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[Allandor]

Wut?

Rise of The Tomb Raider.

PS5: 107W
Xbox: 151W

Same game.
PS5 have way lower power consumption.

Doesn't the game render up to native 4k on xb1x and checkerboarded 4k on PS4 Pro?
This would explain the power draw. And after all, it is a BC game.

edit:
ah, there it is

The Xbox One X and PS4 Pro versions offer the choice between high frame-rate and high resolution modes. Resolution is fixed at 1080p on both consoles in the high frame-rate mode. In the high-resolution mode, the Pro uses checkerboard rendering to reach 1872p (3328 x 1872 or 75% of native 4K’s 3840 x 2160). The One X does better with a straight 2016p render (3584 x 2016, 87% of native 4K).

Comparing 'Shadow Of The Tomb Raider' On The Xbox One And PS4 Consoles

'Shadow of the Tomb Raider' looks great on all of the consoles but it looks the best on one of them.

www.forbes.com

 

[IntentionalPun]

Console Warz:

POWER CONSUMPTION EDITION

 

[Kerotan]

Higher clocks would give them a bigger box. So they chose astetics over performance.

 

[Memorabilia]

yer ps5 fans were gloating, About reaching Parity, come off it dude, you know that's just bull.

Have you ever heard the team with the lower number Gloat, you got to be joking.

And the difference is not minuscule its amazing that the ps5 has managed to get to parity while having that far of a disadvantage vs that much raw silicone power.

You guys tried to nail sony people to the cross, we came back at you, it is what it is, but saying otherwise is just not right.

Have i been a bad bad boy the last couple of weeks, i have, do i have some regrets in perhaps twisting the knife in a bit deep, to some people yes, but there are others that still have not learned their lesson, even yesterday there were people once again spreading fud. When does it end?

The thing is, when MS's development tools catch up this situation will reverse itself (EDIT: it's likely to happen even before then with game by game patches to correct performance issues). It's called math/physics and it's pretty much a forgone conclusion. Sony fanboys are overdoing it right now and are going to be eating crow in the not too distant future. This is why it's always best to make sure ones brain is in gear before engaging ones mouth. A modicum of impartiality, patience and humbleness is a good thing. But I realize that is a lot to expect of people who practically live for console warz.

 

[funking giblet]

No , there is a rumor that say freezing and data corruption problems on PS5 are caused
be very high clock speeds

Nonsense.

 

[Valued Gamer]

MS must of been worried about the thermals. There was no reason they could have uped the clocks to maybe 1900mhz, but there was obviously a reason they didn't.

 

[wachie]

The cooling/power .. everything is designed based on some design decisions. They simply cannot "unlock" the clocks and expect everything to be fine. Even though it may have headroom, Microsoft cannot predict how its going to fare in a variety of environments.

 

[John Wick]

And how did you come to that conclusion? Is it just what you think or is it actually true?

If the latter, provide actual sources instead of just “thinking” or calling people “ms fan girls” as some sort of defensive dig.

Maybe you have been hiding under a rock for the last 6 months or so? Ever since MS announced 12tf MS fangirls have been very vocal. Boasting about this and that. Native 4K @ 60fps. 120fps in some games etc. What made it even worse is clueless clowns like Panello and Tom "Cockwomble" Warren got into the act. The PS5 would be 40% weaker according to some of the armchair game devs that reside on this forum. Yeah truth hurts that's why your hurting now and trying to paint a very different picture.
I wouldn't even waste my time or even bother linking anything because it was so obvious. Just go back through some of the threads about the power of Series X.

