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NYT: Democrats: ‘Our Brand Is Worse Than Trump’

bionic77

Member
Its insane to me how badly democrats constantly lose.
If Americans wants to be racist and backwards what can they do?

To me this says more about America (or at least large part of it)than the Democratic party.

The country is so divided and if we can't get them to agree on civil rights and science how can we come to any consensus and what does it mean if they ultimately win?
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
We gained House seats in 2016. Doesn't comport well with your "slow wipe out" narrative.

If you think my take is delusional a good place to start would be identifying where it's wrong.

This. I think Obama being in the white house caused a lot of people to forget how badly we got routed in 2010 and thereafter
 

Maxim726X

Member
How has she failed at her job as house rep? Serious question, on what issue has she failed to bring the house together against policy the party doesn't agree on? Because that's her job, not helping every single rep win an election.

She is one of the faces of the Democratic party. Republicans just spent millions of dollars trying her to Ossoff, and it appears to have worked, at least in part. The party needs a refresh and she is not a part of the solution.

It's not about her, politically, it's about her image and what she represents- The old guard. Optics do matter and hers suck right now. All she's provided in the way of messaging is 'Trump is the worst, right guys??' which clearly isn't a winning strategy.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Also Pelosi was the one who wrangled the ACA through with a public option before it later got killed, in case anyone didn't already know
 
If Americans wants to be racist and backwards what can they do?

To me this says more about America (or at least large part of it)than the Democratic party.

The country is so divided and if we can't get them to agree on civil rights and science how can we come to any consensus and what does it mean if they ultimately win?

Pretty much. No matter who wins the core is still rotten and will never be resolved amicably.
 
I bet this forum's ideal Democratic leader will be someone white. And relatively young. And "cool" and able to relate to people.

Some of us in this thread are black. Some of us are gay (hi!). A few of us might be women.
But this forum largely skews young, white, male, and heterosexual. Surprise that this demographic, many of whom haven't acknowledged their subliminal biases, would want someone to whom they can easily relate. But people in general struggle to recognize their biases and flaws, so this discussion will likely go nowhere productive.
 
She is one of the faces of the Democratic party. Republicans just spent millions of dollars trying her to Ossoff, and it appears to have worked, at least in part. The party needs a refresh and she is not a part of the solution.

It's not about her, politically, it's about her image and what she represents- The old guard. Optics do matter and hers suck right now. All she's provided in the way of messaging is 'Trump is the worst, right guys??' which clearly isn't a winning strategy.

Okay, then the republicans will tie people to whoever replaces her and drag his name through the mud and slander them just as much.

The GOP's strategy is based on this, it doesn't matter who the house rep is. "socialist" "will raise taxes" "pedophile" the list goes on, anything to win, anything to break down the donkeys side.
 
I bet this forum's ideal Democratic leader will be someone white. And relatively young. And "cool" and able to relate to people.

Some of us in this thread are black. Some of us are gay (hi!). A few of us might be women.
But this forum largely skews young, white, male, and heterosexual. Surprise that this demographic, many of whom haven't acknowledged their subliminal biases, would want someone to whom they can easily relate. But people in general struggle to recognize their biases and flaws, so this discussion will likely go nowhere productive.

Well neither does sweeping assumptions. Deadlocked all the way.
 

Maxim726X

Member
I mean, you're the one who said you have to be a special politician to not have a shelf life.

Is there a reason why old men like Biden, Bernie, etc aren't seen the same way as old women like Pelosi and Hillary? Other than their gender.

Hillary's gender is part of her problem, but are we really going to pretend that she doesn't have a problem connecting with voters? That she doesn't appear untrustworthy?

I personally thought (and still think) she would have been a great president and I'm proud to have given her my vote. But she has an image problem, and it's not just because she's a woman.

And Sanders just ignited a revolution within his party, is that a serious question?

Okay, then the republicans will tie people to whoever replaces her and drag his name through the mud and slander them just as much.

The GOP's strategy is based on this, it doesn't matter who the house rep is. "socialist" "will raise taxes" "pedophile" the list goes on, anything to win, anything to break down the donkeys side.

