Support NeoGAF

[Morrigan Stark]

I get that, it is just i am married to a stroke nurse and she deserves a shit ton of respect for doing the job she does.

You're right...I am out. Hope all goes well.

"I got shot at, then was locked up, by stupid incompetent cops. I almost died"
"Stop talking like that! I am married to a cop and they deserve a shit ton of respect for doing that job"

Yeaaaaah, no, OP doesn't need this shit right now.

Mineshaft.... I remember some of your posts and have thought you were a reasonable person. I'm curious about how you ended up with no insurance? I'm not one to criticize...I went through a gap myself(back when children age for insurance was more arbitrary and got my parents plan dropped me at 21). I'm just genuinely curious how Americans end up without insurance.

Are you not familiar with how insane the insurance system is in the US? If your job doesn't provide it for you, expect to pay a second rent worth of insurance, sometimes a lot more than that.

 

[Eye for an Eye]

I get that, it is just i am married to a stroke nurse and she deserves a shit ton of respect for doing the job she does.

I think you'd be able to see the failings of the doctors she had to deal with, and your wife probably would've been a lot better to handle what was happening to her. Not every one is great and not even one is horrible. Sometimes you just get the shit end of the stick.

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

Here's a PSA a regarding this whole ordeal. Regarding the dissection itself.

The pain emanated from deep inside the back of my neck. Obviously, especially with zero knowledge or vertebral artery dissection, it would be hard to pinpoint this sort of pain. With hindsight, the pain came from about exactly where you'd expect your vertebral arteries to feel like they would be. Google a picture of them.

For me, it wasn't a shooting pain and it wasn't a sharp pain. It started as an ache that I mistook for muscle pain. Naproxen had zero effect and I was told to avoid it in the future by my doctors. One of the signs to me that this pain was different was that no amount of rubbing my neck or resting my head made a difference. For neck muscle pain you wouldn't expect this to be the case.

I HAD FULL RANGE OF MOVEMENT IN MY NECK. If you have meningitis (especially bacterial) this is not the case and it's easily as big of an emergency if not a greater emergency. You should know the symptoms of meningitis even outside the context of these posts. I did not have a fever and I did not throw up until much later. I didn't suffer any symptoms indicative of a stroke (e.g. sensory or functional deficits) until hours later (after waking up from a nap).

I don't know what it's like for everyone but there came a point where the pain was scary and now, in retrospect, clearly not a normal every day sort of muscle ache. If I knew then what I knew now I would have made a B line to the emergency room. Be reasonable, obviously, don't be a hypochondriac and don't jump to conclusions, but don't ignore a pain you've never felt before at an intensity that's outside the realm of what you'd expect from a muscle spasm or strain. I figure there can't be any harm in popping an aspirin.

Lastly, the chances of this happening out of the blue with no injury is extremely rare. If a dissection happens to you it's likely because you got hurt and you know why. Trauma is what usually causes this. One of my doctors said they hadn't seen a case like mine in their 20 years of practicing medicine. That is to say, a dissection as big as mine without a clear trauma cause. People who get it suddenly out of the blue are usually painters (neck craned looking up all day) and people who go to chiropractors. PSA inception: don't go to chiropractors. They aren't doctors and they can fuck your shit up.

The stroke, that is, if I had to guess. I didn't feel that. I went to sleep and I woke up with the inability to swallow and a woozy feeling. That's the straw that broke the camels back and made me seek medical attention. But yeah, I didn't FEEL the stroke. Unless what happened earlier with the neck pain was the dissection AND a stroke. I'll have to ask my doctors what the likely time line was.

 

[Zoe]

Are you not familiar with how insane the insurance system is in the US? If your job doesn't provide it for you, expect to pay a second rent worth of insurance, sometimes a lot more than that.

Basic plans are between $200-300 on the exchange with no assistance.

 

[E92 M3]

Did they confirm which part of the brain was affected? It seems like the brainstem was hit, with your inability to swallow being the most telling sign.

 

[Linkura]

Yeah, you might be able to get COBRA retroactively still! It's definitely worth a shot.

