xrnzaaas
Member
A lot of the things didn't have to happen the way they did. They could've made Abby a more feminine character so more people would identify with her and at least try to forgive her for what she's done.
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Neil Druckmann and Halley Gross Open Up About the Biggest Twists of ‘The Last of Us Part II’ **SPOILERS**
DanielMann861
Member
Do you think it's maybe time for Naughty Dog to start making Interactive Dramas (ala David Cage style games) over third person action games?
The thing that's been bugging me a lot about TLOU 2 is the gameplay loop. On the one hand, it pulls every trick in the book to make the player try and feel bad for the carnage they're inflicting. But on the other, it also pads itself with endless series of arena battles where you really sometimes don't have much of a choice but to kill dozens of people to pad out length. It feels completely contradictory to what the narrative aims to do and it brings up the age old Ludo narrative Dissonance topic.
Since Naughty Dog seems more and more focused on story over gameplay, is it maybe time for them to change their way of gameplay to tell the stories they want to tell more effectively? Or am I crazy? Because I feel that is one of the major failings of TLOU2. It really wants to have its cake and eat it too.
The thing that's been bugging me a lot about TLOU 2 is the gameplay loop. On the one hand, it pulls every trick in the book to make the player try and feel bad for the carnage they're inflicting. But on the other, it also pads itself with endless series of arena battles where you really sometimes don't have much of a choice but to kill dozens of people to pad out length. It feels completely contradictory to what the narrative aims to do and it brings up the age old Ludo narrative Dissonance topic.
Since Naughty Dog seems more and more focused on story over gameplay, is it maybe time for them to change their way of gameplay to tell the stories they want to tell more effectively? Or am I crazy? Because I feel that is one of the major failings of TLOU2. It really wants to have its cake and eat it too.
The_Mike
I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
Still. With how brutal the world is, rape is probably really high in a post apocalyptic world. What's she gonna do if she's one of the unlucky?
"no! You can't rape me you faggot I'm a guy with a pussy!"
In a post apocalyptic world no one would give a shit.
INC
Member
That's not the plot and story thread tho, that's got nothing to do with why she did it, and what she identified as, thats not how the story was told
You're assuming a story thread that doesn't exist, and was never brought up.
I could say the same for abbie, she beefed up so men would never dominate her, and rape her...........is that ever said? No, that's just a massive assumption.
Making assumptions for the story here, in my eyes is just excuses for adult themes, being dealt with in a child like way
'Gamers wint understand the white knighting, so we best spell it out to them'
That's just poor writing/directing on Neil's parts tbh
Arun1910
Member
How is it disrespectful? Ellies death would have been for the greater good. Joel, as Ellie states, had no right to take that away from the world.
You're acting like Joel was in the right, he wasn't. It wasn't his call. He was paid to do a job, deliver Ellie.
Werewolf Jones
Gold Member
In the game she is a Seraphite and you're assigned roles in the clan. She was to become a baby factory and she rejected it wanting to become a warrior instead. So she cut her hair off and was immediately exiled and hunted for it. Not that hard to understand. She identifies as a boy but she ain't taking HRT. It's like Oscar in Rose of Versailles but on the next level.
INC
Member
Because Joel just shot her father.
Abbie got a posse to watch whilst she tortured him, in front of Ellie
Disproportionate, if she had just shot him, maybe she would be more relatable and we could feel empathy for her
Joshmyersbv
Member
I find it hard to be sympathetic towards a character who beat one of my favorite characters in the medium with a golf club. All because she is the kid of some NPC nobody cared about. When you beat the first one were you thinking "wow I really feel sorry for that doctor"?
Ellie still pissed about not getting her head gutted by a bunch of LPN assistants is stupid. She tells Joel " My life would have fucking meant something." Joel should have countered with "well according to your diary you wouldn't get to fuck all these girls you think are hot."
I wonder if Ellie had that same mindset when she was smoking weed in a basement and scissoring Dina.