Sure they will. But it won't stick as effectively with newcomers.

They've been hurling shit at Pelosi for *years* now, and just like Benjamin Ghazi and HRC, the longer and harder you hit something the more it sticks.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
She is one of the faces of the Democratic party. Republicans just spent millions of dollars trying her to Ossoff, and it appears to have worked, at least in part. The party needs a refresh and she is not a part of the solution.

It's not about her, politically, it's about her image and what she represents- The old guard. Optics do matter and hers suck right now. All she's provided in the way of messaging is 'Trump is the worst, right guys??' which clearly isn't a winning strategy.

The republicans tied Ossoff to Bernie Sanders as well.

They will use any prominent person on the left and their base will always eat it up.
 

kirblar

Member
The idea is integrating minority benefits into massive social programs that recover the non-corporate class. Poor white family X doesn't have time to care about social equalization when their health insurance premiums are going up every year for every person in their family, and their deductible is being raised for every person in the family too, and then they seemingly have to switch around insurance companies because companies aren't interested in insuring independent families on the same basis as those involved in large corporate institutions.


Without some sort of pendulum swing back towards re empowering individuals vs corporate entities, we won't have any political capital to go back and improve upon social injustices.


Topic Switch:
No one should care about the special election loss. However, it's a loss to Democrats and Republicans alike for how much money was wasted in Georgia.
This won't work because they don't care about minorities and won't vote on economics, they care about being protected form all those scary gay, black, and muslim people they show on Fox News!
 
So what I'm hearing from all of you debating me on this is that Hillary was a shitty candidate.

It is more about bad strategies because it is that something some Bernie Sanders supporters, some centrists, and others( like you) believe will work. Depress your own base and the only people left is GOP-leanrs, independents, and swing voters who would likely be conservative economically.
 
Haha good lord.

Okay. That's exactly what I was saying?

How about this for a novel concept: Pelosi is failing at her job, and members of the party are questioning her fitness for the position. It may *gasp* have nothing to do with the fact that she's a woman.

How is she failing at her job?

None of the shit people are blaming her for has anything to do with her job.
 

friday

Member
The democrats need a broader message, and focusing on the economics of the middle class is a great way to do it. Better paying jobs and better health care would be great.

That said, I think people are taking this loss a little too hard. This part of Atlanta is super conservative. It's really not that surprising that Ossof lost. Honestly they spent way too much money on a long shot.
 
I'd imagine if we ever have another gay president (who is openly so instead) that this forum would argue on end about how it would be better to run someone straight so we'd have more chance to win.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
The Democrats have been terrible at having a cohesive platform to sell to people for awhile.

You have to play to win. Promise large middle-class tax reform with a corrected progressive tax system. Be able to tell people you're putting money in their pocket. Have a better plan on health care than Medicare for all that Bernie spouts, Medicare is already been poisoned by the right as a word, use something new.

Drop gun control as an issue, you're not winning it. It costs you votes.

You can't and shouldn't drop women's abortion rights, but you CAN drop the gun one. You aren't going to get real gun control fixed anytime soon, so just stop. It kills you.

Have a real jobs plan, large infrastructure projects, debt forgiveness, offer up first time homer buyer plans. Create small farm subsidies to help out rural Americans.

Have a discussion about entitlement reform, put the issue out that and see what we can do to make our safety nets better and more clear to the public about what is and isn't being done.

Drop corporate tax rates, and force American companies to bring their money back to the USA. A large progressive tax plan would also curtail CEO pay.

Talk about real immigration reform, and rework the work visa program and make it more transparent.

There's so much that can be done.
 

Toxi

Banned
She is one of the faces of the Democratic party. Republicans just spent millions of dollars trying her to Ossoff, and it appears to have worked, at least in part. The party needs a refresh and she is not a part of the solution.

It's not about her, politically, it's about her image and what she represents- The old guard. Optics do matter and hers suck right now. All she's provided in the way of messaging is 'Trump is the worst, right guys??' which clearly isn't a winning strategy.

Your argument is that the Democrats should ditch Nancy Pelosi as House Minority leader because she has a poor image and the Republicans are tying that to Democratic candidates.

