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Sherlock Series 4 |OT| - Did You Miss Me?

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Jonnax

Member
It wasn't bad in my opinion.

But I think the show suffers from what made me drop Suits after I think around the first season.

That show was really interesting when it was about a person with no degree but amazing memory and ability pretending to be a lawyer in a fancy law firm.
The cases were interesting and the character dealing with being that imposter in a way.

Then it evolved into a drama about characters relationships where the original concept become more like window dressing.


Hopefully in the next two episodes there's a return to mystery solving. But I'm going to bet it'll be more angst.
 

Hermii

Member
Im feeling this show is more of a soap opera than a detective story. The episode startet off good with Sherlock being high in the top secret meeting then went down a cliff from there. I feel like I will have forgotten I watched this in a week.
 

Maximo

Member
Mary's death is going to be revealed to have been totally faked, right?

The death scene was so bad I thought it was all a ruse but doesn't seem like it, it was just bad.
This was the worst episode by far really has soured me on the whole thing
 

Flandy

Member
The death scene was so bad I thought it was all a ruse but doesn't seem like it, it was just bad.
This was the worst episode by far really has soured me on the whole thing
Same
I didn't actually think she was dying. I was in disbelief when she actually did
 
I liked it better when Sherlock wasn't trying to be some international spy tv show/Jason Bourne, i.e. the first two seasons. Have zero faith in this season after this episode. I thought the bride episode was a return to form. Shame.
 

SURGEdude

Member
Finally got around to watching it. Killing Mary was a nice touch but with episodes like this it's hard to get excited anymore.
 

Cronen

Member
Mark Gattis has responded to the article stating that 'Sherlock is slowly and perversely morphing into Bond', in the form of a poem.

Mark Gattis said:
Here is a critic who says with low blow
Sherlock’s no brain-box but become double-O.
Says the Baker St boy is no man of action –
whilst ignoring the stories that could have put him in traction.

The Solitary Cyclist sees boxing on show,
The Gloria Scott and The Sign of the Fo’
The Empty House too sees a mention, in time, of Mathews,
who knocked out poor Sherlock’s canine.

As for arts martial, there’s surely a clue
in the misspelled wrestle Doyle called baritsu.
In hurling Moriarty over the torrent
did Sherlock find violence strange and abhorrent?

In shooting down pygmies and Hounds from hell
Did Sherlock on Victorian niceties dwell?
When Gruner’s men got him was Holmes quite compliant
Or did he give good account for The Illustrious Client?

There’s no need to invoke in yarns that still thrill,
Her Majesty’s Secret Servant with licence to kill
From Rathbone through Brett to Cumberbatch dandy
With his fists Mr Holmes has always been handy.

Full link
 

Media

Member
I don't think anyone is saying there shouldn't be any action or fights, people just want to see Sherlock and Watson solve some mysteries again without stupid sideplots and emotional dramas

Personally, I enjoy the character development. What it seems most people here want is a really well filmed procedural? Which would suck to wait three years for three episodes.
 

UrbanRats

Member
Ok, glad i'm not the only one who thought Mary's death was a fart in the wind, laughable too.

Also, John faulting Sherlock for her death, when it was ENTIRELY her own doing, due to her past, is rich.
But i'll chalk it up to him being unreasonable due to grief.

Episode itself was.. eh.
 

Siegcram

Member
Personally, I enjoy the character development. What it seems most people here want is a really well filmed procedural? Which would suck to wait three years for three episodes.
If said characters were interesting and/or well written, I'd be inclined to agree. As is ...yeah I take the procedural, please.
 

Boem

Member
I don't think anyone is saying there shouldn't be any action or fights, people just want to see Sherlock and Watson solve some mysteries again without stupid sideplots and emotional dramas

As for the former: Gatiss's poem was a direct response to a specific Guardian review that complained about the show having too much action and Sherlock getting involved in that action (even though he also did in the books). As for the latter:

Personally, I enjoy the character development. What it seems most people here want is a really well filmed procedural? Which would suck to wait three years for three episodes.

If said characters were interesting and/or well written, I'd be inclined to agree. As is ...yeah I take the procedural, please.

I think many people are forgetting the deep, dark secret of the original Sherlock Holmes stories: the mysteries were never really that good. Fun and memorable? Sure. But they hung together by pure coincidence, needed impossible leaps of logic by Sherlock, and were more based on illogical guesswork rather than actual logic. The mysteries themselves were never the strong point (other works, even ones contemporary to Doyle's works, were far better at logically unfolding puzzle boxes), it was always about the characters. It was always about seeing Sherlock and Watson bounce off each other (and off the almost comic book-like villains and side characters), and about the weird butterfly effect-like elaborate plans and schemes of the villains. There was a lot of comedy in the over the top plans of both Sherlock and the bad guys, and the weird, coincidental deductions between the two.

I know this may sound blasphemous to some people, but really, go back and read the original stories. For some reason the Sherlock Holmes stories have this reputation of being about these genius-level mysteries were the reader is slowly given hints in order to solve the mysteries themselves, even though the actual stories (with a few rare exceptions) aren't structured that way at all. It was always way more pulpy than that. Fun, exciting, well-written (even, surprisingly, after all these years) and historically important pulp. but pulp nonetheless.

