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[Guilty_AI]

How is that any different than most action games? Heck in Bloodborne you also have time your dodge or parry correctly.....enemy attacks and you respond correctly, which is true with most action games.

A good action game has proper hitboxes.Like i said before, AC6 is a great example of it being done correctly. If an enemy swings a sword at you, the sword HAS TO HIT YOU for you to suffer damage.

The perilous attacks in Sekiro don't work like that. If you're within X distance of the enemy and you don't press the correct button, you're dead meat no matter what. Other Souls games have similar problems with certain types of attacks, but nowhere as egregious as it was in Sekiro.

 

[Ogbert]

Bloodborne’s 27 fps pacing jank automatically disqualifies it.

 

[Danjin44]

Then you are literally part of the problem and why this industry is going to shit. Because a dev makes a type of game and then we get inundated with endless clones and everyone claps.
Also, fuck off, you dont tell me where and what to write, it's a forum so I've given my opinion, regardless of how blunt it was.

You are more than free not like something but "industry is going to shit" why? because they making you personally dont like? come fuck on! Go play games you do enjoy.

Like i said before, AC6 is a great example of it. If an enemy swings a sword at you, the sword HAS TO HIT YOU for you to suffer damage.
The perilous attacks in Sekiro don't work like that. If you're within X distance of the enemy and you don't press the correct button, you're dead meat no matter what. Other Souls games have similar problems with certain types of attacks, but nowhere as egregious as it was in Sekiro.

You are comparing Mecha game to sword combat action game in Sekiro. in AC6 you can't avoid all attacks (its VERY hard), so your job is minimize the amount of damage you take, this why you can S rank mission even if do you take some damage.

 

[Ogbert]

I'm probably alone on this, but for me Bloodborne is by far the worst Souls game and Sekiro is, if not my favorite, the most well rounded and polished. Not sure if it's the best game ever, but could be the best action game ever.

Couldn’t agree more.

I’ll get flamed for this, but I’ve always suspected that a significant portion of the BB love is down to the fact that it’s a PS exclusive. Frame rate is balls.

Sekiro, in contrast, is perfect. I understand the criticism that it doesn’t offer the breadth of play styles. You basically have one way to play the game and you better get good at it.

But it is fucking incredible.

 

[Guilty_AI]

You are comparing Mecha game to sword combat action game in Sekiro. in AC6 you can't avoid all attacks (its VERY hard), so your job is minimize the amount of damage you take, this why you can S rank mission even if do you take some damage.

But the point is, you can. Attacks are actual physical attacks, not "trigger damage animation if you're within X radious of the enemy" bullshit. Its the same difference between hitscan shots and projectiles in a shooter.

 

[Strider311]

i unironically believe this. i did my 6th Bloodbrone run few weeks ago and finished my 4th Sekiro run last night.
these two games are gaming at purest form: beautiful, unforgiving, and Addicting. these two give me a weird nostolgic feeling of the early 90s games where everything was very hard and feel very new.
no matter how many new amazing games come out these days, no matter how good they are, they never actually stuck with me. i'll be "yeah this was great" and forget about it the next day. but not these two , they are the only games that i EVER replayed and continue to replay. Especially bloodborne. Bloodborne awakened something primal in me that i don't really understand, but as a huge horror/lovecraft fan i feel like this game was litreally made for me.
i love you Hidetaka Miyazaki

I already loved Bloodborne but came back to Sekiro this year. It didn’t really click with me at release time, but this time it did. The mechanics and how to properly play solidified in my brain and I came to the realization that it really is perfect combat distilled into its purest form. I went ahead and got Platinum on PC and PS4/5. Sekiro is easily my number one GOAT now, with Bloodborne right after it.

 

[Danjin44]

But the point is, you can. Attacks are actual physical attacks, not "trigger damage animation if you're within X radious of the enemy" bullshit. Its the same difference between hitscan shots and projectiles in a shooter.

Because AC6 you have full 3D maneuver and the game is all about out maneuvering your opponent.


Sekiro is all about sword to sword combat, is all about you responding correctly to your opponent's attacks like dual.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Sekiro is all about sword to sword combat, is all about you responding correctly to your opponent's attacks like dual.

