. But the majority went on to do things outside of the industry because they just didn't want to have to deal with that anymore. Hell, some people double/tripled their pay doing so. It's pretty sad.

Not saying EVERY developer or publisher pays that way, that's not true of course. I'm just saying that this behavior is unfortunately more common than a lot of people may think.

 

[Von Hugh]

Again with these types of news

 

[luffie]

Feels like this information always suddenly comes to light when a game is successful these days. The hard part to swallow is that this is beyond common in the industry, at least in my experience.

The last studio I worked for I was at for about 6 years, and during my time there I became a Senior QA, QA Lead, and Community Manager. After each pay bump and everything that came with it, I never made more than $35K, and I worked overtime almost all the time. As well as many others in the studio, some even made less than that, so somewhere between the $25K-30K area.

We stayed there because we loved what we were doing, the vibe, the people, etc. But we all knew that we should've received a higher wage. But that was on us. Some people left, some people stayed put. But the majority went on to do things outside of the industry because they just didn't want to have to deal with that anymore. Hell, some people double/tripled their pay doing so. It's pretty sad.

Not saying EVERY developer or publisher pays that way, that's not true of course. I'm just saying that this behavior is unfortunately more common than a lot of people may think.

Because that was information a decade ago.

I'm not minimizing the problem, but it's an issue that is not exclusive to the game industry itself. When it's market rate and societal culture, it will take more than a few tweets to fix it.

 

[NoLootBoxDev]

Tell me of a company that pays their employees a real decent wage, and is not the Shareholders/CEO's or similar....

 

[Shmunter]

They just take it out on the gamers

 

[Mr Moose]

*Checks average rent in Tokyo*
Oh...
This data is old though, might've improved.

 

[Wastelander92]

The reviews are 10 years old. Before Dark Souls released, before Miyazaki became President, and before Kadowaka bought them. Also that Twitter user was trashing on ER because… it was getting a lot of 10/10 reviews…

 

[MiguelItUp]

Because that was information a decade ago.

I'm not minimizing the problem, but it's an issue that is not exclusive to the game industry itself. When it's market rate and societal culture, it will take more than a few tweets to fix it.

Ah fair point, I missed that memo. Most likely just outdated and people are misusing the info.

It's most certainly not an issue exclusive to the game industry itself, sure. But it has been incredibly common, and still is. Considering I know a few co-workers still going through the motions.

It will take a lot more than tweets to fix it, exactly. That's the annoying part is that blasting stuff on Twitter isn't going to save the world.

 

[DeliciousDoc]

Found this on reddit/twitter as its slowly blowing up.

Sources: https://careerconnection.jp/review/569991/


theres more darker stuff on that twitter feed. True or not, what do you think gaf? I know work culture in Japan is rough but is it as rough as we think or worse?

Sounds like Google translate detective work from drama merchants. The job satisfaction (feel of meaning) is 4.2 not the difficulty. The kanji or meaning of that expression isn't very difficult if you understand basic Japanese (shigoto no yarigai) so that tells you about the quality of their research.

They also have people in their early 20s making a good salary for more specific jobs like graphic design and programmers (code monkeys?) in their 30s making a salary that's a bit low. Seems all over the place. Haven't checked the bonus information and other things that require you to sign in.

The salary information is also useless without the average national salary, by age and for their office's location. From the last time I checked (before a recent government pay increase initiative) the average salary was 4.7 million yen. Turning into dollars has little meaning without cost of living but yes, it is a lot less than US IT salaries which are very high.

 

[Evil Calvin]

Well apparently they all just got bonuses

 

[Sleepwalker]

Truly don't care

 

[TheMan]

Numbers look bad but context would be more interesting. Specific complaints or specific details about the work environment.

 

[Papacheeks]

Japanese culture (I'm an expert) woefully undervalues software developers compared to the west, even when they're outputting a massively successful product. It's not a problem specific to FROM, and it's unlikely to be something that can change through western activism. The people making these brilliant games should be properly compensated and treated like the golden gods they are, but it's not a just world.

Would pay structure and salaries be able to change if lets say a bigger company like Sony/Playstation bought them?

 

[Spaceman292]

"MUH i need attention, what should i do?... Oh yeah let's write some dramas about the things that is the HYPE at the moment"

Yeah as usual...

You have the Japanese that are passionte about art. And the Westerner passionte about dramas.

'People are enjoying something? No, no, no. I MUST find a way to make them feel guilty about it!'

 

[DeepEnigma]

Every time something rises to the top, there will be those negative forces trying to tear it down.

'People are enjoying something? No, no, no. I MUST find a way to make them feel guilty about it!'

This.

 

[TVexperto]

nah he only likes to shit on western companies like cd projekt

 

[wolywood]

Their office probably doesn't have fire exit signs because it "clutters up the UI".

 

[Neilg]

Tell me of a company that pays their employees a real decent wage, and is not the Shareholders/CEO's or similar....