 

[sircaw]

The thing is, when MS's development tools catch up this situation will reverse itself (EDIT: it's likely to happen even before then with game by game patches to correct performance issues). It's called math/physics and it's pretty much a forgone conclusion. Sony fanboys are overdoing it right now and are going to be eating crow in the not too distant future. This is why it's always best to make sure ones brain is in gear before engaging ones mouth. A modicum of impartiality, patience and humbleness is a good thing. But I realize that is a lot to expect of people who practically live for console warz.

i am not sure why sony people would end up be eating crow though, parity was our objective. If the xbox comes out being 5% 10% better that was always meant to be.. The only way sony people are going to eat crow is if we start hearing about those 30% high-performance numbers that were thrown about or those 51 fps more. that ain't happening. From what i can see sony people are happy with the performance they were told about or promised by cerny.

 

[rnlval]

That is not true... they are using enhanced 7nm from TSMC that has a good gain in power consumption.
It is not the same node used in Navi 10.

Not true,

AMD's 2020-2022 Client GPU Roadmap: RDNA 3 & Navi 3X On the Horizon With More Perf & Efficiency

www.anandtech.com

RDNA 2 has the same 7nm as RDNA. The perf/watt improvement is like 7970 GE to R9-290X at the same 28 nm node. Give AMD the credit for perf/watt improvements NOT TSMC.

 

[LeftThumbstick]

Maybe you have been hiding under a rock for the last 6 months or so? Ever since MS announced 12tf MS fangirls have been very vocal. Boasting about this and that. Native 4K @ 60fps. 120fps in some games etc. What made it even worse is clueless clowns like Panello and Tom "Cockwomble" Warren got into the act. The PS5 would be 40% weaker according to some of the armchair game devs that reside on this forum. Yeah truth hurts that's why your hurting now and trying to paint a very different picture.
I wouldn't even waste my time or even bother linking anything because it was so obvious. Just go back through some of the threads about the power of Series X.

Sounds like you're the one hurting my guy. I feel for you man.

 

[rnlval]

About the nVidia I don't know.
I agree with AMD I said it is more efficient than RDNA chips... it uses a enhanced process.

XSX
Front-End RDNA 1, Render-Back-Ends RDNA 2, Compute Units RDNA1, RT RDNA2
TSMC 7nm+ (enchanced)

That means better power comsumption.

1. Both XSX GPU's CU and BiG NAVI (NAVI 21)'s CU shares the same integrated tensor math support which doesn't exist for NAVI 10

2. AMD nuked "TSMC 7+" from the recent road maps.

 

[rnlval]

No it is not
Better effeciency than PS5 as well:
12 TF at 210 watt and 10.3 TF at 200watt
Maximum consumptions ever recorded until now.

XSX GPU has 12.147 TFLOPS
PS5 GPU has up to 10.275 TFLOPS

You rounded up for PS5 while you rounded down for XSX. LOL

 

[ethomaz]

Not true,

AMD's 2020-2022 Client GPU Roadmap: RDNA 3 & Navi 3X On the Horizon With More Perf & Efficiency

www.anandtech.com

RDNA 2 has the same 7nm as RDNA. The perf/watt improvement is like 7970 GE to R9-290X at the same 28 nm node. Give AMD the credit for perf/watt improvements NOT TSMC.

Nope.
7nm used in RX 5700 could not reach the power draw target MS needed.

09:37PM EDT - Q: TSMC 7nm enhanced, is it N7P, N7+, or something else? A: It's not base 7nm, it's progressed over time. Lots of work between AMD and TSMC to hit our targets and what we needed

Hot Chips 2020 Live Blog: Microsoft Xbox Series X System Architecture (6:00pm PT)

www.anandtech.com

RX 6800 uses 7nm enhanced too... AMD confirmed that base 7nm were used only in the first batch of products in 7nm last year.

 

[ethomaz]

1. Both XSX GPU's CU and BiG NAVI (NAVI 21)'s CU shares the same integrated tensor math support which doesn't exist for NAVI 10

2. AMD nuked "TSMC 7+" from the recent road maps.

Yeap that is why the module RT uses RDNA2 part.

RT RDNA2.

7nm+ name was nuked for a unique name 7nm but all there are enhancements (even the use of EUV) in the 7nm today and the one used a year ago.

