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[64bitmodels]

I think they will fuck it up, but it could also be done well seeing Microsoft's corePC initiative for windows 12, plus Windows 8 was remarkably optimized compared to Windows 7 apparently. I don't have enough faith in modern Microsoft to make it good without a catch though.

I just want more optimizations done to the kernel itself- even with LTSC, Windows is still significantly slower than a Linux distribution. All the MS seniors need to get together and try and beat Linux in sheer speed, even if it means adopting new tech for the kernel and breaking some old apps in the process

 

[feynoob]

Seeing the potential market for cloud gaming is the exact opposite of the business you're suggesting of selling an OS version to OEMs. The business opportunity there is selling the content on anything and everything. On as many platforms and OS as possible.

By your logic they shouldn't do cloud gaming because they would be losing windows sales to other OS like Android, iOS, macOS, linux, etc. When I suggest that they should concentrate on getting their content (games, gamepass) on whats already there for steamdeck instead of concentrating on the OS this is what I mean. For them to concentrate on content support.

The business opportunity is windows being able to run games like PC.
It will just be another mini PC gaming device.

And the benefits is that most games who don't support Linux will be able to run on those devices because of windows. That is huge incentives for handheld makers.

MS will reap the benefits from those companies.

Or they could have gamepass support on unix and open standards meaning linux, mac, and steamdeck exposure for gamepass. The only reason they would do it is to prop the actual OS business otherwise there are far better ways to get more gamepass customers.

Gamepass isn't MS only first party games. It needs support from other devs to make that work.
It's not up to MS to do that.

 

[feynoob]

the second sentence was meant to point out the irony in the idea that the VR market is small when a VR headset that debuted in 2020 is somehow selling about as much as a 20 year old console brand. It isn't fanboyism because i'd rather kill myself then fanboy for the Zuck.

Quest 2 is good VR because it has good apps.
I don't know about psvr 2, but the quest 2 gives content like boxing and relaxing environment.

It's a good system for average collar business people.

 

[reksveks]

even if it means adopting new tech for the kernel and breaking some old apps in the process

That's the thing that they cant do sadly. Having alot of business users does seem to freeze them slightly.

 

[Ozriel]

the second sentence was meant to point out the irony in the idea that the VR market is small when a VR headset that debuted in 2020 is somehow selling about as much as a 20 year old console brand. It isn't fanboyism because i'd rather kill myself then fanboy for the Zuck.

This is a pointless derail. Are you having difficulties reading the thread title? Or understanding the OP?

 

[Ozriel]

What position have I taken, that it isn't something MS are doing is a position MS are currently in and I see them being in for the foreseeable future.

Based on what do you assume the majority of handheld gaming PCs would be running windows? Do we have any comparisons of the amount of handheld gaming devices in the wild and the OS they run? I'd imagine most of the small market of handheld PC gaming devices are running steamOS at the moment.

Aside from the SteamDeck, pretty much every other handheld gaming PC runs Windows out of the box. Aya Neo, GPD Win, Asus’ upcoming ROG handheld etc. all Windows

I have a Deck with SteamOS and Windows dual opted off a 1TB SSD, so I know what I’m talking about, and the UI and OS quirks + workarounds for Windows on Deck.

I also know first hand the niggling compatibility issues with SteamOS.

I'd prefer native game and gamepass support on steamOS. That might even mean gamepass support on linux and mac, how good would that be right? What a strange position to take, I know.

A handheld gaming Windows OS version might be good competition too. Doesn’t mean it's something I should be interested in though, consider better, or that it's commercially happening.

Valve themselves are perfectly happy to push proton as the way to go, and most of Microsoft’s games work on SteamOS and Linux that way.

There’s no ask for an extensive rewrite of Windows for handheld gaming PCs. Most visible improvements would be in power management, enhanced suspend/resume and a big picture mode for games…among other things.

You’ve been moving goalposts, so it’s hard to imagine you’re arguing in good faith here.

 

[Three]

The business opportunity is windows being able to run games like PC.
It will just be another mini PC gaming device.

