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[Reindeer]

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Yeah he also didn't mention the atrocious writing. Probably because he can't tell how bad it is. Does he seriously think that if Joel wasn't killed there, everything would be fine?

I'm not surprised that lot of people think this kind of poor writing is acceptable as were living in a time when there's so much mindless garbage on TV and cinema. People nowadays have been conditioned to switch their brains off and not pay too much attention to the complexity of the stories being told, so it's not surprising to see people have no awareness to poor writing.

 

[Reindeer]

Honestly the people rationalizing it as "MUH JOEL WOULD NEVER DO THIS" sound worse than the people simply emotional over it.

That's not what it's about, it's about having consistency in storytelling and character development, both things at which TLOU 2 fails epically compared to the original. This game was obviously set to be different and shocking from the ground up and the plot was playing a second fiddle to that.

 

[Paracelsus]

You either take all of him or none of him.
He said the FFVIIr plot is a chimp brain story.
Which is it, neogaf?

 

[bender]

I'm not surprised that lot of people think this kind of poor writing is acceptable as were living in a time when there's so much mindless garbage on TV and cinema. People nowadays have been conditioned to switch their brains off and not pay too much attention to the complexity of the stories being told, so it's not surprising to see people have no awareness to poor writing.

I think a lot of folks have a desire to see the medium of their favorite hobby elevated. Games are sometimes written off as lesser experiences than movies or books, when in reality they are just different. One of the strengths of games, interactivity, is also its' greatest weakness when it comes to story telling at least in big budget titles that need to appeal to a wide audience. I know ludonarrative dissonance got overused and then meme'd to death a few years back, but it seems apt for TLOU. It's hard for character deaths, especially one just introduced, to have any sort of impact when you've been the merchant of death to dozens, if not hundreds of enemies in the game prior.

I do think you are dead on about poor writing. Character dialog alone made me raise my eyebrow more than once and that's not taking into account that it feels like they wanted to ape the structure of Pulp Fiction but didn't really understand how to create a non-linear narrative. Add in a pinch of "we watched and really like The Walking Dead" and that's TLOU2 in a nutshell. It's mostly fine and a cut above the rest, especially in the AAA space, but that's a low bar to clear.

 

[-Arcadia-]

You either take all of him or none of him.
He said the FFVIIr plot is a chimp brain story.
Which is it, neogaf?

I choose, ‘He’s an amazing comedian, but he absolutely has crap taste in games.’

 

[Reindeer]

I think a lot of folks have a desire to see the medium of their favorite hobby elevated. Games are sometimes written off as lesser experiences than movies or books, when in reality they are just different. One of the strengths of games, interactivity, is also its' greatest weakness when it comes to story telling at least in big budget titles that need to appeal to a wide audience. I know ludonarrative dissonance got overused and then meme'd to death a few years back, but it seems apt for TLOU. It's hard for character deaths, especially one just introduced, to have any sort of impact when you've been the merchant of death to dozens, if not hundreds of enemies in the game prior.

I do think you are dead on about poor writing. Character dialog alone made me raise my eyebrow more than once and that's not taking into account that it feels like they wanted to ape the structure of Pulp Fiction but didn't really understand how to create a non-linear narrative. Add in a pinch of "we watched and really like The Walking Dead" and that's TLOU2 in a nutshell. It's mostly fine and a cut above the rest, especially in the AAA space, but that's a low bar to clear.

Writing in videogames doesn't always have to be on a high level I guess, a lot depends on the type of game it is and what it's trying to achieve. For example, we don't expect high level writing in fighting or racing games, we're even willing to to overlook some poor writing in games that mainly focus on gameplay and fun. Where we do expect good writing is in games that are narrative focused, games that are clearly set out to capture and invoke that Hollywood feeling.

Storytelling in videogames at the highest level have far surpassed the B grade zombie flick that is TLOU 2. The The Last of Us 1 didn't have a very complex story, but it was able to shine through with its simplicity by letting the story and characters develop at a steady pace. The second game is a mishmash of ideas with extremely poor pacing and writing.

