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[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Has anyone answered this? Maybe I'm just very stupid but how does buying a publisher create more competition when we know good and well that they're going to push 99% of their products as exclusive

Why is Sony dominating? Microsoft had more money and more studios without Activision. So why is Sony dominating? Don't pretend Microsoft is some small indie company either.

Same reason Google failed with Stadia, Sega with the Saturn or Amazon is struggling with Luna. Despite what many gamers want to think money doesn't = autowin. Look at Steam, Valve isn't a trillion dollar company yet they are dunking on far bigger companies like Epic, Tencent, Microsoft and Amazon!

Money is just one part of the equation which is exactly why this acquisition is being approved, if money was all that mattered then Google, Amazon would have eradicated Nintendo and Sony, Intel wouldn't have gotten stomped on by little AMD post Zen and Valve would have been deleted by Microsoft during the Gfwl days.

 

[modiz]

I mean are you really going to be mad 25 years later after Sega tried it first on the first game?

Tomb Raider became a defacto mascot for PlayStation, it's no surprise they cosied up after it was a big hit for PlayStation and the devs

I'm not mad, I'm just pointing out that they still do it to this day. It all started back then. Now things changed because Microsoft has even deeper pockets than Sony.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Remember people said what would Microsoft do if the deal didn't pass? Well what are sony gonna do? Because Microsoft are really coming at them here and regulators ain't getting in the way. They must feel hugely threatened right now and I'm interested to see how they respond. Even more aggressive moneyhatting? Japanese publishers? Maybe even a western one as a defensive move before Microsoft swallow them up. Man i don't like this publisher buying crap. The industry is about to change, big time.

I expect more 3rd party deals and smart but minor acquisitions. I don't think Xbox stands a chance at outselling the PS5 this gen so Sony has plenty of time to prepare but next gen MS should have a better footing in the industry, yet I still expect PS to be more popular in Europe and Asia 2 huge markets. MS can't win on NA alone.

 

[DForce]

One thing is abandoning a console from third party, another thing is paying so games don't release on a competitor's console.
Why did Sony pay *at all* if games would not come to Saturn anyway?
Sony established a business practice for them in the 90's and continued to do so until today.

They paid games to release on their platform because Sony didn't have any real first party studios or established IPs like Sega and Nintendo.

This is exactly what Microsoft did when they launched the Xbox console.

This had almost nothing to do with with Sony's downfall.

Sega Game Gear flopped
Sega 32x flopped
Sega CD flopped
Sega Saturn flopped. Launched $100 more than the PlayStation console and it was rushed out of the door because they were scared of Nintendo and the upcoming PlayStation console.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

I never really liked this whole gaming thing anyway. i'm more of a movie guy

Hope you don't watch Disney, Marvel, Star Wars stuff.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

The CMA really fucked up their math and MS sort of embarrassed them on it. Doesn't mean they'll pass it through though there is still the cloud gaming considerations.


Read the submissions sent to the CMA by 3rd parties.

Some 3rd parties want Xbox to be more competitive, because right now in the hardcore "high end" home console space Sony being so dominant is not some boon for 3rd parties.

There were no 3rd party submissions against the acquisition for these reasons, other than Sony.

For 3rd parties not named Sony COD being exclusive to Xbox (which for quite some time won't happen) would be good for them, and increase their ability to compete overall

You got a source on those 3rd party submissions? Sounds interesting.

 

[modiz]

I expect more 3rd party deals and smart but minor acquisitions. I don't think Xbox stands a chance at outselling the PS5 this gen so Sony has plenty of time to prepare but next gen MS should have a better footing in the industry, yet I still expect PS to be more popular in Europe and Asia 2 huge markets. MS can't win on NA alone.

If you still think it's only about consoles then yeah. Gaming is way more than "my favorite plastic box sells more than yours".
Microsoft don't buy ABK so people on GAF can rub it in the face of others, they do it because gaming is already more than consoles and it will grow even more, even if total console sales will remain stagnant.
Sony will of course still sell consoles and games but once CoD becomes associated with Xbox sales of Xbox consoles will rise, Gamepass will have more subs on PC and console, and they will get money from playstation, Nintendo, GFN and many more, too.