But you're also saying the Democrats shouldn't tie Donald Trump's very poor image to Republican candidates because it's a losing strategy.
 

Maxim726X

Member
How is she failing at her job?

None of the shit people are blaming her for has anything to do with her job.

She is one of the defacto leaders of the party now. That is a part of her job description.

Your argument is that the Democrats should ditch Nancy Pelosi as House Minority leader because she has a poor image and the Republicans are tying that to Democratic candidates.

But you're also saying the Democrats shouldn't tie Donald Trump's poor image to Republican candidates because it's a losing strategy.

Not at all, they certainly shouldn't abandon it. But there should be some substance thrown in occasionally. I'm not seeing much.
 

Gutek

Member
The Democrats have been terrible at having a cohesive platform to sell to people for awhile.

You have to play to win. Promise large middle-class tax reform with a corrected progressive tax system. Be able to tell people you're putting money in their pocket. Have a better plan on health care than Medicare for all that Bernie spouts, Medicare is already been poisoned by the right as a word, use something new.

Drop gun control as an issue, you're not winning it. It costs you votes.
You can't and shouldn't drop women's abortion rights, but you CAN drop the gun one. You aren't going to get real gun control fixed anytime soon, so just stop. It kills you.

Have a real jobs plan, large infrastructure projects, debt forgiveness, offer up first time homer buyer plans. Create small farm subsidies to help out rural Americans.

Have a discussion about entitlement reform, put the issue out that and see what we can do to make our safety nets better and more clear to the public about what is and isn't being done.

Drop corporate tax rates, and force American companies to bring their money back to the USA. A large progressive tax plan would also curtail CEO pay.

Talk about real immigration reform, and rework the work visa program and make it more transparent.

There's so much that can be done.

Majority of Americans are pro stricter gun laws/background checks.
 

megalowho

Member
"Let's give up things that democrats like in order to make democrats more palatable to republicans, like civil rights and open support for minorities and women." ~the thread
The republican party offers nothing for any voter that remotely cares about social justice. Knowing that, there are angles that I think would be very effective in local and national campaigns. Demonizing the for profit prison industry, the militarization of the police force and championing voting accessibility are meaningful pillars that speak to root issues without making it about moral superiority or a guilt trip, especially with Sessions as a clear villain to rail against. But platitudes of inclusiveness that serve no actual policy other than making supporters feel good about themselves? That's not good strategy for a central platform, and it doesn't bring those on the sidelines out to the polls.
 

Barzul

Member
She is one of the faces of the Democratic party. Republicans just spent millions of dollars trying her to Ossoff, and it appears to have worked, at least in part. The party needs a refresh and she is not a part of the solution.

It's not about her, politically, it's about her image and what she represents- The old guard. Optics do matter and hers suck right now. All she's provided in the way of messaging is 'Trump is the worst, right guys??' which clearly isn't a winning strategy.

It isn't Pelosi's job to get House reps elected. That's the job of the DNC and DCCC. Paul Ryan isn't well liked in NYC. Should the GOP suddenly shitcan him? If anything Pelosi is exactly the kind of House Leader you need when you're the minority party. She is great at keeping the representatives united in their opposition.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
Yes, I, a gay man, can enjoy my increased income before my bumfuck Oklahoma boss fires me for being a nasty homosexual. Truly I have benefited from an exclusive focus on economics.

The party should not focus on the civil rights issues hampering you is what I keep hearing these turncoats say.

Fuck anyone that promotes the dismissal of "identity politics" (read: civil fucking rights) and expects the underprivileged to still turn out to vote for them.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
The republicans tied Ossoff to Bernie Sanders as well.

They will use any prominent person on the left and their base will always eat it up.

Yeah I never get why people don't realize this. Jesus Christ could rise from the dead and run for President for the Democrats and the GOP would smear the fuck out of him and their base would eat it up.
 

Gutek

Member
The party should not focus on the civil rights issues hampering you is what I keep hearing these turncoats say.

Fuck anyone that promotes the dismissal of "identity politics" (read: civil fucking rights) and expects the underprivileged to still turn out to vote for them.

They didn't turn out to vote in 2016. We can't count on them.
 

grumble

Member
Breathe.

