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[User 73706]

So, after the resounding clusterfuck that was the original last year, I thought I'd start this thread up again since it's been a while and we may have some new games to pull from. With the push for equal and well-researched representation in gaming, from sex to nationality to gender to orientation, there's been a lot of discussion on the subject online, particularly on GAF. This thread's primary purpose is to find examples highlighting the prevalence of the hetereonormative - the cishet, straight white male, usually buzzcut and militaristic, or "dudebro" - but with examples that actually use context in their games to justify their circumstances, whether those are ethnic, regional, etc. While the last thread took a little bit to unify some actual qualifications, this time around I'm broadening the possible spectrum of answers: this time it's not just about protagonists, it's about characters in general. What we're looking for here are characters that have an actual purpose to their majority representation. When I say purpose, I'm talking about a character whose whiteness, or straightness, or however specific you want to get actually has bearings on the plot or mechanics in a way that other cultures would not.

Couple of very important details to consider here:

Explain and / or justify your case on a character-by-character basis. One at a time, that is. Stick to specific characters - if you want to explain your reasoning on why you think Doomguy or Cryguy or Calladuty Corpsman #239 are acceptable, that's totally fine. Don't just say "it's understandable that most protagonists are hetereonormative because infantrymen have buzzed hair and are mostly white," because that's not justifying a single character, it's band-aiding a recurring trope. On a broader note...

Discuss the games, not the developers. More specifically, don't drive-by post "it's just my opinion, and i'm not a racist or anything, but i really don't see why it's a problem that most protagonists are white males, it's just how it is." Likewise to "most game developers are white males, they write what they know." And, finally...

Keep an open mind. This also isn't the place to say "I can relate to white males better." All balanced humans are capable of empathy. While you may not be able to relate to CJ because you're not about that life, you can still understand concepts such as loss, grief, and things getting away from you (like damn trains). While you may not understand why wizard is sad because he need food badly and why he doesn't just conjure up some food, you can still relate to him because you've probably been hungry at some point in your life.

Now, to establish some reasoning behind possible choices:

There's not a fine line between "good white" and "white good." As a whole, someone like Marcus Fenix or whoever's headlining the next Call of Duty title are bad examples because you could change their race and no difference would be made. Now that examples are beginning to become more codified, examples of "white characters who are good, but contextually justify themselves" can fall into two major categories:

A character is wholesome or good, and being (or not being) a white male would subject them to different repercussions in-universe. Examples:

- BJ Blazkowicz has an emotional crutch in that his family is Jewish and is being directly targeted by Nazis.

- John Marston, on the flip side, is white in an era where not being white is a dangerous game. However, Marston is progressive and is overall still a good character from the viewer's perspective. A bad example would be Doomguy or Duke Nukem, because they could be virtually anyone going through a testosterone-poisoned power fantasy and it wouldn't change the game.

- Adding to this, keep in mind a variety of game universes barely even touch the ideas of human-on-human prejudice or are pretty clearly established as being "post-racial." There's too many opportunities for "black and white to gang up on green," where the idea of a cultural majority is dissolved in favor of having racial politics focusing on, well, races (species). A character like Samus is a good example of a post-racial character, but a bad example for this thread. Clearly white, albeit raised by bird-people, there's nothing about Samus's circumstances - or the universe's, for that matter - that would make her story much different if she were Latino or gay. It's very much focused on the machinations between races and factions, in particular the Galactic Federation and the Space Pirates.

A character has unique or otherwise breakout design, from looks to personality, and defies their expected genericism. They are, in some way(s), flawed. Examples:

- Michael De Santa, while old, white and gun-toting is still interesting because he has downsides and from a legal perspective is still a piece of shit. Consider his circumstances: washed-up guy who was pulling jobs before "the big accident" and had enough good connections to get himself holed up in none other than scenic Vinewood. That, coupled with his age, makes it safe to say that his race is pretty important, e.g. a black character that got pulling jobs in the same universe probably wouldn't be so lucky as to get a slap on the wrist and cushy retirement witness protection.

- Likewise, Max Payne is more of a subversion because while the actual character design starts off as being pretty homogenous, he's battling plenty of demons from taking so many people out and his age is catching up with him. Max Payne 3 also capitalizes on this, expanded on below.

- Even Professor Layton works (as one of the weaker examples) thanks to the setting: he's a stereotypical English gentleman.

- A bad example would be Aiden Pearce, because while he's still admist a conflict as the plot demands, he's still falling victim to not really pushing the envelope from a design or narrative perspective and is, overall, pretty one-dimensional.

- A good place to consider the line's midpoint - blurred, rather - would be Kratos. Known for getting as dudebro as they get, he does have a foothold in that he's Greek, originally a Spartan captain, and his mission of wiping out a caricature of a parthenon is explicitly due to his Greekness. Bonus points for the developers clearly wanting to establish his character and not simply be a "blank slate," like Master Chief originally was.

Here's some examples, just in case we're still not on the same page:

Max Payne is an excellent example. While his beginnings were fairly homogenous, as aforementioned, by Max Payne 3 his whiteness is actually used for juxtaposition, further compounding the fact that he's the foreigner now. From the prior thread:

While he could ostensibly be the poster boy for the standard white, bald, male action hero/power fantasy, I see him as more of a subversion.

He's old, he's fat, he whines about everything, he's battling all kinds of addictions, is utterly self-absorbed and suffers from a bad case of the PTSD from murdering so many people over the course of three games. You don't look up to this guy. He's not a hero in any real sense, he's a charity case with a bad haircut and an even worse temper.