There are an absolute shitload but it doesn't make the news when a company has pretty happy staff on an average salary of 70k+. They all do really boring mundane shit and need to compensate with an appropriate salary.

You have to go out of your way to find bay pay in tech, finance, law or real estate. 3d artists can make a ton of money, you just have to avoid being the kind of person willing to throw themselves at the meat grinder of 'i simply must work on the hottest games/movies'.

 

[GermanZepp]

it is indeed a story based on a random tweet with anonymous comments from more than a decade ago.

 

[kraspkibble]

you've ruined my day next time please mark NSFW or hide in the spoiler tag!

 

[Northeastmonk]

I bought 3 copies of Elden Ring. That's as much as I can do besides sending them a check. Unfortunately that doesn't go into the pockets of the team members. I think I've purchased double/triple on all their games. Here in the west we pay $59.99, $69.99 or wait for a big discount and game designers here drive Lambos, live luxurious lives, and tell us off on social media. Something's not right. I do understand the work culture is much different in Japan and I realize this is possibly a hot take on the actual situation. That's just my two cents.

Didn't the entire team at FROM get a raise recently due to the success of Elden Ring? I think these knee jerk reactions from social media are just hot takes on whatever they read somewhere. I'm sure you could find bad reviews for a lot of companies on Glassdoor.

 

[alucard0712_rus]

That's why their games are so painful.

 

[Kiddo Cabbusses]

The last studio I worked for I was at for about 6 years, and during my time there I became a Senior QA, QA Lead, and Community Manager. After each pay bump and everything that came with it, I never made more than $35K, and I worked overtime almost all the time. As well as many others in the studio, some even made less than that, so somewhere between the $25K-30K area.

These salary numbers utterly depress me, especially when comparing with the rising cost of education. I'd hate myself if I spent six digits on a degree that would only get me a job that only pays about 5k more than local retail does here.

 

[daveonezero]

These salary numbers utterly depress me, especially when comparing with the rising cost of education. I'd hate myself if I spent six digits on a degree that would only get me a job that only pays about 5k more than local retail does here.

the problem isn’t the salary it is the degree.

 

[Alebrije]

They want to earn more....they need to git gud

 

[MiguelItUp]

These salary numbers utterly depress me, especially when comparing with the rising cost of education. I'd hate myself if I spent six digits on a degree that would only get me a job that only pays about 5k more than local retail does here.

Believe me, I know. It was hard for majority of us to comfortably get by or save money. In QA there was a rotating door at one point cause folks would come in with degrees and assume there was a quick way for them to move up. But it all depended on time. A lot of them would join the team, and then eventually leave because the pay was so low and there was no signs of it improving anytime soon. The ones that stuck around were hopeful or just extremely passionate to be working in games.

the problem isn’t the salary it is the degree.

That's not always the case. Where I was there were plenty of people with good and beyond valid degrees, and that education provided them with JUST a $2K-$5K increase. But a lot of them were making $35K-40K or less.

I myself have a degree, and what I got with it essentially felt like nothing. This was also my second studio gig, not even my first, but it felt like I was being treated like entry level through and through. It was rough, lol.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I'm more curious as to Job Difficulty being 4.2/5.

Does a high rating mean the workload is easy?

 

[daveonezero]

I myself have a degree, and what I got with it essentially felt like nothing. This was also my second studio gig, not even my first, but it felt like I was being treated like entry level through and through. It was rough, lol.

You are entry level. Getting a degree and going to school isn’t real world work experience. That happens in all industries. If you move companies it is hard to not be treated like a newbie. You have to prove your worth.

 

[Neilg]

You are entry level. Getting a degree and going to school isn’t real world work experience. That happens in all industries. If you move companies it is hard to not be treated like a newbie. You have to prove your worth.

Also, dont try and find work in a meat grinder to get your favorite IP in your portfolio and your salary will be much better.

 

[daveonezero]

Also, dont try and find work in a meat grinder to get your favorite IP in your portfolio and your salary will be much better.

Yeah. The demand and supply of labor for those positions is high and that brings the wages down.

But you get to put a groundbreaking game on your resume and probably get some very high value experience.

 

[Razvedka]

As a former dev I find it patronizing, and frankly insulting. These people aren't asking for your assistance or pity. Don't you think it comes off as being intrusive and weirdly voyeuristic to show such interest in other people's work and lifestyle conditions?

The worst part is the insinuation that these people aren't able to assert or help themselves.

Bottom line, if you actually cared about working practices/conditions you wouldn't pick such a "soft" occupation as game dev to champion. Whole employment sectors offer potentially far harsher conditions, you don't even need to go to the worst kind of sweatshop practices to see situations where being overworked and underpaid is far more of an issue for those affected.

I'd rather work in any capacity in game-dev than in retail on a zero-hour contract.

Sorry, but this whole thing makes me furious because its so FAKE. Its recreational outrage, and thus more about narcissism than empathy.

