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[ronaldthump]

Play horizon and uncharted TLL

 

[Yoshi]

Is this representative? Having asked 1250 people is a good amount, but I wonder if they made sure they have a representative sample, considering it is a free online survey. In Germany, there is a polling company who does online polls and the discrepancy between raw data and representative data is astonishing (e.g. we are talking >20% for the Nazis light in the raw data vs. 7-8% in the representative data).

 

[Budi]

I don't care what gender he character is as long as they're cool or interesting

Yeah me neither. But I do care that also others than me get characters to relate with or ones they greatly enjoy. Gaming industry doesn't need to revolve around me. And I care for the medium to grow.

 

[Bold One]

I think they're very important and credit to a lot of devs for making an effort as of late. Personally, I feel POC deserve as much attention as MC if not more, because whenever we do get a female protagonist she'll be white by default.

 

[Danjin44]

You prefer passive protagonists whose sole motivations are to coddle the male hero's ego?

Is it that hard for u to believe that other people like different things than u do or are u one of self-centred people who believe your opinion is some how superior than others?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

If that's how you took my post, sure. Anything besides another character like Aloy. I think she was just as bad, if not worse, than your generic white male protagonist. I much prefer Vance and 2B as I consider them more well written.

What is exceptionally well-written about Vance?

Is it that hard for u

*you

 

[timetokill]

That would be the one case where I'd say it would be doing it because you felt a pressure to other than making sense. It would be like Indiana Jones suddenly being replaced by a female protagonist in the third film. In the line of a franchise with an established lead it makes complete sense to have other characters narratives told independently.

There needs to be more franchises built around female leads, not just trying to shoe-horn them in to existing ones with an iconic male character.

I see what you're saying, so it's probably my own hangup, but I always felt like Uncharted would be a much more interesting series with different leads as opposed to always Nathan Drake. If the series was called "Nathan Drake" (a la Indiana Jones) then that would be one thing, but I would find the franchise much more compelling if each numbered Uncharted was just a different character going on a grand adventure.

But again, that's probably my own hangup because I don't really view Nathan Drake as iconic. Indiana Jones' hat and whip make him iconic, and I just don't see Drake's half-tuck as doing the same thing.

 

[kennyamr]

I don't care who or what the character is, as long as it's done well.

correct.

 

[Trance]

There are two levels I look at this at.
1: The initial decision on what kind of story to tell in the first place. Here is where I believe more female-led games should be greenlit. This is the stage where I'm thinking about representation and cultural context.
2: Once the decision has been made, making it as great as possible. Here, I'm more focused on the execution.

Now the two are intertwined. A female character can still be completely bungled and be a bad representation, like Other M.

The point is that I'm not going to hold it against a game for having a male protagonist. The issue is aggregate and no one game is to blame. It's about the gatekeepers and not only what they greenlit but who gets to makes these games.

 

[show me your skeleton]

i see the ol' 'creative vision' rubbish has come up a few times already.

 

[The ๖ۜBronx]

I see what you're saying, so it's probably my own hangup, but I always felt like Uncharted would be a much more interesting series with different leads as opposed to always Nathan Drake. If the series was called "Nathan Drake" (a la Indiana Jones) then that would be one thing, but I would find the franchise much more compelling if each numbered Uncharted was just a different character going on a grand adventure.

But again, that's probably my own hangup because I don't really view Nathan Drake as iconic. Indiana Jones' hat and whip make him iconic, and I just don't see Drake's half-tuck as doing the same thing.

That's cool, thanks for elaborating. Totally agree on the iconic front as well. I have no affinity for Uncharted (I've played half of the first one) but know many who have, and have for Nathan Drake. Personally I like the idea of having something like Uncharted where each numbered iteration explores a different narrative with different characters, just in the same world and overarching theme.

 

[timetokill]

That's cool, thanks for elaborating. Totally agree on the iconic front as well. I have no affinity for Uncharted (I've played half of the first one) but know many who have, and have for Nathan Drake. Personally I like the idea of having something like Uncharted where each numbered iteration explores a different narrative with different characters, just in the same world and overarching theme.