The game made me feel uncomfortable. His interactions with the locals, like just stumbling through that street party, the bar scene, the "I don't speak your fucking language" line. Rockstar crafts these awesome mechanics, makes Max stick out like a blazing white sore thumb, and then has you decimate poor people: stereotyped Italians too, of course. I felt they did it on purpose and the effect would have been lost had Max not been white.

John Marston is probably one of the examples with the strongest ties to the racial element of it all. An adult in the early 1900s roaming the American frontier, he lives in a time period where being anything other than a white guy is bad news. While the player can make some... objectionable decisions for him, like tying women to railroad tracks, the plot-relevant escapades of which he partakes are all about politics - federal encroachment, gang violence - and aren't ever explicitly tied to the nationalities behind those ideals. Marston himself is a fairly progressive guy for the 1900s, with some good points made by posters in the last thread.

The epitome of family, duty, and honor in the 19th century American West. Highly progressive in his views on slavery, love, and snake oil salesman (and necrophilia, for that matter), Marston was far more intelligent than his criminal history might suggest.

Although he is a man of few words, he personified the stoic listener; taking in everything and doing what he deemed was right for himself, his nation, and his family.

Sure he had his yeehaw moments, but Rockstar created a highly memorable character in Marston.

I would someday like to see R* cross universes and have the Marston bloodline present in a future GTA game.

To continue with my choice with Marston...you couldn't have had another nationality with similar characteristics to Marston in a game like RDR. Considering the time period, Marston needed to be white in order for his character to be worth a damn in that time period in America. Even then he was hated by a lot of people because of his prior connections, but his sense of honor and duty would not have been as impactful if he were any other race in that time period.

Jorge-052 is a bit of a lighter example. Not in the sense that he isn't a good character, just that the actual context behind his circumstances aren't pushed to the forefront of the game's plot. I thought I would throw this one in for two reasons: to get blood flowing on the non-playable character examples (since the last thread had none), and to illustrate that, while rare, you can make individual ethnicities stand out even if your game is on as broad a scale as man versus alien. To expand on this, Jorge comes from Bungie's last Halo title, Halo Reach. The game revolves primarily around a Spartan-III named Noble Six, another blank-slate character along the lines of the Master Chief. Jorge was born on the eponymous planet Reach and considered it his home, with its colonists having a primarily Hungarian background.

Some of his squadmates have more obvious heritage: the fairly homogenous Noble Six is of Western influence and Emile has a similarly rudimentary background, albeit obfuscated by him "becoming the mask." On the flip side, Jun and Kat have decidedly Eastern influences, and ones that are much more ambiguously "500 years of cultural melting pot" than the others. The reason Jorge's heritage comes into play here is because Reach is a character all its own, defined by the landscapes and the war for which it's waged. The Covenant don't have a beef with any particular human nationality - bringing down Reach is of strategic importance, not cultural motivation - but Jorge just barely fits the bill by being a white character whose race makes his experience with the fall of Reach all the more tragic. Jorge is largely seen as the most sympathetic character of Noble Team, essentially being the team dad, looking out for his squadmates overall. His heritage also clearly comes into play throughout the story, which is something that hasn't been seen in the games very often; Sergeant Johnson had his heritage (being born in Chicago) expanded on in a novel in the EU, but nothing comes close to Jorge's presentation in terms of actual gameplay. He speaks Hungarian a few times throughout the campaign, such as "a nivem Jorge" ("my name is Jorge") when comforting a civilian and "Megszakad a szivem..." ("My heart breaks...") when seeing his planet being bombarded from high orbit. This example is particularly interesting because Halo has largely been set in a "post-racial" universe; for humans, anyway.

The Jorge example also throws a little alien into the mix of this thread, which is something that wasn't touched on in the last one. While the examples probably won't be too commonplace, if there are characters contextually justified in sci-fi / fantasy titles where humans aren't the only ones around, by all means, include them.

Now, finally, here are some things not to post:

- Characters that are white, that just happen to also be good characters. This is about their culture actually defining them to an extent. Even if it's a franchise where a difference between white characters and nonwhite characters is established, e.g. The Legend of Zelda with the Hylians and the Gerudo, those would not be good examples because Link's Hylian background doesn't have explicit bearings on the plot the way Max Payne's does. The conflict between Ganondorf and Hyrule is generally based around power, not race. Likewise, someone like Nathan Drake is a bad example because he could be an adventure of virtually any other sex, nationality or orientation and it wouldn't affect the overall plot in the slightest.

- "Why does a character's race, gender, or sexual orientation have to be 'justified?'" It doesn't have to be - modern game design is evidence of that - but this thread is to particularly discuss hetereonormative characters that do justify themselves. The reason being is that, 9 times out of 10, if a character isn't white, male and straight, it does have to have an explanation. JC of GTA:SA had to be black: not to live the lifestyle was living, but to be reacted to in the way he was, in-universe and out. When GTA:SA media first started pouring out, there were all sorts of people saying it would "never sell," they "couldn't relate," etc. You don't get that a whole lot of the time with homogenous characters. And even when a white character is doing something ostensibly awful, like the protagonist in Hatred, there isn't just criticism - there's controversy. While Hatred's original media was being met with cynicism, there were just as many coming out to defend it with "games as art," "don't tread on me," etc. You can see where the divide lay.

- Why does it have to be white males? Can't we just talk about decent characterization in games in general? I don't doubt that GAF can, but this thread in particular is to discuss this particular topic. If you find yourself wanting to discuss good characterization in general while reading this thread, start a new thread and I'm sure there will be plenty of good discussion to follow in it.