Definitely look into this immediately. Do not delay. Not sure how long you've been without insurance, but there's a time limit, so don't delay.

 

[jiiikoo]

This thread brought up a lot of memories from my childhood when my mom had a brain hemorrhage. Glad you're okay!

 

[DR2K]

My roommate got a mild stroke in the area of his brain that controls speech, I'm currently teaching him the basics of language with lots of occupational therapy. Strokes suck. Thanks Obama, for the insurance.

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

Was your CT with or without contrast, and did ER doc 1 do a neurological exam?

My CT was with contrast and doc 1 did NOT perform a neurological exam in any way shape or form. I didn't even get so much as a "squeeze my fingers" which I think might have been the first thing they did at Emergency Room 2: Electromagnetic Imaging Machine Boogaloo.

Your case does not sound as clear-cut to me. I see many legitimate pit-falls to be explored, but if I would have been evaluating you first I would like to think I would have thrown you to the radiation gods very quickly [which I don't like to do] after neurologic exam and listening to your neck with my stethoscope, which would hopefully raise flags.

I don't recall anyone listening to my neck with a stethoscope for the entire 3-4 week duration of the hospital portion of this ordeal. The only time that the idea of a stroke was ever even taken seriously was after the second MRI caught it. The first ER however, was far more egregious. It's very possible I had further damage while in their care and they failed to do anything about it when I told them (losing hot/cold sensation in my right side).

Unfortunately things get missed, and unfortunately things can be complicated.

I had a missed diagnoses in an ER that I self-diagnosed myself with correctly prior to school. When I was admitted to another hospital, I had major drug administration mistake made against me that I advocated for, and wasn't resolved for 8 hours until after I developed significant symptoms. I also went for just shy of a week without food, and lost 35 pounds in the hospital! I was actually never hungry, thankfully.

You'll have to decide for yourself whether to take action on this or not, but I chose not to. However, I encourage you to think about that, and also other avenues that might lead to your bill being paid for without having to file for bankruptcy.

Best of luck with recovery and medical debt.

Thank you for the kind words. I have zero intention of paying for the first ER visit and will fight that battle legally if I need to. Insofar as the "good" hospital is concerned, I plan to negotiate every step of the way. I'm afraid of lodging formal complaints with regard to my diagnosis and general horrific treatment from the staff on the grounds that I feel there's the possibility my complaining could result in a hospital which is less willing to negotiate the bill. The way I see it, they have all the power. They aren't obligated to respond in any sort of way to my complaints and I fear they could be held against me when I ask for financial assistance.

 

[Farooq]

How are you feeling now?

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

Worse. Out of the hospital and off the more or less constant stream of ativan and dilaudid I've noticed the general warmness I've felt on my right side in addition to the numbness to hot and cold feels a lot different.

I still can't feel hot and cold but my right side feels cold even when it's not and feels painful despite not... actually... really feeling much. I don't know how to describe it but I'm very uncomfortable. It's especially bad if I have to stretch, in order to grab something in an awkward spot let's say. I was VERY uncomfortable when I had to grab something from the back seat of my car.

I really don't know how to describe it. How do you describe pain and numbness at the same time?

 

[E92 M3]

What is your current treatment plan?

 

[Morgan Blackhand]

I'll do you one better. My mother had a TIA, did not know what was going on or what it was but knew it was strange. After morning coffee when her left side was still having the strange tingly sensation you describe in the OP she went to the GP who recognized what she described as stroke like symptoms and she had to go to the hospital where he had called ahead she was coming. This is all in a Dutch hospital by the way.

There they kept took her in but kept her waiting for about 6 hours without giving her the ability to eat, mind you, she's diabetic. Eventually they gave her blood thinners and took her to the stroke ward for overnight observation.

There she woke up experiencing a stroke, pressed the emergency button calling for a nurse, telling her she's having a stroke. But the night-nurse insisted she wasn't because she came in with a stroke. The nurse won the battle as my mother could now suddenly not get out of bed anymore because she was severely paralyzed so the night nurse could go about her business.