Ellie still pissed about not getting her head gutted by a bunch of LPN assistants is stupid. She tells Joel " My life would have fucking meant something." Joel should have countered with "well according to your diary you wouldn't get to fuck all these girls you think are hot."
I wonder if Ellie had that same mindset when she was smoking weed in a basement and scissoring Dina.
Bartski
Gold Member
As a huge fan of the first game, I love Joel as a character and after beating part 2 the only thing I regret ND hasn't done in 2 is make the skull bashing scene interactive.
I'm sure if any of you had the opportunity to actually play through the story unspoiled your opinion would be largely different.
It's a fundamental misconception to suggest people who made a river of money flow for ND since Uncharted don't know what they're doing, and even more so - to think you can't have it both ways.
Giving player choice is absolutely NOT a requirement for such storytelling to work. Ellie is a traumatized, irrational character and the game requires you to play her role. You don't need to internalize motivation at the onset when you're driven by curiosity which is obviously completely diminished for anyone who already knows the outcome. It's that kind of game and it totally works.
It makes you hate Abby and when you finally take control - you know that this is the kind of ride you're on, her ruthless actions from the prologue gain context, get juxtaposed with her character and at that point, knowing what brought her to Jackson, you just want to know her side of the story.
I have killed every single enemy on my path leading there as Ellie and seeing WLF from the inside as Abby made me really feel horrible about it. There is a scene where you come across a large dog kennel, every dog is distinct, everyone has a name and you realize these are the dogs you have slaughtered. The same goes for the girl with the Vita. It sounds way cheaper "on paper" than how it lands when when you eventually get there in the game. No other game does that to the player which is why it is so unique.
I do have issues with the plot and I do agree it wouldn't hurt the experience if Abby looked more feminine. But calling the writing "nonsensical and absolutely retarded" is pure BS vitriol if I ever see one.
You learn about her path of revenge being just as valid as Ellies and even though I think there could have been more interesting ways for her to find redemption - what happens after she meets Lev works just fine.
Ellie's redemption for all the carnage she has caused to find her is letting her go and IMO is a way more satisfying conclusion of this story than making her drown.
I'm sure if any of you had the opportunity to actually play through the story unspoiled your opinion would be largely different.
It's a fundamental misconception to suggest people who made a river of money flow for ND since Uncharted don't know what they're doing, and even more so - to think you can't have it both ways.
Giving player choice is absolutely NOT a requirement for such storytelling to work. Ellie is a traumatized, irrational character and the game requires you to play her role. You don't need to internalize motivation at the onset when you're driven by curiosity which is obviously completely diminished for anyone who already knows the outcome. It's that kind of game and it totally works.
It makes you hate Abby and when you finally take control - you know that this is the kind of ride you're on, her ruthless actions from the prologue gain context, get juxtaposed with her character and at that point, knowing what brought her to Jackson, you just want to know her side of the story.
I have killed every single enemy on my path leading there as Ellie and seeing WLF from the inside as Abby made me really feel horrible about it. There is a scene where you come across a large dog kennel, every dog is distinct, everyone has a name and you realize these are the dogs you have slaughtered. The same goes for the girl with the Vita. It sounds way cheaper "on paper" than how it lands when when you eventually get there in the game. No other game does that to the player which is why it is so unique.
I do have issues with the plot and I do agree it wouldn't hurt the experience if Abby looked more feminine. But calling the writing "nonsensical and absolutely retarded" is pure BS vitriol if I ever see one.
You learn about her path of revenge being just as valid as Ellies and even though I think there could have been more interesting ways for her to find redemption - what happens after she meets Lev works just fine.
Ellie's redemption for all the carnage she has caused to find her is letting her go and IMO is a way more satisfying conclusion of this story than making her drown.
