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[CptPusheen]

It's strange that people are worried about developers having to target both 12tf and 4tf. Modern game engines are super scalable, just look at Switch. Also it's clear that Anaconda is 4K machine and Lockhart is 1080p. CPU will be the same, ram will be possibly smaller because of smaller textures, ssd possibly same speed but smaller. And that's all. What problem do you see? When only gpu is X time smaller, you need to lower resolution and voila. No need to sweat

 

[Shmunter]

It's strange that people are worried about developers having to target both 12tf and 4tf. Modern game engines are super scalable, just look at Switch. Also it's clear that Anaconda is 4K machine and Lockhart is 1080p. CPU will be the same, ram will be possibly smaller because of smaller textures, ssd possibly same speed but smaller. And that's all. What problem do you see? When only gpu is X time smaller, you need to lower resolution and voila. No need to sweat

Because you build for the 4tf and then just slap it onto the 12tf with a few adjusted sliders. As opposed to just having the 12tf to work with, putting all effort into utilising that 12tf in innovative ways, pushing boundaries and concepts, not just resolution.

And more-so true if the 4tf is the dominant seller.

If a 2080ti was the lowest common denominator, we’d see an explosion of amazing looking games, RT, etc. instead it’s niche and targeting a niche product is counter intuitive with a mass market product such as a game.

 

[CptPusheen]

Because you build for the 4tf and then just slap it onto the 12tf with a few adjusted sliders. As opposed to just having the 12tf to work with, putting all effort into utilising that 12tf in innovative ways, pushing boundaries and concepts, not just resolution.

And more-so true if the 4tf is the dominant seller.

If a 2080ti was the lowest common denominator, we’d see an explosion of amazing looking games, RT, etc. instead it’s niche and targeting a niche product is counter intuitive with a mass market product such as a game.

​

There is no logic in what you say. Lockhart will be capable of doing exactly same stuff just in lower res.

 

[Kokoloko85]

Yeah but 7TF is something completely else than 4TF of course.

It shows the mindset. Both sides want bragging rights

 

[Kokoloko85]

There is no logic in what you say. Lockhart will be capable of doing exactly same stuff just in lower res.

Lol thats not how A.I Physics, new and more animation and interactive gameplay works.

You cant just downgrade resoultion and FPS and get games like God of War, Uncharted 4 and more etc on a PS3 or Xbox 360....

It will hold back future games for sure. Thats why there is a next gen

 

[THE DUCK]

2 more thoughts:

One - ms runs the risk of confusing consumers with 2 skews, this will be an uphill battle even if lockheart is a success.

Two: imagine if ms has a version of dlss that matches or beats nvidia's new level of quality, all the sudden we have a 1080p powered machine that is rendering at lower levels but is putting out image quality closer 1440p and in some cases close to 4k quality. This could in fact be a huge game changer.
Maybe it doesn't do this with enough power to implement ray tracing, but joe casual buyer doesnt care, and the die hard buy an x or a ps5. So close to 4k gaming with a modern cpu and ssd for fast loading, future support, xbox ecosystem, backwards compatibility all at $299, and all the sudden it starts to look like a good idea.

Also the poll is dumb, you cant get a proper vote until we know what lockheart actually is, dont know what we are voting for.

 

[Bogroll]

Does the ssd need to be as fast as XSX because of smaller textures etc and if if it was the same speed as XSX would that mean it will be faster at loading than XSX or even PS5 as everything 4 times smaller, as in 1080p v 4k.

 

[CptPusheen]

Lol thats not how A.I Physics, new and more animation and interactive gameplay works.

You cant just downgrade resoultion and FPS and get games like God of War, Uncharted 4 and more etc on a PS3 or Xbox 360....