 

[Nydus]

My dude, he literally put "SPOILER" before saying anything...

Ah that's nice. He didn't do it in the past, so clicking on anything from him could be a wild ride in terms of spoilers

 

[bender]

Writing in videogames doesn't always have to be on a high level I guess, a lot depends on the type of game it is and what it's trying to achieve. For example, we don't expect high level writing in fighting or racing games, we're even willing to to overlook some poor writing in games that mainly focus on gameplay and fun. Where we do expect good writing is in games that are narrative focused, games that are clearly set out to capture and invoke that Hollywood feeling.

Storytelling in videogames at the highest level have far surpassed the B grade zombie flick that is TLOU 2. The The Last of Us 1 didn't have a very complex story, but it was able to shine through with its simplicity by letting the story and characters develop at a steady pace. The second game is a mishmash of ideas with extremely poor pacing and writing.

Agreed. TLOU1's story was pretty B-grade too. It was just carried by Joel and Ellie's relationship dynamic and the wonderful chemistry of their voice acting as well as a lot of memorable side players (Marlene, Tess, Bill, Sam, Henry, David). This is re-enforced in the sequel during the Joel/Ellie museum flashback which almost makes playing through the rest of the slog worth it.

I think focus is where Naughty Dog gets caught in a trap. There are narrative focused genres (choose your own adventures from the likes of Telltale and David Cage) or adventure games but those lack mainstream appeal and you couldn't create the fidelity of games or get the voice talent found in Uncharted or TLOU. Mechanically their style of game play works better for pulp adventures which is why Uncharted has found so much success. That series was a little too bombastic for my liking which is why I appreciated the simplicity of TLOU. It felt more grounded mechanically and from a narrative perspective. That's probably my biggest disappointment from the sequel, too much seepage from Uncharted slipping in. I do think what they tried to accomplish with the narrative would have worked better in another genre without 20+ hours of brutal killing.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

He’s an amazing comedian

 

[Sub_Level]

You either take all of him or none of him.
He said the FFVIIr plot is a chimp brain story.
Which is it, neogaf?

Well I cant speak for this neogaf person but yes imo FFVIIr plot is a chimp brain story as much as I thoroughly enjoyed that game. Nomura's hackery knows no bounds.

Still day 1 for part II.

 

[pawel86ck]

I'm not surprised that lot of people think this kind of poor writing is acceptable as were living in a time when there's so much mindless garbage on TV and cinema. People nowadays have been conditioned to switch their brains off and not pay too much attention to the complexity of the stories being told, so it's not surprising to see people have no awareness to poor writing.

Let me translate for people what you really wrote. You think you are better and smarter than other people, therefore you cant accept when other people like something you dont. You are mistaken if you think attacking other people (suggesting they are dump) just because they share different opinion will make you look smarter. It works the other way around.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

That's not what it's about, it's about having consistency in storytelling and character development, both things at which TLOU 2 fails epically compared to the original. This game was obviously set to be different and shocking from the ground up and the plot was playing a second fiddle to that.

This is such a stretch it's barely even funny. You'll get support from the people over in the leaks thread, but you'll need to keep in mind they were mad about the "scene" even before the context for the scene existed. Suddenly they can claim it's about "consistency in storytelling and character development" when they were attacking it before they even knew the events leading to it. Which is why the critiques of the scene appear to be retro-fitted to suit their opinion they already had, kinda like what they're accusing the game of. These critiques fall apart on close inspection because there's nothing Joel, himself does that grossly contradicts his characterization.

 

[Reindeer]

Let me translate for people what you really wrote. You think you are better and smarter than other people, therefore you cant accept when other people like something you dont. You are mistaken if you think attacking other people (suggesting they are dump) just because they share different opinion will make you look smarter. It works the other way around.