INC
Member
The joel ellie dynamic is what subtle writing looks like to me, and what worked, ellie being young, didnt realise that to joel, ellie did mean something, ellie gave him a reason to keep living, ellie was Joel's world
Ellie doesnt have that, until he dies, and she finally understood Joel's reasons. That's subtext and decent writing
So to go from that to abbies arc, is just mind boggling how bad it is
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Whitecrow
Banned
Hahahaha like if any human in the world is capable on handling the lose of her daughter TWICE.
Joel was not on the right, but he did what everyone would have done, hence the story making sense.
INC
Member
Plus he already failed his real daughter, ellie was his redemption, the world be damned, because a parent would do anything to protect there child
Joel didnt give her a choice sure, but nor did the fireflys
The doctor even had that conversation with abbie and he never said he would sacrifice Abbie, so he would of done the same as joel
Again why Joel's death is disproportionate to abbies way of killing him
Raonak
Banned
And Abby was not in the right,
but she did what Ellie was trying to do.
Kill the person who killed her father.
Except Ellie realised that killing her would accomplish nothing.
She wouldn't get Joel back.
She would still be haunted.
Still be scarred.
Ultimately Ellie spared Abby because she didn't want to lose the last thing she had left... her humanity.
Imo. Ellie killing Abby would be even more dark and depressing than what we got.
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Werewolf Jones
Gold Member
How the FUCK can you be "biologically trans"? You can't naturally shift. It's self identification.
MagnesG
Banned
I mean if he had both sex organs at the start.
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Raonak
Banned
He was a girl named Lilly. Now identifies as a boy named Lev.
Broke the rules of his crazy cult and got hunted for it.
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Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
This is where I don't understand why I am supposed to feel for abby. Joel was not given a choice. They were going to kill Ellie. It was very clear they were not going to stop and you see that again in TLOU II that they had made their decision for Ellie and Joel. What was Joel supposed to do? His hand was forced to save Ellie. You can argue that he didn't have to make the choice and could have let them proceed and maybe that was the "right" choice, but its very clear if that was not his decision he was going to have to kill to get her out.
Abby was not forced by anything but revenge and even still, her father was going to commit murder as well even if it was for the greater good.
Her motivations are much more shallow than Joel's. Commit murder in such brutal fashion after this person also helped you out of a bad situation again makes her character just look like a completely bad person. Especially after you play as her and see she murders everyone, has zero remorse for the pain she caused by killing Joel, and is sleeping with an ex that has a child on the way. Because she goes back for two Scars I am supposed to suddenly feel for this character?
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INC
Member
That's called a Hermaphrodite, nothing to do with trans
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
BUt it would of made a lot more sense as she could actually see that killing/achieving revenge had gotten her nothing. You expect me to believe she figured this out after leaving behind her significant other and child? If she understood Joel now and understands why he did he did to save her as the game wants you to believe she now understands, she never would have left to find Abby again.
CheshirexChrono
Neo Member
To be fair what Joel actually did was slit her father's throat and by doing so ruining the only chance that humanity had at finding a cure. So really when you think about it every infection from that point on in the eyes of those who know could be seen as Joel's fault. Yes he did it for justified reasons to us the player but to someone in that fictional universe he did nothing but doom humanity for selfish reasons. I too would want to work him over for that if I were them.
Bartski
Gold Member
What are you talking about? She's there to avenge her father who in her eyes was not only innocent but the last remaining hope for humanity for a vaccine. She's there with her mates who are former fireflies, the group that Joel had rampaged through in the hospital. They all know the girl he pulled out of there was immune, could save the world, and they're after the guy that made everyone lose their chance. They all want him dead, she wants him to suffer. She gets what she wants, to no relief. It is the conclusion to her quest for revenge, one without a trail of blood that Ellie leaves behind.
I have to agree that the game would benefit from leaving banging the ex part on the cutting room floor.
