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[The Smoking Bun]

I really don't like the quashing of free speech without a good cause. Leslee Udwin has given her response to the ban:

Well obviously. Curbing free speech is never a good thing.
However "bans" here don't really work and people will watch this if truly interested
They now also have more ammo against the government

 

[nOoblet16]

Categorising a country like India under one label in any discussion (positive or negative) is bullshit. Bullshit in the sense that this is a country of 1.4 billion people spread over a large geographical area with diversity that is unseen anywhere else in the world. It is nuts to classify them in any sense by the west. It's nuts to classify them under one ethnicity, it's nuts to classify them under one culture, it's nuts to get any "general" opinion of India. The west is simply incapable of understanding India because it's just too different from the western idea of a society, culture and ethnicity. Once you understand that, we can move to a different discussion.

Now it is true that India has a largely patriarchal society but stuff like that bit where the people make sociopathic comment about killing his daughter is just honestly not common. Why do I know this? I am an Indian from India, who now lives in west and who grew up under different kind of social conditions. I can tell you for a fact that no one in my family would think that way and I can also tell you for a fact that no one here (in the west) is really equipped to understand India except the few who actually have been to India. I also agree with the post in last page that quoted an article that claimed this to be a "white saviour" situation. Major changes were made to the law after the 2012 gang rape in New Delhi and these changes didn't happen because of the west or the western media, they are completely ineffective in India, the changes happened because of the people within the country itself.

 

[FootballFan]

Thank you for this thread FortuneFaded. Sad read but yeah, humans like this exist unfortunately.

Some disgusting quotes in there.

 

[striferser]

Horrible.
That victim blaming is insane. The rapist view is beyond fucked up.

 

[FortuneFaded]

Leslee Udwin talking about the ban: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8ZxpLH294U

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Horrible.
That victim blaming is insane. The rapist view is beyond fucked up.

Caste system mixed with a strong belief that women are inherently worth less in that society.

It's not something education alone will fix, there needs a strong societal move towards accepting womens worth in Indian society and families. They can't be seen as a burden that won't be there to support their parents when they get older.

Don't forget that India has a huge problem with female infanticide.

 

[EvilKatarn]

Wow some rapists are actually incarcerated in India? Felt like they just maybe get a "naughty naughty boy" scolding from the local police.

 

[BeforeU]

His statement is horrifying and his thinking disgusts me. I couldn't even finish reading everything he said. But one thing is for sure, if I was the interviewer, I would have took his tongue out. I dont want to kill him, would rather see him suffer.

 

[War Peaceman]

Disgusting stuff.

India has a huge women problem that permeates through its society (which isn't to suggest all men are terrible). The way women are whistled at, harassed and objectified whilst engaging in every day activities is shocking. I've spoken with many Indian-born women who spoke of their shock at how restrained the UK is by comparison. These guys are almost certainly not rapists but it is normal behaviour to do this, making normal activities hostile for women. There are deep problems and they need to take serious action to show this is not ok.


Bangladesh has a far more mature - though far from perfect - attitude towards women.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Categorising a country like India under one label in any discussion (positive or negative) is bullshit. Bullshit in the sense that this is a country of 1.4 billion people spread over a large geographical area with diversity that is unseen anywhere else in the world. It is nuts to classify them in any sense by the west. It's nuts to classify them under one ethnicity, it's nuts to classify them under one culture, it's nuts to get any "general" opinion of India. The west is simply incapable of understanding India because it's just too different from the western idea of a society, culture and ethnicity. Once you understand that, we can move to a different discussion.

Now it is true that India has a largely patriarchal society but stuff like that bit where the people make sociopathic comment about killing his daughter is just honestly not common. Why do I know this? I am an Indian from India, who now lives in west and who grew up under different kind of social conditions. I can tell you for a fact that no one in my family would think that way and I can also tell you for a fact that no one here (in the west) is really equipped to understand India except the few who actually have been to India. I also agree with the post in last page that quoted an article that claimed this to be a "white saviour" situation. Major changes were made to the law after the 2012 gang rape in New Delhi and these changes didn't happen because of the west or the western media, they are completely ineffective in India, the changes happened because of the people within the country itself.

Not that I don't agree with you that with situations like these entire peoples get lumped together unhelpfully, but what's your source for the bolded? The rest of your argument is just anecdotal, and I'm afraid doesn't contribute much.

I wish the author of the OP story hadn't sensationalized things with their own views ("indelible stains!") because the subject is gripping and serious enough without it.