Yeah, exactly! You could even have cameos from the characters from different games.

 

[luulubuu]

To all who are saying "I don't care about gender if the chracter is done correctly" can you ellaborate on this? Because I'm seeing this argument all over the place with not a real explanation.
What's correctly to you? Because if something related to tastes, that's an apathy problem.

You can't just say "It has to be done correctly" Is the Demifiend a correct character? Is a mute blank slate where the player can grow, it will be good or not, depending on your own tastes.

ya know what? no I'm not doing this.

 

[MilkyJoe]

To all who are saying "I don't care about gender if the chracter is done correctly" can you ellaborate on this? Because I'm seeing this argument all over the place with not a real explanation.
What's correctly to you? Because if something related to tastes, that's an apathy problem.

You can't just say "It has to be done correctly" Is the Demifiend a correct character? Is a mute blank slate where the player can grow, it will be good or not, depending on your own tastes.

You could try using common sense to answer your questions.

 

[luulubuu]

You could try using common sense to answer your questions.

Reading this the pacman dies sound played on my brain.

 

[Ascenion]

To all who are saying "I don't care about gender if the chracter is done correctly" can you ellaborate on this? Because I'm seeing this argument all over the place with not a real explanation.
What's correctly to you? Because if something related to tastes, that's an apathy problem.

You can't just say "It has to be done correctly" Is the Demifiend a correct character? Is a mute blank slate where the player can grow, it will be good or not, depending on your own tastes.

Ideally you'd develop the character's traits and personality first as well as role in-story while not making them male or female yet. Once the character is fleshed out you decide whether it works better for them to be a male or female. To me that makes the character well developed yet the gender doesn't matter. You can add gender nuances in later.

 

[massoluk]

I care in the "I'm not playing another bald space marine" kind of way. Male protagonists are way overdone.



To quote Supreme court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg on When will there be enough women on the United States supreme court?

"So now the perception is, yes, women are here to stay. And when I'm sometimes asked when will there be enough [women on the supreme court]? And I say when there are nine, people are shocked. But there'd been nine men, and nobody's ever raised a question about that."

 

[TatteredHat]

To all who are saying "I don't care about gender if the chracter is done correctly" can you ellaborate on this? Because I'm seeing this argument all over the place with not a real explanation.
What's correctly to you? Because if something related to tastes, that's an apathy problem.

You can't just say "It has to be done correctly" Is the Demifiend a correct character? Is a mute blank slate where the player can grow, it will be good or not, depending on your own tastes.

Even as someone who is on the "I personally don't really care" side of the things I don't think there's such a thing as a "correct" character. Every character is correct, after that it's just a matter of taste.

If we go beyond gender I am represented by a grand total of exactly 0 protagonists in gaming, which is why I don't particularly care for whether or not a character is female.

 

[televator]

It's not apathetic if you seriously don't care either way.

Another post to file under "The shit I read in NeoGAF sometimes"

 

[luulubuu]

Ideally you'd develop the character's traits and personality first as well as role in-story while not making them male or female yet. Once the character is fleshed out you decide whether it works better for them to be a male or female. To me that makes the character well developed yet the gender doesn't matter. You can add gender nuances in later.

Ideally, however in most cases is simply market and how to sell it

Even as someone who is on the "I personally don't really care" side of the things I don't think there's such a thing as a "correct" character. Every character is correct, after that it's just a matter of taste.

If we go beyond gender I am represented by a grand total of exactly 0 protagonists in gaming, which is why I don't particularly care for whether or not a character is female.

Thats the thing, I think people saying a character is "correct" is totally dependent on their tastes, if the tastes are subjective, can a character be correct at all under that premise?

 

[ZangBa]

I'm indifferent to it. My interest in games starts and ends with gameplay. If it's wack, it get flushed. I'd prefer developers follow their vision, whatever that may be. 2B is already my favorite character this year, doubt anyone will come close.

The issue I see is game development is basically dominated by men, and having a bunch of dudes design and write women seems like a real gamble. I mean we got Quiet for a real good reason.

