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FromSoftware employees are not well treated. (based on decade old data)

daveonezero

Banned
Virtue signalling.

Reminds me of Reddit when they talk about Amazon. You just know the hypocritical cunts order stuff from them. Who do they think they are fooling?
They definitely use the internet. They aren't blocking AWS any time soon.

Also activism isn't an absolute. You can disagree and still use things.
 
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Sega Orphan

Banned
If that 29k is their average wage for the skillset they have, in Japan they are living on the poverty line. Surely that can't be true.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
If that 29k is their average wage for the skillset they have, in Japan they are living on the poverty line. Surely that can't be true.
I was thinking that too. So the survey says out of the laundry list of credits at the end of the game, the average programmer gets only $29k US. That means some actually make less than that, while some more to balance it out. So the typical game programmer there makes about $14.50/hr?

Considering how expensive it's supposed to be to live in Japan, I guess a lot of these programmers are all homeless.
 
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lachesis

Member
plus no inflation or companies rising prices of most products, so all kinda works somehow.

True, if they didn't have to compete vs growing economy around the world.

It rings true whenever I visit Japan, that a lot of Japan is stuck in the late Showa to early Heisei, almost like a time capsule... and I get a kick out of nostalgia from my youth in 80s-90s.
At the same time, I get very sad at seeing a dying country. 20-30 years ago, a visit to Japan felt like a luxury - but these days the trip feels more like a "bargain" due to their stagnated prices. It's the plane tickets that kills me, usually... but once I get there? It feels cheaper there than Korea, or certainly cheaper than NYC, especially food & services.

I remember an ad when... I could be wrong, but it was "gari gari kun" - an popular Ice candy or something along the line - raised the price, the entire company made a full page ad apologizing to the customers? It felt so foreign to me that in U.S. or any other countries - price hike due to inflation or cost of living rising, is just natural.

At one point, I did envy the stable nature of Japanese prices, but now realize that it is also a curse. In away, since their economy didn't grow - it's like they regressed because rest of the world moved on.

For example. Japanese folks now cannot outbid fish (like Tuna) in the international market. The ones with money, like China or S. Korea can afford more of that share.
30 years ago, Japan just dwarfed over China and S. Korea in terms of their economic power - but now their neighbors have more purchase power. Actually I think S. Korea just passed Japan in terms of purchasing power per capita, if I'm not mistaken.

Although I also think of even grimmer future for S. Korea due to their catastrophic birth rate, far lower than Japan - and I think of current popularity of Korean stuff - K-Pop, K Drama, etc would be remembered as their heyday, like early 90s Japan's Jp op, Anime and Video games, J drama etc. We just didn't get those here in the west, because world wasn't as connected like today.
 

NikuNashi

Member

Not a fix by any stretch, but they all did get a raise, apparantly.
From employees are not employees of Namco Bandai, Namco Bandai are only the publisher of ER. So I highly doubt any dev in From will benefit from the Namco Bandai blanket salary increase.

As someone who has been working in software development in Japan for over a decade I can say that most people are chronically underpaid compared to there foreign equivalents. Even in large multinational companies the folks at the Japan branch will be getting 30 ~ 50% less annual salary than US branch for example.

Its a shitty thing, a successful dev in Japan may still be living in a 1 room rented apartment even after working on very successful worldwide released products, its not correct at all. I hope this move by Namco Bandai pushes other Japanese devs or at the very least multinational devs with japanese offices to start levelling the playing field salary wise.
 
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Keihart

Member
True, if they didn't have to compete vs growing economy around the world.

It rings true whenever I visit Japan, that a lot of Japan is stuck in the late Showa to early Heisei, almost like a time capsule... and I get a kick out of nostalgia from my youth in 80s-90s.
At the same time, I get very sad at seeing a dying country. 20-30 years ago, a visit to Japan felt like a luxury - but these days the trip feels more like a "bargain" due to their stagnated prices. It's the plane tickets that kills me, usually... but once I get there? It feels cheaper there than Korea, or certainly cheaper than NYC, especially food & services.

I remember an ad when... I could be wrong, but it was "gari gari kun" - an popular Ice candy or something along the line - raised the price, the entire company made a full page ad apologizing to the customers? It felt so foreign to me that in U.S. or any other countries - price hike due to inflation or cost of living rising, is just natural.

At one point, I did envy the stable nature of Japanese prices, but now realize that it is also a curse. In away, since their economy didn't grow - it's like they regressed because rest of the world moved on.

For example. Japanese folks now cannot outbid fish (like Tuna) in the international market. The ones with money, like China or S. Korea can afford more of that share.
30 years ago, Japan just dwarfed over China and S. Korea in terms of their economic power - but now their neighbors have more purchase power. Actually I think S. Korea just passed Japan in terms of purchasing power per capita, if I'm not mistaken.

Although I also think of even grimmer future for S. Korea due to their catastrophic birth rate, far lower than Japan - and I think of current popularity of Korean stuff - K-Pop, K Drama, etc would be remembered as their heyday, like early 90s Japan's Jp op, Anime and Video games, J drama etc. We just didn't get those here in the west, because world wasn't as connected like today.
i kinda prefer that to the fake perpetual grow, japan has reached a balance that is not assured for many growing economies.
Not only that, but their economy is protected against international capital to some degree, so it's only a problem if they do let international capital take over their country.
 

Bkdk

Member
If this is true then it's bad news for workers, though it also shows the importance of capable leadership, if the leader is excellent, then they just need to hire lots of followers, thus bring down the cost of acquiring many other top talent.
 