It will hold back future games for sure. Thats why there is a next gen

You clearly don't get how stuff work under same architecture. PS4 to PS3 is not the same as 12TF RDNA2.0 to 4TF RDNA2.0. Animations, physics and AI are cpu bound, that's why cpu will stay the same in lockhart, also that's why ram speed, ssd speed will stay the same. Because the only thing they will want to sacrifice is resolution, most GPU power is consumed for this. Of course we have stuff like gpu accelerated particles etc but this is why going from 4k to 1080p which is quater the resolution, there is no quater the gpu power but 1/3. There is some overhead for other stuff computed by gpu.

 

[Three]

There is no logic in what you say. Lockhart will be capable of doing exactly same stuff just in lower res.

There is logic. What if I want to make a 1080p game with better graphics? Or use the compute units for something other than a resolution bump, say like the havok PS4 demo where they used GPU for physics.

 

[CptPusheen]

There is logic. What if I want to make a 1080p game with better graphics? Or use the compute units for something other than a resolution bump, say like the havok PS4 demo where they used GPU for physics.

There will be no 1080p games on next gen.

 

[Kumomeme]

There will be no 1080p games on next gen.

im not suprise if there still 1800p/1440p checkerboard game with ML...probably not at early of generation, but later on

 

[Flintty]

Wait a sec... What if Lockhart Is the same specs as the One


I know nothing has been reported. But the more I think of it... Why continue to make the xbox one S?

If Lockhart is around the PS4 in price and plays all xbox one games anyways? Plus can move forward with next gen features?

Yeah the OG 1 and S should be taken out the back and shot tbh. If you want a new Xbox, there should be only XSX and XSS.

 

[Shmunter]

There will be no 1080p games on next gen.

What about 1080p checkerboarded to a higher res? What about the 1080p rt Minecraft?

360p on XsX?

 

[Mista]

Man, I just don't get Lockhart.
Ok, if they wanted a cheaper console, just do an all digital version of the XSX.
Or, if they are he'll bent on a cheaper version, have a 6tflop version that's all digital.

Not ideal. An all digital version will still cost + people love physical games so don’t take that away from them

I find it smart that they’re providing options if they wanna attract the casuals also but again, don’t give me 3-4 consoles to tackle everything. XSX is the powerful one, so make one more that is less powerful and all is good. Games enthusiasts will go with the XSX thats a no brainer. People don’t buy expensive 4k TVs to go and get the cheaper console. In other simple words, whatever the Lockhart is, it isn’t meant for us.

 

[deriks]

Why this when One X is more powerfull?

 

[Mista]

Why this when One X is more powerfull?

It seems to me that they’ll be selling the XSX with a loss so maybe they hope the Lockhart brings them something

 

[Hendrick's]

Why this when One X is more powerfull?

It's not.

 

[Jooxed]

Switch is for kiddies and man-children

MiyazakiHatesKojima damn no one appreciates us.

 

[Dontero]

If lockheart has 4Tf then you can just as well cancel next gen. Either that or MS will sell 2mln copies of console and will shut down its console division.

 

[Genx3]

I don't think there is any point releasing a new console that will target 1080p. I mean hell, you can get a 43 inch 4K/HDR TV for $200 nowadays.

I agree.
I don't see the point except maybe for some bedroom TV's.
If MS can make it simple on devs where they could develop the game on XSX and then very simply drop down the res to 1080P and it would run on Lock Hart then it might make sense at the right price around $250 - $300. If its a lot of work or Any price higher then I mentioned imo, it doesn't make any sense.

 

[Genx3]

Because you build for the 4tf and then just slap it onto the 12tf with a few adjusted sliders. As opposed to just having the 12tf to work with, putting all effort into utilising that 12tf in innovative ways, pushing boundaries and concepts, not just resolution.

That is not how XGS does it.
XGS always builds from the top down. Currently they were making games for XB1X and porting down.
Next gen they will make games for XSX and port down to 1080P Lock Hart.

 

[SakkanartSilentJealousy]

4TF RDNA2 should better than 6TF GCN right?

for 1080p only?

 

[Mista]

If lockheart has 4Tf then you can just as well cancel next gen. Either that or MS will sell 2mln copies of console and will shut down its console division.