CheshirexChrono
Neo Member
Please don't get me wrong, I've not said that she was a good person. It is well illustrated that she isn't, even she knows that. I think because she isn't is why the ending and how she ends up for me at least was almost too sad to handle, here is this woman who was a bonafide killer who was remorseless, reduced to almost nothing, a shell right when she thought she would get what she wants.
I'm just saying her motivation and reasoning is easy to understand and empathise with. Yes the method was brutal but Joel basically cost humanity it's last chance and killed her father who she loved and the man who was going to make a cure for the infection. Anger is going to factor in here.
She became a monster, she wasn't always one. I like that we had development of a villain, it's a nice change of pace. She had a sense of depth which was pleasant and appreciated.
Saber
Gold Member
Only an idiot wouldn't notice by now that Neil wanted desperadly sell Abby to the player.
Yes. The game make totally sure he is, by pushing his story right infront of you.
Lev is trans?
Yes. The game make totally sure he is, by pushing his story right infront of you.
Guilty_AI
Member
You.... i like you.
Especially that pregnant girl, shes such a bitch. Acting all innocent and good in "i really don't like violence!" ways and yet was completely on board with torturing joel and even killing the 'loose ends'. Also, whats up with her going out in combat that far into pregnancy? Is the baby supposed to take bullets for her? Its like she completely doesn't care about suffering a miscarriage.
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Mr Moose
Member
Lev is trans?
They wanted to marry her off to some old dude but she wanted to fight, so she shaved her hair off and told them to suck it.
martino
Member
i would more make an analogy with SW7 "problems" for near half the game.
For part 3 , they will hunt her , they will try to get her to produce vaccine. if Firefly still exists and Abby gives the info , how can it be otherwise ?
And i don't see Abby's personality/ morale to shut up about it.
For part 3 , they will hunt her , they will try to get her to produce vaccine. if Firefly still exists and Abby gives the info , how can it be otherwise ?
And i don't see Abby's personality/ morale to shut up about it.
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Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
They all know she "could" have saved the world. its pretty clear they were not sure it would even work but they wanted to try as she was the only possibility of a cure.
Thats a very big difference. Even her father showed remorse in that he was taking a life and its shown that if it was his daughter he would have thought about it twice as well. Yet Abby shows absolutely zero remorse. If you want me to believe this character has any ounce of good in her you don't kill Joel in the fashion that you did. I am not saying this isn't good motivation, what I am saying is that for me to care about her motivaton as a character needs to resonate and it doesnt in any fashion for me. (and many others) If you are going to kill Joel thats one thing, but for me to be comfortable and understand the death from a character you want me to sympahtize with, you have to do a much better job at making me like the character.
Her journey from murderer to caregiver for Lev isn't one filled with redemption in any capacity. It makes her revenge seem one note and basic. The pandering to the player when you start playing as Abby doesn't help either. They force you to play with the dog so I feel bad about killing the dog. The dog isn't Abby. The game is tiring so hard to make you feel bad when playing as Ellie and then wants you to feel for Abby becasuse they don't force you to do bad things with her in the context of the story but you go about murdering everyone in site.
There seems to be a huge disconnect between what the game wants you to do and how its trying to portray the character of Abby. Maybe it needed more time, maybe it needed better writing, who knows, but the story thats told about her is not one that by the end I thought she should get away with Murder.
Joshmyersbv
Member
What they should have done is had you play as Abby when she was young from the start of the game. You could get to know her dad and see the kind of guy he is. Like they did with Joel is the first one.
Of course the idea would be that you wouldnt know that Abby's dad was the doctor Joel killed.
Of course the idea would be that you wouldnt know that Abby's dad was the doctor Joel killed.
ZywyPL
Banned
It means people are born with male brain inside a female body, or vice versa. Such young, few year old kids can already tell they will want to be a boy/gir in the future.
INC
Member
She didnt even says anything whilst killing him, maybe if she was crying and screaming "you took everything I loved In this world" so it was rage and emotion that drove her to that action, maybe u could sympathise with her a little, but she was cold. So how can we the players relate to that.