EDMIX

Member
Japanese culture (I'm an expert) woefully undervalues software developers compared to the west, even when they're outputting a massively successful product. It's not a problem specific to FROM, and it's unlikely to be something that can change through western activism. The people making these brilliant games should be properly compensated and treated like the golden gods they are, but it's not a just world.

Agreed.

This is some sad shit.

I think more developers in the east should seek independent game development. Not much reason to really have a game publisher these days when you can crowd fund, go on social media, build a team of former developers etc. I hope things get better in the east with a new generation, as Japan's work culture is one of the saddest things I've ever witnessed in my life.

Theses games are not cheap and they are literally moving millions of units, game developers should be the last people on Earth receiving such a small paycheck for what they are making.
 
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Porcile

Member
A couple things to note:

Companies usually offer some pretty big twice yearly bonuses as standard though, and some other benefits like paying part of your rent if you live within a certain distance of the office.

Also the cost of rent and things in Japan is not skyhigh at all, and inflation is pretty low. Healthcare and other costs like this are not cripplingly expensive, so you can comfortably get by with a modest salary. At the end of the day, it's not like many people in Japan are living in 10 bedroom mansions with swimming pools. Even wealthy people live in modest size places and don't own expensive cars.
 
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Y0ssarian

Banned
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Didi mao!
 

sol_bad

Member
It's Japan so not surprising at all. Surely y'all have seen videos of Japanese programmers sleeping under their desks so they can work on the game as much as possible?
 

PeteBull

Member
As western shows, better you treat the dev, worst is the game.
We all waiting here for that Volcano High title that got delayed/suspended, and we demand they get paid like oil sheikhs since they go hard with woke agenda which is all it takes for game to be succesful ofc :p
IF everything goes as planned next in line is We are OFK, but lets not jynx it :)

They are lucky youtube doesnt show dislikes anymore but u can see in the comments general consensus of how shitty this game feels, by actual players nonetheless ^^
 
The results are there, imagine if they were not paid at all!

Now, those sounds fishy as the average salary in Japan is around 53k (according to the first result on Google)... How so they get away with paying talented people this little? Maybe the article misses something.
 

Soodanim

Member
So, having read most of the thread:

Someone desperate to disparage From to hijack their success for drama clicks puts out statistics as proof of poor work conditions

But the reviews are nearly all old and mostly by fixed term contract employees

And From employees in the present got pay rises/bonuses because of the success of Elden Ring

Is that about the long and short of it?
 

NickFire

Member
Feels like the people working there love their jobs based on how well they do them to me. We get countless articles about workplace complaints at game devs. We rarely get games of this quality. Something must be working right over there.
 

Sakura

Member
I'm not sure how useful this is. There are only 7 posts on that site showing their salaries, and most of them are from before Dark Souls 1 even came out (10+ years old). How representative is this information of From Soft today? They probably make a lot more money now. Working standards in general have also improved since then.
 

peronmls

Member
Bad programming equals bad pay. I do not see the reward earnings in their games on the programming side. They are just awful and need better netcode as well. A lot of people can code in Japan but apparently not well. Every other department should receive something rewarding though. Sorry.
 

IbizaPocholo

NeoGAFs Kent Brockman

Crunch culture is a well-documented problem in the games industry. FromSoftware’s home country of Japan also has a reputation for its toxic “karoshi” work culture and its sometimes fatal consequences. Thus, outside observers were primed to assume the worst when negative employee reviews of FromSoftwhere began circulating on Twitter. However, a recent report from GamesIndustry.biz indicates that the situation might not be as bad as it initially appeared. Contributor Geoffrey Bunting reached out to several members of FromSoftware’s staff, who spoke of some crunch and relatively low pay, but overall high employee satisfaction.

Current and former FromSoftware employees are contractually prevented from giving interviews, so all sources spoke under the condition of anonymity. Most interviewees described some level of crunch, though the amount seemed to vary from one department to another, with one source noting that their experience was not as extreme as in other industries. FromSoftware advertises flexible hours built around a core schedule of 11 am to 5 pm, and most staff don’t stay past 9 pm.

Pay seems to be a bit more contentious, however. Overtime is “included in the salary,” and employees are entitled to additional half-pay overtime after midnight. The latter is somewhat unusual, as most Japanese firms increase wages after midnight. FromSoftware employees typically take home the equivalent of about $25,000 a year. That is significantly less than the roughly $38,000 employees earn at the similarly-sized Atlas. The cost of living in Tokyo is also quite high relative to other parts of Japan, and many FromSoftware employees feel that the company’s pay is inadequate.

Despite the comments of many staff members, employee morale seems high. Even staff members who were critical of the pay and hours described spoke positively of the expertise and the satisfaction of working on AAA games with a group of passionate co-workers. One even compared the process of struggle and satisfaction to the experience of defeating a boss in Dark Souls. The cynically minded might suspect FromSoftware is taking advantage of its workers’ passion, but that didn’t seem to be a view held by the staff members themselves.
 
I think they said after the success of elden ring they would be raising their pay, not to mention they just got gargantuan investments from Sony and Tencent. Theres no excuse at this point.

For a studio that has been putting out 90+ rated games for over a decade on a bi-annual basis this should have happened a while ago
 
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lh032

I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
crunching is crucnhing, and FROM clearly weaponize the culture.

And low pay? come on its 2022. Its embarrassing. And their games are selling very well, wth man
 
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