Dust-by-Monday
Member
You’re right. I started with playing R&C again last night and it’s massively better than the 2016 version. Other than the RT being a little streaky, it looks really good. I thought Spider-Man’s RT looked better.
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I miss being blown away by new-gen graphics....
- Thread starter Dust-by-Monday
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T0minator
Member
Yup its definitely a jump between Ratchet on PS4 and PS5.
We should hopefully see less CGI trailers for this generation at the game awards and more in-game
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Real-HipHopGamer
Neo Member
Did You Play RATCHET & CLANK: RIFT APART? That's The Best Looking Game EVER MADE So Far, Did You Play Miles Morales On PS5, Like these games are ground breaking, what type of setup do you play on cause that also will determine how the graphics of games look as well
NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt
Gold Member
It might be diminishing returns.
For me it is. I have a PC for 5 years that's basically a PS5. So been gaming on that and don't see much of an improvement in the next gen consoles
PerfectDark
Banned
ps4 and xbox one were the worst consoles of any generation. If they wowed you in anyway your young and missed the early 2000s.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Yeah its a shame there was not somthing more "next gen" at launch, probably because everything is made with gen8 tools. The folks at digital foundry do like to point out that the geometric detail/density of games like rift apart + demon souls is "next gen" but these things are very scalable as shown in FH5.
Nothing we have seen visually from current gen exclusives are things which cant be scaled up from a gen 8 game.
For example you could take a game like RDR2, you could add parallax occlusion maps, cone step mapping, tessalation, ray traced or svoggi global illumination, more sophisticated particle,smoke and fluid effects, high res textures and higher geometric density and it would look every bit as "next gen" as a rift apart or demon souls.
This is the first time something like this has happened, you could take a game like uncharted 3 and add uncharted 4 lighting + effects but the base geometry of the characters and environments would still look like a PS3 game.
This is the first gen when the "next gen" exclusives visual improvement are tacked on visual features on geometry + models that look like there from the previous gen.
Diminishing returns is one of the reasons for this, the main character model in demon Souls remake has more polygons then kratos from GOW but does not look that much better because visuals had got to the point where there is enough polygons to make realistic environments and models.
Nothing we have seen visually from current gen exclusives are things which cant be scaled up from a gen 8 game.
For example you could take a game like RDR2, you could add parallax occlusion maps, cone step mapping, tessalation, ray traced or svoggi global illumination, more sophisticated particle,smoke and fluid effects, high res textures and higher geometric density and it would look every bit as "next gen" as a rift apart or demon souls.
This is the first time something like this has happened, you could take a game like uncharted 3 and add uncharted 4 lighting + effects but the base geometry of the characters and environments would still look like a PS3 game.
This is the first gen when the "next gen" exclusives visual improvement are tacked on visual features on geometry + models that look like there from the previous gen.
Diminishing returns is one of the reasons for this, the main character model in demon Souls remake has more polygons then kratos from GOW but does not look that much better because visuals had got to the point where there is enough polygons to make realistic environments and models.
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Dust-by-Monday
Member
Forget about models for a second. What we need is ray traced global illumination, features like nanite for infinite detail into the distance and destructible environments with advanced weather systems with realistic wind/rain/dust/smoke. Then games will look much different than they do now. Just upgrading textures and making everything 4K/60 is not next gen.
I think the Kratos model looks much BETTER than the Demon's Souls knight avatar, personally.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
I never said it was lol. You even read my post?
svbarnard
Banned
I think it's going to be a few years before we see the true potential of next gen consoles, so check it out the GPU of the series X/S is based on AMD RDNA2. RDNA2 is supposed to bring to the table the biggest change to GPUs in 20 years, it's called mesh shaders, apparently it's going to change how GPUs compute. There is no game right now that you can play that is using mesh shaders because they have to literally remake their game engines to support it which is going to take a couple years. Mesh shaders once adopted will apparently double the performance of the series X/S's GPU.
lordsofgaming.net
Apparently the PS5's design was frozen before AMD completed their work on RDNA2 this is why the PS5 will not be getting native support for mesh shaders. Mesh shaders will supposedly revolutionize graphics. It's like I said I think it's going to be a few years before we see some true next-gen graphics. I do expect to see some amazing stuff that wasn't possible on the previous hardware.