And nothing worse in a game like this than being clearly outside the hitbox of a sword or spear or whatever, and still being hit by an attack that takes away half of your health dues to the game's bullshitery.

 

[Danjin44]

And nothing worse in a game like this than being clearly outside the hitbox of a sword or spear or whatever, and still being hit by an attack that takes away half of your health dues to the game's bullshitery.

The hit-boxes in Sekrio are fantastic!

 

[Guilty_AI]

The hit-boxes in Sekrio are fantastic!

yes...

AS LONG AS YOU DON'T PRESS THE WRONG BUTTON DURING A PERILOUS ATTACK


HOW DARE YOU TRY TO DODGE PLAYER! CAN'T YOU SEE HAVE TO PRESS THE JUMP BUTTON TO AVOID THIS SPECIFIC ATTACK!?

 

[BossLackey]

Then you are literally part of the problem and why this industry is going to shit. Because a dev makes a type of game and then we get inundated with endless clones and everyone claps.
Also, fuck off, you dont tell me where and what to write, it's a forum so I've given my opinion, regardless of how blunt it was.

Bro. Wtf are you on about. Endless clones?

There aren't even that many soulslikes haha! You act like it's completely taking over gaming lmao. Not to mention, every genre started with 1 game. You know how many FPS were "Doom Clones"? Metroidvania? Roguelike? Hell, RPGs are based off of ONE GAME. DnD.

I'm part of the problem for liking a particular genre? (one of many) What sense does that make?

Did Miyazaki rape and kill your family or something?

What's especially funny about this is that FromSoftware treats it's customers and fanbase very very well. No microtransaction. Full, complete games at launch. THE best DLC in industry (this legitimately isn't debatable). No nickel and diming whatsoever. And have been doing it for a very long time. How did that work out for Bioware and CDPR?

The Witcher and Mass Effect are great, but just because a game doesn't have a traditional narrative, it's bad?

These games don't have rich universes? Are you fucking high? There are MILLIONS of views on the lore of Dark Souls. VaatiVidya alone has 3 million subscribers and all he does is talk about the lore of these games.

You're talking out of your fucking ass and your ignorance is blinding.

 

[Danjin44]

yes...

AS LONG AS YOU DON'T PRESS THE WRONG BUTTON DURING A PERILOUS ATTACK


HOW DARE YOU TRY TO DODGE PLAYER! CAN'T YOU SEE HAVE TO PRESS THE JUMP BUTTON TO AVOID THIS SPECIFIC ATTACK!?

Thats you argument!? You easily avoid quickly running away, in that close range you definitely going get grabbed...heck you could even use the tree nearby using grappling hook to safety like in Guardian Ape gif I posted above.

 

[manfestival]

These Bloodborne fans sure are something else.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Thats you argument!?

YES IT IS. Imagine very clearly dodging an attack yet being hit anyway because you didn't avoid it THE CORRECT WAY the game wants you to. Thats pure bullshit.

 

[DavidGzz]

They are some of the best but for me build variety is huge so I put Dark, Demons, Elden, above them. I love them and really want a BB remaster ASAP though.

 

[Danjin44]

YES IT IS. Imagine very clearly dodging an attack yet being hit anyway because you didn't avoid it THE CORRECT WAY the game wants you to. Thats pure bullshit.

That guy in video was attacking him while he started his grabbing attack animation and in that close range you going to get fucking caught, its same in Bloodborne, when boss like Cleric beast starts grabbing animation while you still attacking then you going get caught....thats not really the game's fault.

One mistake people keep doing with Sekiro, is its dodge doesn't have iframe but you have high mobility and can even full speed run while still lock on.

 

[Lokaum D+]

Never finished those games.

Bloodborne launched in a decade that i only had PC and i just cant handle 30fps and the awful frame pacing nowadays.

Sekiro i just didnt like it, the lack of builds and weapons variety just made me lose interest in the game.

 

[Guilty_AI]

That guy in video was attacking him while he started his grabbing attack animation and in that close range you going to get fucking caught, its same in Bloodborne, when boss like Cleric beast starts grabbing animation while you still attacking then you going get caught....thats not really the game's fault.