That's a poor take on what I said and absolutely doesn't imply that. I never undermined people's intelligence, I said people are just ok with switching their brains off for a while so that they don't have to focus on the poor writing and complexity of what is being presented. This is indeed what lot of people do because they don't want to focus on the poor plot as it will hamper their enjoyment of the said content. I do this sometimes too if I want to have mindless fun, especially so with shooter genre that usually come with awful cliche stories. And I don't apologise for being able to criticise poor writing and pacing and other flaws of a game, something some people just don't really care about. I also don't apologise that certain people just have a very poor take on things and can make a thousand excused for a plot that has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

That's a poor take on what I said and absolutely doesn't imply that. I never undermined people's intelligence, I said people are just ok with switching their brains off for a while so that they don't have to focus on the poor writing and complexity of what is being presented. This is indeed what lot of people do because they don't want to focus on the poor plot as it will hamper their enjoyment of the said content. I do this sometimes too if I want to have mindless fun, especially so with shooter genre that usually come with awful cliche stories. And I don't apologise for being able to criticise poor writing and pacing and other flaws of a game, something some people just don't really care about. I also don't apologise that certain people just have a very poor take on things and can make a thousand excused for a plot that has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese.

Man, have you ever read anything more condescending than this?

 

[Reindeer]

This is such a stretch it's barely even funny. You'll get support from the people over in the leaks thread, but you'll need to keep in mind they were mad about the "scene" even before the context for the scene existed. Suddenly they can claim it's about "consistency in storytelling and character development" when they were attacking it before they even knew the events leading to it. Which is why the critiques of the scene appear to be retro-fitted to suit their opinion they already had, kinda like what they're accusing the game of. These critiques fall apart on close inspection because there's nothing Joel, himself does that grossly contradicts his characterization.

The second game has little to no relation to the character development, pacing and storytelling of the first game, if you can't see that then I got nothing else to say on this.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

The second game has little to no relation to the character development, pacing and storytelling of the first game, if you can't see that then I got nothing else to say on this.

"My statement is true regardless of backing so either agree or I'll stop responding"

 

[pawel86ck]

That's a poor take on what I said and absolutely doesn't imply that. I never undermined people's intelligence, I said people are just ok with switching their brains off for a while so that they don't have to focus on the poor writing and complexity of what is being presented. This is indeed what lot of people do because they don't want to focus on the poor plot as it will hamper their enjoyment of the said content. I do this sometimes too if I want to have mindless fun, especially so with shooter genre that usually come with awful cliche stories. And I don't apologise for being able to criticise poor writing and pacing and other flaws of a game, something some people just don't really care about. I also don't apologise that certain people just have a very poor take on things and can make a thousand excused for a plot that has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese.

Craig Mazim (screenwriter and film director) also like the story, but let's pretend your opinion is better than everyone else opinion.

 

[Reindeer]

"My statement is true regardless of backing so either agree or I'll stop responding"

You come across as someone who easily gets offended and are ready to misrepresent anything I say because I have a hard take on this and stand by it. I'm sorry I don't fall in line with what you trying to push here, the idea that everything is opinion. Certain things are just down to facts, the fact this game has many poor plot elements. If you don't like my take then move on and find someone who agrees with you, no need to make drama.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

You come across as someone who easily gets offended and are ready to misrepresent anything I say because I have a hard take on this and stand by it. I'm sorry I don't fall in line with what you trying to push here, the idea that everything is opinion. Certain things are just down to facts, the fact this game has many poor plot elements. If you don't like my take then move on and find someone who agrees with you, no need to make drama.

You still haven't said anything to back up your arguments. Can't you cite any of these factual plot holes? Just spoiler tag your words, it isn't hard to do!

 

[Reindeer]

Craig Mazim (screenwriter and film director) also like the story, but let's pretend your opinion is better than everyone else opinion.