Turning a R+20 district into a R+5, the ine that gave us Gingrich, is good.

What's not good is they need to figure out how to do that that over 1000's of races consecutive years. When funding isn't as abundant.

That isn't amazing. The country hates Trump, it doesn't like Democrats. If trump leaves it'll go back to +20. The democrats have shrunk their tent to urban social liberals. It won't win the country.
 
I forgot that being pro abortion was a winning strategy for Democrats.
I don't know if there are many pro abortion people out there.

More like pro choice and a decision up to the mother, doctor, and maybe family.

Tons of pro birth people, though. Those babies can get fucked once they're out of the birth canal.
 
This article (and this thread) are way off base here. These special elections are happening because appointees were chosen from districts that were thought to be safe red.

NONE of those districts are safe anymore. The Republican still won, but with much slimmer margins than expected. It was always a longshot to upend a 20 point advantage overnight. If you don't quite get there but you get close, that's a GOOD sign, not a bad one.

And when you translate that to the rest of the races in the country - the ones that were already more competitive to begin with - , you get a blue wave in 2018.

People need to take a minute to think things through. I know it hurts to lose, but don't go flying off the handle about it. The Democrats' messaging is working. It's resonating with people, even in places like Georgia, Montana, and South Carolina.
Indeed. Well said. Unfortunately, people don't give a fuck, and just like how they reacted when they found out Trump won the election, people are ignoring any and all of this as an excuse to shit on social issues/identity politics and trying to toss them to the curb once again. Funny how that works, and they're so convinced based on fuck all that single payer specifically (not just universal health care or a public option, but it has to be single payer specifically and nothing less) is a winning issue for everyone, but stuff like abortion/LGBT rights/Black Lives Matter? Yeah, that all has to get tossed, right at the first fucking chance they see to get rid of it and toss it to the curb for their pet issues instead. Transparent as all get out.

My rights are not some fucking debate or just a pet issue to be tossed to a curb. You treat me like trash, like my vote is just something you can take for granted? Then you can kiss is good bye and this country can burn to the ground. I am not some fucking toy, and telling me that my rights are too risky for you to actually campaign on, but despite that to just "trust you" that you'll get around to protecting them, eventually, anyway is suspect as hell. If you're going to make legislation to protect it, people will notice. You can't just hide that. People will react. And if that ain't a problem, then neither is campaigning on it. Doing otherwise is just cowardice and historically a huge red flag that nothing at all will get done. We've been there before. We know how that fucking song and dance works. And we ain't going back, or you can treat our votes good bye.

Like, I care about stuff like universal health care. I care about bringing health care and pharmaceutical costs down. I care about ideas like UBI and lowering the cost and increasing the access to post-secondary education. I care about ending the drug war. But I also recognize that the Democratic Party is a big-tent party and represents people beyond myself and to keep that up it has to appeal to their interests and needs as well, as it should. Like, I'm not a woman. But I realize how important have access to not only reproductive services but abortion if they so choose is to them and just running pro-life candidates and the like is just throwing them under the bus. Same with Black Lives Matter and doing what we can to crack down on police brutality and institutional racism.

Especially since not only women, but black women in particular are the backbone of the Democratic party. You think you can keep their votes by just undermining that and kicking those issues to the curb? Please. That's no way to reward all their hard work and efforts, and they will take notice. I know I sure as fuck will. And no amount of reassurances that "we need to get elected first, and once we're elected, then we'll get to you" will reassure me cause that's just historically obvious lies, every time it's tried. The people who are too cowardly to campaign on it end up being too cowardly to actually do anything about it at all if they are elected and actually risk losing their jobs, every time.

I'm willing to work with the Democratic Party because I believe that overall, they're a force for good and sure as fuck better than Republicans. But if the big tent is abolished and stuff like abortion/LGBT/Black Lives Matter and all that "identity politics" stuff is just thrown under the bus to make it happen? Then you can miss me, because you've missed the entire point of the current big tent coalition nature of the Democratic Party and regardless of what you say are trying to make it much more exclusive, and that can just entirely get tossed. I just can't begin to explain how much it utterly frustrates and disgusts me to see this shit crop up yet again.