 

[Ar¢tos]

So you're saying that the MS ABK merger could be the start of the Sony downfall and that should have been stopped. Thanks for clearing it up. I wholeheartedly agree with your conclusions. The merger should not have passed.

In some ways, the MS ABK merger has the possibility to be the start of Xbox downfall.

There is the risk of MS screwing up the management of ABK like they have been doing with their studios and MS will eventually get tired of Xbox division fails.

Then there is Sony reaction to it, it can go from nothing to serious damage to the Xbox division.

It's a guessing game at this point.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Name the 3rd parties.

We've been here before.

During the Brazilian regulator prove there were many companies who came out for the acquisition. I remember seeing Ubisoft, Riot and many others.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

If you still think it's only about consoles then yeah. Gaming is way more than "my favorite plastic box sells more than yours".
Microsoft don't buy ABK so people on GAF can rub it in the face of others, they do it because gaming is already more than consoles and it will grow even more, even if total console sales will remain stagnant.
Sony will of course still sell consoles and games but once CoD becomes associated with Xbox sales of Xbox consoles will rise, Gamepass will have more subs on PC and console, and they will get money from playstation, Nintendo, GFN and many more, too.

No I agree it's more than consoles but Sony is concerned about their console losing market share which is why I said what I said.

 

[Monad]

It's been a while since I read this thread and all your fantastic contributions.

What stage is SonyGAF in after recent events? Resignation, denial, conversion...?

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Convenient. As convenient as this,

Sounds like the CMA got their original provisional findings quite wrong and additional evidence proved critical in better understanding the industry. Same thing happened in the shift from Phase 1 to Phase 2 where in Phase 1 the CMA was accused of being a Sony spokes team. The issue was that they took Sony's statements at face value and had not yet delved deep into the industry but the more time that passed the more skeptical they grew of their phase 1 observations.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

He is a merger and acquisition lawyer. This is literally his field. You claim he's "jumping to conclusions", which is funny because that is actually exactly what you've been doing all this time. Your whole argument that the Bungie acquisition was without any terms or conditions is nothing more than assumption

No one gives a shit what he is. He has no information and is making assumptions based on nice fluffy PR. His worth as a legal analyst is moot when he has nothing to actually analyse.

The facts are, Sony owns Bungie and everything that comes with that, as is the case for every other wholly owned subsidiary. Any Asterix you want to add to that is baseless conjecture, or in your case just hopes and dreams.

 

[Yoboman]

He is a merger and acquisition lawyer. This is literally his field. You claim he's "jumping to conclusions", which is funny because that is actually exactly what you've been doing all this time. Your whole argument that the Bungie acquisition was without any terms or conditions is nothing more than assumption.

"Bungie will continue to operate independently, maintaining the ability to self-publish and reach players wherever they choose to play." If you're independently operating and independently self publishing, then Sony has no say in it. That's the very definition of independent.

You're blatantly misrepresenting what he's said. Here is what he's actually said:
"I don't know if I've ever seen a purchase that says, after we're done buying you, you get to operate independently and maintain your own, unilateral ability, to self-publish your content and decide what markets you are selling into."
Which is not what the press release in your example says at all, as it only describes independent operation.

I have no idea why you keep insisting as if it's completely normal for an acquisition for a platform holder will remain full creative, operation and publishing independence, all while announcing it as a fully multiplatform studio. Because it isn't.

All of this is besides the point.

1. Don't care if he is an M&A lawyer when his conclusions are identifiably bad and based on pure conjecture. In fact I'm sure he'd say he doesn't know as well, the only one who seems to think they know beyond a shadow of a doubt what's in Sony's contracts with Bungie is you.

Any assumptions I have is based on the normal parent subsidiary relationship you would see in these deals. Yours is based on wild guesswork from a PR statement

2. "If you're independently operating and independently self publishing, then Sony has no say in it. That's the very definition of independent."

Boy this is getting tiring. Maybe it would be easier for you to go read about subsidiaries:
LINK

Parent companies can be directly involved in the operations of the subsidiary company, or they can take a completely hands-off approach. For instance, the parent company can allow the subsidiary company to retain its managerial control. Subsidiary companies can be wholly or partially owned by a parent company, but a parent company is required to own over half of the voting stock in the subsidiary company.