It just that AMD now call all of them the same name.

“In order to avoid confusion, AMD is dropping the ‘+’ from its roadmaps. In speaking with AMD, the company confirmed that its next generations of 7nm products are likely to use process enhancements and the best high-performance libraries for the target market, however it is not explicity stating whether this would be N7P or N7+, just that it will be ‘better’ than the base N7 used in its first 7nm line.”

AMD Clarifies Comments on 7nm / 7nm+ for Future Products: EUV Not Specified

www.anandtech.com

 

[Yoboman]

Maybe this is the truth?

No, we will believe everything else posted by Kitty who has been a consistent AMD leaker

But that one is clearly fake news because I don't like it

 

[Yoboman]

No , there is a rumor that say freezing and data corruption problems on PS5 are caused
be very high clock speeds

LMAO

 

[Deleted member 471617]

And why is that? Just because Microsoft said so? Do you like to see your cpu idling at 3.8ghz while your gpu could use spare power em thermals?

I'm perfectly fine with the set clock speeds of Xbox Series X. I don't want them to overclock anything. Overclocking is only done to overcompensate what you originally fucked up.

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

I'm perfectly fine with the set clock speeds of Xbox Series X. I don't want them to overclock anything. Overclocking is only done to overcompensate what you originally fucked up. See PlayStation 5.

PS5 isn't overclocked, the RDNA2 is developed to achieve 2200mhz+, just look at the Radeon 6800. You only call it overclock because you see the XSX as the default.

PS5 is a mass product. Any cent Sony could save is important, so, to achieve a good balance between performance and price they took advantage of the new technologies from AMD, RDNA2, SMARTSHIFT, they customize everything for efficiency.

XSX has this clock because they went with a wider design, putting them in the same clock territory of PS5 would increase a lot the TDP and the XSX would need to be bigger with more cooling power. The console is already expensive as it is with the bigger SoC.

 

[mhirano]

No , there is a rumor that say freezing and data corruption problems on PS5 are caused
be very high clock speeds

This is just dumb and uninformed garbage.
All electronics are exaustively tested in their clockspeeds, there is no corruption/leakage on default clocks and voltage.
And, as PC users know very well, all components have a little headroom to overclock and/or overvolt...

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

It's funny that just 4 months ago, people were teasing Sony that they got caught off guard and really only had a 9 TF GPU. Now......people want MS to copy Sony lol.

Yeah. Honestly I think there might be some knee jerk overreaction across both sides. Let the consoles breathe a little bit

 

[ethomaz]

I'm perfectly fine with the set clock speeds of Xbox Series X. I don't want them to overclock anything. Overclocking is only done to overcompensate what you originally fucked up. See PlayStation 5.

PS5 is actually undercooked for a 36CU RDNA2 part.

 

[ToadMan]

Gears 5 reaches 210 watt and it is 2080 level of performance
Can you explain to me how series x manages 12 TF with RDNA1 DCU's and 210 watt TDP? Same TDP as PS5?

I don’t think you know what TDP means...

And that kind of makes your credibility like .... really low.

Just sayin’

EDIT:

Oh and you don’t know what the significance of a teraflop is ....

Yes it stresses the series x to the max, while using mesh shaders. SFS and velocity are not used though.

Let me explain: This means that 12.1 TF were delivered with a 210 watt power

 

[diffusionx]

No , there is a rumor that say freezing and data corruption problems on PS5 are caused
be very high clock speeds

LOL no. The second sentence is where this gets ridiculous. The PS5 is designed to run at the speeds it runs at. If it has visual artifacting, that is a manufacturing defect and the system needs to be replaced. End of story.

 

[rnlval]

Nope.
7nm used in RX 5700 could not reach the power draw target MS needed.