I can relate to rage, and rage taking over rational thought. But there was none of that, so I cant relate, therefore playing as her didnt leave lasting impression
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
I have rewatched the scene and I think theres "some" give on my opinion that Joel had no idea what was going on. I dont think theres anyway to deduce that Abby was the doctors daughter but he at least knew they were former fireflies.
luffie
Member
It's true, they made Joel and Ellie's relationship such a big part of the game. That you can understand why Ellie and even Tommy would go so far for revenge (as Ellie said he would be halfway across Seattle day one)
I get that ND made us play as Abby to see from her perspective, to feel that what she did was justified. Even though I can list a bunch of reason that it's not, but I won't do it here.
Now let's just assume you empathize with Abby after her backstory, but so what? Ellie doesn't get to play as Abby, Ellie don't see it from Abby's perspective.
And it's been hammered so many times into us that Ellie couldn't let Joel go that she even has ptsd from that, leaving her precious new family to resolve it.
Then she finally arrives at Abby, she was ready to leave again, and Ellie's ptsd came back, and she decides she must kill Abby, but at the last moment she didn't??!! That is a big FU to all the players, and to the character. It's not good writing at all.
Anyone who complains about Abby's masculinity or sex scene and other sjw stuffs is a wanker, in the grander scheme of things, it's all minor and irrelevant. And anyone who thinks the writing is superb and logical is also a wanker.
Raonak
Banned
That's because she only understood it at the end. Seeing Abby, who got her revenge, as a decrepid and broken individual in the same way she is. By killing Abby she was only killing herself.
Had Abby been healthy and wanting to fight her she probably would have killed her.
deriks
4-Time GIF/Meme God
"the most ambitious story in modern video game history"
is just a fine story
Is very tiresome to see some people claiming that this is the biggest shit ever
A trans person? Meh. Gay couple? Meh. "she will be really happy to have you"? Meh. Girl that lost everything, wanted revenge, then won't do it at the last minute? Super meh.
is just a fine story
Is very tiresome to see some people claiming that this is the biggest shit ever
A trans person? Meh. Gay couple? Meh. "she will be really happy to have you"? Meh. Girl that lost everything, wanted revenge, then won't do it at the last minute? Super meh.
Raonak
Banned
The whole point of the game is about perspectives.
There's no right or wrong. Just people doing things that they believe is right.
As Joel said, he would save Ellie all over again. Because to him, it's the right thing to do.
The doctor would sacrifice Ellie for a vaccine, because to him it's the right thing to do.
To me, this game strengthens the ambiguity of the first game.
Shin
Banned
Here, people can reminiscent about the game and decide themselves whether ND lived up to your expectation or butchered their own IP.
Time stamp and all, reading some comments here and looking up the material to match, the characters are intentionally butt ugly or what the fuck?
What the hell is with Abby's face, build or the long ass nose girl - they made uglier than necessary for a reason or what's up with that because it stands out.
Time stamp and all, reading some comments here and looking up the material to match, the characters are intentionally butt ugly or what the fuck?
What the hell is with Abby's face, build or the long ass nose girl - they made uglier than necessary for a reason or what's up with that because it stands out.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Will have to agree to disagree but I can see it from your point of view. I just don't buy it that she figured that out as she was about to kill her. ND wants us to believe that these are real people and characters and that outcome doesn't make sense to me.
The revenge story line is extremely hard to make unique and tell well. Her not getting revenge after leaving everything else behind that she got after her life being spared not because of Abby(which is another huge thing I have trouble with liking Abby as she was about to murder a pregnant woman and was actually more willing to after finding out she was with child) just doesn't fit with the narrative being told. Even though Abby was beaten down, she was still in the eyes of Ellie someone who had taken everything from her and becasuse she was trying to care for someone else(who she threatened to kill in cold blood herself) doesn't mean she should be spared. Its just hard to believe in the context of the story.