The next day they found she now has severe brain damage, will never walk again even after spending a few months in a dedicated facility for recovering stroke victims. Before she was a healthy, active woman in her fifties with still some big plans in live.

TLDR: She had insurance, was already in a hospital, recognized her stroke, is now still paralyzed for live.

Sorry about your mom. This story made me so fucking angry. Fucking night nurse.

 

[Farooq]

Worse. Out of the hospital and off the more or less constant stream of ativan and dilaudid I've noticed the general warmness I've felt on my right side in addition to the numbness to hot and cold feels a lot different.

I still can't feel hot and cold but my right side feels cold even when it's not and feels painful despite not... actually... really feeling much. I don't know how to describe it but I'm very uncomfortable. It's especially bad if I have to stretch, in order to grab something in an awkward spot let's say. I was VERY uncomfortable when I had to grab something from the back seat of my car.

I really don't know how to describe it. How do you describe pain and numbness at the same time?

Sorry to hear that. I wouldn't know how to describe pain and numbness at the same time. Is it like you can't feel sensation of touch, but still feel pain in the surrounding area/underneath your skin?

 

[greepoman]

Are you not familiar with how insane the insurance system is in the US? If your job doesn't provide it for you, expect to pay a second rent worth of insurance, sometimes a lot more than that.

I'm fully aware ... My own example was when I had a gap when the drop age on my parents plan was 21. I went without for that very reason...The university's plan was a rip off that barely covered anything and cost more than I could afford on my stipend.

It's just good to have real life examples when debating people about these thing which is why I wanted the details. People are much more sympathetic to anecdotes rather than just trying to give generalizations.

 

[Korey]

Here's a PSA a regarding this whole ordeal. Regarding the dissection itself.

The pain emanated from deep inside the back of my neck. Obviously, especially with zero knowledge or vertebral artery dissection, it would be hard to pinpoint this sort of pain. With hindsight, the pain came from about exactly where you'd expect your vertebral arteries to feel like they would be. Google a picture of them.

For me, it wasn't a shooting pain and it wasn't a sharp pain. It started as an ache that I mistook for muscle pain. Naproxen had zero effect and I was told to avoid it in the future by my doctors. One of the signs to me that this pain was different was that no amount of rubbing my neck or resting my head made a difference. For neck muscle pain you wouldn't expect this to be the case.

I HAD FULL RANGE OF MOVEMENT IN MY NECK. If you have meningitis (especially bacterial) this is not the case and it's easily as big of an emergency if not a greater emergency. You should know the symptoms of meningitis even outside the context of these posts. I did not have a fever and I did not throw up until much later. I didn't suffer any symptoms indicative of a stroke (e.g. sensory or functional deficits) until hours later (after waking up from a nap).

I don't know what it's like for everyone but there came a point where the pain was scary and now, in retrospect, clearly not a normal every day sort of muscle ache. If I knew then what I knew now I would have made a B line to the emergency room. Be reasonable, obviously, don't be a hypochondriac and don't jump to conclusions, but don't ignore a pain you've never felt before at an intensity that's outside the realm of what you'd expect from a muscle spasm or strain. I figure there can't be any harm in popping an aspirin.

Lastly, the chances of this happening out of the blue with no injury is extremely rare. If a dissection happens to you it's likely because you got hurt and you know why. Trauma is what usually causes this. One of my doctors said they hadn't seen a case like mine in their 20 years of practicing medicine. That is to say, a dissection as big as mine without a clear trauma cause. People who get it suddenly out of the blue are usually painters (neck craned looking up all day) and people who go to chiropractors. PSA inception: don't go to chiropractors. They aren't doctors and they can fuck your shit up.

The stroke, that is, if I had to guess. I didn't feel that. I went to sleep and I woke up with the inability to swallow and a woozy feeling. That's the straw that broke the camels back and made me seek medical attention. But yeah, I didn't FEEL the stroke. Unless what happened earlier with the neck pain was the dissection AND a stroke. I'll have to ask my doctors what the likely time line was.

Wait, this is scaring me.