 

[nel e nel]

I'm indifferent to it. My interest in games starts and ends with gameplay. If it's wack, it get flushed. I'd prefer developers follow their vision, whatever that may be. 2B is already my favorite character this year, doubt anyone will come close.

The issue I see is game development is basically dominated by men, and having a bunch of dudes design and write women seems like a real gamble. I mean we got Quiet for a real good reason.

From my perspective we got Quiet for real bad reasons.

 

[Roufianos]

I'm happy to play as either sex so long as it's the story that the devs actually want to tell. I'd hate to think that a female protagonist was dropped for broader appeal or a male protagonist was opted against solely for the sake of diversity.

 

[NoName999]

I think sometimes it helps the situation and discussion to not project one's own misgivings about an (important issue) onto others as a knee-jerk reaction, and try to understand what some poster's are actually saying.

If they truly didn't care at all, they wouldn't even bother posting in this topic.

Especially when we have so many garbage-written male characters. Yet no one ever says "Male characters need to be written well"

 

[Soul of the Beast]

It's that attitude that led to lead protagonists being dominated by men.

Gotta tackle the issue head on instead of being apathetic.

''tackle the issue ahead''

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

If they truly didn't care at all, they wouldn't even bother posting in this topic.

Especially when we have so many garbage-written male characters. Yet no one ever says "Male characters need to be written well"

Did you even read the rest of what I said?

I believe the people saying they don't care if a protagonist is female are actually saying, "they believe it shouldn't matter what gender the protagonist is".

Which is a totally correct statement. It shouldn't matter, but unfortunately, due to a lack of female representation in games it does matter (a lot). You're taking issue with the people. I'm saying you should be taking issue with how the question itself was framed.

If the question in the OP was "do we need more female protagonists in gaming", 99% of respondents in this thread will agree. If you don't believe me, try it out... pick one of the posts in this thread you take issue with and ask the poster the above question. It'll be clear how you misunderstood their original intent.

Also, no-one says "we need better written male characters" because they say "we need better written characters all round", and given how most gaming protagonists are male (a fact your agree with), the gender qualifier is pretty much implied.

 

[luulubuu]

I'm happy to play as either sex so long as it's the story that the devs actually want to tell. I'd hate to think that a female protagonist was dropped for broader appeal or a male protagonist was opted against solely for the sake of diversity.

I don't think this has ever happened, and if it has happened not enough to be a real concern

Plus, nice contradiction btw

 

[LotusHD]

I'm happy to play as either sex so long as it's the story that the devs actually want to tell. I'd hate to think that a female protagonist was dropped for broader appeal or a male protagonist was opted against solely for the sake of diversity.

Lol

 

[SolidSnakex]

I'm happy to play as either sex so long as it's the story that the devs actually want to tell. I'd hate to think that a female protagonist was dropped for broader appeal or a male protagonist was opted against solely for the sake of diversity.

Can you actually think of a time that this has ever happened? It's the opposite that happens. Here's one about Deadly Premonition

Swery At first we were considering a female FBI agent as the main role, but after receiving some input from overseas we changed it to the male character that’s in the game now. We listened to a lot of advice from overseas and since I play a lot of non-Japanese games I wasn’t so opposed to much of the comments. However, what I am picky about is the story and the gameplay so when we heard that we should add some gun shooting aspects to the game (probably marketing advice), I wasn’t so sure. With hindsight, I guess the game was seen as a kind of twist on the survival horror theme so perhaps they 　weren’t completely wrong to suggest it.

http://www.toybox-games.jp/english0107.html

Here's what Activision did to a game called Black Lotus that would eventually go on to become True Crime HK and then Sleeping Dogs once it was sold to Square

One individual, a former employee, tells us that the original concept for Black Lotus' protagonist had been modeled on actress Lucy Liu, whose action-heroine roles in films like Charlie's Angels and Kill Bill formed the basic inspiration. "Black Lotus was a great project internally," says the source. "We were all very proud of what we were trying to make and the team was excited. We made great progress."