That's a benefit but it's not a business opportunity for the OS based purely on incompatibility.

And the benefits is that most games who don't support Linux will be able to run on those devices because of windows. That is huge incentives for handheld makers.

MS will reap the benefits from those companies.

It is a huge incentive for handheld makers and compatibility but there aren't a lot of handheld makers out there and they aren't selling a lot of devices meaning the incentive isn't there as a business for MS. The one that is somewhat successful but still relatively niche (steamdeck) is shipping with its own free open OS and using proton to get compatibility. So even for successful device sellers it seems they would rather not pay for that licence and gain compatibility another way.

What's would be even better though is if games started supporting other OS like steamOS natively which is what I'm asking for instead.

 

[Ozriel]

GFWL nightmares

Comparing an OS to a Storefront. Hmm

What's would be even better though is if games started supporting other OS like steamOS natively which is what I'm asking for instead.

There’s no real business case for this when Proton exists.

 

[Sleepwalker]

They really just need to make their windows store games compatible with linux on the deck natively, but obviously that won't happen.

 

[feynoob]

That's a benefit but it's not a business opportunity for the OS based purely on incompatibility.


It is a huge incentive for handheld makers and compatibility but there aren't a lot of handheld makers out there and they aren't selling a lot of devices meaning the incentive isn't there as a business for MS. The one that is somewhat successful but still relatively niche (steamdeck) is shipping with its own free open OS and using proton to get compatibility. So even for successful device sellers it seems they would rather not pay for that licence and gain compatibility another way.

What's would be even better though is if games started supporting other OS like steamOS natively which is what I'm asking for instead.

Your option is beneficial to steam, not MS.

Also windows has alot of launchers, that are not on steam deck.

PC handheld companies will be able to use alot PC launchers for their system.
This is a big in countries like Korea and China.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Imagine giving MS the benefit of the doubt when it comes to how they handle their own OS.

hilarious.

 

[64bitmodels]

This is a pointless derail. Are you having difficulties reading the thread title? Or understanding the OP?

i was literally making a point by saying that a product in a 'niche' market can still be outrageously successful, using a bit of irony. It's not related to the OP because we were discussing something else entirely- they brought up VR.

 

[Three]

Aside from the SteamDeck, pretty much every other handheld gaming PC runs Windows out of the box. Aya Neo, GPD Win, Asus’ upcoming ROG handheld etc. all Windows

how many have they sold though? The steamdeck is likely to be the most popular one. We have no clue how any of those are doing or will do.

Valve themselves are perfectly happy to push proton as the way to go, and most of Microsoft’s games work on SteamOS and Linux that way.

There’s no ask for an extensive rewrite of Windows for handheld gaming PCs. Most visible improvements would be in power management, enhanced suspend/resume and a big picture mode for games…among other things.

You’ve been moving goalposts, so it’s hard to imagine you’re arguing in good faith here.

I didn’t move any goalpost, wtf. Can you tell me what goalpost I moved?

I said licensing a PC handheld gaming OS to OEMs isn't a viable business and that MS are not commercially doing it. That this news is a personal hackathon project.

I just said that it's better if they concentrated on content support for the current OS to sell their content.

No goalposts have been moved. You've only said that this is absolutely something they should be doing and most PC handheld gaming devices will be windows and trying to argue about my so called strange position. I asked for proof of windows running on most handhelds because the steamdeck is probably the best selling one. You came back and listed some devices, some MS games running on steamOS and some other stuff about your personal usage and you're telling me I'm arguing in bad faith. This doesn't show a viable business.

 

[feynoob]

Imagine giving MS the benefit of the doubt when it comes to how they handle their own OS.

hilarious.

OS= okish.
Software=pure garbage.

Why don't they just give death mercy to windows store. That is the worst store that I have seen in my entire life.

This 3rd party store is much better than their garbage software.
https://en.softonic.com/windows

 

[reksveks]

They really just need to make their windows store games compatible with linux on the deck natively, but obviously that won't happen.

I think it does cause some issues that need to be accounted for.