The point about crimes, though, I think was interesting because it could be an unintended consequence of the death penalty for rape:

Chillingly, he went on: "The death penalty will make things even more dangerous for girls. Now when they rape, they won't leave the girl like we did. They will kill her. Before, they would rape and say, 'Leave her, she won't tell anyone.' Now when they rape, especially the criminal types, they will just kill the girl. Death."

 

[Ravensmash]

Those statements.

What the fucking fuck? That's one hell of a warped mind.

 

[Kenshin001]

Wait, what? Where did you get that from?

That's just not true.

Probably because there are horrific gang rapes on a near constant basis in India. This month a woman was gang raped by 5 men, including a cop's son. Last month a mentally ill Nepalese woman was gang raped by 9 men and killed and a 6 month pregnant woman was gang raped by cops. The month before a Japanese tourist was gang raped etc, etc.

Those are just some of the cases that make the local news.

There was a story recently of an Indian man masturbating on a woman's back at a music festival. I think the culture has serious ingrained problems.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

This is fucking disgusting.

 

[RustyNails]

"A decent girl won't roam around at nine o'clock at night. A girl is far more responsible for rape than a boy," he said.

"Housework and housekeeping is for girls, not roaming in discos and bars at night doing wrong things, wearing wrong clothes. About 20% of girls are good."

People "had a right to teach them a lesson" he suggested - and he said the woman should have put up with it.

"When being raped, she shouldn't fight back. She should just be silent and allow the rape. Then they'd have dropped her off after 'doing her', and only hit the boy," he said.

Chillingly, he went on: "The death penalty will make things even more dangerous for girls. Now when they rape, they won't leave the girl like we did. They will kill her. Before, they would rape and say, 'Leave her, she won't tell anyone.' Now when they rape, especially the criminal types, they will just kill the girl. Death."

Mind of a monster.

 

[Tom Nook]

The most disgusting thing I've ever read. Fuck these people.

 

[Stinkles]

Categorising a country like India under one label in any discussion (positive or negative) is bullshit. Bullshit in the sense that this is a country of 1.4 billion people spread over a large geographical area with diversity that is unseen anywhere else in the world. It is nuts to classify them in any sense by the west. It's nuts to classify them under one ethnicity, it's nuts to classify them under one culture, it's nuts to get any "general" opinion of India. The west is simply incapable of understanding India because it's just too different from the western idea of a society, culture and ethnicity. Once you understand that, we can move to a different discussion.

Now it is true that India has a largely patriarchal society but stuff like that bit where the people make sociopathic comment about killing his daughter is just honestly not common. Why do I know this? I am an Indian from India, who now lives in west and who grew up under different kind of social conditions. I can tell you for a fact that no one in my family would think that way and I can also tell you for a fact that no one here (in the west) is really equipped to understand India except the few who actually have been to India. I also agree with the post in last page that quoted an article that claimed this to be a "white saviour" situation. Major changes were made to the law after the 2012 gang rape in New Delhi and these changes didn't happen because of the west or the western media, they are completely ineffective in India, the changes happened because of the people within the country itself.

I could almost exactly the same things about the US and guns, but that doesn't mean the US has no problem with guns.

 

[FalsettoVibe]

Wow....his comments are crazy.

 

[Suikoguy]

Was listening to NPR on the way home and apparently the majority is behind the ban on the film since it makes India look bad. India has some serious problems to work out yet.

Also apparently some type of "action" will be taken against the BBC.

 

[Aurongel]

Some people victim blame discretely.

Others write it into law.

 

[The Smoking Bun]

Was listening to NPR on the way home and apparently the majority [/B ]is behind the ban on the film since it makes India look bad. India has some serious problems to work out yet.

Also apparently some type of "action" will be taken against the BBC.

What do you mean by majority? Public or politicians? I doubt the public supports the ban

 

[FortuneFaded]

Was listening to NPR on the way home and apparently the majority is behind the ban on the film since it makes India look bad. India has some serious problems to work out yet.

Also apparently some type of "action" will be taken against the BBC.

The Ministry of Home Affairs gave her express permission to speak to the prisoners on the condition that the prisoner consents which he did. They really have no legal basis of which to object.

 

[Suikoguy]

What do you mean by majority? Public or politicians? I doubt the public supports the ban

I'm just repeating what I heard on NPR. They said the majority of the public was for the ban, reason stated is it put India in a negative light.
It was said during the news hour, which I believe comes from the BBC. Edit: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...india-bans-film-about-infamous-2012-gang-rape
Still looking for more info.