Xbox Series X Mesh Shaders Advanced Culling Cuts Rendering Time -
Xbox Series X supports all RDNA 2 features. One of the features that should bring significant performance boost in games is Mesh Shaders.
lordsofgaming.net
Apparently the PS5's design was frozen before AMD completed their work on RDNA2 this is why the PS5 will not be getting native support for mesh shaders. Mesh shaders will supposedly revolutionize graphics. It's like I said I think it's going to be a few years before we see some true next-gen graphics. I do expect to see some amazing stuff that wasn't possible on the previous hardware.
jezhumphrey75
Banned
whats your location?
GymWolf
Member
Demons models are nothing specials for a nextgen only game, the locations are the real stars.
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TrebleShot
Member
Isn't this implemented on the PS5 via geometry engine? could be wrong Im not that techie, but I seem to remember them saying they would implement their own solution much like Tempest vs Dolby Atmos.I think it's going to be a few years before we see the true potential of next gen consoles, so check it out the GPU of the series X/S is based on AMD RDNA2. RDNA2 is supposed to bring to the table the biggest change to GPUs in 20 years, it's called mesh shaders, apparently it's going to change how GPUs compute. There is no game right now that you can play that is using mesh shaders because they have to literally remake their game engines to support it which is going to take a couple years. Mesh shaders once adopted will apparently double the performance of the series X/S's GPU.
Xbox Series X Mesh Shaders Advanced Culling Cuts Rendering Time -
Xbox Series X supports all RDNA 2 features. One of the features that should bring significant performance boost in games is Mesh Shaders.
Apparently the PS5's design was frozen before AMD completed their work on RDNA2 this is why the PS5 will not be getting native support for mesh shaders. Mesh shaders will supposedly revolutionize graphics. It's like I said I think it's going to be a few years before we see some true next-gen graphics. I do expect to see some amazing stuff that wasn't possible on the previous hardware.
svbarnard
Banned
Yes but mesh shaders on series X/S are hardware accelerated whereas it's not hardware accelerated on the PS5. Therefore whatever implementation they do on the PS5 it's going to be inferior to the Xbox.
A Most Virtuous Cat
Banned
I agree with you; there are many reasons for this: cross-gen, lack of passion, yearly releases, lack of talented devs, identity politics at workplace, false accusations, etc. All of this nets crappy games with no real ambition or wow factor.
Having said that, honestly I did get that next gen vibe with Demons Souls.
Having said that, honestly I did get that next gen vibe with Demons Souls.
I know this post is rather old, but quoting this for the truth! Features like those would incredibly enhance games, arguably more so than full path tracing or anything else. (Same goes, to a lesser extent, for character animations)
Having said that, it feels like we're still really, really far away from tangible improvements.
Liquid simulations look cool, but you'll notice pretty much all videos are in fairly small, confined spaces (cubes). Or, if it's in more open environments, the water just tends to disappear into nowhere rather quickly.
For dynamic destruction.. It's all voxel based, and voxel games still seem to be far far away from reaching an acceptable visual quality.
The problem with both is that there doesn't seem to be any clever work around on the horizon that would solve these issues without throwing incredible amounts of compute and memory on them. Maybe, and it's a very big maybe, AI can eventually help. Otherwise, I feel like we'll need to wait 10 years or such to see those things in non tech demo games
TrebleShot
Member
Hmmm I don't believe that is the case, the Geometry Engine is hardware based, just its Sony hardware/implementation and the rumour is it will be implemented in RDNA 3 natively by AMD (did some reading this morning).
XSX implements hardware based Mesh Shaders which are natively part of the current RDNA 2 AMD solution, essentially they are one and the same, that's what google returns.
Alex from DF seemed to think the difference between the two would be fairly minor and in any case would take a long time to materialise, 2024 or 2025 or so.
So I wouldn't pin your hopes on it being the thing that'll eventually blow the PS5 out of the water.
What about the fact that back in the 90s and early 2000s, we at least had examples of where graphics were eventually heading?
When the Dreamcast released, there were arcade games that looked waaaaay better than anything on the PS1 or Saturn.
When the 360 released, games like Half Life 2 or Far Cry on PC were a generation ahead of anything on a PS2.
Hell, even last gen, there was Crysis that sort of pointed the way.
This time, there's basically nothing. Arcades are dead, and nobody makes games for PC as the lead platform now. I still really have no idea what a next gen game will look like, and we're a year in!