- To be honest, I can't really fathom a white male done 'wrong'. In this case, a white male done "wrong" would be one that doesn't actually justify their circumstances via heritage or culture, e.g. Marcus Fenix, Nathan Drake, etc. Of course that doesn't automatically make them "wrong" characters, it just means they're inappropriate for this discussion.

- I don't really understand the topic, if we're interested in having more diverse characters in order to send positive messages to minority players, isn't suggesting that white males are "generic" and boring by default just sending NEGATIVE messages to white male players, which is the exact opposite goal of diversifying? This is not a thread to unashamedly bash white male characters or white males in general. It's one to celebrate those that have made the effort to ground themselves just as effectively as the fellow minority characters that did so before them. Hetereonormative characters being the "default" protagonist is in and of itself worth discussing in this thread.

- It's not about race, it's just business. (post linked is discussing that point, not supporting it) Trying to excuse it as a "harmless business practice" ultimately just goes to further institutionalized bottlenecks that make it more difficult to get diverse characters in the limelight. When was the last time you heard someone in gaming be called the "token white guy" or "token straight guy?"

 

[JDSN]

Yep, I keep hearing that black or gay people need to have their blackness of gayness explained on the plot, I need to know why some white protagonists need to be white for a change.

Allan Wake is mostly based on stuff like Twin Peaks and Secret Window, Secret Garden, with the character itself based on Stephen King and the region being in Maine, which is like 95% white. Plus that stupid hoodie coat...

 

[Angelus Errare]

Hey hey hey, lay off the coat hoodies. It's a staple of web designers, developers and other nerds in computer related fields!

 

[Blobbers]

There was a discussion about this in other threads, but it seems like the Order 1886 crew fits OPs criteria. An all-white cast makes sense, based on the time and setting of the game.

 

[Wazgrel]

Wow lol, you people have way too much time on your hands.

 

[User 73706]

Wow lol, you people have way too much time on your hands.

There was a discussion about this in other threads, but it seems like the Order 1886 crew fits OPs criteria. An all-white cast makes sense, based on the time and setting of the game.

It's funny that you mention this, because GAF actually had a topic on it a couple of months ago. The Order's actually been criticized a fair bit on here for having an almost entirely white cast, in spite of there being so many other fantasy elements at play like half-breed mutant enemies, better technological advances including electrical weapons and thermal imaging, etc. I personally think that if a game like The Order goes out of its way to establish itself as having an alternative history like that, there's really nothing stopping them from including more diversity along the way somewhere in the game's backstory. It's just bizarre to me that people won't bat an eyelash seeing werewolves, tesla coil crossbows and neo-zeppelins, but will immediately question the inclusion of, say, a black Knight.

EDIT: Not to mention people of color did actually live in Victorian England.

 

[JDSN]

Wow lol, you people have way too much time on your hands.

I see a bright future for you.

 

[Winterfang]

Let's see if I understand the thread well. You mean games where the stereotypical athletic, white, buzz cut male is the game character and we will post examples on the games that couldn't be done with any other protagonist right?

Does this apply to every white main character (niko from GTA4, Guy toothbrush from monkey Island) or just the action action white guy (Snake, commander Shepard)?

Seems like an interesting thread idea.

 

[hotnheavyload]

EDIT: Not to mention people of color did actually live in Victorian England.

Most immigrants were Jews, Eastern Europeans and the Irish. They moved straight to the rookeries of East London, basically living in 3rd world conditions with absolutely no representation in British society.

I'm not so sure there was much immigration from Africa or the West Indies at this point in time.

 

[Screaming Meat]

While he could ostensibly be the poster boy for the standard white, bald, male action hero/power fantasy, I see Max Payne as... more... of... aaaaah goddammit, Sub-Zero, now I have to think of another one!

 

[Famassu]

Wow lol, you people have way too much time on your hands.

Someone could argue the same of a person posting as inane comment as yours. Not only do you have too much time on your hands, you aren't even doing anything remotely worthwhile with it other than shit-posting.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Fucking awesome thread OP, congratulations on the very reasonable thoughts given to it.

The Max Payne example is terrific, I actually like how much the character design changes from game to game, it adapts to the overall tone of the game and it feels great.

 

[Night Angel]

It's funny that you mention this, because GAF actually had a topic on it a couple of months ago. The Order's actually been criticized a fair bit on here for having an almost entirely white cast, in spite of there being so many other fantasy elements at play like half-breed mutant enemies, better technological advances including electrical weapons and thermal imaging, etc. I personally think that if a game like The Order goes out of its way to establish itself as having an alternative history like that, there's really nothing stopping them from including more diversity along the way somewhere in the game's backstory. It's just bizarre to me that people won't bat an eyelash seeing werewolves, tesla coil crossbows and neo-zeppelins, but will immediately question the inclusion of, say, a black Knight.

EDIT: Not to mention people of color did actually live in Victorian England.

Well, assuming the Order is actually the (group in spoiler)

Spoiler

immortal knights of the round

, I would say it makes perfect sense for them to be white with no other explanation, given the races of the people involved in that group.

Great thread, OP. Hopefully we can avoid the arguing/name calling that these threads often devolve into.

 

[tokkun]

There is a trend in the fantasy genre to try to address themes of racism by directing them against other groups that do not bring the same sort of real-world unconscious bias into play for the player. For instance, both Dragon Age and The Witcher do this with elves. Their Anglo, Western-European look and manner of speech is what makes it a subversive metaphor; if they were dark-skinned, the point might be taken as too literal.

(There is an argument to be made - particularly with The Witcher - that from a European vantage that they could be referencing antisemitism or the more modern discrimination against the Roma, but the idea is the same.)