That doesn't mean anything, many writers and directors thought Death Stranding was groundbreaking in its storytelling as well. I think we can all agree that Hollywood has had its share of poor writing and pacing that were criticised by people far more qualified and intelligent than me, so let's not pretend that a writer or director congratulating someone automatically means their opinion is correct. If we wanna be objective than we should criticise the subject for what it's is, not find individuals who agree with out take.

 

[Birdo]

The internet cycle is happening.

1. Popular thing gets hate.
2. Hating popular thing becomes popular.
3. People start hating the haters.
4. Hating the haters becomes popular.

And repeat.

 

[Revolutionary]

Craig Mazim (screenwriter and film director) also like the story, but let's pretend your opinion is better than everyone else opinion.

Druckmann is his friend and collaborator. You really think he's going to shit on his work?

 

[pawel86ck]

Druckmann is his friend and collaborator. You really think he's going to shit on his work?

Do you really think there's conspiracy theory everywhere and ND paid everyone including me for expressing positive opinion about their game?

 

[Reindeer]

You still haven't said anything to back up your arguments. Can't you cite any of these factual plot holes? Just spoiler tag your words, it isn't hard to do!

This has been discussed in many threads even here in Neogaf as well as other places, there are also dozens of videos online that have constructive criticism towards the game. I'm not gonna get into discussion about something that has already been discussed to death, especially because this thread isn't about that. My intention wasn't to get into this whole thing, I was initially pointing out what I thought was a poor take by Dunkey. If you haven't come across discussion about plot holes in this game then maybe you shouldn't be so dismissive towards it until you do.

 

[Reindeer]

Druckmann is his friend and collaborator. You really think he's going to shit on his work?

Many of Kojima friends and admirers from Hollywood were also quick to praise him for Death Stranding, but hey look, they must be right cause they work in the industry. Druckman has many friends in Hollywood and TV production, so it's not surprising people come out and praise him.

 

[Revolutionary]

Do you really think there's conspiracy theory everywhere and ND paid everyone including me for expressing positive opinion about their game?

You posted a positive tweet from Druckmann's friend in an attempt to prove that film writers love it. I was merely pointing out that that particular writer wouldn't say anything negative about his friend and collaborator.

Also, these are his film writing credits:

Not exactly the writer you would want to put on a pedestal.

 

[Reindeer]

You posted a positive tweet from Druckmann's friend in an attempt to prove that film writers love it. I was merely pointing out that that particular writer wouldn't say anything negative about his friend and collaborator.

Also, these are his film writing credits:

Not exactly the writer you would want to put on a pedestal.

No wonder he enjoyed the writing in this game, lol.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

I won't watch the video but I trust him more than the SkillUp review and I absolutely don't like Dunkey.

Also can't trust Jim Sterling who gave BioShock Infinitely Bad a 10/10 so...

 

[Explosive Zombie]

This has been discussed in many threads even here in Neogaf as well as other places, there are also dozens of videos online that have constructive criticism towards the game. I'm not gonna get into discussion about something that has already been discussed to death, especially because this thread isn't about that. My intention wasn't to get into this whole thing, I was initially pointing out what I thought was a poor take by Dunkey. If you haven't come across discussion about plot holes in this game then maybe you shouldn't be so dismissive towards it until you do.

I've seen plenty of bad arguments online, yes, you were making it sound like yours were so good they were factual, so I wanted to see yours.

 

[prinz_valium]

I'm not surprised that lot of people think this kind of poor writing is acceptable as were living in a time when there's so much mindless garbage on TV and cinema. People nowadays have been conditioned to switch their brains off and not pay too much attention to the complexity of the stories being told, so it's not surprising to see people have no awareness to poor writing.

Netflix Original Movies.

LUL
Yeah

 

[Sw0pDiller]

Great review, i like this reviewer...

 

[pawel86ck]

You still haven't said anything to back up your arguments. Can't you cite any of these factual plot holes? Just spoiler tag your words, it isn't hard to do!

Good question. It's strange when people criticize something, yet cant describe what's wrong with it.

