-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Sherlock Series 4 |OT| - Did You Miss Me?
- Thread starter bodyofanamerican
- Start date
- Status
Spieler Eins
Member
What? Scandal in Belgravia is the show's peak.
Even a bad Sherlock ep is worth watching.
Too bad Anderson and Sally Donovan, at the new Scotland Yard with Lestrade, aren't in season 4, even just for a fun scene or two. Too busy in other shows and films, I suppose. Did you notice Anderson (Jonathan Aris) had a bit role in Star Wars Rogue One?
Too bad Anderson and Sally Donovan, at the new Scotland Yard with Lestrade, aren't in season 4, even just for a fun scene or two. Too busy in other shows and films, I suppose. Did you notice Anderson (Jonathan Aris) had a bit role in Star Wars Rogue One?
Yep he just kept going and going even when Mary tried to tell him to shut up.
Okay, I think everything that I could say already has been said. I rewatched it, and it...well, the premise worked a bit too well. Like Sherlock, we were expecting Moriarty to pop out of the shadows at any given point, and he...well, didn't. If this episode felt wierdly anticlimactic, it's because of that. Other series had some tangential connection (particularly Scandal in Belgravia, where Moriarty loomed as a presence and background mover).
And like usual, the "fuck yeah, mary died!" responses lack taste and decency. It's not a good response to have, regardless of how much you may have disliked a character, least of all because it doesn't mean she's really gone. Now she's probably going to haunt the rest of the season, at a minimum.
And I don't really approve of her being killed off for storytelling reasons. Mary was, imo, at her best when she was helping Sherlock and John solve mysteries as they went along. Not the throwaway mysteries we were shown in this episode, but stuff like the Sign of Three episode where she remembered details Sherlock and John forgot. Instead, they circled back on her past and ended her there. I mean, this is literally what Sherlock murdered Magnussen to bury, and literally the next episode (not counting the special), here it comes back and boom, just that like, she's gone? I...don't approve.
I wasn't a big fan of Mary in general, but there was clear room for growth and improvement, and I feel this death was premature. When you have a character that people aren't too hot on, the solution is almost never to kill them.
All. that said, this wasn't a pure fridging. I feel you can kind of see through the curtains and realize that the writers just wanted John free of her, but even though I disapprove of the idea, credit where it's due, they did Mary justice by exploring her story. She didn't just die to give John and Sherlock more issues, it's her own issues that returned to haunt her.
Other stuff was just weird. John cheating is as off as anything, since all indications were that they were happy. It makes me think kind of little of John if all it takes for him to break his long fought for vows is some baby trouble. And Sherlock being that careless...I mean, this has been something of a staple since the start, but you'd think by now he'd just learn to process what people thinking on an intellectual level if not an emotional/empathetic one. What did he think would happen if he continued to piss on the angry old woman with the gun? If there is a big flaw with Sherlock's character, it's this. The writers are highly selective on when Sherlock can read a person. Because he can do it, he's done it a thousand times before either to solve a case or else crack a joke, but the moment it becomes convienent for drama (or also to crack a joke), he's all "What are these hoo-mans thinking". It's just so transparent at this point.
Overall, not one of their best. Blueballing the audience with a bait and switch moriarty (and for god sakes, just bring him back you assholes, or else we're going to have Season 8 sherlock obsessing about the dreams he's having about Moriarty that moriarty undoubtedly subliminally planted within him), to a less interesting story about Mary which ends with a death that won't truly help the show and plenty of out of character moments inbetween.
And like usual, the "fuck yeah, mary died!" responses lack taste and decency. It's not a good response to have, regardless of how much you may have disliked a character, least of all because it doesn't mean she's really gone. Now she's probably going to haunt the rest of the season, at a minimum.
And I don't really approve of her being killed off for storytelling reasons. Mary was, imo, at her best when she was helping Sherlock and John solve mysteries as they went along. Not the throwaway mysteries we were shown in this episode, but stuff like the Sign of Three episode where she remembered details Sherlock and John forgot. Instead, they circled back on her past and ended her there. I mean, this is literally what Sherlock murdered Magnussen to bury, and literally the next episode (not counting the special), here it comes back and boom, just that like, she's gone? I...don't approve.
I wasn't a big fan of Mary in general, but there was clear room for growth and improvement, and I feel this death was premature. When you have a character that people aren't too hot on, the solution is almost never to kill them.
All. that said, this wasn't a pure fridging. I feel you can kind of see through the curtains and realize that the writers just wanted John free of her, but even though I disapprove of the idea, credit where it's due, they did Mary justice by exploring her story. She didn't just die to give John and Sherlock more issues, it's her own issues that returned to haunt her.