 

[orthodoxy1095]

It's funny that you mention this, because GAF actually had a topic on it a couple of months ago. The Order's actually been criticized a fair bit on here for having an almost entirely white cast, in spite of there being so many other fantasy elements at play like half-breed mutant enemies, better technological advances including electrical weapons and thermal imaging, etc. I personally think that if a game like The Order goes out of its way to establish itself as having an alternative history like that, there's really nothing stopping them from including more diversity along the way somewhere in the game's backstory. It's just bizarre to me that people won't bat an eyelash seeing werewolves, tesla coil crossbows and neo-zeppelins, but will immediately question the inclusion of, say, a black Knight.

EDIT: Not to mention people of color did actually live in Victorian England.

Hearkening back to this thread, I still disagree that just because you're doing alternate/fantasy history doesn't mean you throw out the realities of the an era. If I do alternate history of mid-18th century America and throw in zombies, it wouldn't make sense (to me) to whitewash history and ignore issues of racial prejudice and racial marginalization. I don't think there's a question that people of color lived in Victorian England. The question would be to ask what is the best way to portray them and do justice to their characters.

But that's actually getting into a different topic. I don't think the all-white cast is terribly unjustified. Perhaps less diverse and not what we want, but I don't think it's absolutely ridiculous. That said, it's not really a good example of what this thread is talking about. Max Payne is my favorite example so far.

Wow lol, you people have way too much time on your hands.

Come on. Don't do this.

 

[Africanus]

Wow lol, you people have way too much time on your hands.

In between the hundred page amiibo thread, and the media create thread, you choose to comment on this one.
I question your motives good sir.

 

[zeldablue]

Link and Tatl from Majora's Mask.

They had to be "white" to contrast Skullkid and Tael. Since Majora's Mask is all about identity and the many subtle forms of prejudice, it was important to make both Tatl and Link slightly racist and cynical towards others until they learn the main lessons of the game. The characters are suppose to go from seeing everything in black and white, to seeing things more grey after gaining more perspective in life.

When Tatl starts talking about how Skullkid didn't "know his place" it kind of makes you realize that the "good guys" aren't really that good and the "bad guys" aren't really that bad. After all, they both lie and steal constantly. The good guys are just better at getting away with it.

The good guys are in denial about most problems. They have to lie constantly to mask any and all forms of discomfort. They want to keep peace by keeping everyone blissfully ignorant. "If no one brings it up, then everything is okay!" While the bad guys are basically having ridiculous temper tantrum problems due to social neglect and dehumanization.

Basically meaning, the good guys are okay with fake happiness and fake peace, while the bad guys are desperate for some form of genuine acknowledgment and thus stoop to violence.

It's fantasy racism...but it still works, I think. Skullkid initially had blackface. Good going Nintendo. :V

 

[User 73706]

Link and Tatl from Majora's Mask.

They had to be "white" to contrast Skullkid and Tael. Since Majora's Mask is all about identity and the many subtle forms of prejudice, it was important to make both Tatl and Link slightly racist and cynical towards others until they learn the main lessons of the game. The characters are suppose to go from seeing everything in black and white, to seeing things more grey after gaining more perspective in life.

When Tatl starts talking about how Skullkid didn't "know his place" it kind of makes you realize that the "good guys" aren't really that good and the "bad guys" aren't really that bad. After all, they both lie and steal constantly. The good guys are just better at getting away with it.

The good guys are in denial about most problems. They have to lie constantly to mask any and all forms of discomfort. They want to keep peace by keeping everyone blissfully ignorant. "If no one brings it up, then everything is okay!" While the bad guys are basically having ridiculous temper tantrum problems due to social neglect and dehumanization.

Basically meaning, the good guys are okay with fake happiness and fake peace, while the bad guys are desperate for some form of genuine acknowledgment and thus stoop to violence.

It's fantasy racism...but it still works, I think. Skullkid initially had blackface. Good going Nintendo. :V

I was hoping this one would come up. I knew there was an example of "institutionalized" racism in one of the older Zelda titles, but I don't have a whole lot of experience with them, so thanks for clarifying. I'm glad it surfaced, because it's a great example - I mainly just wanted to avoid "link vs ganon" examples.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Link and Tatl from Majora's Mask.

They had to be "white" to contrast Skullkid and Tael. Since Majora's Mask is all about identity and the many subtle forms of prejudice, it was important to make both Tatl and Link slightly racist and cynical towards others until they learn the main lessons of the game. The characters are suppose to go from seeing everything in black and white, to seeing things more grey after gaining more perspective in life.

When Tatl starts talking about how Skullkid didn't "know his place" it kind of makes you realize that the "good guys" aren't really that good and the "bad guys" aren't really that bad. After all, they both lie and steal constantly. The good guys are just better at getting away with it.

The good guys are in denial about most problems. They have to lie constantly to mask any and all forms of discomfort. They want to keep peace by keeping everyone blissfully ignorant. "If no one brings it up, then everything is okay!" While the bad guys are basically having ridiculous temper tantrum problems due to social neglect and dehumanization.

Basically meaning, the good guys are okay with fake happiness and fake peace, while the bad guys are desperate for some form of genuine acknowledgment and thus stoop to violence.

It's fantasy racism...but it still works, I think. Skullkid initially had blackface. Good going Nintendo. :V

Would the Gerudos in OOT, also count? Because a plot point is that Link is an outsider to them, and as such would need to be recognized as such, and the furthest thing from a Gerudo in this time period would be a Hylian boy, both in looks and in standing. Plus in say wind waker, he really can't be a Gerudo, because it is assumed that they're all gone, which adds an emotional element to Ganon's backstory. Likewise, Link is based around Disney's Peter Pan, which is set in london in 1900. Peter Pan is also the basis, of the Kokiri and the fairies that Kokiri obtain, but I'm not sure if that means anything.

