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Larian Director of Publishing on Starfield criticism when compared to Baldur's Gate 3 : "It's a leadership problem.... "

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CliffyB's Cock Holster
I'd say the issue isn't so much prioritizing the bottom line, but rather when leadership is completely out-of-touch with reality and especially from their own products, team and field.

My comeback to that is if they are out of touch with "reality", what are they in touch with, or striving towards?

I'm not keen on filing people in positions of power away under simple designations like "stupid" or "greedy", when I think its way more plausible that they are simply reacting to what they perceive as different imperatives. Even if the end result looks/is the same.

Not saying this to defend their mistakes or spare their feelings, just that if there's an underlying cause its going to manifest somehow regardless of who's in the decision-making chair. So ignoring that I don't think is particularly helpful.

The recent case with Unity is a clear example, sure they need to increase their revenue somehow but the way they choose to do so was ridiculously bad and showcased a complete disconnect with the current market and the medium.

Their messaging has been utterly catastrophic for sure, but to be fair I'm not sure there's a way that they could adapt to the shifting economics without stirring up a lot of discontent. Again, not defending the decision, I spent way too long yesterday trying to figure out quite what their opaquely worded announcements and explanations actually meant - and I really do not have a dog in the fight so for me it was just an interesting thing to look at, and not something potentially ruinous to my livelihood... Meaning that I do understand why a lot of devs have reacted like they have.

Again, I'm just trying to be even-handed and look at the situation from a neutral position.
 

Tsaki

Member
Agree; Im just pointing out the stupidity in the Larian Director's.reply to the tweet. Essentially, he is also making a gross oversimplification by saying that low level team members pour their heart. The original tweet is talking about a general lack of passion in AAA studios (management + devs) which does appear to be the case. This just appears to be a case of a kind of virtue signalling on part of the Larian Director.
Yeah "virtue signalling" is definitely apt. This line of thinking the past few years is starting to get annoying. "The lower level guys, the ones that make up the majority of the development pool, are soulful and bursting with creativity, only being shackled by the money-hungry, walk-on-corpses, capitalist management pigs". It's an easy way to shit talk and tell how you really feel without enraging the masses of devs, since "You are not the problem, it's the top 1%" and that nebulous 1% is too small for anyone to care, really. "They are rich already, who gives a fuck". Notice he doesn't name specific names at Bethesda management, he leaves it vague to not cut industry ties and career opportunities.
He has no idea if leads carry the grunts, the grunts carry the leads or everyone doing the best they can and this is the outcome. The game is not even bad, sitting at mid 80s.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
My comeback to that is if they are out of touch with "reality", what are they in touch with, or striving towards?

I'm not keen on filing people in positions of power away under simple designations like "stupid" or "greedy", when I think its way more plausible that they are simply reacting to what they perceive as different imperatives. Even if the end result looks/is the same.

Not saying this to defend their mistakes or spare their feelings, just that if there's an underlying cause its going to manifest somehow regardless of who's in the decision-making chair. So ignoring that I don't think is particularly helpful.
There isn't any specific cause i can pinpoint but what i notice are people in business that are worried with things that don't pertain to the company in question, obsessed with specific trends or ideas without understanding them, too into corporate culture or some type of corporate identy, sometimes just too full of themselves. And honestly this isn't something i see in gaming only, it plagues other areas too.

And naturally this is just a generalization, i don't think every company is like that. As much as i dislike Sony's direction for example i still think their businessheads are maintaning a proper mindset.

Their messaging has been utterly catastrophic for sure, but to be fair I'm not sure there's a way that they could adapt to the shifting economics without stirring up a lot of discontent. Again, not defending the decision, I spent way too long yesterday trying to figure out quite what their opaquely worded announcements and explanations actually meant - and I really do not have a dog in the fight so for me it was just an interesting thing to look at, and not something potentially ruinous to my livelihood... Meaning that I do understand why a lot of devs have reacted like they have.

Again, I'm just trying to be even-handed and look at the situation from a neutral position.
I care mainly because their decision is bad enough that could lead to the delisting of many great games. There are many ways they could've increased their revenue, sales royalties or fee based on sales/downloads-per-user but somehow they settled for a weird esoteric solution that even breaks their own TOS, and could obviously make way for lawsuits. It really cant be explained away without considering their leadership was being utterly incompetent.
 