09:37PM EDT - Q: TSMC 7nm enhanced, is it N7P, N7+, or something else? A: It's not base 7nm, it's progressed over time. Lots of work between AMD and TSMC to hit our targets and what we needed

Hot Chips 2020 Live Blog: Microsoft Xbox Series X System Architecture (6:00pm PT)

www.anandtech.com

RX 6800 uses 7nm enhanced too... AMD confirmed that base 7nm were used only in the first batch of products in 7nm last year.

FYI https://www.anandtech.com/show/1558...7nm-7nm-for-future-products-euv-not-specified
AMD Clarifies Comments on 7nm / 7nm+ for Future Products

TSMC has three high-level versions of its 7nm process:

• N7, which is the basic initial version using ‘DUV’ only tools (so no EUV),
• N7P, which is the second generation version of N7 which is also only DUV
• N7+, which is an EUV version of N7 for a number of layers in the metal stack

This nomenclature has been finalized within the past year or so.
-----------

From https://www.techspot.com/news/80237-tsmc-7nm-production-improves-performance-10.html

TSMC's N7+ EUV has 10% perf/watt and 20% density improvements and N7P's improvement is less than N7+. LOL

We know AMD didn't use EUV based N7+ which leaves second-generation N7P .

In terms of the majority pref/watt improvements, AMD did NOT attribute RDNA 2's improvements to just N7P.

I'm overriding MS's PR claim with AMD's claim i.e. using the superior authority method.

 

[Riven326]

Was it even necessary to make such a small console though?

Yes. Have you seen the PS5?

 

[alabtrosMyster]

You are right on that. That's what matters.
My original replies here is about xsx having rdna1 cu's effecinency which is not the case due to the provided power consumption in relation with the ps5.
Performance is a different thing entirely, it depends on api's of how to utilize all these TF from either system

It's not just the APIs, it depends how a given piece of software uses the available resources, how the hardware around it keeps the CPU/GPU fed, if there is bespoke hardware to free the CPU/GPU from rendering graphics.

No , there is a rumor that say freezing and data corruption problems on PS5 are caused
be very high clock speeds

I assume this is a piece of humor, like when we were told that 12TF is 44% faster than 10 for RDNA2 reasons.

 

[DinoD]

No , there is a rumor that say freezing and data corruption problems on PS5 are caused
be very high clock speeds

Sorry. This calls for an early retirement!

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Yes. Have you seen the PS5?

It's the lighting and some sneaky camera angles that give you the impression it's so big, here is the TRUTH:

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Sounds like you're the one hurting my guy. I feel for you man.

 

[ethomaz]

FYI https://www.anandtech.com/show/1558...7nm-7nm-for-future-products-euv-not-specified
AMD Clarifies Comments on 7nm / 7nm+ for Future Products

TSMC has three high-level versions of its 7nm process:

• N7, which is the basic initial version using ‘DUV’ only tools (so no EUV),
• N7P, which is the second generation version of N7 which is also only DUV
• N7+, which is an EUV version of N7 for a number of layers in the metal stack

This nomenclature has been finalized within the past year or so.
-----------

From https://www.techspot.com/news/80237-tsmc-7nm-production-improves-performance-10.html

TSMC's N7+ EUV has 10% perf/watt and 20% density improvements and N7P's improvement is less than N7+. LOL

We know AMD didn't use EUV based N7+ which leaves second-generation N7P .

In terms of the majority pref/watt improvements, AMD did NOT attribute RDNA 2's improvements to just N7P.

I'm overriding MS's PR claim with AMD's claim i.e. using the superior authority method.

AMD and MS are using TSMC 7nm Enhanced... that does have better perf/watt than base 7nm.

Do you know where come most of 50% perf/watt increase in RDNA 2? 7nm enhanced.

 

[Memorabilia]

i am not sure why sony people would end up be eating crow though, parity was our objective. If the xbox comes out being 5% 10% better that was always meant to be.. The only way sony people are going to eat crow is if we start hearing about those 30% high-performance numbers that were thrown about or those 51 fps more. that ain't happening. From what i can see sony people are happy with the performance they were told about or promised by cerny.