One mistake people keep doing with Sekiro, is its dodge doesn't have iframe but you have high mobility and can even full speed run while still lock on.

Dude, the enemy clearly missed. It doesn't matter what the "correct timing" is when the visual feedback is not showing it.

Look at this bullshit:







"Hitbox porn" my ass. Only when the game feels like it.

 

[stn]

Love them all, but I prefer Nioh 1-2, Sekiro, and Elden Ring over Bloodborne. I just prefer the aesthetic more (Japanese, fantasy vs. Victorian gothic). BB is still amazing though.

 

[lughnasadh123]

Got the platinum for Bloodborne and highest it gets from me is a "good". None of the other FS games ever hooked me in a way to be greatest anything.

 

[DeaconOfTheDank]

I've been saying it for years and I'll say it again: Sekiro has the best sword combat of any game ever. It's definitely my favorite FromSoft game and one I've replayed the most by a large margin.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Sekiro has the best sword combat of any game ever.

nah

 

[FalsettoVibe]

Souls-like are nothing but trash with one thing going for them - challenge. I cant wait until this genre dies out. If someone says to me that their fav game is something like Sekiro, the first thing that comes to my mind is "jesus, this dude is boring", that or he played like 10 games.

But hey, challenge is literally the last thing that I can about in video games, where I care about escapism and exploring an interesting universe with a great story, not honing my parry reflex skills. Dont take it personally, but I'm not trolling, I really hate this genre of games.

In a world where games with rich universes like Mass Effect or The Witcher exist, to go ahead and just say Sekiro is your fav game, i just find it really weird, even if you care about challenge, really THE BEST game? nah man, something wrong happened.

Yes they do need to die, because it spawned an endless nr. of clones that are even worse...trash like Mortal Shell and many others. Like does somebody remembers that Steerising actually came out ? no because everyone jumped on the next one, Lies of P. Fuck this copy cat genre.

Then you are literally part of the problem and why this industry is going to shit. Because a dev makes a type of game and then we get inundated with endless clones and everyone claps.
Also, fuck off, you dont tell me where and what to write, it's a forum so I've given my opinion, regardless of how blunt it was.

Point to where _________ souls like touched you....

Seriously though, I wasn't going to respond, but these are quite literally the most ridiculous posts in this thread. All game genres have tons of clones. If you don't like soul likes, fine. But selfishly saying they need to die because of that is foolish and juvenile.

 

[iHaunter]

I disliked Sekiro so much I stopped at the 3rd Boss. It's the ONLY souls game I never finished.

 

[Larxia]

I really didn't like Sekiro as far as I'm concerned.

When I started the game, in my first hours, I was very confused because I was struggling to lower the health of ennemies. Then a friend told me that's not how you're supposed to play the game, you have to just parry and then do a finish when the bar is full. From this moment I knew I wouldn't like the combats at all.

Trying to do that did indeed make the combats easier, but... it didn't feel like I was "fighting", it felt more like waiting, playing through a scripted event / qte, instead of being able to actually fight, it's very weird and I'm just not a fan of this.

 

[Jibran#one]

I don't know about the best but sekiro is the only game I couldn't finish , finished all from games all the hardest games I ever played but the last boss of sekiro broke me , I think I tried to beat him for like 20 30 days straight maybe Im old now but I can't do it

 

[DeaconOfTheDank]

nah

Well played. You have good taste: MGR also has one of my favorite combat systems of all time, too. Sekiro still comes out on top for me tho - setting, art direction, the feel of swords clashing, and the enemies are just a lot more my style.

 

[Hero_Select]

They're not even the best Souls games let alone best games ever made

 

[Robb]

I don’t really like the genre, so obviously I’d disagree.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Sekiro ain’t at the top of the souls games.

Setting sucks. Gameplay is too one note. Elden Ring and Bloodborne are the clear winners

 

[March Climber]

Having different opinions on what constitutes a good game/the best games is one thing, but calling Sekiro a rhythm game as a way of downplaying the parry mechanic is crazy.

As someone who likes Sekiro(even with that game’s flaws), even I will point out that it is very close to a rhythm game in terms of what it’s accomplishing with action. Someone even made a visualization of the parry system to make this more clear.