Lets not talk like if there isn't XSX

 

[Genx3]

4TF RDNA2 should better than 6TF GCN right?

for 1080p only?

Way better as long as its targeting 1080P resolution.
XB1X is a current gen console targeting 4K resolutions while Lock Hart is a next gen console targeting 1080P resolution.
You'll still have 4 X the CPU, SSD and a GPU with Next Gen features such as Ray Tracing, VRS, etc.

 

[Flintty]

If lockheart has 4Tf then you can just as well cancel next gen. Either that or MS will sell 2mln copies of console and will shut down its console division.

This will age really well.

 

[Genx3]

Its true, Lock Hart is simply a way for MS to give people an easy, inexpensive method to get into the eco system.
In order to sustain Game Pass they are going to need numbers. That's a lot of studios that are making games.

 

[Agnostic2020]

As long as ssd and cpu are same many issues will be solved.

Some game designs will be affected as designing a game for 12 tf gpu base is way different than designing a game for 4 tf one as base but that's a separate topic and is about game design and not graphics .

 

[Mistershine.]

I've been wondering if series s is actually just a replacement for the one X with a bit more grunt to smooth it out, along with being able to add HDR and maybe upscale everything to 4k rather than just BC, and also have the xcloud client for next gen games.

 

[Genx3]

I've been wondering if series s is actually just a replacement for the one X with a bit more grunt to smooth it out, along with being able to add HDR and maybe upscale everything to 4k rather than just BC, and also have the xcloud client for next gen games.

For next gen:
XSS will replace the XB1S as the 1080P entry level sku.
XSX will replace the XB1X as the 4K sku.

 

[diffusionx]

Because you build for the 4tf and then just slap it onto the 12tf with a few adjusted sliders. As opposed to just having the 12tf to work with, putting all effort into utilising that 12tf in innovative ways, pushing boundaries and concepts, not just resolution.

And more-so true if the 4tf is the dominant seller.

If a 2080ti was the lowest common denominator, we’d see an explosion of amazing looking games, RT, etc. instead it’s niche and targeting a niche product is counter intuitive with a mass market product such as a game.

Except, of course, that no games were ever going to be written to the Series X baseline, with or without the existence of Lockhart. Every third party game is multiplatform. Every Microsoft game lands on PC. There is no "high baseline". Even Sony games are going to be landing on PC.

Microsoft's strategy is clearly built around the realities of vidya development in 2020, where devs and publishers put their games on every platform. The Series X provides enough hardware to run those games really well, but it is not and was never going to be a place for groundbreaking exclusives.

 

[martino]

For next gen:
XSS will replace the XB1S as the 1080P entry level sku.
XSX will replace the XB1X as the 4K sku.

seems to work really well for me at least

Xbox one S -> xbox |S
Xbox one X -> xbox |X

 

[Dontero]

This will age really well.

The point here is that there will be barely any difference. Between this gen and next one as baseline for next gen will not even be 4 times while going from X360 baseline to Xbox One baseline was 0.2 to 1.2 aka 10 times difference.

If only PS5 and SEX exist then we would jump nearly again 10 times.

Every third party game is multiplatform. Every Microsoft game lands on PC. There is no "high baseline". Even Sony games are going to be landing on PC

Sorry but this is just bullshit. There is a point where developers choose what tech they will be using based on what is available on market. It always was the case and always will be. The point of consoles is to set clear baseline you work against and it won;t go away. Even on PC most of PC exclusive developers watch what people use and base their game technologies on that.

When it comes to AAA gaming PC is not a factor for most of developers because:

a) most of their sales are on consoles as PC market is way more competetive than consoles
b) PCs hardware will improve in almost no time to outpace consoles in less that 1 year maybe 2 years at best

So there is no point in counting PC when you choose technologies you will be pushing your graphics with.

 

[joe_zazen]

.