Usually people who havent played the game thinks the story is disappointing:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2020/06/12/i-saw-leaks-thought-i-knew-i-was-still-not-prepared-last-us-part-ii/

I'm glad I havent read any leaks because I was able to play the game and discover everything by myself. I was shocked and moved by the story (emotional rollercoaster).

 

[Spukc]

Sony got to him.

It's over Bois.

BOYYYY
O
Y
Y
Y
Y

 

[Chromata]

Disappointing to see the talk around this game and people passing off some of the creative decisions as "poor writing". There's a legitimate conversation to be had here about the plot structure and character development (and no, not in a bad way). They expected the backlash knowing they took risks with this one which is something I applaud and I hope this reception doesn't deter them from taking any future risks in their games.

Unfortunately conversations on the internet have predictably turned into derision or dung slinging rather than dissecting the story.

 

[Mypmarlo]

Disappointing to see the talk around this game and people passing off some of the creative decisions as "poor writing". There's a legitimate conversation to be had here about the plot structure and character development (and no, not in a bad way). They expected the backlash knowing they took risks with this one which is something I applaud and I hope this reception doesn't deter them from taking any future risks in their games.

Unfortunately conversations on the internet have predictably turned into derision or dung slinging rather than dissecting the story.

So in between those "creative decisions" writing is of high quality?
Like well written dialog n characters?
Logical consistency is like... exists within Druckmenverse?



Owwwkeeeygh

 

[Chromata]

So in between those "creative decisions" writing is of high quality?
Like well written dialog n characters?
Logical consistency is like... exists within Druckmenverse?



Owwwkeeeygh

I would say so, yes.

The problem is that poor/low quality writing in and of itself is an unproductive criticism. If you just want to hate then it works, but if you really want to discuss a game then it's not going to get you anywhere.

 

[Yoboman]

Can't take this guy seriously after he comes up with the same old dumb narrative that people dislike the game because Joel gets killed early, smh. No, they dislike it because Joel was made to act completely out of character for that to happen and the dozens of other stupid things in the plot. This whole argument that "you dislike the game because you're attached to characters" is insulting to intelligence of anyone who realises that even a fifth grader could have easily come up with a much better plot.

How did he act out of character?

 

[Explosive Zombie]

How did he act out of character?

I can take a guess... if Joel had been "in-character" he'd A. Do everything he could to avoid going to Abby's camp which could end up killing the horses and stranding him in a blizzard but hey at least Joel didn't TRUST a person who he saved... B. He could have yelled at Tommy for telling Abby his name but it already happened so... doesn't really change much? C. He could have called Tommy a liar about who he is? Why? I dunno.

As the sequence is presented, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place and the woman they saved offers refuge, Tommy had already told her their names, he was doing so as a calming mechanism in case she was in shock and needed focus, he says their names then asks hers. This is fine for Tommy's character, had Joel done it I could maybe see complaining but Tommy is a nicer, more helpful guy. They had just survived a swarm of bs together and she had saved their lives more than once in addition to them saving theirs, she's by herself at this point and there's no reason to assume their names should trigger anything, like say a need for revenge over something that occurred four years prior. All of this is besides the point of... Tommy says it, not Joel but somehow the argument hinges on JOEL acting out of character.

 

[Barnabot]

Let me translate for people what you really wrote. You think you are better and smarter than other people, therefore you cant accept when other people like something you dont. You are mistaken if you think attacking other people (suggesting they are dump) just because they share different opinion will make you look smarter. It works the other way around.

wasn't you the guy who created a safespace tlou2 thread for 'fans only' and 'no haters' according to your rules which got locked afterwards and you now are talking about 'cant accept when other people like something you don't?

 

[GymWolf]

How spoilery is this review??

 

[Barnabot]

How spoilery is this review??

knack3 out 10
and he loves knack

 

[GymWolf]

I Thought everyone hated him after his negative FF7R review

People hated him because he said the truth??

 

[GymWolf]

knack3 out 10
and he loves knack

I heard that it is very spoilery...