I don't think some companies would be happy to sell you a product that you cant use in case of incompatibility as it does cause support issues. I think it's probably overblown.

But yeah, if the MS Store/Gaming Services could support Linux that would be great and it may be helpful for their xcloud if it does reduce energy usage.

 

[64bitmodels]

OS= okish.
Software=pure garbage.

this is the greatest summary of Windows i've ever seen in my entire life. Everyone gets Windows just so they can run all the other software that needs to run on it. No one (who isn't in a business) willingly uses Microsoft software solutions over anything else. Firefox over Edge, Steam over MS store, Everything over Windows Search, winamp over groove music, VLC over Windows Media Player, it's fucking funny and yet MS sees this as a problem and needs their own ecosystem even tho they were making bank off of just providing the base OS. This is one of the reasons why Windows is declining- no one buying Windows over Mac wants to be in a goddamned ecosystem.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

OS= okish.
Software=pure garbage.

Why don't they just give death mercy to windows store. That is the worst store that I have seen in my entire life.

This 3rd party store is much better than their garbage software.
https://en.softonic.com/windows

i couldn't live without One Note.

 

[Three]

Your option is beneficial to steam, not MS.

I think it would be beneficial to both. I think the benefit of releasing native versions for that content business outweighs not doing it to force an OS OEM sale on a very small market segment. Even in the massive mobile market MS make native apps for competing OS in place of pushing their own OS because it's the best thing to do for that content business.

Also windows has alot of launchers, that are not on steam deck.

PC handheld companies will be able to use alot PC launchers for their system.
This is a big in countries like Korea and China.

You're just listing benefits of current windows to customers over steamOS. You're not really showing the viability of investing in creating a handheld specific OS instead of releasing native supported games on what's out there. Those PC launchers might not even have handheld modes.

 

[feynoob]

You're just listing benefits of current windows to customers over steamOS. You're not really showing the viability of investing in creating a handheld specific OS instead of releasing native supported games on what's out there.

Isn't the point of handheld devices to play videogames?
Having these options will make their devices attractive.
Steam deck is steam. And it's not the only handheld device. Other companies can list other launchers on their system.

This is beyond steamdeck.

 

[Ozriel]

Imagine giving MS the benefit of the doubt when it comes to how they handle their own OS.

hilarious.

Thread is certainly delivering the absurd takes.

‘Benefit of the doubt’ for the world’s most popular consumer PC OS?

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Thread is certainly delivering the absurd takes.

‘Benefit of the doubt’ for the world’s most popular consumer PC OS?

its almost like there is not enough competition.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

MS keeps pissing off its power users.

Smart

 

[64bitmodels]

its almost like there is not enough competition.

there is competition but one of the compettitors locks their OS to an extremely expensive set of computers and forces you into an ecosystem and makes you spend more cash, it also has 0 gaming use at all
the other has basically been ignored and maligned by society (including you for some reason) because it was a bit hard to use back in the 2000s despite the major leaps in stability, ease of use and performance since then

Moreover than that more competitors than just 3 makes everything confusing and inconsistent for developers and users alike, i don't see what competition you're looking for that doesn't already exist

 

[SoloKingRobert]

MS should constantly be looking to optimise their OS for everything?
Any netbook, Q9200 whatever user might get a bit of extra performance of his "ancient" device and just because 64 cores + 128 perf cores force a system to run fast doesn't mean better more efficient code would not benefit them too.
Just because Valve made a point in supporting Linux, which finally makes Linux somewhat eligible for any PC, and that might make look Windows worse and with time even reduce market share, the 99% of non Linux users would appreciate MS looking for any fat too.

Who even uses a Mechanical Hard Drive these days to run an Operating System? Windows 11 is speedy with an SSD or an internal SSD card.

 

[Ozriel]

MS keeps pissing off its power users.

Man made an 8 minute video because MS hid advanced, rarely used printer settings in Windows 11 Home?

Hmm.

its almost like there is not enough competition.