Yesterday I started getting this feeling like my left upper molar was having a toothache. Waking up today, my throat hurt when I swallowed. Eventually I started pressing my fingers against my throat (where you take your pulse) and I can feel a pain when I do that. I also had a small headache that came and went.

I'm trying to feel for a lump or something but I can't feel anything like that so I don't think it's a tumor. However, it hurts when I press against that spot where you take your pulse. Like I can feel my pulse strongly there. So I'm thinking that's the vertebral artery?

If I tilt my head to drink from the tap water, it hurts when I swallow. The pain is in the front-left area of my neck. Like in the area left and slightly behind my adam's apple.

Also, I haven't had any neck trauma that I know of.

This is scaring me...where should I go to get it checked out? I have health insurance. Am I supposed to go to the ER? Or make an appointment with my general family doctor? Or what?

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

Wait, this is scaring me.

Yesterday I started getting this feeling like my left upper molar was having a toothache. Waking up today, my throat hurt when I swallowed. Eventually I started pressing my fingers against my throat (where you take your pulse) and I can feel a pain when I do that. I also had a small headache that came and went.

I'm trying to feel for a lump or something but I can't feel anything like that so I don't think it's a tumor. However, it hurts when I press against that spot where you take your pulse. Like I can feel my pulse strongly there. So I'm thinking that's the vertebral artery?

If I tilt my head to drink from the tap water, it hurts when I swallow. The pain is in the front-left area of my neck. Like in the area left and slightly behind my adam's apple.

Also, I haven't had any neck trauma that I know of.

This is scaring me...where should I go to get it checked out? I have health insurance. Am I supposed to go to the ER? Or make an appointment with my general family doctor? Or what?

The chances of you having what I had are almost infinitesimally small. Hell, the chances of ME having what I had are extremely small. Without an injury preceding the dissection it's very unusual that the dissection would even take place.

Your symptoms sound nothing like mine. For me, it wasn't painful to swallow - it was not possible to swallow. Peristalsis was not taking place. Food was getting stuck at the back of my throat and I was aspirating liquids.

What you described doesn't sound like your vertebral artery. On the one hand, I'm not qualified to diagnosis your issue, but it doesn't sound like what I had at all. That said, if you're having a pain you've never had before and it's concerning you, you should make an appointment for sooner rather than later.

 

[Media]

Wait, this is scaring me.

Yesterday I started getting this feeling like my left upper molar was having a toothache. Waking up today, my throat hurt when I swallowed. Eventually I started pressing my fingers against my throat (where you take your pulse) and I can feel a pain when I do that. I also had a small headache that came and went.

I'm trying to feel for a lump or something but I can't feel anything like that so I don't think it's a tumor. However, it hurts when I press against that spot where you take your pulse. Like I can feel my pulse strongly there. So I'm thinking that's the vertebral artery?

If I tilt my head to drink from the tap water, it hurts when I swallow. The pain is in the front-left area of my neck. Like in the area left and slightly behind my adam's apple.

Also, I haven't had any neck trauma that I know of.

This is scaring me...where should I go to get it checked out? I have health insurance. Am I supposed to go to the ER? Or make an appointment with my general family doctor? Or what?

First off, deep breaths. The area yout are having pain in is full of glands that tend to get tender and swollen when you catch a bug, like something that would make your throat sore. You are most likely just coming down with something going around.

 

[DarknessTear]

Geez that sounded like my experience finding out I have MS but my MRI experience was a nightmare since I'm highly claustrophobic. Highly. Anyway glad it wasn't that. Spinal tap would have shown it.

 

[reggieandTFE]

This is terrifying and terrible. I really for you.

If I was you, I'd contact Healthcare for America Now! And share my story. It's important to get word out, especially at a critical time like this, when Trump and the Republicans are planning on stripping benefits away from 20 million more people.

There's also a chance that the hospitals might relieve some of your debt to public shaming.

If you don't want to go that route, please contact the hospital billing department and be tough and request a copy of their charity care policy. Most hospitals are organized as non-profits in the us and pay very low taxes in exchange for providing services to the community. They often try to not publicize and make difficult what their charity care programs look like (while they are generally paying their CEOs $1million+ to boot).