 

[Sub_Level]

How spoilery is this review??

It shows a lot of the second half of the game.

It does say in the video when spoilers happen, tho. So you can watch the first few minutes.

 

[GymWolf]

It shows a lot of the second half of the game.

It does say in the video when spoilers happen, tho. So you can watch the first few minutes.

Nah, i can wait, thanks.

 

[Yoboman]

I can take a guess... if Joel had been "in-character" he'd A. Do everything he could to avoid going to Abby's camp which could end up killing the horses and stranding him in a blizzard but hey at least Joel didn't TRUST a person who he saved... B. He could have yelled at Tommy for telling Abby his name but it already happened so... doesn't really change much? C. He could have called Tommy a liar about who he is? Why? I dunno.

As the sequence is presented, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place and the woman they saved offers refuge, Tommy had already told her their names, he was doing so as a calming mechanism in case she was in shock and needed focus, he says their names then asks hers. This is fine for Tommy's character, had Joel done it I could maybe see complaining but Tommy is a nicer, more helpful guy. They had just survived a swarm of bs together and she had saved their lives more than once in addition to them saving theirs, she's by herself at this point and there's no reason to assume their names should trigger anything, like say a need for revenge over something that occurred four years prior. All of this is besides the point of... Tommy says it, not Joel but somehow the argument hinges on JOEL acting out of character.

Even if it had been Joel I wouldn't say its out of character. Joels entire character in this game is how he has grown more trusting and fatherly and settled down into the Jackson community, become civilised. This is the issue with the people in Jackson, which was the point of the flashback where Joel and Ellie go through the hotel - which Joel had been lax about clearing out. There was a sub story about two people who left Jackson to help people in the wider world and in their naivety were killed almost immediately. Maybe Joel never would have helped Abbie before, but he became civilised. Its a big part of his story in this game

 

[MisterBrimstone]

My favorite review on LOU2

Now this is a review that sums up how I feel about the game. Guess he ain't getting a review copy from Sony anymore.

 

[Kuranghi]

I'm not surprised that lot of people think this kind of poor writing is acceptable as were living in a time when there's so much mindless garbage on TV and cinema. People nowadays have been conditioned to switch their brains off and not pay too much attention to the complexity of the stories being told, so it's not surprising to see people have no awareness to poor writing.

Tell me about it mate, I just stopped watching TV shows last year because I was recommended (personally in some cases or by the internet at large) like 10 shows in a row that turned out to be decent, not "amazing" (or even great) like people spurt out blindly these days. I'm comparing them to other top quality TV shows from the last 20 years.

Watchmen, The Mandalorian and The Boys were letdowns for me. I was expecting anything really, I don't care about SW that much or the Watchmen lore, I went in with no expectations and was still disappointed.

I think I need to just watch Ozark and Chernobyl and then bide my time, they seem to be the only two shows that are worthy of the praise they get. I've started Devs, and its interesting but my "wank-o-meter" is detecting some activity after just a couple of episodes.

This is what happens when you tell people everything they make is great instead of being honest. You end up with a bunch of average pap. Remember when there were actually funny sitcoms? It was only like 10 years ago lol

Whats the best sitcom out right now, according to everyone here?

 

[Kuranghi]

Nah, i can wait, thanks.

Aye, I think you are just better playing the game with no outside influence mate, if you enjoyed the combat in the first (I believe you said you did, on higher difficulties especially) I think you'll really like the combat of TLOU2.

The ragdolls/transitions to ragdoll from animation are amazing, some of the best I've ever seen in a game.

 

[GymWolf]

Aye, I think you are just better playing the game with no outside influence mate, if you enjoyed the combat in the first (I believe you said you did, on higher difficulties especially) I think you'll really like the combat of TLOU2.

The ragdolls/transitions to ragdoll from animation are amazing, some of the best I've ever seen in a game.

Dude i'm already at 20 hours with the game, after the first one there was no chance of me missing the day one with the sequel.

And yes the dead animations are delightful