While subsidiary company directors are allowed to manage the company as they see fit, the parent company can remove the directors in the event of unsatisfactory performance. Allowing directors to run the subsidiary company without constant oversight is generally a much better solution than the parent company dictating operations.

Parent companies have several methods for controlling subsidiary companies without infringing on their independence. The ability to fire board members and hire new ones is a useful method for a parent company to control its subsidiaries. This power, however, can be strengthened.

For instance, a parent company can give itself additional control of the subsidiary company by writing the Articles of Incorporation with a variety of provisions:

• Preventing the subsidiary from amending the Articles of Incorporation without parent company approval.
• Limiting the subsidiary corporate officers' authority in company bylaws.
• Using the bylaws to clearly outline how directors can be removed and elected.

If the parent company wants, it can appoint its own directors to the board of the subsidiary company.

3. As I said, it is common particularly with Tencent and Embracer in recent years. Just because Microsoft has not allowed any purchase to act independently doesn't mean it can't be done. And it has no relationship to whether Sony (or Tencent in other examples) give up their rights as a parent company

 

[hlm666]

It's been a while since I read this thread and all your fantastic contributions.

What stage is SonyGAF in after recent events? Resignation, denial, conversion...?

Moved onto it all being about cloud gaming now and they will block it because ms will have a cloud monopoly or something. That's the gist of it from the 10 mins I just wasted.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

CMA actually did a total 180! I told you guys Microsoft would make an offer they couldn't refuse. Approve it or a bullet to the back of the head.

Sony needs to stop being cheap and invest a few hundred dollars in a gun

 

[Three]

I'm not mad, I'm just pointing out that they still do it to this day. It all started back then. Now things changed because Microsoft has even deeper pockets than Sony.

It started way before Sony were even in the console business. I even showed you the limited timed one that Sega did before TR2. It wasn't even "deep pockets" that got them that TR2 deal it was Playstations install base and popularity that did.

 

[Rykan]

No one gives a shit what he is. He has no information and is making assumptions based on nice fluffy PR. His worth as a legal analyst is moot when he has nothing to actually analyse.

The facts are, Sony owns Bungie and everything that comes with that. Any Asterix you want to add to that is baseless conjecture, or in your case just hopes and dreams.

And absolutely nobody is surprised that you don't care about a person who is an expert on this field, Can.

If you want to only stick to the information announced thus far, be my guest: Bungie and Sony have confirmed that Bungie will remain an independent developer and independent publisher with full creative control, and will continue to keep making multiplatform games.

 

[Godot25]

Gotta love all the doom and gloom in last several pages.
Love implications that Microsoft buying ABK will somehow open the floodgates of publisher acquisition. Like if Microsoft was blocked it would not happen otherwise. For real. If Apple wanted to buy Ubisoft/EA/Take 2 after in world where regulators would block ABK, what would be their reasoning to block Apple? Apple doesn't have a footprint in PC/console gaming. They don't have a smidge of marketshare. Same for Google. Amazon is too small in games industry to block anything.
There is no case where you can block any of those companies from gobbling up publishers if they wanted to. Literally no case.

And funniest thing is that it literally don't matter at all. I counted 30+ studios in last several years that were created by people with huge amount of experience that are creating AAA games. Games industry is the only industry where you can create hit with 4 people and small budget (unlike film industry) so trying to pretend that this deal will somehow hurt industry is just funny at this point.

Funniest shit was that Microsoft called CMA out for their wrong calculations and people around here made fun of them that they are grasping straws. Meanwhile it is clear that CMA really made a mistake in calculations and they corrected those calculations that end up changing their outcome. But yes, "Microsoft bribed them." If CMA blocked this deal Microsoft would for sure go to the CAT to appeal the decision based on wrong model made by CMA.

I also love CMA changing position only because it will probably end up blowing to Jim Ryan's face and his "I want to block your merger." I don't think Sony will go and buy megapublisher because they simply don't have money to do so. Square? Sure. But Take-Two/EA are probably off the table.