Will we eventually get the Unreal 5 demo in an actual game? Or more like the original bs footage of The Division? Or the bs footage of Anthem? I really have no idea yet. Based roughly on Ratchet and Horizon, I'm thinking, yes, probably something like that Anthem footage. But who knows.
And surely the fact that new consoles are much more pioneering than they used to be will make it easier for them to continue providing impressive upgrades, won't it?
Not Sure what people expect. Graphics are pretty good. We will get better graphics of course but we dont have a Problem when a game looks great.
We have a Problem with graphics today when we have a location or something that does not have alot of strong colours. We can Do pretty jungles but a street and rocks still look bad. Ray tracing is a way to get more out of every possible scenario. Thats the big win. We should not compare the best moments of games but the worst ones. For me those are the immersion Killers. The Highlights are good enough for me, for now.
This gen will bring amazing Things but like every gen we are still limited. Real fully powered ray tracing is far away. When next gen hits it should be possible but not for the next few years. Quake 2 rtx is a Monster and eats even high end cards Alive. Now imagine that kinda Performance hunk on modern games.
We have a Problem with graphics today when we have a location or something that does not have alot of strong colours. We can Do pretty jungles but a street and rocks still look bad. Ray tracing is a way to get more out of every possible scenario. Thats the big win. We should not compare the best moments of games but the worst ones. For me those are the immersion Killers. The Highlights are good enough for me, for now.
This gen will bring amazing Things but like every gen we are still limited. Real fully powered ray tracing is far away. When next gen hits it should be possible but not for the next few years. Quake 2 rtx is a Monster and eats even high end cards Alive. Now imagine that kinda Performance hunk on modern games.
Three Jackdaws
Banned
I've seen people here argue we're at the stage of diminishing returns and that next-gen will be defined by higher resolutions and frame-rates. I think that's absolutely false. The Unreal Engine 5 demos is proof of this, it's some of the best looking gameplay we've ever seen and no one even saw it coming. It's photo-realism and it's not even doing any funny tricks, as Mark Cerny said "the idea behind this technology (Nanite) is that no matter how far you zoom into something no matter how close you get to something, you're seeing like the real world more and more detail". It's a good guess to say there are perhaps several studios already working on triple A projects using UE5 but it's a fairly new release so we won't be seeing such titles for another year or two (at worst).
It's also fair to speculate that there are several other studios working on next-gen iterations of their engines, Assassin's Creed Odyssey which I'm currently playing now looks gorgeous in 60FPS and HDR, although there flaws which are minor but noticeable to the trained eye, like texture and foliage pop-in, lighting bugs. The terrain, rocks and environments also lack a lot of detail at times but again these are nit picks, but my point is a game like this (and many others) could get a huge uplift through micro-polygon rendering technologies similar to Nanite and Virtual Texturing, it's also plausible to say that the Ubisoft developers might already be working on such technologies although I'm not 100% sure since it was announced that AC would be going in a different direction, there's also other studios as well like Rockstar who all their faults still go after bleeding edge visuals in all their titles.
We already can count on Sony's first parties delivering on next-gen goodness, look at what was achieved in terms of visuals on games like God of War (2018), Ghost of Tsushima and Last of Us 2, I do think we'll get that moment similar to last-gen when Naughty Dog revealed Uncharted 4 which is still one of the best looking games to date. Now imagine what such developers could achieve on hardware which is at least 2.5x more powerful and not bottlenecked by the CPU or the slow streaming speeds of clunky a HDD.
It's just a matter of patience, so many game developments and productions were hit hard by covid, which means a lot of delays. I do think we'll see some mind-blowing stuff by the end of next-year.
It's also fair to speculate that there are several other studios working on next-gen iterations of their engines, Assassin's Creed Odyssey which I'm currently playing now looks gorgeous in 60FPS and HDR, although there flaws which are minor but noticeable to the trained eye, like texture and foliage pop-in, lighting bugs. The terrain, rocks and environments also lack a lot of detail at times but again these are nit picks, but my point is a game like this (and many others) could get a huge uplift through micro-polygon rendering technologies similar to Nanite and Virtual Texturing, it's also plausible to say that the Ubisoft developers might already be working on such technologies although I'm not 100% sure since it was announced that AC would be going in a different direction, there's also other studios as well like Rockstar who all their faults still go after bleeding edge visuals in all their titles.