Other stuff was just weird. John cheating is as off as anything, since all indications were that they were happy. It makes me think kind of little of John if all it takes for him to break his long fought for vows is some baby trouble. And Sherlock being that careless...I mean, this has been something of a staple since the start, but you'd think by now he'd just learn to process what people thinking on an intellectual level if not an emotional/empathetic one. What did he think would happen if he continued to piss on the angry old woman with the gun? If there is a big flaw with Sherlock's character, it's this. The writers are highly selective on when Sherlock can read a person. Because he can do it, he's done it a thousand times before either to solve a case or else crack a joke, but the moment it becomes convienent for drama (or also to crack a joke), he's all "What are these hoo-mans thinking". It's just so transparent at this point.
Overall, not one of their best. Blueballing the audience with a bait and switch moriarty (and for god sakes, just bring him back you assholes, or else we're going to have Season 8 sherlock obsessing about the dreams he's having about Moriarty that moriarty undoubtedly subliminally planted within him), to a less interesting story about Mary which ends with a death that won't truly help the show and plenty of out of character moments inbetween.
forgeforsaken
Member
The whole premise of the AGRA drive was super dumb. Why would you bring that on a mission?
OK, you know what, I'll be dead honest with all of you: I liked Mary.
I hated that she was a fucking spy in her past, but I liked the energy that she brought to the show. I loved the wedding episode. I loved where she fit in the Sherlock/Watson dynamic, not taking Sherlock's shit and calling out Watson when he's being a little bitch. There are ways for this character to have worked. She didn't have to be a secret spy, and if she was, we didn't need to see her past catching up to her. Her past is dumb and should have been left in the background.
I thought her death was unnecessary. Why couldn't she have just been on the show as a regular who didn't have stupid spy bullshit? The actress was fantastic and had so much chemistry with Freeman. Her presence on the show was welcome in my eyes. They just dropped the ball in so many key ways that I'm actually mad.
But despite all that, all of it, I would have preferred if she stayed on the show. The way she died was dumb too, with Sherlock goading a sad old lady into shooting at him. Even in her death though, Mary reminded me why I liked her.
I hated that she was a fucking spy in her past, but I liked the energy that she brought to the show. I loved the wedding episode. I loved where she fit in the Sherlock/Watson dynamic, not taking Sherlock's shit and calling out Watson when he's being a little bitch. There are ways for this character to have worked. She didn't have to be a secret spy, and if she was, we didn't need to see her past catching up to her. Her past is dumb and should have been left in the background.
I thought her death was unnecessary. Why couldn't she have just been on the show as a regular who didn't have stupid spy bullshit? The actress was fantastic and had so much chemistry with Freeman. Her presence on the show was welcome in my eyes. They just dropped the ball in so many key ways that I'm actually mad.
But despite all that, all of it, I would have preferred if she stayed on the show. The way she died was dumb too, with Sherlock goading a sad old lady into shooting at him. Even in her death though, Mary reminded me why I liked her.
tearsintherain
Member
Wow that was an awful episode, hope the next two are better. Everything feels so different from season 1 Sherlock, from the actors to the aesthetics to the story pacing. Yeah, characters change and that can be good but this was just a terrible, terrible episode.
Auron_Kale
Member
Wut... Scandal is my absolute favorite episode and I think it's still the best episode of all the previous three seasons... But it's your opinion.
I love Sally and miss her greatly. She was great during the "Lestrade the Movie" portion during TSoT, but I loved her skepticism during TGG.
Genius needs an audience.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
That was a great episode, I'm sad that mary died but I think she kind of had to. She was causing a weird dynamic to form that was potentially overpowering the show. Where it's obvious that her skill set was good enough to overshadow john as the obvious right hand of Holmes. Also the whole time she was dying I kept feeling like that was a very survivable wound. It likely hit her in the gut, missing her lungs, heart and she still had control of her body so it clearly missed her spine.
If anything about the episode was weak it was the fact that the viivan reveal kind of was a bit of a reach. Most of these mysteries are solvable along with sherlock if you're looking out for things as the episode moves a long, but this one had a few too many out of left field moments, which while great at keeping the suspense going it sucked out the fun "make your own theory as you go" element of the show.
Still though, pretty great thrill and solid set up for next week. Sherlock clearly is at fault for Mary's death and he knows it, John is also probably dealing with the internal struggle that he kind of basically cheated on his now dead wife and she will never know that he was going to tell her so the character arcs have some cool possibilities. Though I do hope we get something more sherlock holmesy in addition to the inter-character drama.