The Ministry of Home Affairs gave her express permission to speak to the prisoners on the condition that the prisoner consents which he did. They really have no legal basis of which to object.

They are certainly trying. I honestly did not expect this kind of reaction from India, especially those in government.

 

[The Smoking Bun]

I'm just repeating what I heard on NPR. They said the majority of the public was for the ban, reason stated is it put India in a negative light.

I hope they are mistaken then. Of course there is a difference in the public that comes from the big cities and the actually majority of the country that lives in small towns and villages throughout the country. I hope they are mistaken because the last thing we should do is try to bury this news, everyday we ought to be reminded that such horrible things happen in our country and all that candlelight vigil stuff was just a lot of pomp and noise.

You know what, I'm leaving this place, I honestly want to...

 

[Suikoguy]

I hope they are mistaken then. Of course there is a difference in the public that comes from the big cities and the actually majority of the country that lives in small towns and villages throughout the country. I hope they are mistaken because the last thing we should do is try to bury this news, everyday we ought to be reminded that such horrible things happen in our country and all that candlelight vigil stuff was just a lot of pomp and noise.

You know what, I'm leaving this place, I honestly want to...

I don't think they had sufficient time to properly poll. He seemed to be referring to his general perception of what the news stations, news papers, and social media were saying.

Sorry, I can't seem to find any web links to go along with this, so please don't take what I said as gospel. It's certainly possible I misheard it or something. I certainly hope I did

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Im glad my region's caste system didnt become as fucked up as India's and we were able to kind of get over it once the 20th century came around , that kind of Institutionalized discrimination gives birth to shit like this.

 

[Window]

This is absolutely sickening. How does one combat such a lack of empathy? How does one even end up like this?

 

[FortuneFaded]

I didn't actually know this but the documentary was brought forward and was on BB4 last night. Here is a youtube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W6WrShqKGE

 

[FortuneFaded]

Just finished watching. I don't think it was that well made. I can understand what the director was thinking of in terms of playing contrasting statements back-to-back but it was very busy and moments weren't left to breathe. This was the international version which is 57 minutes and I'm curious what the 41 minute Indian version which she had edited would look like.

Sticking to the content, she spent 16 hours with one of the rapists but there was not much of that time used in the film. The most interesting part was when he said 'the incident - the accident', correcting himself to somehow portray as though it wasn't an intentional act. They also theorized that the initial confrontation between her friend and the rapist had got out of hand, and so they raped her to keep her quiet, thinking that the shame of being raped would mean she would stay silent.

I thought the coverage of the protest was interesting. I though the music and rhythm of the protests was fascinating and the passion of the female protesters was clear to see.

The main draw of the film however, is the interview with the mother (unfortunately, this was spliced sporadically throughout the film rather than a dedicated segment). It was heartbreaking watching her talk about the aftermath.

 

[Dennis]

I didn't actually know this but the documentary was brought forward and was on BB4 last night. Here is a youtube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W6WrShqKGE

Thanks for posting the link.

 

[y2dvd]

Tough watch. I can't believe some justify the ban by saying it glorifies the rapists. I have no clue you they've reached that conclusion.

 

[Bluekaveli]

Is this worst than the Hyena tattoo?

 

[wedward]

This fucking lawyer is disgusting.

Talking about diamonds and dogs and flowers and thorns.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

The fact that the Indian Government banned this documentary is the perfect representation of the fucking problem that exists in the first place.

 

[theepan]

The depressing thing about this is that cutting foreign aid and sanctions will accomplish next to nothing. India severely lacks education. That needs to be fixed in order to combat such heinous crimes and rape culture.

as someone who just lived in india for 6 years and was born there . i can assure you its not education . his thinking is purely cultural . a lot of my peers , in my college would share this view .

 

[theepan]

Categorising a country like India under one label in any discussion (positive or negative) is bullshit. Bullshit in the sense that this is a country of 1.4 billion people spread over a large geographical area with diversity that is unseen anywhere else in the world. It is nuts to classify them in any sense by the west. It's nuts to classify them under one ethnicity, it's nuts to classify them under one culture, it's nuts to get any "general" opinion of India. The west is simply incapable of understanding India because it's just too different from the western idea of a society, culture and ethnicity. Once you understand that, we can move to a different discussion.