 

[E92 M3]

Any updates, Mineshaft?

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

I'm overwhelmed by bills. The worst part by far is calling each individual doctor's billing dept to say that I won't be able to pay.

It's not as if my expenses have ended. I need to get a protime/INR test done on a weekly basis that costs me about $55 out of pocket. Completely outside of expenses related to the hospital visit I'm going to be nickle and dimed by co-pays, prescription costs, and these weekly INR labs. Possibly physical therapy as well.

I haven't finished the "story" so to speak because I feel like I kind of spoiled it with the TLR summary for that one guy. Plus, it's a lot of effort to write and I don't want to bump the thread with a post that takes an hour+ to write if the interest isn't really there + I'm not in a place to write it.

I have to write something for the hospital for them to consider helping me with the hospital costs. I can't help but feel like it's the highest stakes essay contest I'll ever participate in. If I write a compelling essay saying why I can't pay a hundred thousand dollars or whatever for my hospital stay and it ends up being good it'll be as if I won (or should I say, saved) thousands upon thousands of dollars.

Sleep makes a huge difference. As in, if I don't get enough I feel exponentially worse post-stroke symptoms.

 

[someday]

I've just read through this thread and I'd be interested in reading more if you're up for writing it. It's so infuriating but after working in hospitals for 20 years (x-ray/CT tech) I believe it all. There are fantastic doctors, nurses, and medical personnel but there are shit ones too. Everyone who works in the medical field knows this too so it's not an insult. I've had awful experiences with doctors myself (misdiagnosing cluster headaches and telling me I had tension headaches and to take a couple of aspirin, lay down, and think "happy thoughts.") Yeah, didn't work and caused me to have to suffer with them during AIT since I thought I was over-reacting. Took 5 years and several cycles for an Internist to do some research with me and figure out the actual cause.

 

[Grimalkin]

I'm overwhelmed by bills. The worst part by far is calling each individual doctor's billing dept to say that I won't be able to pay.

It's not as if my expenses have ended. I need to get a protime/INR test done on a weekly basis that costs me about $55 out of pocket. Completely outside of expenses related to the hospital visit I'm going to be nickle and dimed by co-pays, prescription costs, and these weekly INR labs. Possibly physical therapy as well.

I haven't finished the "story" so to speak because I feel like I kind of spoiled it with the TLR summary for that one guy. Plus, it's a lot of effort to write and I don't want to bump the thread with a post that takes an hour+ to write if the interest isn't really there + I'm not in a place to write it.

I have to write something for the hospital for them to consider helping me with the hospital costs. I can't help but feel like it's the highest stakes essay contest I'll ever participate in. If I write a compelling essay saying why I can't pay a hundred thousand dollars or whatever for my hospital stay and it ends up being good it'll be as if I won (or should I say, saved) thousands upon thousands of dollars.

Sleep makes a huge difference. As in, if I don't get enough I feel exponentially worse post-stroke symptoms.

Mineshaft, please go get a consultation with a lawyer who specializes in this sort of thing a.s.a.p. They can most likely get you out of these bills. I won't go into great detail but I had a family member who had over one million dollars in hospital bills. They hired a lawyer and the lawyer got all the bills forgiven. It is worth it to pay a lawyer a few grand to get out from under the debt.

Not to mention you have a case against the first hospital.

Don't just take it from the hospital, doctors, etc. You have options. Do you have anyone you can trust that can help you navigate all of this?

 

[Korey]

The chances of you having what I had are almost infinitesimally small. Hell, the chances of ME having what I had are extremely small. Without an injury preceding the dissection it's very unusual that the dissection would even take place.

Your symptoms sound nothing like mine. For me, it wasn't painful to swallow - it was not possible to swallow. Peristalsis was not taking place. Food was getting stuck at the back of my throat and I was aspirating liquids.

What you described doesn't sound like your vertebral artery. On the one hand, I'm not qualified to diagnosis your issue, but it doesn't sound like what I had at all. That said, if you're having a pain you've never had before and it's concerning you, you should make an appointment for sooner rather than later.