Oh and almost every Zelda game, uses the concept of "living up to legend" and they show this by having depictions of past heroes (also Link) be present and sometimes modified to look like Link in that particular game, as a means of both paying homage to a past Zelda game, and metaphorically foreshadowing Link's future by having a image that he "lives up to."

I'm not sure if any of this counts though, as the premise of the thread is a little confusing.

Edit: Please correct me if I'm wrong thread, as like I said, I'm not 100% sure where the line has to be drawn in regards to determining if a character is a fit to this description or is not.

 

[PBalfredo]

It's funny that you mention this, because GAF actually had a topic on it a couple of months ago. The Order's actually been criticized a fair bit on here for having an almost entirely white cast, in spite of there being so many other fantasy elements at play like half-breed mutant enemies, better technological advances including electrical weapons and thermal imaging, etc. I personally think that if a game like The Order goes out of its way to establish itself as having an alternative history like that, there's really nothing stopping them from including more diversity along the way somewhere in the game's backstory. It's just bizarre to me that people won't bat an eyelash seeing werewolves, tesla coil crossbows and neo-zeppelins, but will immediately question the inclusion of, say, a black Knight.

EDIT: Not to mention people of color did actually live in Victorian England.

While it's fair enough to point out that people of color were not unheard of in Victorian England (though still a minority and generally of low social class), I don't buy that having fantasy elements means that anything's on the table, even if they're incongruousness with the setting. Victorian England is already a setting synonymous with strict social hierarchies and expectations, and tesla cannons and werewolves don't do anything to change that. Yes, strictly speaking there is nothing stopping the developers from imagining a more liberal and egalitarian Victorian England, but that has less to do with the fact it features steampunk airships and more with modern audiences simply being uncomfortable with racial aspects of the real Victorian England.

Back to the original topic of this thread, I feel that Bioshock Infinite justifies Booker being who he is very well.

Firstly, being a white guy allows Booker to blend into Columbia society in the early sections of the game before everything starts popping off. But more importantly, given that (major late game spoilers)

Spoiler

Comstock is Booker from an alternate reality, it's important that Booker is a white former-US cavalryman because that later plays into Comstock's ideas of racial superiority, and Comstock's ideas of white and American exceptionalism are completely ingrained in Columbia's identity. Bioshock Infinite simply wouldn't be the same game if Booker was anyone but who he is.

 

[Pound_lb003]

I don't wanna be a debbie downer, but Max Payne in MP3 is the only example I've liked - given that it's subverting the white-male hero as the OP states. I actually love that. The only effective anti-hero I played in a game last generation. And the idea that any game's white straight male hero is justifiable, is just kinda stupid. It's just more white protagonists. And I mean it's specifically because HE sticks out in the setting of the game. He is the gringo. He is the minority. That's good.

Even Marston; and I love Red Dead, but the idea the West wasn't a multicultural land, with room for many nationalities to thrive on is utter bullshit. He may have struggled as an African or an Asian to fit into what little racist civilisation there was, but if you could shoot someone faster than they could shoot you, and had the sense of adventure Marston had, you'd get on just fine.

I am looking through my collection of games, and I can't really see an example of a justified white-male protagonist.

 

[Ran rp]

I see a bright future for you.

Just the way they like it.

 

[zeldablue]

Would the Gerudos in OOT, also count? Because a plot point is that Link is an outsider to them, and as such would need to be recognized as such, and the furthest thing from a Gerudo in this time period would be a Hylian boy, both in looks and in standing. Plus in say wind waker, he really can't be a Gerudo, because it is assumed that they're all gone, which adds an emotional element to Ganon's backstory. Likewise, Link is based around Disney's Peter Pan, which is set in london in 1900. Peter Pan is also the basis, of the Kokiri and the fairies that Kokiri obtain, but I'm not sure if that means anything.

Oh and almost every Zelda game, uses the concept of "living up to legend" and they show this by having depictions of past heroes (also Link) be present and sometimes modified to look like Link in that particular game, as a means of both paying homage to a past Zelda game, and metaphorically foreshadowing Link's future by having a image that he "lives up to."

I'm not sure if any of this counts though, as the premise of the thread is a little confusing.

Edit: Please correct me if I'm wrong thread, as like I said, I'm not 100% sure where the line has to be drawn in regards to determining if a character is a fit to this description or is not.

Not sure how justifiable Link's race really is for the rest of the franchise. OoT does have a Crusader type plot though, with the evil Moorish desert people and all that.

Huh. o____o

 

[User 73706]

While it's fair enough to point out that people of color were not unheard of in Victorian England (though still a minority and generally of low social class), I don't buy that having fantasy elements means that anything's on the table, even if they're incongruousness with the setting. Victorian England is already a setting synonymous with strict social hierarchies and expectations, and tesla cannons and werewolves don't do anything to change that. Yes, strictly speaking there is nothing stopping the developers from imagining a more liberal and egalitarian Victorian England, but that has less to do with the fact it features steampunk airships and more with modern audiences simply being uncomfortable with racial aspects of the real Victorian England.

...they do, though. Like, if you're expecting a game about Victorian England, the first thing (or even the last) you're expecting probably isn't werewolves and war zeppelins. Honestly, if you threw in some more diverse characters, the conversation of:

"Wait, they have a black teammate? Wouldn't she be a servant or something?"
"Everyone's equal. Race doesn't factor in to how well you can shoot a werewolf."