Now it is true that India has a largely patriarchal society but stuff like that bit where the people make sociopathic comment about killing his daughter is just honestly not common. Why do I know this? I am an Indian from India, who now lives in west and who grew up under different kind of social conditions. I can tell you for a fact that no one in my family would think that way and I can also tell you for a fact that no one here (in the west) is really equipped to understand India except the few who actually have been to India. I also agree with the post in last page that quoted an article that claimed this to be a "white saviour" situation. Major changes were made to the law after the 2012 gang rape in New Delhi and these changes didn't happen because of the west or the western media, they are completely ineffective in India, the changes happened because of the people within the country itself.

its people like you who can't see the dangers of cultural impact of their own place who are responsible for allowing scum like him to exist. when i lived in india there was countless instances of foreigners getting raped in goa. girls who haven't even attained menarche being raped by goondas. how can you ignore the rape implications of indian culture . i feel like you can't take the fact that your culture is responsible for this puts you on the defensive . you are so biased by your personal experiences with your family . that you are not able to see the big picture. hell there's even instances where families hide the fact that they have been "deflowered" to not damage marriage prospects. what about the acid attacks on girls faces who refuse advances by college guys. oh no to judge indian culture on this sort of thing would be too broad a strong and hurt my own psyche . after all without my culture what am i ? can i really be a part of one of the worst cultures to treat women ? get over yourself


signed
from an indian who was born in there and just recently studied there for 6 years

 

[Chairman Yang]

Bangladesh has a far more mature - though far from perfect - attitude towards women.

Bangladesh has 4-5 times more rapes than India, and there's no evidence that India underreports rape more than Bangladesh. Basically, I find what you're saying extremely hard to believe.

 

[War Peaceman]

Bangladesh has 4-5 times more rapes than India, and there's no evidence that India underreports rape more than Bangladesh. Basically, I find what you're saying extremely hard to believe.

I wasn't specifically talking about rape, although understandable given the topic. Also, to be clear, it still has deep cultural problems on the matter.

 

[SniperHunter]

Categorising a country like India under one label in any discussion (positive or negative) is bullshit. Bullshit in the sense that this is a country of 1.4 billion people spread over a large geographical area with diversity that is unseen anywhere else in the world. It is nuts to classify them in any sense by the west. It's nuts to classify them under one ethnicity, it's nuts to classify them under one culture, it's nuts to get any "general" opinion of India. The west is simply incapable of understanding India because it's just too different from the western idea of a society, culture and ethnicity. Once you understand that, we can move to a different discussion.

Now it is true that India has a largely patriarchal society but stuff like that bit where the people make sociopathic comment about killing his daughter is just honestly not common. Why do I know this? I am an Indian from India, who now lives in west and who grew up under different kind of social conditions. I can tell you for a fact that no one in my family would think that way and I can also tell you for a fact that no one here (in the west) is really equipped to understand India except the few who actually have been to India. I also agree with the post in last page that quoted an article that claimed this to be a "white saviour" situation. Major changes were made to the law after the 2012 gang rape in New Delhi and these changes didn't happen because of the west or the western media, they are completely ineffective in India, the changes happened because of the people within the country itself.

great post this.

 

[Peru]

great post this.

The idea of cultural relativism being used in a case like this is not a sign of good argumentation.

 

[Maninthemirror]

So apparently Indian government has ordered Youtube to take the documentary down. Why did Youtube comply?

 

[infi]

So apparently Indian government has ordered Youtube to take the documentary down. Why did Youtube comply?

The BBC asked them to remove it

 

[FortuneFaded]

New link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUvlwmIfyx0

 

[Miles Quaritch]

The BBC is being completely spineless here.

There's absolutely no reason they should be pulling down links, especially with the documentary banned in India.

 

[Game4life]

The problem that's being highlighted here isn't necessarily that these people would be considered ordinary if they weren't rapists. It's that rape is so ingrained into this culture that it has become a social norm, just like going to work and hanging out with friends.

Come on now. Lets not exaggerate. It is a problem but you make it sound like the majority of men in India think this way. It is incorrect. It would not be appropriate if I lable racism is a social norm in the US given the crimes against minorities I hear about every alternate day there. People are making it sound as if it is a rogue state and any woman who steps out gets raped. India has issues that it needs to sort out ASAP but lets not tarnish every person staying there. Your analogy is an unwanted exaggeration.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

So apparently Indian government has ordered Youtube to take the documentary down. Why did Youtube comply?

The Indian Government can't tell youtube to do anything. The reason why youtube took it down is because the creator of the documentary, the BBC, asked them to take it down. In which case youtube admits for grounds of removal.

 

[shira]

I tried watching this for 15 minutes out of 60.

Had to turn it off. That is so messed up. The driver, the defence lawyers. It's like stone age philosophy.