You clearly don't get how stuff work under same architecture. PS4 to PS3 is not the same as 12TF RDNA2.0 to 4TF RDNA2.0. Animations, physics and AI are cpu bound, that's why cpu will stay the same in lockhart, also that's why ram speed, ssd speed will stay the same. Because the only thing they will want to sacrifice is resolution, most GPU power is consumed for this. Of course we have stuff like gpu accelerated particles etc but this is why going from 4k to 1080p which is quater the resolution, there is no quater the gpu power but 1/3. There is some overhead for other stuff computed by gpu.

there is a reason devs told scheirer that they hated working on lockhart, and it wasnt because they had to press a button labeled ’1080p’.

the hardware will be cut down, and this will limit things and it will require more time and money to optimise. MS is going to require all xbox games to run on lockhart, hence it will be the boatanchor for the gen, just like x1 was. This is bad news for everyone.

Sucks, but microsoft is the most powerful company in earth, and if they want things this way, tough shit.

 

[martino]

The point here is that there will be barely any difference. Between this gen and next one as baseline for next gen will not even be 4 times while going from X360 baseline to Xbox One baseline was 0.2 to 1.2 aka 10 times difference.

If only PS5 and SEX exist then we would jump nearly again 10 times.

they will come at you with architecture improvement but it was 10 times + them too .

 

[Aion002]

If this is true... Well, that's a good approach from MS.

A cheap console to fight in the casual market and a strong one to go after the more invested gamer.

This might become the best gen (in sales) for MS so far.


However, they will have to make concessions on their games, so that both machines are able to play them in a good way. And that might not be interesting for gamers.

Anyways... I am hyped with this rumor, just to see how it will play out.

 

[DaGwaphics]

there is a reason devs told scheirer that they hated working on lockhart, and it wasnt because they had to press a button labeled ’1080p’.

the hardware will be cut down, and this will limit things and it will require more time and money to optimise. MS is going to require all xbox games to run on lockhart, hence it will be the boatanchor for the gen, just like x1 was. This is bad news for everyone.

Sucks, but microsoft is the most powerful company in earth, and if they want things this way, tough shit.

Keep in mind that developers of note don't break NDA's and have been telling Scheirer nothing. Also, there is no doubt that the additional sku will result in more hours of work play-testing, etc. Consoles don't exist in a vacuum, 99% of developers have to work with varying hardware on PC everyday. The difference is that consoles are typically expected to utilize settings that will hit X framerate target as best they can, this results in more testing.

 

[mckmas8808]

If the Lockhart is priced under 200 (which I know it won't) it could be a genius way to get more Xbox systems into the everyday man's livingroom. Or it could be ignored for the SEX.

Whatever the case, I like Microsoft's aggressiveness with the Xbox brand right now. Nobody can't say that they aren't trying or investing big money into the platform.

No way this is less than $299 if it's 4TF.

 

[Shmunter]

Except, of course, that no games were ever going to be written to the Series X baseline, with or without the existence of Lockhart. Every third party game is multiplatform. Every Microsoft game lands on PC. There is no "high baseline". Even Sony games are going to be landing on PC.

Microsoft's strategy is clearly built around the realities of vidya development in 2020, where devs and publishers put their games on every platform. The Series X provides enough hardware to run those games really well, but it is not and was never going to be a place for groundbreaking exclusives.

What drives baselines is adoption. If XsX sells 100 million units, you can bet your bottom dollar software would target it. Low adoption systems get relegated to scraps with shit ports. Introduce a cheap cut down console that sells 100 million units instead and XsX becomes Oliver Twist....please sir, may I have another...no fuck off Twist.

 

[CptPusheen]

there is a reason devs told scheirer that they hated working on lockhart, and it wasnt because they had to press a button labeled ’1080p’.

the hardware will be cut down, and this will limit things and it will require more time and money to optimise. MS is going to require all xbox games to run on lockhart, hence it will be the boatanchor for the gen, just like x1 was. This is bad news for everyone.

Sucks, but microsoft is the most powerful company in earth, and if they want things this way, tough shit.