In other games you can sort of panic button spam, panic parry, panic dodge/roll, or panic attack in moments where you lose pace. You are given more time to correct from making mistakes in other souls games as well. Once you reach a certain point in Sekiro, it will start to severely punish you for doing any of the above. You will die twice, and then reset all the way back to your last checkpoint.

You have to play by Sekiro’s rhythm. That is both it’s gift and it’s curse, depending on who plays it. That rigidness is why Bloodborne made my top 5 all time list and Sekiro did not.

 

[acidagfc]

Before Elden Ring came out I would have had no doubt. Bloodborn was the best game ever.
Now it's a draw honestly.
Bloodborn wins in an atmoshere and setting department. But ER is a better game in pretty much everything else. Variety is name of this game. So many ways to play, builds, crazy items, etc. Sure, later sections are a bit of a drag, but do you even remember fish people village in BB? Yes, fighting Kos was worth the effort of getting to him, but ooh boy, does it drag out. Variety of ER beats BB for me, even if just barely.

Sekiro though... For the life of me, I cannot get into it. I tried several times, it just never clicks. The combination of money loss at each death and the rot spreading just kills any motivation to retry. Maybe one day I will come back it to and something will fall into place and I will love it, but for now I just pretend that it's not me being bad, it's the game that is wrong.

So personally ER > BB > DS3 >>> everything else.

 

[NeroDaGod]

That Perilous Attack symbol works basically like a rhythm game tho. Its almost impossible get away from it with positioning often times meaning nothing, can only be avoided in a specific manner (aka pressing the specific correct button), with a really tiny window usually too.

I'd go as far as to say this mechanic is the only bottleneck in the entire game that makes people say its a super hard game. Without it the difficulty would be just that from another souls games, if not easier.

This gets a hard disagree from me. The purpose of the mikiri counter is to deal posture damage, the whole purpose of the game is to break the enemies’ posture. Yes the perilous attack symbol tells you there’s an incoming unblockable attack, but then how do you suggest the game tells you this otherwise?

Even so, if you can avoid the hit box you can dodge it in a variety of ways otherwise; Side/back stepping, jumping, grapple hook or literally running away you’re by no means forced to counter it - specially considering that you can’t counter some of them as they’re literally grab attacks…

Of course you have to time the block to get the parry effect for normal attacks… Spamming blocks isn’t going to work or you’d literally be cheesing the game. If you don’t want to time the blocks, you can just hold the block button which will block most attacks automatically with the caveat being that you suffer additional posture damage.

 

[tommib]

Bloodborne’s 27 fps pacing jank automatically disqualifies it.

rofif

 

[rofif]

rofif

Bloodborne runs at stable 30fps. It never drops on ps5 (and rarely did on ps4).
As for the framepacing? eh whatever. I always found this to be overblown. It stutters here and there a tiny bit but You forget about it after 5 minutes. It's not constant stutter like in ff XV 30fps mode.
And at least, it's the most responsive 30fps game probably ever.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Even so, if you can avoid the hit box you can dodge it in a variety of ways otherwise; Side/back stepping, jumping, grapple hook or literally running away you’re by no means forced to counter it - specially considering that you can’t counter some of them as they’re literally grab attacks…

No you cannot. Perilous attacks often have borked hitboxes and are designed as such that if you dont avoid them the correct way you get screwed even if you clearly didn't get hit. Grab attacks that you mentioned are a particularly bad case, where often times you or the enemy literally teletransport to the animation's position because you pressed dodge instead of jump or vice versa, even if you clearly avoided it.

I posted tons of videos in the thread previously demonstrating this bullshit.

Yes the perilous attack symbol tells you there’s an incoming unblockable attack, but then how do you suggest the game tells you this otherwise?

Fixing the above would be a great start

 

[Guilty_AI]

Well played. You have good taste: MGR also has one of my favorite combat systems of all time, too. Sekiro still comes out on top for me tho - setting, art direction, the feel of swords clashing, and the enemies are just a lot more my style

True. Probably when you take into account things like art direction, level design, enemy and boss variety, etc; Sekiro would come out on top. But i still think in terms of pure combat MG Rising comes out on top.