Is a hell of a lot more open-and-shut than all of the baggage that's come with the discussions that have followed.

Oh and almost every Zelda game, uses the concept of "living up to legend" and they show this by having depictions of past heroes (also Link) be present and sometimes modified to look like Link in that particular game, as a means of both paying homage to a past Zelda game, and metaphorically foreshadowing Link's future by having a image that he "lives up to."

I would say I'd draw the line with this. For the sake of this particular thread, while there's two races at play here, there's nothing explicitly racially-charged going on in the general mythos of Link and whatnot being depicted in legends. Link himself could be female and Pacific Islander and the Gerudo made into Canadians and it would basically have the same ramifications. It doesn't help that some of the darker elements like this (going into exploring racial politics, like in Majora's Mask) have been downplayed pretty substantially in the later titles, with more of an emphasis being placed on fighting for power or dominion or vanquishing evil or what have you. These examples usually require a call-response dichotomy in-universe: that is, it's made clear X is happening because character is race A, and Y affects character because they're race B. While the racial element is there on the surface, it's more of an extension of the factions at play or good versus evil than anything outright racial. Now, if Ganon was being targeted because he was a Gerudo, or if Link would face issues in Hyrule if he were Gerudo (which, let's be serious, he probably wouldn't because he's prophesized to defeat evil), that'd be one thing, but ultimately I'm going to say the Majora's Mask example is the only Zelda-related one I've heard so far that would really apply within this thread. I hope I helped clear a bit of what I'm looking for up for you.

 

[thesaucetastic]

Great thread.

There is a trend in the fantasy genre to try to address themes of racism by directing them against other groups that do not bring the same sort of real-world unconscious bias into play for the player. For instance, both Dragon Age and The Witcher do this with elves. Their Anglo, Western-European look and manner of speech is what makes it a subversive metaphor; if they were dark-skinned, the point might be taken as too literal.

Yeah, this has been around for decades. Tales of Symphonia had it with half-elves, but obviously, as a Tales game, its approach to racism is anything but nuanced. I think Tales of Rebirth had something similar as well, though I haven't played it myself.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

...they do, though. Like, if you're expecting a game about Victorian England, the first thing (or even the last) you're expecting probably isn't werewolves and war zeppelins. Honestly, if you threw in some more diverse characters, the conversation of:

"Wait, they have a black teammate? Wouldn't she be a servant or something?"
"Everyone's equal. Race doesn't factor in to how well you can shoot a werewolf."

Is a hell of a lot more open-and-shut than all of the baggage that's come with the discussions that have followed.

I think this could have been done really well. That said, I still hesitate to think that a person's bigotry just flies out the window in the face of danger. Especially deep-seated bigotry like that of the Victorian Era. It's something I'd like to see devs be careful with. If some devs made some game about the USA and included Japanese-Americans, I'd feel a little bit weird about people just glancing over the racism that my family has dealt with. Whatever the case, I think in terms of diversity issues, The Order is the least of my worries.

 

[Corpekata]

Bioshock 1 and Infinite I'd say. Infinite more clearly given Jack in 1 is barely a character, but given both are connected to antagonists that have built city's based on time periods, people and ideologies largely led by white men, I'd say it fits. Don't remember enough about 2 to comment.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

It's funny that you mention this, because GAF actually had a topic on it a couple of months ago. The Order's actually been criticized a fair bit on here for having an almost entirely white cast, in spite of there being so many other fantasy elements at play like half-breed mutant enemies, better technological advances including electrical weapons and thermal imaging, etc. I personally think that if a game like The Order goes out of its way to establish itself as having an alternative history like that, there's really nothing stopping them from including more diversity along the way somewhere in the game's backstory. It's just bizarre to me that people won't bat an eyelash seeing werewolves, tesla coil crossbows and neo-zeppelins, but will immediately question the inclusion of, say, a black Knight.

EDIT: Not to mention people of color did actually live in Victorian England.

Hell, use the British empire within the context of said world, say that the English order has requested the help of the Indian Order or the African Order, bring in some "expert" on this said thing blah blah blah.

 

[Tapejara]

I'm curious, can we discuss characters in RPGs? I was thinking that Michael Thorton of Alpha Protocal could be justified as being a straight, white male due to the game being an homage to spy films/literature. However, because he's the player controlled character and the player can choose to tackle combat, conversation and certain situations with different methods and outcomes, it's a bit more difficult to pin down personality traits.

I've been meaning to replay the game, so if I'm able to find the time I'd love to talk about Thorton in more detail.

Bioshock 1 and Infinite I'd say. Infinite more clearly given Jack in 1 is barely a character, but given both are connected to antagonists that have built city's based on time periods, people and ideologies largely led by white men, I'd say it fits. Don't remember enough about 2 to comment.

I'm not sure if the main character of BioShock 2 is ever established as being white. Spending most of the game in a Big Daddy suit made it difficult to remember lol. That said, the game seemed to be more about the father-daughter relationship between the main character and the Little Sister, rather than any social or political themes that were established in the first game.

 

[Jawbreaker]

Wow lol, you people have way too much time on your hands.

Can you pin-point the feeling you had which led you to the decision that it'd be productive to make this comment? Do you feel there's no merit to such threads, or that it is ultimately a waste of time to talk about it? If so, why? Perhaps it's just a knee-jerk reaction and you haven't put much thought into it, but it's hard to tell unless you expand a bit.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

I actually think Kratos's "whiteness" is pretty borderline - he's voiced by a black guy and is racially ambiguous in appearance. We "know" he's "white" because he's Greek, but from looking at him and listening to him it's not clear at all that he's "supposed" to be white. I think he's an excellent example of a character who doesn't have to fit into the white/black binary that is a characteristic of modern America.