Fabieter

Member
He's right. A leader is the one making decisions, esp in American companies where hierarchy is king, and everyone in the room nod yes/no according to the head tilt of the senior rank.

Bad working culture if an employee can't express criticism for better work and to put out a better product.
 

Cyberpunkd

Member
I think the 'devs can be lazy too' argument misses the fact that leadership is responsible for managing their staff, keeping folks motivated, ensuring teams are working together rather than in silos and outlining a crystal clear vision that everyone can drive towards. It's no easy task to do any of these things, but it's why leadership positions get paid so much more.
Vision yes, micromanaging every design decision - no. Devs will be up in flames if the suits will ask them to justify all their design choices, you won’t hear the end of how it “destroys creativity”.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
*looks at topic title

*looks at tweet*

wow
He’s just salty that he left Blizzard to found a failed developer that released a failed shooter no one remembers and now he won’t be getting any of that MS money when the purchase completes so he’s on a crusade for clout with console warriors.

Wasn't he also kicked out of the board ? or was that for a different studio he was in?
 
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Embearded

Member
Honestly, I like Cromwelp but calling it a "leadership problem" is also a disingenuous oversimplification. There's been a growing trend in the last few years of shifting any and all blame away from developers for making a poor product and while leadership definitely has a big hand in that, leadership aren't making every single tiny decision about a game that could improve it.

I don't make games, but I am a software dev, and I've made plenty of poor choices in my career that led to a worse product. Thankfully in my field this rarely matters too much and I can just patch it up over time based on feedback, because my sector isn't full of rabid gamers out for blood. But I just don't believe the myriad tiny issues in Starfield were all OK'd by a suit who refused to listen to any developer backlash. Did Todd, or any other bigwig at Bethesda really look at Starfield's inventory menu and say "you're not allowed to make this any better, it's perfect as it is"? StarUI is the #1 mod on NexusMods, it took one guy a few days to drastically improve it. That's a guy who identified a problem and solved it. That's a developer's job, too.

You do understand though that a developer cannot make the change if the manager doesn't allow it right?
 

BbMajor7th

Member
Vision yes, micromanaging every design decision - no. Devs will be up in flames if the suits will ask them to justify all their design choices, you won’t hear the end of how it “destroys creativity”.
The vision comes to the top and each team ladders up their own work and objectives to that vision. It's not about micro-management, it's about having a clear 'north star' for a company or product that says we want to deliver this. Creativity comes in finding the best ways, at every level, to deliver on that promise, from engine architecture and tools to quest design and writing.

Games that have that really clear vision and leadership tend to be very cohesive, with every part working to heighten every other, rather than conflicting with them.
 
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I can't take anyone seriously that lists that dunky review. I don't even know if 5/10 was his final number in that video.
It was a funny joking around type non-review.
 

AV

We ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space
You do understand though that a developer cannot make the change if the manager doesn't allow it right?

I do. I also understand as a developer that a manager very rarely attempts to control literally every aspect of a project, and also that managers can, should, and often are convinced that they're wrong by the people that work under them when it's obvious.

I don't work at Bethesda, I don't know what it's like in there. I just find the trend in recent years of public figures trying at all costs to avoid putting a single ounce of blame on developers themselves bizarre, and I don't really believe that Bethesda's such a tight-knight ship that management made honkingly bad design decisions that the rest of the team had to put up with. I just think that they're not as talented as others and failed to identify flaws.
 
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mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Yea I dont think the development team "pour their hearts into the project". Most of the devs just work to make a paycheck and feed their families. Only some may truly "care".

THAT'S a leadership issue. That's the point of being a leader. It's to lead the team. And pick people that have passion.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Leadership issue? What leadership issue?

phil-spencer-cringe.gif
"Our leadership sucks, so we have to buy everything up for good." - Phil Spender, probably
 

ClosBSAS

Member
i have less issues with starfield than with bg3...i adore both games but starfield the more i play the more i like..
 