It was nice to have finally gotten away from this disgusting garbage that popped up in waves after Trump won. But of course, of course after another prominent Democrat lost in a race again, of course the calls are once again that somehow the only way for Democrats to win is by winning over Trump voters and no other way and the only way to do that is apparently by kicking minority issues to the curb. Funny how that seems to work and people are so quick to jump to that conclusion, and will defend it to the death and will hear ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER WAY to win elections. Y'know, if they were really allies, you think they would at least be somewhat willing to hear out other options. That that would be an absolute last-resort, last-ditch, absolutely no other options left and everything else has been tried solution, if that, and that they would make it clear they feel super guilty about it and shit. But, NOPE. Every time a Democrat loses, it immediately becomes one of the absolute FIRST things on their list, without even trying anything else at all to really find out if it's those "damned identity politics" that are really the issue or not, and if you can actually win WITHOUT giving them up. Making sure you absolutely try everything else before that at the very least.

Nah, instead it's something they immediately jump, becoming convinced simply because a Democrat lost and immediately busting it out and finding every possible reason to do so and instead of being hesitant to do so and willing to hear other approaches, they defend to the death that that is the one and only way and will not hear any different. Definitely doesn't sound like someone who's really that hesitant to make that "sacrifice," when they immediately bust it out and will not hear any other approaches, no matter how well argued. Perhaps those who do so should take a moment to consider why and think about what's going on there and why they're both so fast to jump that to every time and yet so slow to even think about considering any other options but that, but alas....

Sorry this turned into a HUGE, repetitious rant, but goddamn that shit frustrates me and it tears me up to see it apparently come back in style and I just had to get this all out somewhere, so please forgive me for that.
 

Maxim726X

Member
Yeah I never get why people don't realize this. Jesus Christ could rise from the dead and run for President fit the Democrats and the GOP would smear the fuck out of him and their base would eat it up.

We do realize it. We also realize that it's more effective when they've been pounding the candidate for decades.

Do you?
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
This won't work because they don't care about minorities and won't vote on economics, they care about being protected form all those scary gay, black, and muslim people they show on Fox News!

This point gets trotted out a lot but if anyone wants even more recent data backing up check it out here: https://www.voterstudygroup.org/reports/2016-elections/political-divisions-in-2016-and-beyond
Republican voters aren't stupid (they're ignorant and down a deep propaganda hole, which isn't quite the same thing). They know that better healthcare is a good thing, and that pollution is bad. But they do not care enough about those issues for it to outweigh the things they do care about like abortion and religion and crucially making sure blacks and immigrants "don't get what they don't deserve". This is not a trivial set of priorities they shuffle around based on circumstance, this is how these people have voted for decades

Majority of Americans are pro stricter gun laws/background checks.

Yup and they have been for years. Why has nothing happened on gun control? Because while people say they support better background checks when they're polled they don't actually care that much about it. They don't care enough for it to change how they vote
 
To bring in young people Democrats should target Net Neutrality, Student loan debt, making college more affordable and climate change. Those issues along with a more charismatic candidate and democrats should do fine. Also democrats should specifically tailor certain issues to the area they are campaigning in. More awareness for registering and getting people to vote. Half of the voting public did not vote in the last presidential election getting more people engaged in politics and voting is a sure fire way to help democrats. Its a better idea then to try to court people who voted for Donald Trump. Also work on trying to make it easier for people to vote. Standing in long lines and making people miss a day of work is ridiculous the process should be a lot easier. Democrats do have a problem that Republicans do not the Republican party is pretty homogeneous. So its easier for republicans to tailor their message because they only have to speak to that one group of people.
 

Toxi

Banned
Not at all, they certainly shouldn't abandon it. But there should be some substance thrown in occasionally. I'm not seeing much.
But there wasn't any substance in the attacks on Ossoff involving Pelosi.

So why should we ditch Pelosi?
 
Some of you are acting like you've never seen Pelosi speak publicly. She's terrible. Carries no enthusiasm, seems confused, and is a lighting rod to get the right out to the polls. Couple that with being a gaffe machine and I see no reason to keep her out front. Let her use her influence behind the scenes.