Oh, there’s certainly competition. MacOS, Linux, ChromeOS…

Consumers choose what they want

 

[feynoob]

Oh, there’s certainly competition. MacOS, Linux, ChromeOS…

Consumers choose what they want

Consumers don't have a choice, because these companies have their flows which keeps consumers away.
Apple= expensive.
Google= for school.
Linux= nerds (needs skills).

 

[Crayon]

Oh, hey boss. Sorry to bug you.

You know all that tracking and extra promotional stuff you guys always want to put in? You're going to love this. I dumpstered all of it.

So uh, when can we ship?

 

[64bitmodels]

Linux= nerds (needs skills).

you really dont need to be a nerd

 

[64bitmodels]

Oh, hey boss. Sorry to bug you.

You know all that tracking and extra promotional stuff you guys always want to put in? You're going to love this. I dumpstered all of it.

So uh, when can we ship?

They can't ship
not because the boss disapproved, but because the sheer anger from hearing the bolded gave the boss a heart attack- they're dead now

 

[Crayon]

They can't ship
not because the boss disapproved, but because the sheer anger from hearing the bolded gave the boss a heart attack- they're dead now

Soooo... do we get to go home for the day?

 

[Three]

Isn't the point of handheld devices to play videogames?

Having these options will make their devices attractive.

Yes? Would it be attractive enough to sell millions? There is a difference between "this is a nice feature of a device in comparison" and "this will now sell millions of devices" .

GDP Win is a windows handheld, it has those launchers. Do you think a handheld OS that can launch those launchers would really shift that market? You're just listing benefits instead of talking about the impact a specific UX would have on these devices.

Having a handheld specific OS launching these launchers which might not even have a handheld/controller mode once you're in them isn’t going to change much. This isn't going to make these handhelds sell considerably more or outsell steamdeck.

Steam deck is steam. And it's not the only handheld device. Other companies can list other launchers on their system.

This is beyond steamdeck.

You can get other launchers on steamOS/linux btw. Check out Lutris which can act as a unified launcher for EGS, Uplay, GoG, etc. Beyond steamdeck what would be best is for the companies to drop OS dependencies.

 

[oldergamer]

MS keeps pissing off its power users.

Oh no, guy on youtube is acting pissed to get viewers? whatever will they do? Lets not fall for fake outrage.

 

[poodaddy]

The Asus ROG Ally is already confirmed to run Windows. I can't see Windows working remarkably well on a handheld, but if Microsoft can figure this out then it immediately makes the ROG Ally a very attractive little prospect.

 

[The Stig]

GFWL nightmares

 

[twilo99]

Smart

Right cuz I’m not touching that thing with Linux on board

 

[DemonGamerTTT]

This is really really good.

I still have hope for Linux tho.... But the truth is that only thing that would really make Linux viable is if it's community/developers stop being so fucking weird elitists and start to think as Linux as an end user operational system.

 

[TVexperto]

this is amazing.

when will it release? cant wait to get linux of my steam deck

 

[Three]

There’s no real business case for this when Proton exists.

Proton is great but “Ubisoft Connect has detected an unrecoverable error and must shut down.” isn't something people like to see when they come back to play their games and have to wait for an update.

You're right that the market is too small for them to care too but it's best for everyone that devs become aware of and start to drop their OS dependencies.

 

[Ozriel]

Proton is great but “Ubisoft Connect has detected an unrecoverable error and must shut down.” isn't something people like to see when they come back to play their games and have to wait for an update.

You're right that the market is too small for them to care too but it's best for everyone that devs become aware of and start to drop their OS dependencies.

You’re missing the point.
There’s no point making a Linux version as a dev if you can do the work to ensure your software runs well via Proton.

A significant portion of Steam games run perfectly on Linux via Proton, all with no native Linux versions. It’s a more efficient solution for all concerned.

You’re sharing a Ubisoft example where they just aren’t that interested in making their games Deck compatible.

 

[Three]

You’re missing the point.
There’s no point making a Linux version as a dev if you can do the work to ensure your software runs well via Proton.

A significant portion of Steam games run perfectly on Linux via Proton, all with no native Linux versions. It’s a more efficient solution for all concerned.

You’re sharing a Ubisoft example where they just aren’t that interested in making their games Deck compatible.