Again, math tells us what we need to know. Best case scenario the XSX has an 18% GPU advantage. Case by case, some or all of that advantage will be leveraged and some or all of it will be ameliorated by the PS5s faster SSD depending on level design/game type.

No one with any common sense let alone a basic grasp of the different architectures has been beating their chest about a supposed "30% advantage".

This is a clear case of a minority of Sony fanboys attacking a minority of Xbox fanboys. So, yes, those people will indeed be eating crow insofar as the rest of the reasonable population is concerned.

API inefficiencies are allowing Sony guys to beclown themselves long term for some short term giggles. Hey, have at it I guess. Most reasonable people are gonna enjoy both consoles for what they bring to the table.

 

[sircaw]

Again, math tells us what we need to know. Best case scenario the XSX has an 18% GPU advantage. Case by case, some or all of that advantage will be leveraged and some or all of it will be ameliorated by the PS5s faster SSD depending on level design/game type.

No one with any common sense let alone a basic grasp of the different architectures has been beating their chest about a supposed "30% advantage".

This is a clear case of a minority of Sony fanboys attacking a minority of Xbox fanboys. So, yes, those people will indeed be eating crow insofar as the rest of the reasonable population is concerned.

API inefficiencies are allowing Sony guys to beclown themselves long term for some short term giggles. Hey, have at it I guess. Most reasonable people are gonna enjoy both consoles for what they bring to the table.

i am not sure why you label stuff as simple math, there is so much customization in these machines it's not a simple apples to apples comparison here.

You do know that sony has a lot of custom silicon built into their system, all these cache scrubbers, coherency cores, unified cache bla bla whatever the hell it is has to count for something.

I am just listening to what game designers said over the last few months, we have all seen the tweets, and i think the proof is in the pudding atm as far as early results are going.

will xbox improve, it will, of course, it will but so will Sonys.

 

[Memorabilia]

i am not sure why you label stuff as simple math, there is so much customization in these machines it's not a simple apples to apples comparison here.

You do know that sony has a lot of custom silicon built into their system, all these cache scrubbers, coherency cores, unified cache bla bla whatever the hell it is has to count for something.

I am just listening to what game designers said over the last few months, we have all seen the tweets, and i think the proof is in the pudding atm as far as early results are going.

will xbox improve, it will, of course, it will but so will Sonys.

The 18% difference is fact and, yes, simple math. The reason I keep saying "math" is because it's true. But, as I also wrote, APIs and architectural differences will come into play on a case by case basis as well, which I felt I was very clear about. These differences may end up meaning many games are essentially "parity status" after all is said and done.

If you want to deny there is an actual 18% difference between the GPUs because of "Sony Secret Sauce" you're delving into Sony warrior territory and I'm not going to waste my time with that anymore than the people you claim were trying to say Xbox would have a 30% advantage, or Xbox fans who likewise deny the PS5 has a SSD speed advantage.

 

[Godfavor]

I don’t think you know what TDP means...

And that kind of makes your credibility like .... really low.

Just sayin’

EDIT:

Oh and you don’t know what the significance of a teraflop is ....

Nice argument, plz explain then

 

[SegaSnatcher]

I like how it went from “Xbox is gonna tear PS5 a new a-hole” to “There isn’t even a big difference, who cares”.

 

[Godfavor]

It's not just the APIs, it depends how a given piece of software uses the available resources, how the hardware around it keeps the CPU/GPU fed, if there is bespoke hardware to free the CPU/GPU from rendering graphics.

True, these are the architecture changes that contribute to performance and power requirements. I was talking about power requirements of the gpu aka rdna1 vs 2

 

[Md Ray]

No , there is a rumor that say freezing and data corruption problems on PS5 are caused
be very high clock speeds

This is literally from misterxmedia who claimed there was a hidden 2nd GPU inside XB1's power brick. Stop this BS, we don't want you to get banned.