The right's propaganda machine was barley able to stop a wet towel from becoming president after a decades long smear campaign. Other party leaders face nowhere near the targeted attacks she does and that's because she feeds them the ammo they need.

"We have to pass it for you to find out what's in it."

Jesus fucking Christ they still beat this drum to get their side to vote. Everyone here knows what she meant but most voters don't.

She has to take a less public role.
 
I don't think important social issues like gender and marriage equality and abortion rights are the ones that should be jettisoned to get people to vote for Dems. There's more low-hanging fruit (IMO at least). Language policing / overly PC stuff just really isn't that important in the grand scheme of things.

The topic of illegal immigration has always been.. surprising? to me. That anybody could answer the question "should people be able to come here illegally and get away with it" with anything other than "no" is somewhat baffling to me. Changing immigration policies / deporting people are entirely different discussions in my opinion.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
There's an awful strawman in this thread where changing your messaging has turned into changing your governing when the two are only very loosely related. When people are suggesting a reduction on focusing on certain civil issues, they're not saying don't implement those issues in office, they're saying that marginal vote doesn't care about those issues and you need to talk to that marginal vote about something else. The Democrats should absolutely continue to offer every manner of support to black Americans, women, the LGBT community, and so on. But you need to understand that this means very little to a white guy in Pennsylvania who lost his job because rural industry is dead. You need to have a message for him; he is your marginal vote.
 

Maxim726X

Member
But there wasn't any substance in the attacks on Ossoff involving Pelosi.

So why should we ditch Pelosi?

Because Pelosi is a net negative. Again, this isn't just a hot take on a gaming forum, Democrats on the Hill are discussing it.

Obviously, there was more to his loss than Pelosi, but she was a part of it.
 
Facts generally don't matter to a huge chunk of the electorate that votes with its gut. That's how we end up with rural folks dependent on Medicaid and disability, older folks dependent on Medicare and Social Security and poor folks voting for the party that wants to shrink the government by implementing tax cuts for the richest of us.

We need a compelling moral vision that says government is the answer, not the problem, that strong Unions built the middle class, that environment regulations will steward the planet into the future so our kids are healthy enough to have jobs and that black and brown lives matter just as much as anyone else's.
 
Well I wish you guys luck. I'm still waiting for those "shifting demographics" to kick in. Supposedly that's the Democrats strength yet they have less federal control now then in any other time in my entire 43 years.

I will be happy to vote again when the left has control of the supreme court. You guys just do that and I will be right out there again voting with you!
 

kess

Member
It's not that fucking hard to run as the party of housing, jobs, and universal health care for all. Despise Corbyn all you want, but that's what he said, and that's what people heard.

Being not-Trump didn't work for Hillary, and it doesn't work now.
 

Erevador

Member
People need to understand that identity politics and civil rights are NOT the same thing.

The Democrats must protect the civil rights of all citizens. Unequivocally.

What they shouldn't do is take the losing side in the waging of an unnecessary and divisive culture war. They cannot allow the hardline radical social activists to stage a hostile takeover of the national party.

This is not entirely about policy. It is about language. It is about America's relationship with its history, its relationship with its iconography, and its sense of confidence and cohesion in its own identity. Throughout the western world the left-wing elite are getting these things very badly wrong. There are many areas where the public agrees with left-wing stances, but can't swallow the attitude and rhetoric of the parties that are advancing those stances.

Democrats must embrace ONE universal message, rather than trying to pander separately to every interest group. They have to be a big-tent party that speaks to the dignity and dreams of every American, without sowing the seeds of division and separatism. All the double-speak does is make every faction feel suspicious and betrayed, leading to constant internal self-cannibalization. This happened under the surface in 2016, and the populist/union element of the party quietly defected to Trump. Meanwhile the party continues to devour itself in infighting and paralysis while Republicans continue to win.

Remember, Hillary actually thought it was a good idea to tie her image to that of Lena Dunham and the stars of Broad City. Is she insane, or just hopelessly out of touch? All of this while failing to show up in Wisconsin and Michigan.

Breathtaking cluelessness.
 
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