Well, sorry but I don't trust Schreier, especially when it comes to Xbox.

 

[joe_zazen]

Well, sorry but I don't trust Schreier, especially when it comes to Xbox.

thats cool. And i hope i am wrong and xss is what supporters say it is.

I just think that ms has to cut down memory,apu, and ssd to make the box cheap. And that means lower baseline hardware for next 7-10 years.

 

[mckmas8808]

Is Series X a three year old design (even older from production), based heavily on last generation technology and original Xbox One design decisions (like the Jaguar CPU)?

Your ‘gotcha’, and attempt at console warring, relies on parity between the PS5/Series X situation, and this theoretical Lockhart/Xbox One X situation. Which doesn’t exist.

Judging from this, and frequent posts in the past, it looks like you could use some more compute capability yourself.

The thing that's so frustrating about talking about next-gen is the lies and false narratives that have been created. This belief that the PS5 and XSX won't be super similar is insane. In most 3rd party games the XSX will have slightly higher resolution, but almost all games will run the same (framerate wise). It'll be dynamic 4K with the PS5 and native 4K with the XSX. And in some cases, this might even leave the PS5 with the better framerate (until the XSX gets a post-release update to allow dynamic 4K too due to devs not being able to code just for the XSX).

We all know if Lockhart is $299, there will have to be TREMENDOUS amounts of hardware that's removed or shrunken down in order to hit that price. And that will make the game suffer (IF you are comparing them to the XSX and PS5 games). It's literally not possible for the Lockhart games to look the same (features and all) as the XSX and PS5 games "AND" it cost $299 at 4TF and 1080p. If it could MS wouldn't sell that console for $299. They'd sell it for $350-$400. Why lose more money on hardware just to so-call "WIN" a next-gen race?

Especially when the man running Xbox said directly "We aren't competing with Sony and Nintendo, we are competing with Google Stadia and Amazon".

 

[Kokoloko85]

You clearly don't get how stuff work under same architecture. PS4 to PS3 is not the same as 12TF RDNA2.0 to 4TF RDNA2.0. Animations, physics and AI are cpu bound, that's why cpu will stay the same in lockhart, also that's why ram speed, ssd speed will stay the same. Because the only thing they will want to sacrifice is resolution, most GPU power is consumed for this. Of course we have stuff like gpu accelerated particles etc but this is why going from 4k to 1080p which is quater the resolution, there is no quater the gpu power but 1/3. There is some overhead for other stuff computed by gpu.

Not as simple as you say. So there gonna keep the ram, cpu, and sdd all the same as the 499 machine...?

 

[DaGwaphics]

The thing that's so frustrating about talking about next-gen is the lies and false narratives that have been created. This belief that the PS5 and XSX won't be super similar is insane. In most 3rd party games the XSX will have slightly higher resolution, but almost all games will run the same (framerate wise). It'll be dynamic 4K with the PS5 and native 4K with the XSX. And in some cases, this might even leave the PS5 with the better framerate (until the XSX gets a post-release update to allow dynamic 4K too due to devs not being able to code just for the XSX).

We all know if Lockhart is $299, there will have to be TREMENDOUS amounts of hardware that's removed or shrunken down in order to hit that price. And that will make the game suffer (IF you are comparing them to the XSX and PS5 games). It's literally not possible for the Lockhart games to look the same (features and all) as the XSX and PS5 games "AND" it cost $299 at 4TF and 1080p. If it could MS wouldn't sell that console for $299. They'd sell it for $350-$400. Why lose more money on hardware just to so-call "WIN" a next-gen race?

Especially when the man running Xbox said directly "We aren't competing with Sony and Nintendo, we are competing with Google Stadia and Amazon".

Why does Nvidia bother with a 2060 when they sell a 2080 ti? Because price point matters on "non-essential" purchases.