We already can count on Sony's first parties delivering on next-gen goodness, look at what was achieved in terms of visuals on games like God of War (2018), Ghost of Tsushima and Last of Us 2, I do think we'll get that moment similar to last-gen when Naughty Dog revealed Uncharted 4 which is still one of the best looking games to date. Now imagine what such developers could achieve on hardware which is at least 2.5x more powerful and not bottlenecked by the CPU or the slow streaming speeds of clunky a HDD.
It's just a matter of patience, so many game developments and productions were hit hard by covid, which means a lot of delays. I do think we'll see some mind-blowing stuff by the end of next-year.
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Iamborghini
Member
One day in late 1990 when I was playing Gran Turismo on my shiny new PS1, a friend of my dad came home and he was blown away by the graphics of this game, he told me he thought it was real. Until he noticed pixelated textures and the HUD. And here we are today, pretending the graphics can’t be better.
Doom Eternal looks WORSE than 2016.
It doesn't look like that on consoles.
I enjoy FC games a lot, when I was watching the DF review I thought Cuba didn't look as good as Montana in FC5, this made me hold my purchase until it hits $30 or less.
I agree.
Everything looks the same as the PS4 gen except at 60FPS.
I also think we're reaching diminishing returns - largely because PS4/Xbox One cutscenes and cinematics look very good. We are certainly seeing better graphics in gameplay on the PS5 and X1X, however, because we've seen it already, we're not impressed.
The last time I was truly impressed by a game's graphics was God Of War on the PS4. Ragnarok on the other hand looks exactly the fucking same yet it's on a console which is supposedly 5-10x stronger.
Umbasaborne
Banned
I think part of the issue is having to design for multiple console options. Instead of highly tailored graphical show cases we are getting “do you want nice frames or pretty reflections like you are on a big boy pc?”
Dust-by-Monday
Member
Well, Ragnarok is using a last gen engine built to run on PS4, so it's no surprise that it looks the same. You're not going to see a massive difference until developers ditch last gen.
Look at COD Ghosts on PS4 vs Infinite Warfare. Massive jump visually. Too bad studios are still pumping out cross-gen stuff even a full year later.
From what I remember, PS4 had only 1 cross-gen COD title (Ghosts).
Anyways, I digress.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Ragnarok looks the same because its cross gen.
Dust-by-Monday
Member
That's part of the problem. A lot of people bought the PS5 to be the "60fps machine" that they always wanted and they CAN'T and WILL NOT go back to 30fps EVER AGAIN because it makes them physically sick. However, that's going to mean that games just won't look much better than slightly souped up PS4 games.
The downgrade in resolution is just too much in Rift Apart to make Performance RT the best mode. I played it on Fidelity and it really is a spectacle, but I also believe in time, it will be even BETTER than that.
Also, we're to a point where we can't tell based on a trailer if we're seeing CGI or real-time in-game cutscenes... and even if it's in-game, it's all subject to change by the time it's released due to optimizations and developmental issues. They have a "vision", but they're not always able to live up to the early trailers they show. It even happened on The Last of Us Part 2.
Yeah, I dunno if it's just cliches like "diminishing returns" stopping people from thinking, natural pessimism, or perhaps some desire to appear sophisticated and sceptical, but the idea that there aren't large advances left is just kind of weird.
The Unreal 5 demo was probably the single most impressive generational showcase I've ever seen. It was a quantum leap. Do people just think that's not possible in proper games (a reasonable concern), or are they just not impressed regardless (bizarre)?
But even if you were just sceptical that that can be achieved this gen, you could still appreciate that it's a huge advance that will EVENTUALLY be possible.
And that's just one piece of evidence. Pretty much every piece of modern CGI also shows just how far there is to go in real time graphics.
Assuming we continue getting physical console generations, I'd guess we've got 2 big generational leaps left before diminishing returns become a powerful phenomenon. Roughly speaking, we need full RT and properly alive worlds with convincing physical simulations of fluids, particles, weather, destruction etc, before we start bumping up against reality.
Just out of interest, what size screen did you play Ratchet on and how far away from it were you?
I had similar issues when I was sitting very close to my 65" screen (I think roughly 6ft away). There was a big difference between fidelity and performance RT: the latter still looked good but it was missing enough 'pop' that in the end I just played in the regular performance mode with no RT.
Then I rearranged my setup so I'm about 8ft away now, and the problem disappeared COMPLETELY. I was really surprised. I can't really tell the difference between native 4k and 1440p now. Maybe if I was pushed. But it's a negligible difference.