 

[sircaw]

The 18% difference is fact and, yes, simple math. The reason I keep saying "math" is because it's true. But, as I also wrote, APIs and architectural differences will come into play on a case by case basis as well, which I felt I was very clear about. These differences may end up meaning many games are essentially "parity status" after all is said and done.

and this is what the vast majority of sony fans have been talking about, Parity. good we are at least on the same page then.

 

[Valued Gamer]

Sony does some things very well, and one of those is their development tools.
The PS3 was a disaster of a console with regards to the Cell. The Cell wasn't really suited to a games console, and required twice the amount of work to get a result.
This was where the Sony Ice Ninjas came around and worked their arses off to help devs get to grips with Cell programming.
Ever since the PS3 one of the biggest areas Cerny and Sony worked on was "Time to triangle".
The PS3 time to triangle was up to 12 months. With the PS4 going to x86 and off the shelf GPU, the time to triangle dropped well down to 1-2 months, while the PS5 improved on that even more with less than 4 weeks with time to triangle.
The decision to go with a 36 CU GPU might have also due to keeping the development environment as close to PS 4 as possible.
I think we are seeing the fruits of this in how the PS5 has come out of the gate so well.
On the other hand we have MS Wil all new tools and APIs, which by all accounts MS has been behind Sony in getting these into the hands of the devs, and I think we have also seen the fruits of this as well.

It has nothing to do with upping the XSX clock speeds, and everything to do with improving the development environment for devs to work in.
This Wil happen, and it's going to be interesting to see if how the multiplats compare as time goes on.
Remember, MS has really driven their relationships with Nvidia and AMD where direct x and all MSs new extensions are going to be used on PC games from now on.

 

[Cato]

I think SX designs has more to offer. But by locking at only 1.8ghz, seems like MS is selling it too short
Look at RX6800, the closest to SX.

RX6800 runs metro 1440p ultra at around 2.25ghz, takes only 230W. It generates 85fps, beats 2080Ti Fe.
From reviews, a 7% overclock 6800, gives about 3% fps improvements
Working backwards, 1.8ghz to 2.25ghz is a 25% increase. So if we capped RX6800 to 1.8ghz, it will lose 10~12% in perf, so Metro 1440p may lose 10fps in doing so.

Let see if any reviewers review capped 6800/6800XT clocks. Please share if you come across them.

And just a day ago or two,
you and others ended a 6 month campaign about why unlocked clocks where the sign of the devil, the inferior devil.

 

[Md Ray]

The 18% difference is fact and, yes, simple math. The reason I keep saying "math" is because it's true. But, as I also wrote, APIs and architectural differences will come into play on a case by case basis as well, which I felt I was very clear about. These differences may end up meaning many games are essentially "parity status" after all is said and done.

If you want to deny there is an actual 18% difference between the GPUs because of "Sony Secret Sauce" you're delving into Sony warrior territory and I'm not going to waste my time with that anymore than the people you claim were trying to say Xbox would have a 30% advantage, or Xbox fans who likewise deny the PS5 has a SSD speed advantage.

There are other units inside PS5's GPU that are 22% faster than XSX. So it's not a clear cut advantage for XSX only. Even after Xbox's SDK matures, those PS5's advantages will still be there and will show up in games.

 

[Kagey K]

Op is wrong, and time will tell.

There are way too many premature threads being made right now.

The lack of maturity is what makes this place great.

 

[longdi]

Look guys, my topic is not a knee jerk to early multiplatform results, those are a 100m start in a 42km marathon.
I have faith SX will overpower PS5 hardware in due time, another year or shorter.
Its just an imo, MS is leaving 10-15% on the table.
But i guess if you are winning in specs already, having a more compact design is choosen. Nothing wrong, just bringing up the opinions and perhaps Phil sees this and go back to his engineers.