 

[User 73706]

I actually think Kratos's "whiteness" is pretty borderline - he's voiced by a black guy and is racially ambiguous in appearance. We "know" he's "white" because he's Greek, but from looking at him and listening to him it's not clear at all that he's "supposed" to be white. I think he's an excellent example of a character who doesn't have to fit into the white/black binary that is a characteristic of modern America.

That's part of why I specifically highlighted Kratos as being where the line starts blurring. Fun fact: Jorge's VA is also black, having voiced Dr. Endesha (from Halo 3 ODST'S audio logs) prior.

 

[Eidan]

Hm, it seems like you can easily find "context" to justify any protagonist being a straight white dude.

 

[Pinko Marx]

Hm, it seems like you can easily find "context" to justify any protagonist being a straight white dude.

Not really. Doomguy could be just about anything really. I don't know much of Uncharted's backstory but I'm willing to be Nathan Drake could be a Mexican dude and it wouldn't change the story very much.

 

[Two Words]

It's funny that you mention this, because GAF actually had a topic on it a couple of months ago. The Order's actually been criticized a fair bit on here for having an almost entirely white cast, in spite of there being so many other fantasy elements at play like half-breed mutant enemies, better technological advances including electrical weapons and thermal imaging, etc. I personally think that if a game like The Order goes out of its way to establish itself as having an alternative history like that, there's really nothing stopping them from including more diversity along the way somewhere in the game's backstory. It's just bizarre to me that people won't bat an eyelash seeing werewolves, tesla coil crossbows and neo-zeppelins, but will immediately question the inclusion of, say, a black Knight.

EDIT: Not to mention people of color did actually live in Victorian England.

I believe the Knights of The Order are actual descendants of Kig Aurthur's Knights of the Round Table. I imagine they want the newer generation characters to visually represent them.

 

[Eidan]

Not really. Doomguy could be just about anything really. I don't know much of Uncharted's backstory but I'm willing to be Nathan Drake could be a Mexican dude and it wouldn't change the story very much.

I guess I'm just not finding a lot of the examples so far to be all that convincing. I can easily see an Alan Wake, a Red Dead Redemption, or a Bioshock, starring a minority.

 

[RexNovis]

It's funny that you mention this, because GAF actually had a topic on it a couple of months ago. The Order's actually been criticized a fair bit on here for having an almost entirely white cast, in spite of there being so many other fantasy elements at play like half-breed mutant enemies, better technological advances including electrical weapons and thermal imaging, etc. I personally think that if a game like The Order goes out of its way to establish itself as having an alternative history like that, there's really nothing stopping them from including more diversity along the way somewhere in the game's backstory. It's just bizarre to me that people won't bat an eyelash seeing werewolves, tesla coil crossbows and neo-zeppelins, but will immediately question the inclusion of, say, a black Knight.

EDIT: Not to mention people of color did actually live in Victorian England.

Oh you mean like the Serbian scientist named Nikola Tesla they have making weapons and gadgets for them? Yes the cast is 90%+ white because that fits the time period. Even so they include a person of non caucasian descent. People really seem to have a hard on for hating on The Order.

 

[Shy]

i think the order could of easily had an ethnic team member. and they could of used that to comment on colonialism and the British empire, which was at it's height at the time.

but to say they couldn't of because the time period is bullshit.

 

[kyser73]

You could completely rewrite the backstory of The Order so that the British Empire doesn't exist, or was some kind of benevolent entity, and that The Order wasn't an ancient group of Knights attached to the ruling class in England (and given the presence of Lafayette, presumably it draws its pool from the European r/c also) and more a kind of open-entry, meritocratic group which drew from all corners of this benevolent vision of the Victorian British Empire. Which is a vision that in and of itself presents problems.

I'd argue than an Indian member of The Order wouldn't be historically jarring (many scions of the Indian ruling class attended UK public (private) schools like Eton and Rugby during the Raj and there were/are still ties between the two aristocracies), and that a black character from one of the African colonies (and that could be someone from Egypt to South Africa) who was a prominent rebel would be more a sociologically accurate portrayal of the most likely socioeconomic position of such a character in that period.

That's my tuppence on the subject anyway.

 

[Shy]

You could completely rewrite the backstory of The Order so that the British Empire doesn't exist, or was some kind of benevolent entity, and that The Order wasn't an ancient group of Knights attached to the ruling class in England (and given the presence of Lafayette, presumably it draws its pool from the European r/c also) and more a kind of open-entry, meritocratic group which drew from all corners of this benevolent vision of the Victorian British Empire. Which is a vision that in and of itself presents problems.

you wouldn't have to do that at all to have a person of colour in it.

 

[Pinko Marx]

I guess I'm just not finding a lot of the examples so far to be all that convincing. I can easily see an Alan Wake, a Red Dead Redemption, or a Bioshock, starring a minority.

Alan Wake I don't understand, but something like Bioshock: Infinite needed to star a white dude due to the setting, and the story Levine was trying to tell. If a black guy starred in B:I then it'd be about him trying to revolt against the classism in Columbia or something. Basically not the story that the game was trying to tell.

Or thats what I get from this thread at least.

 

[kyser73]

you wouldn't have to do that at all to have a person of colour in it.

Yeah, I had a think about it and updated my post.

 

[Corpekata]

Alan Wake I don't understand, but something like Bioshock: Infinite needed to star a white dude due to the setting, and the story Levine was trying to tell. If a black guy starred in B:I then it'd be about him trying to revolt against the classism in Columbia or something. Basically not the story that the game was trying to tell.