Xbox has moved in a PC like direction with all games appearing on PC. 95% of third-party games also appear on PC. Why be tied to this ecosystem via software without taking advantage of the biggest benefit of the PC platform (variable costs of entry)? Having 2 skus (even 3 or 4) with specific hardware is still nothing like PC where an endless combination of components are possible.

 

[Goliathy]

The thing that's so frustrating about talking about next-gen is the lies and false narratives that have been created. This belief that the PS5 and XSX won't be super similar is insane. In most 3rd party games the XSX will have slightly higher resolution, but almost all games will run the same (framerate wise). It'll be dynamic 4K with the PS5 and native 4K with the XSX. And in some cases, this might even leave the PS5 with the better framerate (until the XSX gets a post-release update to allow dynamic 4K too due to devs not being able to code just for the XSX).

well, let's just wait and see then? as soon as the games arrive we will see the difference, so relax. no need to be so frustrated. relax. it's just a plastic box.

I'm pretty sure that the difference will be huge though, and much larger than Xbox one vs ps4 in this gen, but again let's wait and see.

 

[Dunnas]

What about 1080p checkerboarded to a higher res? What about the 1080p rt Minecraft?

360p on XsX?

Checkerboard rendering doesn’t actually upscale the res. You may be thinking of machine learning upscaling like nvidia’s dlss. Based on the dlss 2.0 results, even upscaling from 540p to 1080p still gives a very good image. Therefore even if ML upscaling from 1080p to 4K is used on Series x for series x then Lockhart should still be fine with 540p to 1080p.

You’re right that something like Minecraft dxr could be a trickier case for Lockhart. However that probably depends if we can actually expect MS games on the next gen consoles to be using ML upscaling sooner rather than later, and if it can provide at least a good fraction of the gains that DLSS can provide on nvidia cards, given the lack of fixed function hardware for such tasks like the Turing cores on rtx cards. If ML upscaling is in play and is decent then I could see Minecraft dxr hitting 1080p 30 on Lockhart, with series x at 1440p 60, or something like that.

Or even if series x just manages 1080p 60 without ML upscaling, Lockhart should still be able to do around 800p 30.

 

[CptPusheen]

Not as simple as you say. So there gonna keep the ram, cpu, and sdd all the same as the 499 machine...?

I think CPU will be 1:1 the same, RAM speed also but it will be less than 16GB because of lower quality textures because of 1080p, also SSD will be the same speed but I think only 500GB(smaller textures again). Of course GPU will be 4TF. Not to mention that it will be easier to cool so less copper and aluminum, less plastic also as I think it will be significantly smaller. Let's also go with driveless and I think they will sell it for 100-150USD less than Series X

 

[mckmas8808]

I dont know what I want more. To be true and enjoy the shitposting and flamewars, or to be false and not to be crippled for a generation.

This is a funny post, but I'd choose the latter.

 

[DaGwaphics]

It will be interesting to see what XSX/PS5 can do with ML. It all depends on how much compute is needed to get dlss 2.0 results. The tensor cores can do a lot of 4/8 bit tops, but those are theoretical maximums based on the tensor cores doing nothing but that work. Dlss still uses high-level RT, so what ratio of the tensor cores are being used for the AI upscale? XSX/PS5 would need to run these calculations on the shaders, so the amount of tops really needed would decide if it was a feasible solution on console.

 

[prinz_valium]

.


there is a reason devs told scheirer that they hated working on lockhart, and it wasnt because they had to press a button labeled ’1080p’.

the hardware will be cut down, and this will limit things and it will require more time and money to optimise. MS is going to require all xbox games to run on lockhart, hence it will be the boatanchor for the gen, just like x1 was. This is bad news for everyone.

Sucks, but microsoft is the most powerful company in earth, and if they want things this way, tough shit.

The same devs who told him Ps5 is more powerful?

It's easier to develop for Series X and Series S than to develop for Series X and Ps5
Series X can't do anything Series S can't or vice versa. Just better or worse.

 

[Fun Fanboy]

$599, and ridge racer

Add Battle Arena Toshiden and Jumping Flash... AND I'M THERE!