I felt Sekiro had some identity crisis when it came to the fighting mechanics, as if deep down it wanted to be timing/rythm-based like MG Rising and other similar action games, but also tried to be a position/hitbox based like other Souls games and also a stealth game. The end result was a rather inconsistent system with strange skill bottlenecks.

 

[Danjin44]

True. Probably when you take into account things like art direction, level design, enemy and boss variety, etc; Sekiro would come out on top. But i still thing in terms of pure combat MG Rising comes out on top.

I felt Sekiro had some identity crisis when it came to the fighting mechanics, as if deep down it wanted to be timing/rythm-based like MG Rising and other similar action games, but also tried to be a position/hitbox based like other Souls games and also a stealth game. The end result was a rather inconsistent system with strange skill bottlenecks.

I’m guessing you just didn’t jell well with Sekiro’s combat system. For me in terms of sword combat Sekiro is my all time favourite and helps it has great enemy designs and overall aesthetic soooo good.

I got so addicted to combat system that still play it time to even after platinum the game, especially it boss rush mode which bosses have new move sets.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I’m guessing you just didn’t jell well with Sekiro’s combat system. For me in terms of sword combat Sekiro is my all time favourite and helps it has great enemy designs and overall aesthetic soooo good.

I got so addicted to combat system that still play it time to even after platinum the game, especially it boss rush mode which bosses have new move sets.

When it comes to any skill based game, one extremely important thing is consistency. The truth is Sekiro isn't all that consistent in its systems.

The game for example implements stealth mechanics, and even lets you sneak up certain bosses... but then these bosses health bar miraculosly return if you hide from their sight again. I know they did this because they didn't want bosses to be too easy to cheese, but they should've thought of that when they implemented stealth instead of settling for half baked solutions.

The hitbox i ranted on earlier is another example. In one moment, it matters and you can treat attacks like actual attacks, but when the game feels like it it'll bork hitboxes in order to force you into countering attacks "the correct way".

It really sucks for a skill-based game to let you master certain skills, only to turn them meaningless at the drop of a hat for no apparent reason besides "the game wanted to". Despite beating Sekiro i could never feel that i mastered it, my only feeling after defeating Isshin was that of finally getting through the whims of a moody child.

Of course, i didn't hate the game (i beat it after all). However, "best in class"? "Best game ever"? "Best combat"? Never.

 

[NeroDaGod]

No you cannot. Perilous attacks often have borked hitboxes and are designed as such that if you dont avoid them the correct way you get screwed even if you clearly didn't get hit. Grab attacks that you mentioned are a particularly bad case, where often times you or the enemy literally teletransport to the animation's position because you pressed dodge instead of jump or vice versa, even if you clearly avoided it.

I posted tons of videos in the thread previously demonstrating this bullshit.

Fixing the above would be a great start

This is completely false.

Here’s Isshin, arguably the hardest boss in the game, being completed with dodge only:



Or even lower level then that, dodging sweep attacks:



Literally has nothing to do with rhythm.

 

[Danjin44]

The game for example implements stealth mechanics, and even lets you sneak up certain bosses... but then these bosses health bar miraculosly return if you hide from their sight again. I know they did this because they didn't want bosses to be too easy to cheese, but they should've thought of that when they implemented stealth instead of settling for half baked solutions.

I mean you use stealth to take out normal enemies buy you can’t take out bosses, but you can take out one of their health so you would give yourself the advantage. Were you expecting just instantly kill bosses with stealth?

for example: when you go back at beginning area when you first wake up, there is min boss there, you can give confront him normally or ambush him above to take out one of his health.…..I personally fucking love that.

I feel like this is mostly your issue.

 

[Guilty_AI]

This is completely false.

Here’s Isshin, arguably the hardest boss in the game, being completed with dodge only:



Or even lower level then that, dodging sweep attacks:



Literally has nothing to do with rhythm.

I literally posted 4 videos showing this does not work consistently. I wonder how many attempts and sweaty hours of understanding the game's weird timing/hitbox mechanics would be required to achieve those.