 

[sircaw]

Look guys, my topic is not a knee jerk to early multiplatform results, those are a 100m start in a 42km marathon.
I have faith SX will overpower PS5 hardware in due time, another year or shorter.
Its just an imo, MS is leaving 10-15% on the table.
But i guess if you are winning in specs already, having a more compact design is choosen. Nothing wrong, just bringing up the opinions and perhaps Phil sees this and go back to his engineers.

Just play your console and stop worrying about being ahead in a few tests for the love of god.

A couple of patches down the line and you will be at 60 fps, give it up dude.

you were wrong, just deal with it and move on.

 

[ToadMan]

Nice argument, plz explain then

 

[Dogman]

Look guys, my topic is not a knee jerk to early multiplatform results, those are a 100m start in a 42km marathon.
I have faith SX will overpower PS5 hardware in due time, another year or shorter.
Its just an imo, MS is leaving 10-15% on the table.
But i guess if you are winning in specs already, having a more compact design is choosen. Nothing wrong, just bringing up the opinions and perhaps Phil sees this and go back to his engineers.

Lol you not even gonna respond to the bomb GHG dropped on your head huh? Stop talking so much BS and it won't happen again.

 

[Godfavor]

So consoles have a tdp right? Why is that? Maybe because the thermal solution can dissipate heat of about 200-230 watt of each console?

 

[Memorabilia]

There are other units inside PS5's GPU that are 22% faster than XSX. So it's not a clear cut advantage for XSX only. Even after Xbox's SDK matures, those PS5's advantages will still be there and will show up in games.

Source? This sounds like "secret sauce" talk.

 

[rnlval]

AMD and MS are using TSMC 7nm Enhanced... that does have better perf/watt than base 7nm.

Do you know where come most of 50% perf/watt increase in RDNA 2? 7nm enhanced.

Again, https://www.anandtech.com/show/1558...7nm-7nm-for-future-products-euv-not-specified
AMD Clarifies Comments on 7nm / 7nm+ for Future Products

TSMC has three high-level versions of its 7nm process:

• N7, which is the basic initial version using ‘DUV’ only tools (so no EUV),
• N7P, which is the second generation version of N7 which is also only DUV
• N7+, which is an EUV version of N7 for a number of layers in the metal stack

This nomenclature has been finalized within the past year or so.

N7+ EUV is the superior process node when compared to N7P DUV. Smaller process nodes are based on EUV e.g.

EUV = Extreme ultraviolet lithography

DUV =Deep ultraviolet lithography
---------

From https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/3398/tsmc-details-5-nm/

TSMC emphasized the extensive use of EUV with this process. It’s worth pointing out that this is really TSMC’s first ‘main’ EUV-based process. TSMC N7 and N7P nodes are DUV-based. TSMC first production EUV process is the N7+ but that node is really an orphan – not compatible with the prior nodes and no clear migration path forward other than going back to this node.

On the other hand, N5 is designed as the main migration path from N7 for most customers. TSMC says that more than 10 EUV layers are used to replace at least 4 times more immersion layers at cut, contact, via and metal line steps. This is comparing their EUV-based N5 node to a hypothetical N5 node that utilizes multi-patterning.

N7P yields 7% performance increase or 10% reduced power consumption when compared to N7


---------

From https://www.techspot.com/news/80237-tsmc-7nm-production-improves-performance-10.html

TSMC's N7+ EUV has 10% perf/watt and 20% density improvements and N7P's improvement is less than N7+. LOL

We know AMD didn't use EUV N7+ which leaves the second-generation N7P.

Compare the following AMD PR slides:


Note AMD credited 7nm process gains for RDNA 1

VS

Note AMD did NOT 7nm process gains for RDNA 2

In terms of the majority pref/watt improvements, AMD did NOT attribute RDNA 2's improvements to just N7P.

Note that Zen engineers are working with RTG engineers to improve RDNA's clock speed scaling.