But tbh. I don't think Sony will go to Microsoft to accept that 10 year deal. Because they knew that there is not a chance Microsoft will pull COD out of PlayStation even without deal. It was just fear mongering and posturing for regulators in desperate attempt to block this deal. They are afraid of COD on Game Pass and implications for them. It was clear from their arguments. First it was "Microsoft will take COD from PlayStation." When Microsoft addressed them it was "But the will have exclusive rights to have COD on Game Pass." When Microsoft offered them same for PS Plus they said they don't want COD for PS Plus. And then it was "COD on PlayStation will have more bugs." Which was just pathetic.

Will other ActiBlizz games go exclusive? Probably yes. Outside of games like Overwatch. But since Sony made it about COD it's clear they don't care about anything other then COD.

Silver lining is that Microsoft, thanks to this deal, probably won't have year like 2022, without AAA game. Since new COD is coming out every year . Immediate implications will be small - marketing deal for COD on PlayStation is valid until 2024, so no COD on day one on Game Pass until 2025 sadly. Games like Diablo IV, Crash Team Rumble will be nice for GP, but since they won't come on day one it won't be a big deal.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

And absolutely nobody is surprised that you don't care about a person who is an expert on this field, Can.

If you want to only stick to the information announced thus far, be my guest: Bungie and Sony have confirmed that Bungie will remain an independent developer and independent publisher with full creative control, and will continue to keep making multiplatform games.

Again, his worth is analysing legal documents. All he's done here is make laughably delusional guesses on a PR fluff piece

Why don't you just educate yourself instead of relying on others do make guesses for you?

 

[Rykan]

Again, his worth is analysing legal documents. All he's done here is make laughably delusional guesses on a PR fluff piece

Why don't you just educate yourself instead of relying on others do make guesses for you?

Yeah that sounds like a great idea.Perhaps I should educate myself. Maybe I could go to law school and become a lawyer that specialize in mergers and acquisitions. Perhaps I could start a YouTube channel and make over 1k videos analyzing and commenting on legal topics, so that some guy on a forum who calls himself ass of can whooping can tell me nobody cares who you are and that everything you say is a "laughably delusional guess" because your only worth is "analysing legal documents".

Sounds great.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Yeah that sounds like a great idea. Maybe i should educate myself. Maybe i could go to law school and become a lawyer that specialize in mergers and acquisitions. Perhaps I could start a YouTube channel and make over 1k videos analyzing and commenting on legal topics, so that some guy on a forum who calls himself ass of can whooping can tell me nobody cares who you are and that everything you say is a "laughably delusional guess" because your only worth is "analysing legal documents".

Sounds great.

You don't need to go to law school. This isn't a contract. It's PR work. How many times do companies need to tell you one thing and do the other before you stop being so gullible?

A basic google search will tell you all you need to know about the implications of becoming a wholly owned subsidiary, and there is no precedence that the parent of a wholly owned subsidiary cannot enact it's control over it.

 

[PaintTinJr]

In theory yes the Cloud SLC still exists and need to be resolved, I am still not sure about the open licensing agreement that MS is offering to the regulators. MSFT has basically approved any BYOG that running Windows or willing to do the proton work to get it working.

I would like them to open it to PS Now as an option if/when Sony allows you to stream games that you own.

I actually think the "do the proton work" is the very tip of spear for the Cloud SLC because of Windows +95% share of the O/S for PC gaming the CMA originally raised and it the cross branding with Xbox (Direct-X Box) for the deal showing ability to leverage the ATVI acquisition assets to strengthen their three decades long PC OS monopoly.

 

[modiz]

It started way before Sony were even in the console business. I even showed you the limited timed one that Sega did before TR2. It wasn't even "deep pockets" that got them that TR2 deal it was Playstations install base and popularity that did.

It was deep pockets that made Sony successful in the console business. By buying, by negotiating, by making deals for games.

 

[reksveks]

I generally find when people dismiss the sharing of opinions of 'experts' have no issues with sharing opinions of 'experts' that agree with their position. If you are going to dismiss someone's position/opinion , at least be civil to why you doing so imo. I understand why people dismissing Fosspatents opinions due to his history with MS and Blizzard.

Re:Sony's influence on Destiny and Bungie, I expect Sony to implement some partial foreclosure tactics.