I guess I'm just surprised at how binary it was. At one distance, major difference. Increase that distance by a third: virtually no difference.
I've been playing all my multiplatform games on the PC for the past 5 years due to low resolution and FPS on consoles. Nonetheless, I'm not at all impressed by whatever is out on the PS5 (except Demon Souls and Ratchet and Clank).
I've got a 2070 Super and I've got no reason to upgrade it so far - I can comfortably run every single game on the market at present.
Even Halo Infinite looks average - despite running it maxed out.
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Dust-by-Monday
Member
I play on a 27 inch monitor and even sitting back a few feet I can easily tell the difference between 4K and 1440p. The downgrade was just too much for me. It lost that crisp image and it was even more apparent in motion because of motion detail of 60fps.
Can you give a layman like me some idea of the likely impact? Is it more like enabling much higher geometric detail (which already looks very high in Ratchet) or doing similar work at a lower cost?
MikeM
Member
Potential for 1500% to 1800% performance increase.
https://www.game-debate.com/news/30...urrent-graphics-cards-by-up-to-a-massive-1800
If you search reddit on the subject, some of the benchmark scores are pretty insane.
Take with a grain of salt, but it appears that this will provide the next big leap in fidelity and performance.
What the fuck? That's insane.
Even conservatively, that's like a generational advance on its own.
Is that really plausible?
MikeM
Member
Seems like it. Thats why that UE5 demo on PS5 was possible at such high fidelity due to the usage of primitive shaders.
To me, the future of these consoles, and gaming in general, will take a huge leap both in fidelity and performance. When people say the consoles aren’t being used anywhere near what they are supposed to, they are not wrong.
just_like_that
Member
eh i mean for now yeah but my guess is e3 next year we'll see something truly special.
EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Spider-Man really resonated with me and is a real next generation game.
Three Jackdaws
Banned
From interviews with Epic developers, they’ve stated that UE5 uses what they call “hyper optimised compute shaders”, and also Primitive Shaders. However Epic have stated their own solution beats the Primitive/Mesh Shaders by a huge margin, I think something like 4x which is insane.
However there’s is an important caveat which is Epic’s Nanite solution only works with static geometry where as Primitive and Mesh Shaders are a lot more flexible and can be used for different workloads other than just geometry.
But yes the performance gains Primitive/Mesh Shaders provide are nuts. Although I wouldn’t expect developers to start leveraging them until the second wave of games.
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Would it even matter at that point though?
If those gains are anything like true then presumably we can expect incredibly detailed worlds like Ratchet, RT GI like Metro Exodus, and all at 4k60. I'd say just that would be the most impressive generational advance I can remember, even if we didn't get quite the ludicrous level of detail in that UE5 demo.
midasmulligan
Member
2/3s of you guys game on a 1080p screen and can’t tell the difference between 60/30 fps 
…and we’re talking about what, next gen tessellation and RT. Or, let’s talk about how you haven’t been blown away by the progress in quantum computing while you pluck away on your MS Surface…
edit: that was unfair, *Surface Pro
…and we’re talking about what, next gen tessellation and RT. Or, let’s talk about how you haven’t been blown away by the progress in quantum computing while you pluck away on your MS Surface…edit: that was unfair, *Surface Pro
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ToTTenTranz
Banned
Of course not. At least not in an actual gaming load.
3DMark feature tests are designed to have that very feature as a massive, artificial bottleneck.
That's why we see some 60-70% performance upgrades in 3DMark's VRS test, but in actual games the difference is lower than 5%. VRS 2 might give an additional boost in some scenarios where the GPU is shader-limited, but it's probably not that much more. Otherwise Activision wouldn't be using their own compute-based VRS claiming it works better than whatever is in the consoles.
Mesh shaders in the Series X == Primitve Shaders on the PS5. It's the same hardware capability. And on the PS5 AFAIK they've been used in most 1st-party titles like Demon's Souls 2020 and Rift Apart, as they're already exposed in the devkit. We also got confirmation directly from Epic that the UE5 demo "Lumen in the Land of Nanite" from May 2020 is using PS5's Primitive Shaders.
But mesh shaders are never going to be holy grails that give 500% performance boosts to future games. They're just a faster method to do triangle culling and LODing but even those aren't without their limitations, considering UE5's Nanite resorts to compute shaders for smaller triangles.
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