This. Though I would add that people might tend to have more of an emotional connection to video game sector and its conditions based on their passion/enjoyment of the hobby.

 

[MiguelItUp]

You are entry level. Getting a degree and going to school isn’t real world work experience. That happens in all industries. If you move companies it is hard to not be treated like a newbie. You have to prove your worth.

As a nearly 40 year old man, you're preaching to the choir.

That wasn't the case here at all, but I wasn't making a post to discuss my entire work resume and experience, that isn't important. Especially here. I also wasn't referring to just myself. This was the same issue with other employees that came from multiple studios such as Capcom, Ubisoft, THQ, etc. Folks that had plenty of related previous work experience, including myself. Some departments just received a lot less and worse care than others.

What I was trying to say is that this industry in particular is known to have issues with pay and working conditions. It's existed, and still does. Though it's looking less and less frequent, which is a good thing. Especially for employees in the QA department.

 

[Perrott]

 

[Blood Borne]

Sorry, but I don’t give a fuck. Make me my fuckin games.

 

[Rayderism]

Yep, I hate my job too.

You're not supposed to like your job, that's why they call it work and not super happy wonderful fun time.

 

[DevilHunterX0]

It seems that FromSoftware's MCs are based upon their employees.

 

[N1tr0sOx1d3]

Wow…..glad I don’t work for you.

 

[Killer8]

As a former dev I find it patronizing, and frankly insulting. These people aren't asking for your assistance or pity. Don't you think it comes off as being intrusive and weirdly voyeuristic to show such interest in other people's work and lifestyle conditions?

The worst part is the insinuation that these people aren't able to assert or help themselves.

Bottom line, if you actually cared about working practices/conditions you wouldn't pick such a "soft" occupation as game dev to champion. Whole employment sectors offer potentially far harsher conditions, you don't even need to go to the worst kind of sweatshop practices to see situations where being overworked and underpaid is far more of an issue for those affected.

I'd rather work in any capacity in game-dev than in retail on a zero-hour contract.

Sorry, but this whole thing makes me furious because its so FAKE. Its recreational outrage, and thus more about narcissism than empathy.

Nice argument, nigga:

The gaming industry being a shit one to work in does not magically cease to be shit just because people elsewhere in the world have it worse. You sound like the type of motherfucker who, as soon as some workplace grievance is raised, wheels out the "WELL IT COULD BE WORSE, AT LEAST YOU DON'T HAVE TO CLEAN TOILETS" spiel. 'Appeal to worse problems' fallacy in action.

I worked in the gaming industry for over 5 years and what's happening at From is repeatedly seen across the entire sector: low pay, withheld bonuses, mandatory unpaid overtime, limited career progression - the list goes on and on, none of it is surprising any more. It's little wonder the industry has a notoriously high turnover rate, with few employees sticking around beyond a few years. I highly suspect that's why you're a 'former' dev too (since we're making assumptions about people).

Jason Schreier has written a lot of retarded shit over his career, but for as much as he gets wrong, his exposés of working conditions have been personally cathartic. If it wasn't obvious enough that it's an industry-wide problem from just talking to my co-workers, it sure as hell becomes obvious after reading the depressingly familiar accounts from developers all over the world. I don't see how taking an interest in other people's situation is "intrusive and weirdly voyeuristic", unless you're sociopathic.

I also don't think people are suddenly becoming bleeding hearts just because it's their favorite dev in the crosshairs. If anything, it seems the opposite is true - people are often more likely to turn a blind eye when it's their favorite company involved. It was fun for example to shit on Activision Blizzard, since no one likes them any more. But as soon as the shoe is on the other foot and it's a developer people actually like, suddenly it's not a big deal and we should somehow feel bad for caring. Also:

Concern trolling bullshit at its finest.

Be honest, you really don't give a fuck.

Don't you think it comes off as being intrusive and weirdly voyeuristic to show such interest in other people's work and lifestyle conditions?

So do people care too much or do they care too little? Pick a lane lmao.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Okay slacktivists in this thread,

What are (we) or rather, you, going to do about it?

 

[RyRy93]

So I looked up some other companies.
Capcom has 2,9 stars, Sega has 2.9, Square has 3.0, Platinum games has 1.8 (lol), Koei Tecmo has 3.1, Bandai Namco 3.4 and Nintendo are the best that I could find at 3.7

FROM seems a bit lower but all of them except maybe Namco and Nintendo seem to be in a very similar range.

Also things to keep in mind after looking at the site:
- FROM has a pretty low number of reviews/reports (21. For reference capcom has 99, Square has 113 and Bandai Namco has over 200).
- Out of those 21 reports only 13 are proper reviews
- Out of those 13 reviews, 8 are from 2013 or earlier
- The newest reviews are from 2016, there's 5 of them and they all have a 3.5 score.

We can't have a big release without a group of nerds finding something to be outraged over, time to lock this one.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Video game industry and anime industry paying poorly if you're just another cog in the wheel? Not shocked.