Ok, thank you that makes me feel better. You're right, maybe I'm getting mixed up with the arteries then. In any case your story freaked me out. Hope you get better.

First off, deep breaths. The area yout are having pain in is full of glands that tend to get tender and swollen when you catch a bug, like something that would make your throat sore. You are most likely just coming down with something going around.

Yea you're probably right, thanks.

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

UPDATE: I met with an attorney yesterday regarding the first emergency room visit. He seems to think that there's a case and he is willing to accept it on contingency.

Same goes for the other two (bigger) lawyers I've consulted. I'm not sure how to select an attorney but it seems all of them agree that there's a case worth pursuing on contingency.

The big gray area is whether or not it would have made a difference to my overall condition had the first ER caught on to the fact that I was having a stroke. AKA, what are (if there are) the damages that resulted from their (in)action.

So when I make my appointment with my neurologist the first lawyer I spoke to gave me several questions to ask. I haven't necessarily told him that I want him to take my case yet. I haven't entered into any sort of agreement. I need to choose which of these lawyers I want representing me.

 

[Media]

UPDATE: I met with an attorney yesterday regarding the first emergency room visit. He seems to think that there's a case and he is willing to accept it on contingency.

Same goes for the other two (bigger) lawyers I've consulted. I'm not sure how to select an attorney but it seems all of them agree that there's a case worth pursuing on contingency.

The big gray area is whether or not it would have made a difference to my overall condition had the first ER caught on to the fact that I was having a stroke. AKA, what are (if there are) the damages that resulted from their (in)action.

So when I make my appointment with my neurologist the first lawyer I spoke to gave me several questions to ask. I haven't necessarily told him that I want him to take my case yet. I haven't entered into any sort of agreement. I need to choose which of these lawyers I want representing me.

Good luck hon, I really hope you can get something out of it. I should have sued when my last hospital emergency occurred for not listening to me as well.

 

[WaffleTaco]

UPDATE: I met with an attorney yesterday regarding the first emergency room visit. He seems to think that there's a case and he is willing to accept it on contingency.

Same goes for the other two (bigger) lawyers I've consulted. I'm not sure how to select an attorney but it seems all of them agree that there's a case worth pursuing on contingency.

The big gray area is whether or not it would have made a difference to my overall condition had the first ER caught on to the fact that I was having a stroke. AKA, what are (if there are) the damages that resulted from their (in)action.

So when I make my appointment with my neurologist the first lawyer I spoke to gave me several questions to ask. I haven't necessarily told him that I want him to take my case yet. I haven't entered into any sort of agreement. I need to choose which of these lawyers I want representing me.

I really hope you manage to get some money for this. You've been through so much =(

 

[Grimalkin]

UPDATE: I met with an attorney yesterday regarding the first emergency room visit. He seems to think that there's a case and he is willing to accept it on contingency.

Same goes for the other two (bigger) lawyers I've consulted. I'm not sure how to select an attorney but it seems all of them agree that there's a case worth pursuing on contingency.

The big gray area is whether or not it would have made a difference to my overall condition had the first ER caught on to the fact that I was having a stroke. AKA, what are (if there are) the damages that resulted from their (in)action.

So when I make my appointment with my neurologist the first lawyer I spoke to gave me several questions to ask. I haven't necessarily told him that I want him to take my case yet. I haven't entered into any sort of agreement. I need to choose which of these lawyers I want representing me.

I'm so happy for you, Mineshaft. If nothing else, they can help you negotiate the bills.

Because all three are willing to work on contingency, that's a good sign for your civil case. As far as who to go with, you want someone with a lot of experience and has a good record either winning trials or getting good settlements.

 

[GregLombardi]

Yeah there is definitely a case against the first hospital if the medical records are there. Not properly guiding you toward stroke possibilities likely cost you dearly.

 

[Tomita]

Congrats, Mineshaft! I have no idea myself how to go about picking a lawyer, but maybe LawyerGAF can help you out (if they aren't already helping you privately on PM, of course). I really hope you reach success in this matter.

 

[How About No]

F yeah mineshaft