Or thats what I get from this thread at least.

Setting and plot really. Yes, you could

Spoiler

just make Jack not be Andrew Ryan's test tube baby, but that changes a lot about the plot. Infinite even more so. With these games it's more about the villain and the fact that you're playing someone biologically related to them. You can't really make Comstock non-white. Maybe some wiggle room with Ryan, but given the game is a takedown on early objectivism and the way it maintained the rich's status quo (which were historically largely white around that time), it would probably loose some oomph.

 

[hotnheavyload]

I guess I'm just not finding a lot of the examples so far to be all that convincing. I can easily see an Alan Wake, a Red Dead Redemption, or a Bioshock, starring a minority.

The problem of just inserting a minority in either RDR or Bioshock just for the sake of having a playable minority is that both of these games rely on history as the base foundations of the games narrative.

Objectivism (as proposed by Ayn Rand) is not racist in nature, but it goes without saying that as a city built for the world's elite in the 1960's at the bottom of the sea, Rapture isn't going to be the most racially diverse place in the world.

RDR is difficult, the game was a romanticised ode to the Western Cowboy, in which there have been indisputable figures of white, heterosexual male iconography for the past century. Yes they could've had a Black, Chinese or Hispanic protagonist, but you would have to have a lot of confidence in Rockstar dealing with the themes associated being a minority in rural America in 1911. You could argue that it could've been the exact same game with a minority as the protagonist, but what would the point be if we couldn't explore the culture or social commentary surrounding such a character.

I think having shallow representations of minorities isn't necessarily a good enough reason to insert in a game like RDR or Bioshock just "as is".

The colour of one's skin is not a reasonable representation of a minority. There's also an entire culture to consider. If a character is black, where are they from? If a character is Asian, where are they from? Are we just going to assume that every Black character in a video game is African-American? Does this not do a disservice to the rest of the world's Black population?

What about places where Blacks and Asians, for example, aren't a minority? You could argue they they're constantly playing games as a minority

Perhaps I'm just reading far into it and should accept a minority in either of these games at face value, but I'd much rather explore THEM as characters.

There are certainly games where the ethnicity or sexuality of a game character wouldn't matter at all, every CoD game ever made, for example. Infamous, Uncharted, Halo, Killzone, The Last of Us, Assassin's Creed, Battlefield, etc etc etc.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

It's hard for people to permit minorities in their fantasy when they'd rather not have them in their reality.

On topic, unless the game is supposed to be a reenactment of historical events without any fun stuff I don't see what games would require average demographic protagonists.

 

[Giever]

I don't know what the deal was with minorities working as police in places like L.A. in that time period, but L.A. Noire strikes me as having a potentially justified protagonist. I suspect there weren't many actual black detectives, at least, but I could easily be wrong.

From what I've played of it, the game really does try to be mostly true to the time period, so it would probably be odd if you played as someone that couldn't possibly have realistically had Cole's job in that time and place.

There's not, like, a brilliant narrative reason why Cole needs to be white, just that it fits with the historical setting of the game.

In regards to the Order discussion, I agree that they could easily introduce some black or otherwise non-white characters to the overall team, but then I don't really know much about the game. I don't think, however, that it's totally fair to paint people that think it's unfitting as being unreasonable, or suggesting that they don't want any black/brown/non-white people in their games.

If the game is pitched as "Victorian England with crazy technology and werewolves!" then you would naturally assume that that is all that's changed. And, at a certain point, once you change enough, there's little meaning or value in defining the setting as Victorian England.

Not that I'm suggesting that racism of the time is a valuable thing for them to depict, just that once you change one thing, then two things, then three, then four, then five, etc. at a certain point you just kind of think, "Okay, it's set in _______, but in what sense is it really?" I suspect that's the mindset some people have when they think that a predominately white cast in The Order is justifiable. But, like I said, I haven't really followed the game at all.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I sometimes find it difficult to differentiate between "the settings of the game actually make the all-white cast suitable" and "well they make the settings of the game in a certain way to ensure that only all-white cast is suitable."

 

[Giever]

I sometimes find it difficult to differentiate between "the settings of the game actually make the all-white cast suitable" and "well they make the settings of the game in a certain way to ensure that only all-white cast is suitable."

As far as I've been able to determine from my own ruminations, all you can really go on is the presumed intentions of the developers in question. Hopefully when there's generally better and more varied representation in games of all sorts there won't be much of a need to be concerned about making that distinction when the odd game with an all-white-cast pops up.

 

[Albinon]

"a white male done 'wrong' would be one that doesn't actually justify their circumstances via heritage or culture, e.g. Marcus Fenix"

"This is about their culture actually defining them to an extent."

Is this a case of "I don't know much about the setting, so I'm going to assume things" or is it a failure to see how Marcus being Gorasni, Kashkuri, Pesanga would be different than his Tyran background?

Or is this an application of real world "white culture" to a fictional setting that has it's own world history set up with no connection to our own? Because then that makes the use of Marcus as an example even more silly.

 

[karasu]

Most immigrants were Jews, Eastern Europeans and the Irish. They moved straight to the rookeries of East London, basically living in 3rd world conditions with absolutely no representation in British society.

I'm not so sure there was much immigration from Africa or the West Indies at this point in time.

There were so many black people in 16th century England, free ones, that Queen Elizabeth wanted to deport them all. It's estimated that in Victorian times there were twenty thousand in London alone. It's such a strange idea that a black european is an anomaly. There have been black people in Britain since ancient Rome.