 

[Majormaxxx]

You mean Jedi Outcast and Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis

 

[Danjin44]

I literally posted 4 videos showing this does not work consistently. I wonder how many attempts and sweaty hours of understanding the game's weird timing/hitbox mechanics would be required to achieve those.

Just like any game that requires you dodge and parry, you need get timing right, how is that any different than Bloodborne you have time your dodge?

For example in Ludwig fight he does big jump attack and if you just mindless dodge there is good chance you gonna get hit so instead you have time your dodge when he does second scream when his about come down and that’s when you dodge.

Even with Darkbeast Paarl fight when he does big electric AOE attack you can time your dodge and avoid without trying run away and get caught anyway.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I mean you use stealth to take out normal enemies buy you can’t take out bosses, but you can take out one of their health so you would give yourself the advantage. Were you expecting just instantly kill bosses with stealth?

I was expecting a game that goes to great lenghts to implement stealth mechanics and even advertised it in one of its trailers, to implement said mechanics properly. MGS bosses don't have this issue for example, you can fight them normally or with the stealth/tactical-mentality the game spent its lenght taughting you.

Just like any game that requires you dodge and parry, you need get timing right, how is that any different than Bloodborne you have time your dodge?

Consistency is the difference. I haven't beaten bloodborne, but as i pointed out before in AC6 for example, every attack is hitbox based, there is no sudden magical grabbing that teletransports you into the hands of the enemy and insta-kills you, or special sword or missile that hits you even when you're clearly out of harms way.

Then a game like MG Rising consistently teaches you to play based on timing and rythm, it makes that style of gameplay interesting and fun, and doesn't insta-fail you just because you got out of beat just for a bit.

Sekiro wants to do both of those, and as a result they get on each other's way.

 

[Danjin44]

Consistency is the difference. I haven't beaten bloodborne, but as i pointed out before in AC6 for example, every attack is hitbox based, there is no sudden magical grabbing that teletransports you into the hands of the enemy and insta-kills you, or special sword or missile that hits you even when you're clearly out of harms way.

Just like every other game if you get the timing right you can consistently do it, I’m not “best player” out there but eventually learned and I was able to to pull it off 90% of the time.

Also again, AC6 is a Mecha game with full 3D maneuver and full ability to fly and dash on the air to avoid attacks and even then most of the time you can’t avoid all them and still take damage and I said this before AC games is much more about minimizing damage rather than completely avoid it.

was expecting a game that goes to great lenghts to implement stealth mechanics and even advertised it in one of its trailers, to implement said mechanics properly. MGS bosses don't have this issue for example, you can fight them normally or with the stealth/tactical-mentality the game spent its lenght taughting you.

So can you instantly stealth kill bosses in that game?

 

[Ansphn]

FROM is the best in the business

 

[Tomeru]

That's a very weird way to write Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun and Age of Empires II.

Peculiar way to write Red Alert 2

 

[digdug2]

You mean Jedi Outcast and Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis

I miss those old LucasFilm/Arts games. Hoping to hear some kind of update about the new Indiana Jones game soon.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Just like every other game if you get the timing right you can consistently do it, I’m not “best player” out there but eventually learned and I was able to to pull it off 90% of the time.

Yes, you can learn the game's bullshitery and how to deal with it. I did. Doesn't mean it isn't bullshit.

Also again, AC6 is a Mecha game with full 3D maneuver and full ability to fly and dash on the air to avoid attacks and even then most of the time you can’t avoid all them and still take damage and I said this before AC games is much more about minimizing damage rather than completely avoid it.

And again, the damage you take still comes from attacks WITH PROPER HITBOXES.
If you get hit, you knew where and why, maybe even made a conscious decision to get hit, BECAUSE THE GAME HAS PROPER HITBOXES.

So can you instantly stealth kill bosses in that game?

Sometimes, in others the boss comes with a proper implementation of stealth mechanics, allowing you to consistently use it to your advantage. Most importantly, it rewards you for learning the game's systems and makes these encounters interesting even if you try to use stealth.



Meanwhile, Sekiro punishes you for playing the game the way it taught you, because you're not playing it the right way at that specific moment. Its extremely frustrating.