If anything about the episode was weak it was the fact that the viivan reveal kind of was a bit of a reach. Most of these mysteries are solvable along with sherlock if you're looking out for things as the episode moves a long, but this one had a few too many out of left field moments, which while great at keeping the suspense going it sucked out the fun "make your own theory as you go" element of the show.
Still though, pretty great thrill and solid set up for next week. Sherlock clearly is at fault for Mary's death and he knows it, John is also probably dealing with the internal struggle that he kind of basically cheated on his now dead wife and she will never know that he was going to tell her so the character arcs have some cool possibilities. Though I do hope we get something more sherlock holmesy in addition to the inter-character drama.
matrixman92
Member
I liked the beginning part of the episode, then everything got weird and boring
Sevket-Erhat
Member
I will give it another watch but I really liked it
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
The more I think about it, the more this episode sucked.
My guess is we didn't see that entire part of the message where she say to go to hell and we will in one of the next two episodes, and it will make more sense.
Hey, it's not like they had a combat-trained physician right there who has a huge experience with the treatment of bullet wounds.
Sevket-Erhat
Member
I have a question
was it ever explained ?
When he asked the latin meaning of the world amo what did Sherlock come up with ?
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
That was a strange episode. It was especially bizarre that John, the combat medic, didn't try at all to save Mary.
I wish the show would just go back to being about Sherlock and Co. solving cases.
I wish the show would just go back to being about Sherlock and Co. solving cases.
ShironRedshift
Member
It was right before that, right?--when they were talking about conjugations of the Latin verb "to love." Thus, despite not knowing Latin myself, I just presumed that "amount" must be the word for "love" itself, which seems to fit with the way things resolved themselves.
...
I didn't hate the episode like most people here, but it was the opposite of A Scandal in Belgravia. Which is still my favorite episode, like of any show ever. The only part a bit reminiscent of it was the case of minister's son, which reminded me of the boomerang one in 2x01 (and in fact it was the best part of this episode).
.I think the whole point of this episode was to play with our expectations a little.
We expected a return immediately to the Moriarty business...we did not get that. The counsel Mycroft led was viewer proxy, the pointed questions about what Sherlock would do about Moriarty could have easily been seen in a speculation thread here.
We expected a return to the series norms, which we got in a condensed way in the case of the dead son and the car. That was glossed over and finished too quickly. It felt almost lazy.
The Mary story...I think has a place, but felt off mostly for the actress physicality and some awkwardness with props affecting believability. Watson "cheating" and the whole vow thing, I think, will be a large part of the next episode. He may have actually cheated, meaning he broke his vow to Mary...then there's the whole child to raise alone thing too.
The status quo has been upset, nothing is as it seems, and nothing seems to make the same sense as before. This is where the writers want us, and moving forward, I'd expect our best guesses to be off in more ways than usual.
We expected a return immediately to the Moriarty business...we did not get that. The counsel Mycroft led was viewer proxy, the pointed questions about what Sherlock would do about Moriarty could have easily been seen in a speculation thread here.
We expected a return to the series norms, which we got in a condensed way in the case of the dead son and the car. That was glossed over and finished too quickly. It felt almost lazy.
The Mary story...I think has a place, but felt off mostly for the actress physicality and some awkwardness with props affecting believability. Watson "cheating" and the whole vow thing, I think, will be a large part of the next episode. He may have actually cheated, meaning he broke his vow to Mary...then there's the whole child to raise alone thing too.
The status quo has been upset, nothing is as it seems, and nothing seems to make the same sense as before. This is where the writers want us, and moving forward, I'd expect our best guesses to be off in more ways than usual.
It's not clear to me what you asked and neither is the answer Shiron gave to you but
amo means "to love" in Latin and the Foreign Ops lady codename was Love as said in the beginning of the episode.
What bothers me is that in the Italian voiceover they made the twist painfully clear way early in the episode since "ammo" and "amo" (which is also the Italian word with the same meaning as the Latin one) are pronounced completely differently, i didn't make the connection with the lady but it spoiled immediately that it was all a misunderstanding of the word.
What bothers me is that in the Italian voiceover they made the twist painfully clear way early in the episode since "ammo" and "amo" (which is also the Italian word with the same meaning as the Latin one) are pronounced completely differently, i didn't make the connection with the lady but it spoiled immediately that it was all a misunderstanding of the word.
Something being hidden in one of the Thatcher busts was so fucking obvious from the first mention that I thought it HAD to be a double bluff. But it wasn't. It really was that obvious. That's not clever, that's just poor writing. Ditto with the secretary.