But 2007 was a year when the top sellers on Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 included Halo 3, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, Assassin's Creed and Madden NFL -- and the conclusion Activision took from that was that there was no room on the market for games starring a female main character. Another former employee with knowledge of the situation explains: "We were all on board, and then Activision killed it, said they don't do female characters because they don't sell."

"Activision gave us specific direction to lose the chick," says the other source plainly.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/120558/InDepth_No_Female_Heroes_At_Activision.php

And while not the lead, you have the story of Elizabeth being kicked off the front of Bioshock Infinite box

“I understand that some of the fans are disappointed. We expected it. I know that may be hard to hear, but let me explain the thinking.”

“We went and did a tour… around to a bunch of, like, frathouses and places like that. People who were gamers. Not people who read IGN. And [we] said, so, have you guys heard of BioShock? Not a single one of them had heard of it.”

“I looked at the cover art for BioShock 1, which I was heavily involved with and love, I adored. And I tried to step back and say, if I’m just some guy, some frat guy, I love games but don’t pay attention to them… if I saw the cover of that box, what would I think? And I would think, this is a game about a robot and a little girl. That’s what I would think. I was trying to be honest with myself. Trust me, I was heavily involved with the creation of those characters and I love them.”

“I wanted the uninformed, the person who doesn’t read IGN… to pick up the box and say, okay, this looks kind of cool, let me turn it over. Oh, a flying city. Look at this girl, Elizabeth on the back. Look at that creature. And start to read about it, start to think about it.”

https://www.wired.com/2012/12/bioshock-infinite-box-art/

 

[ZangBa]

From my perspective we got Quiet for real bad reasons.

I was being sarcastic, but sarcasm doesn't work too well online so, eh.

 

[luulubuu]

Can you actually think of a time that this has ever happened? It's the opposite that happens. Here's one about Deadly Premonition



http://www.toybox-games.jp/english0107.html

Here's what Activision did to a game called Black Lotus that would eventually go on to become True Crime HK and then Sleeping Dogs once it was sold to Square



https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/120558/InDepth_No_Female_Heroes_At_Activision.php

And while not the lead, you have the story of Elizabeth being kicked off the front of Bioshock Infinite box







https://www.wired.com/2012/12/bioshock-infinite-box-art/

 

[Prototype Viktor]

fire

<calls 911>

people act like game companies weren't following the same self fulfilled prophecy that the movie industry was/is going through

 

[Servbot24]

Representation matters. Diversity matters. So they are both very important.

You're not wrong, but it sucks that including females is considered diverse or a progressive form of representation. It should be the common sense bare bones baseline.

 

[kamineko]

I think male protagonists are ok, as long as they are well-written

 

[kikiribu]

Just as important as male protags, so just like I wouldn't want every game to feature a male lead, I wouldn't want every game to feature a female lead either.

 

[CazTGG]

You're not wrong, but it sucks that including females is considered diverse or a progressive form of representation. It should be the common sense bare bones baseline.

We're talking about an industry where publishers get antsy about the sales potential of a game with same-sex kisses. Video games, as an industry, is a boy club that's highly adverse to progress of any sort. In general, anti-progressivism is thoroughly engrained in the gaming industry, to say nothing of the tech industry in general. This is why it matters when Naughty Dog fought to keep Ellie on the box art of The Last of Us and why it matters when Sony simultaneously feels it necessary to focus test the woman protagonist of Horizon: Zero Dawn because "a female protagonist could be too risky".

 

[Turin]

A greater number and variety of female protagonists would be healthy for the industry.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

I think male protagonists are ok, as long as they are well-written

Niiiiice

 

[LotusHD]

I think male protagonists are ok, as long as they are well-written

Heh

 

[Laiza]

I think male protagonists are ok, as long as they are well-written

Perfection.

 

[Sailor Xan]

Supposedly when the original Shantae was in development, there was pressure to include a male co-protagonist (with, I'm sure the expectation that he'd be the one on the box, the default on the character select screen, and so on).

Granted, the game didn't sell particularly well, but that probably had more to do with it being a GBC game a year after the release of the GBA.