 

[Rykan]

A basic google search will tell you all you need to know about the implications of becoming a wholly owned subsidiary

Exactly, why listen to a lawyer that specializes in mergers and acquisitions saying that there might be a contract in place, when you can do a google search.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Sony’s public statements regarding Bungie are all about retaining the talent. They didn’t actually buy Bungie for 3B either, as over a billion of it is for bonuses that aim to convince the talent to stay at Bungie.

Because you know, when you buy an employee owned company like Bungie a lot of the talent stand to make a lot of money and it’s harder to convince people to stay.

Bungie left MS because MS only cared about Halo. They didn’t leave Activision, they just ended their contract two years earlier.

If Sony changes their stance on Bungie they run the risk of losing the talent. People who think effectively Sony paid 3B to be buddies with Bungie are idiots.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Exactly, why listen to a lawyer that specializes in mergers and acquisitions saying that there might be a contract in place, when you can do a google search.

Obviously there's a contract in place. There needs to be a contract for them to purchase those shares just as there needs to be a contract for Microsoft to buy ActBliz. Good job stating the obvious?

 

[Rykan]

Obviously there's a contract in place. There needs to be a contract for them to purchase those shares just as there needs to be a contract for Microsoft to buy ActBliz. Good job stating the obvious?

He's talking about a contract that specifies that Bungie remains in control. Did you even read or listen to what he said before you convinced yourself that your 5 minute google search exceeded his expertise?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

He's talking about a contract that specifies that Bungie remains in control. Did you even read or listen to what he said before you convinced yourself that your 5 minute google search exceeded his expertise?

Okay, so where's the contract he's analysed

 

[Rykan]

Okay, so where's the contract he's analysed

We don't have access to the contract, hence the term might.

 

[Majukun]

Oh really? How so? How long as an investor would you have to wait to man a return on a $70b investment? If subs don’t go up or move the needle and of course you’re not gonna caring about sales, then what? Can you elaborate on what scenarios they’re playing with to these investors?

The scenario that it's not the first time that to establish presence in a sector, a company and it's investors accept to stay in red for years. Amazon famously was on red for five years before start making a profit, because you need to spend money in advance to gain market share.

Netflix has been equally dealing with red for years, and just now they are starting seeing some measures to Crack down on the red like tackling shared accounts.

And these were startups, basically starting with no money or revenue to speak of. Microsoft has a lot of revenue coming from other sources or already in the bank to cover for the reds and can justify it to investors the same way that other companies did in the past, establishing a foothold in a blooming sector so that when it blossoms they are leading the charge.

Of course if past the long period the investment does not work as intended, they will evaluate how to course correct, but they are not scrambling to recoup in the short period.

And to have a proof of this you just need to compare how much they paid for the whole deal and how much profit actibliz was actually making yearly... Even leaving everything as it is now, so with Sony sales untouched, it will still take then close to a decade to recoup the initial investment... They did not spend those 70bln for them to bare fruit through game sales.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

We don't have access to the contract, hence the term might.

Then all he has are personal opinions on a PR fluff piece and has no value

 

[TheGodfather07]

I expect more 3rd party deals and smart but minor acquisitions. I don't think Xbox stands a chance at outselling the PS5 this gen so Sony has plenty of time to prepare but next gen MS should have a better footing in the industry, yet I still expect PS to be more popular in Europe and Asia 2 huge markets. MS can't win on NA alone.

Cod is huge in Europe. If COD was to ever become exclusive, I expect xbox to gain significant ground over there. Xbox could be the only console that plays both COD and FIFA. That's huge. Both are the two biggest sellers in Europe every year and have been for ages.

 

[Three]

It was deep pockets that made Sony successful in the console business. By buying, by negotiating, by making deals for games.

It wasn't, that's just what you want to believe with an example where Saturn was already dead and you have no idea how much money if any changed hands for.

Reality was that it was their hardware and marketing that Sony were good at. Namely creating/going CDROM to attract and lower risk for publishers, lower cost of games, and being a hardware company able to build the PS1 and sell it much cheaper than Sega did the Saturn.