This show used to cleverly make the viewer think they'd solved a mystery, only to yank the rug away with a twist that was hidden in plain sight all the time. There was none of that here. It really was what you thought it was all along.
Jonathan Creek is a far superior puzzle mystery in every way. Even the clunky old SD 4:3 episodes at least kept you guessing until the very end.
I'm not sure what Sherlock is as a show any more. It seems to have lost its identity.
Oh well, at least Mary is dead, although she'll no doubt feature heavily in eps 2 & 3.
This show used to cleverly make the viewer think they'd solved a mystery, only to yank the rug away with a twist that was hidden in plain sight all the time. There was none of that here. It really was what you thought it was all along.
Jonathan Creek is a far superior puzzle mystery in every way. Even the clunky old SD 4:3 episodes at least kept you guessing until the very end.
I'm not sure what Sherlock is as a show any more. It seems to have lost its identity.
Oh well, at least Mary is dead, although she'll no doubt feature heavily in eps 2 & 3.
PayOffWizard
Member
Jonathan Creeks return was better. still enjoyed it though.
Sherlock is a show with constraints and boundaries.
When the show works within those constraints and when it ever so slightly nudges up against those boundaries you get some of the best TV you'll have seen in a long time. The cast, crew, mythology and mood all work together to make some really fantastic episodes.
When the show wanders outside of those boundaries you get the Baskevilles, you get the weird Chinese triad episode and now we have black ops Mary. What these have in common is that it tries to do too much, it tries to show you things that you didn't really need to see and they ruin the suspension of disbelief that you've been able to ease yourself into.
I don't need to see Mary Watson wearing a balaclava and holding an assault rifle to believe that she is a trained killer because the show has already eased me into that two years ago. Whatever misdeeds they end up showing aren't going to match up to the ones the audience has been led to believe in, much like how I don't need to see Moriarty dealing with terrorists to believe that he's up to no good.
It's a shame as between Rachel Talalay and Gatiss I'd figured this would have been a strong episode, what the hell happened?
When the show works within those constraints and when it ever so slightly nudges up against those boundaries you get some of the best TV you'll have seen in a long time. The cast, crew, mythology and mood all work together to make some really fantastic episodes.
When the show wanders outside of those boundaries you get the Baskevilles, you get the weird Chinese triad episode and now we have black ops Mary. What these have in common is that it tries to do too much, it tries to show you things that you didn't really need to see and they ruin the suspension of disbelief that you've been able to ease yourself into.
I don't need to see Mary Watson wearing a balaclava and holding an assault rifle to believe that she is a trained killer because the show has already eased me into that two years ago. Whatever misdeeds they end up showing aren't going to match up to the ones the audience has been led to believe in, much like how I don't need to see Moriarty dealing with terrorists to believe that he's up to no good.
It's a shame as between Rachel Talalay and Gatiss I'd figured this would have been a strong episode, what the hell happened?
Exactly, and this was obvious even if you weren't familiar with Conan Doyle. So where was the bluff to put the modern Sherlock twist on things? There was no playing with expectations here, just literal reimagining,
The twist was supposed to be the pen drive instead of the pearl.
Just that they twisted it into something worse than better.
I know, and it was hardly a twist because it was telegraphed so overtly. It's like this episode was dumbed down for idiots.
Not a lot made sense in this episode. Hopefully some of that will be addressed in the next couple of weeks.
Edit: Whoah. Search suggests there's never been a Jonathan Creek thread on GAF.
Spieler Eins
Member
I don't get Baskervilles hate.
It was suggested that the Black Pearl had been missing for a long-ass time, I don't know where you're getting recently stolen from.
Of course they did this. It's 'how did Holmes survive that fall?' all over again.
Germans. Everything is dubbed over there.
SpideySenses
Member
Awful stuff but I only have have myself to blame, outside of the Lars Mikkelsen episode, I haven't really enjoyed the show since season 2 which was 5 years ago. We're only on the eleventh episode, that means I'm reaching a point where I've disliked nearly as many as I've liked, that's the definition of glutton for punishment.
I actually made a promise to myself midway through the episode that if Mary wasn't written out, it would be my last episode, so they've had a slight reprieve to see if the show can rebound with her gone.
I actually made a promise to myself midway through the episode that if Mary wasn't written out, it would be my last episode, so they've had a slight reprieve to see if the show can rebound with her gone.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
For those wondering why Mary was so abruptly written out... I suspect it has a lot to do with her and Freeman splitting up.
well, that explains a lot.
Why would female Lestrade and the newspapers both be digging into a 6 year old case?
Everyone in countries where dubbing doesn't suck
- Status