Devs don't target proton. Devs target windows, and Proton, a compatibility layer, gets them running on linux/steamOS. The ubisoft example shows they don't target proton and proton fixes incompatibility in a a cat and mouse chase. If Ubisoft did what you think happens it wouldn't occur. Ubisoft targeted windows, broke their games on lonux and proton had to push a fix into a beta version. If Ubisoft did a native version it wouldn't even be needed. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want that, well I kind of do but yeah.

 

[rodrigolfp]

There’s no real business case for this when Proton exists.

Proton still loses in performance and compatibility vs native.

 

[dyergram]

I hope they make it so it’s not a complete pain in the ass to install.

 

[IntentionalPun]

It's a hackathon project. Nothing commercial.

MS need to concentrate on making their games run better natively on the steamOS instead of trying to shoehorn windows on it. It has a lean purpose built OS already.

A hackathon project became the core of how Azure auto-scales VMs.

You are right to point out that it doesn't necessarily mean anything, but these hackathons are meant to produce something that might turn commercial.. that's kind of their point.

 

[EverydayBeast]

There’s no pressure on valve with the steam deck get the games right.

 

[Three]

A hackathon project became the core of how Azure auto-scales VMs.

You are right to point out that it doesn't necessarily mean anything, but these hackathons are meant to produce something that might turn commercial.. that's kind of their point.

Hackathons are great for experimenting and they can turn into products. just pointing out this isn't commercial currently, just a personal hackathon project.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Hackathons are great for experimenting and they can turn into products. just pointing out this isn't commercial currently, just a personal hackathon project.

I get what you are saying, but that is exactly how MS "Experiments" with things on a lot of their teams.

Employees regularly spend time in "hackathons" and also spend time outside of them, and present their work to their teams. The goal is to have the best things that come out of hackathons become part of products.

It's part of their workflow on many teams, it's a little more organized than just a "personal hackathon." It's also not always just 1 person, it's sometimes a team of people coming up with an idea.

 

[Topher]

Hackathons are great for experimenting and they can turn into products. just pointing out this isn't commercial currently, just a personal hackathon project.

If Microsoft is smart they will embrace this project before Valve releases its full Steam OS to the world and all these handheld companies start making Steam OS variants that cut out all revenue from Windows.

 

[decisions]

Nope. Bring on the unix-based future.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

MS couldn't optimize their way out of a paper bag.

Also Windows is what it is because it's backwards compatible with like 50 years of legacy software. That's why the entire world uses it, and also why optimizing it is all but impossible.

 

[Three]

I get what you are saying, but that is exactly how MS "Experiments" with things on a lot of their teams.

Employees regularly spend time in "hackathons" and also spend time outside of them, and present their work to their teams. The goal is to have the best things that come out of hackathons become part of products.

It's part of their workflow on many teams, it's a little more organized than just a "personal hackathon." It's also not always just 1 person, it's sometimes a team of people coming up with an idea.

I get all that, without googles "20% project" gmail wouldn't exist too. It's why they do it. But for every big product born from these, 30 are just projects that don't turn into anything.

The people involved in this particular project are listed under the project video. It isn't a big team but an individual it appears but that's not why I think it isn't a commercially viable project. I feel MS do not see an OS business here, they are more likely to make their own handheld than they are creating a handheld console OS business. Even for all those who game on PC on their TVs there isn't really a console OS product from MS. OEMs are more likely to just use the already available tablet mode.

I just fail to see the commercial viability of this hackathon project.

If Microsoft is smart they will embrace this project before Valve releases its full Steam OS to the world and all these handheld companies start making Steam OS variants that cut out all revenue from Windows.

SteamOS is already upon the world and so is proton. That cat is out of the bag

https://github.com/ValveSoftware/SteamOS
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton

It had even failed as Steambox years ago. The reason Steamdeck is popular is because it's handheld steam and valve so unless they can convince them to pay for a licence I don't think it will go anywhere. If they see asteamdeck as a threat they're more likely to launch an xbox handheld than to license a console OS.