 

[dotnotbot]

Cod is huge in Europe. If COD was to ever become exclusive, I expect xbox to gain significant ground over there. Xbox could be the only console that plays both COD and FIFA. That's huge. Both are the two biggest sellers in Europe every year and have been for ages.

I feel like making succesful FIFA competitor would be actually much easier than making COD competitor

 

[Godot25]

Take 2 stock valuation is at $19b-$20b. Sony valuation is at $100b-$110b valuation.

That is just base take 2 without any set of price. Take 2 would demand more than $20b, due to Activision sale.

If Sony somehow managed to get that price, they will still have to compete with other big giants.
Activision shopped itself, when MS put $81+ per share price. Then they comeback and demanded current price.

That is what take 2 would do.

Sony would have to pay more than $30b just to buy take 2, assuming they take out a loan.

I don't think current Sony is willing to risk that. They aren't MS who have a stable printing business.

Yup. That sounds about right.

And more. Take 2 shareholders literally have no reason to sell right now. They have GTA VI probably in 2024 coming which will shoot prices of shares into stratosphere. So why would they sell now when market cap is 20 billion when they can have market cap of few billions more thanks to GTA VI?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I generally find when people dismiss the sharing of opinions of 'experts' have no issues with sharing opinions of 'experts' that agree with their position. If you are going to dismiss someone's position/opinion , at least be civil to why you doing so imo. I understand why people dismissing Fosspatents opinions due to his history with MS and Blizzard.

Re:Sony's influence on Destiny and Bungie, I expect Sony to implement some partial foreclosure tactics.

Hoeg's value doesn't come from guesswork of nice PR words. Hence it's being dismissed

 

[ManaByte]

https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/50989

 

[TheGodfather07]

I feel like making succesful FIFA competitor would be actually much easier than making COD competitor

If they had licenses, then yes a fifa competitor is very possible.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/50989

What's the point of even posting this?

 

[Rykan]

What's the point of even posting this?

I'm actually kind of wondering why you're posting anything then? With that same logic as you used earlier to dismiss actual acquisition lawyers, personal opinions don't mean anything.

 

[reksveks]

I actually think the "do the proton work" is the very tip of spear for the Cloud SLC because of Windows +95% share of the O/S for PC gaming the CMA originally raised and it the cross branding with Xbox (Direct-X Box) for the deal showing ability to leverage the ATVI acquisition assets to strengthen their three decades long PC OS monopoly.

Based off one of the mlex or Reuters article re the EC dropped the issue re OS choice for Consumers because honestly ABK isn't going to strengthen that position and it largely doesn't make a meaningful difference to OS. Re OS choice for cloud services providers, yeah, I suspect that there still may be issues but I suspect that they have the ability to offer a couple of concessions for those concerns (but I don't know the maths behind it) aka offering a single licensing term for Windows Client/Server licenses which the CMA called out. In my opinion, the benefits then may outweight the concerns.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I'm actually kind of wondering why you're posting anything? All you have are personal opinions and thus of no value.

Parent companies being able to exert control over wholly owned subsidiaries isn't an opinion

 

[Three]

What's the point of even posting this?

Because they are conflating the idea that Bungie and thus Sony want to release their next game on as many platforms as possible to mean Sony has some unseen contract but don't actually want to. The usual nonsense.

 

[draliko]

You always forgot that ms didn't spent 70bn, they invested 70bn and now will probably have assets worth that much in form of employees, infrastructure, know-how, patents, ips, and game sales. They're not short of 70bn cash, they bought something valued 70bn, the same thing when you buy a house or a car...

 

[Rykan]

Parent companies being able to exert control over wholly owned subsidiaries isn't an opinion

"Remain a fully independent developer and publisher that will continue to make multiplatform games" isn't an opinion either.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

"Remain a fully independent developer and publisher that will continue to make multiplatform games" isn't an opinion either.

And that is evidence of your imaginary contract how?

 

[Thirty7ven]

"Remain a fully independent developer and publisher that will continue to make multiplatform games" isn't an opinion either.

If you only you didn’t replace the words for ones that support your opinion. If you want to quote, quote.

Nowhere does it say fully independent.

 

[Rykan]

And that is evidence of your imaginary contract how?

Oh, you thought they did a pinky swear?