But I appreciate your take.
I actually agree with this quite a bit. This game made me appreciate the first games story a lot more but I still think TLOU II a mess in many ways compared.
Edited for context.
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Roni
Gold Member
It's the point of the entire story. If you don't overcome the desire for revenge, you just contribute to the cycle of violence it produces.
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Saber
Gold Member
Until you put your love one in the line of sacrifice. But of course people forget that part.
If I was a doctor and the daughter wasn't mine of course I would sacrifice Lol
Right or wrong is just another dumb excuse.
Jon Neu
Banned
That ending is nonsensical and retarded. Like most of the plot and the writting, which is filled with incoherences and fails to convey what it wants to convey. Sorry if you think that’s vitriol, still are facts.
There is no redemption, Ellie becomes a despicable ruthless psychopath. But that’s not the worst part despite the cheap efforts of Cuckmann for making us shift our alleged sympathies from Ellie to female Hodor. No, the worst part is that she is also an ungrateful entitled little bitch who can’t stop bitching about the man who saved her life. The only person who truly loved her and gave her the opportunity to actually have a life.
In their stupid quest of trying to make Joel look bad and wrong, what they actually achieve is to make Ellie be tremendously unlikable. And the game is already filled with so many unlikable and punchable in the face characters.
The only good one, the only character who fills the screen everytime he is on, the only character capable of making us feel emotions that are not disgust or apathy, is the one they killed at the beginning.
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INC
Member
I shocked we didn't get to play as tommy, theres a whole section with him in abbies story.
Could of had 3 inter connected stories, that would of been clever writing and story telling. And the pace of the game would of been great, instead the last we see of tommy is him with no wife, and walking away like a bitch, chased by Dina telling him to basically fuck off
And for what? Ellie goes anyway
Could of had 3 inter connected stories, that would of been clever writing and story telling. And the pace of the game would of been great, instead the last we see of tommy is him with no wife, and walking away like a bitch, chased by Dina telling him to basically fuck off
And for what? Ellie goes anyway
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Roni
Gold Member
Just breathe, man... Just breathe.
Arun1910
Member
I don't disagree with this at all and never said the story made no sense but okay.
Jon Neu
Banned
Hey Cuckmann.
Whitecrow
Banned
Yeah, that's right. She may even had spare her life just to not be like Joel and not do the same thing she blames Joel for.
It's a good decision on its own, but in the context of everything you went through in the game, I find it very disappointing.
I mean, Ellie kills countless persons, but then the only that mattered, gets to live... hate that, honestly.
I'm not saying Joel should not be dead, I'm only complaining they way it happens.
Look, it would be so easy to make a game about Joels redemption, trying to compensate for that, having another journey with Ellie, then he sacrifices himself to save Ellie, and now Elli is lost, and looks how to live her life.
Boom. Joel dead. Ellie being on an emotional journey.
But no, we got an oversteroided Abby, with a trans friend (bc of course it was needed) that kills a beloved character like if nobody cared about him, and you are forced to play with her.
Imagine Batman dying because trips over the stairs and breaks his neck. That's what happens with Joel.
Sorry. All this TLOU drama has me more sensitive than normal. I may got wrong the tone of your comment. Sorry for that.
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Hell no. Agree with the story or not this is actually the best playing ND game yet.
ZehDon
Gold Member
Flip this and it’s also true: how many people crowing “masterpiece” readily accepted Abby because they already knew she killed Joel weeks prior thanks to the leaks, and were ready to play as Abby before the game started? You could easily say “The leaks might be the best thing to ever happen to this game.“
Is it true?
We’ll never know - so maybe attempting to invalidate the opinions of others based on hypotheticals isn’t really helpful.
Read the room: a lot of people straight up don’t like the narrative and characters this time around. And a lot do. Unless you think ND is incapable of making anything less than perfection, it’s all valid.