Dick Jones

Gold Member
The 2 responses have fuck all to do with Starfield. It's that you can't call developers lazy and lack passion and any criticism anyone has of a game should be aimed at management/leadership. Unless there is another tweet outside the 2 in OP, then I'm not seeing it.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
He changed the subject to AAA gaming, not Starfield.

Stupid to engage though, as you inevitably end up all over console warrior's feeds.
 

Embearded

Member
I do. I also understand as a developer that a manager very rarely attempts to control literally every aspect of a project, and also that managers can, should, and often are convinced that they're wrong by the people that work under them when it's obvious.

I don't work at Bethesda, I don't know what it's like in there. I just find the trend in recent years of public figures trying at all costs to avoid putting a single ounce of blame on developers themselves bizarre, and I don't really believe that Bethesda's such a tight-knight ship that management made honkingly bad design decisions that the rest of the team had to put up with. I just think that they're not as talented as others and failed to identify flaws.

I am also a developer and we don't just change stuff we don't like. There is a process and not even everyone has the right to commit changes.

When a developer gets a task to implement a feature, someone has to review it, test it as a unit, then integrate it and run an integration test. You get reports for that and managers decide how to proceed.
If the developer fucks it up multiple times, he/she won't be there for long.

In the end, even if the problem comes from the developers, the manager should know it and react asap.
 

BlackTron

Member
As long as they keep the same engine it's leadership's fault. If Todd won't change it, blame Phil for not stepping in.

Failing to make this one change is preventing all those passionate devs working under you from reaching potential. You suck.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
I do. I also understand as a developer that a manager very rarely attempts to control literally every aspect of a project, and also that managers can, should, and often are convinced that they're wrong by the people that work under them when it's obvious.

I don't work at Bethesda, I don't know what it's like in there. I just find the trend in recent years of public figures trying at all costs to avoid putting a single ounce of blame on developers themselves bizarre, and I don't really believe that Bethesda's such a tight-knight ship that management made honkingly bad design decisions that the rest of the team had to put up with. I just think that they're not as talented as others and failed to identify flaws.
I am also a developer and we don't just change stuff we don't like. There is a process and not even everyone has the right to commit changes.

When a developer gets a task to implement a feature, someone has to review it, test it as a unit, then integrate it and run an integration test. You get reports for that and managers decide how to proceed.
If the developer fucks it up multiple times, he/she won't be there for long.

In the end, even if the problem comes from the developers, the manager should know it and react asap.
i'm pretty sure this kind of management philosophy varies from workplace to workplace. Some may be more rigid on what can and can't be done/changed, others may give employees more leeway, etc. Basically both of your experiences can be true and in the end we really don't know whats up at Bethesda.

Personally, i think its just a case of them playing too far off their element. They wanted to make a X type of game, realized probably early on in development their engine couldn't do the kind of game they wanted to do, but they couldn't afford to rebuild large elements of it. So they made a bunch of drawbacks in order to fit a large scale space RPG game within the limitations of their tools and experience, which created a bunch of design issues they couldn't really back down from.

So, not really devs or management fault, it was a game that was more or less destined to turn out like this the moment they decided to make it.
 

Embearded

Member
i'm pretty sure this kind of management philosophy varies from workplace to workplace. Some may be more rigid on what can and can't be done/changed, others may give employees more leeway, etc. Basically both of your experiences can be true and in the end we really don't know whats up at Bethesda.

Personally, i think its just a case of them playing too far off their element. They wanted to make a X type of game, realized probably early on in development their engine couldn't do the kind of game they wanted to do, but they couldn't afford to rebuild large elements of it. So they made a bunch of drawbacks in order to fit a large scale space RPG game within the limitations of their tools and experience, which created a bunch of design issues they couldn't really back down from.

So, not really devs or management fault, it was a game that was more or less destined to turn out like this the moment they decided to make it.

I agree, the case for Bethesda could be very different.
What i do not believe, is that a single dev has the power to change a feature that doesn't look nice without asking for permission, crrating a ticket and going through an established process.

I am not in game development, i am in an entirely different industry with similar or even less complexity levels and things do not work like that.
 
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