Of course, the style of storytelling in the relationship between Holmes and Watson is very different in those old books compared to a modern tv show, but that was always the core. I'll admit, I was never really a fan of Mary's spy background, but it's exactly the kind of ridiculous secret an original book character might have had, and the focus on how this affects SH and Watson is exactly what it needs to be. The modern version is more emotional, sure, but this is prestige television, and it has always been the core of the show since day one. Given how many Sherlock adaptions there are that do the procedural thing, I don't think it's a bad thing at all that this adaption puts its focus elsewhere, especially because it's a factor of the books that's often overlooked by people making adaptions. Switching to a more House/Elementary-like procedural adaption would be the wrong call here. Those shows already exist. Hundreds of them.

I don't like every episode of Sherlock, but I do think, for example, that especially episodes 2 and 3 of season 3 are modern TV classics, and often overlooked by the fans. This is still a very high quality show, and people wanting more of a standard procedural want something the show has never really been. Why create something that already exists, in excess even?

These are two of the most historically famous literary characters ever. Why not create a show about a Moore-like deep dive into what makes these larger-than-life characters tick and work in relation to each other? That always seemed the point of putting it in modern times to me - not just because you can do a joke about Watson writing on a blog instead of for the Strand, but because you can apply this post-modern approach to characters in this context. That's also the point on the overly stylistic direction of these episodes, and the sporadic release schedule. It's more nerdy/literary than many people may be interested in, but it's a unique authorial voice that's too often missing on tv. This should be celebrated more.

That's what I think at least. Not that people aren't free to dislike the show, but people are, I think, judging it for not being what it never even aimed for. They're simply watching the wrong Sherlock Holmes adaption I think. Judging the show for what it is trying to do leaves you walking away far more impressed.
 

hamchan

Member
An extra thing I'll say that I do every year in Doctor Who threads: Moffat sucks ass at answering cliffhangers and resolving season arcs. He's admittedly very good at building the mystery up and getting people taking about it but when it comes time to tying it all up he always stumbles and lets out a wet fart of randomness and nonsense that gives zero sense of satisfaction to a viewer.

Knowing this helped me gloss over the lack of acknowledgement about Moriarty this whole ep since I expect nothing from him after all these years, even though fans have waited 3 years for this.
 

Boem

Member
An extra thing I'll say that I do every year in Doctor Who threads: Moffat sucks ass at answering cliffhangers and resolving season arcs. He's admittedly very good at building the mystery up and getting people taking about it but when it comes time to tying it all up he always stumbles and lets out a wet fart of randomness and nonsense that gives zero sense of satisfaction to a viewer.

Knowing this helped me gloss over the lack of acknowledgement about Moriarty this whole ep since I expect nothing from him after all these years, even though fans have waited 3 years for this.

Obviously this is just episode 1 of a set of three, and of course the remaining two episodes will talk about Moriarty more.

Also important: Moffat didn't write this episode (Mark Gatiss did), and he isn't the sole creator of Sherlock. I know it's popular to hate on Moffat but it's going a bit far to blame him before we've even reached his episode of this season yet.

Also I think Moffat is far better than many people give him credit for. Even with his flaws (and he does have them), his good sides easily make up for it for me. Very interesting, honestly clever (and funny) writer who can do deep thematic stuff and who isn't afraid to take long shots and experiment. Not all of these experiments pay off, but especially for Doctor Who, I'd rather have experimental and new tv that doesn't hit on all levels than boring and safe tv. I've seen enough of that in my life. Boring.standard Doctor Who is bad Doctor Who.
 

Media

Member
As for the former: Gatiss's poem was a direct response to a specific Guardian review that complained about the show having too much action and Sherlock getting involved in that action (even though he also did in the books). As for the latter:





I think many people are forgetting the deep, dark secret of the original Sherlock Holmes stories: the mysteries were never really that good. Fun and memorable? Sure. But they hung together by pure coincidence, needed impossible leaps of logic by Sherlock, and were more based on illogical guesswork rather than actual logic. The mysteries themselves were never the strong point (other works, even ones contemporary to Doyle's works, were far better at logically unfolding puzzle boxes), it was always about the characters. It was always about seeing Sherlock and Watson bounce off each other (and off the almost comic book-like villains and side characters), and about the weird butterfly effect-like elaborate plans and schemes of the villains. There was a lot of comedy in the over the top plans of both Sherlock and the bad guys, and the weird, coincidental deductions between the two.

I know this may sound blasphemous to some people, but really, go back and read the original stories. For some reason the Sherlock Holmes stories have this reputation of being about these genius-level mysteries were the reader is slowly given hints in order to solve the mysteries themselves, even though the actual stories (with a few rare exceptions) aren't structured that way at all. It was always way more pulpy than that. Fun, exciting, well-written (even, surprisingly, after all these years) and historically important pulp. but pulp nonetheless.

Of course, the style of storytelling in the relationship between Holmes and Watson is very different in those old books compared to a modern tv show, but that was always the core. I'll admit, I was never really a fan of Mary's spy background, but it's exactly the kind of ridiculous secret an original book character might have had, and the focus on how this affects SH and Watson is exactly what it needs to be. The modern version is more emotional, sure, but this is prestige television, and it has always been the core of the show since day one. Given how many Sherlock adaptions there are that do the procedural thing, I don't think it's a bad thing at all that this adaption puts its focus elsewhere, especially because it's a factor of the books that's often overlooked by people making adaptions. Switching to a more House/Elementary-like procedural adaption would be the wrong call here. Those shows already exist. Hundreds of them.

I don't like every episode of Sherlock, but I do think, for example, that especially episodes 2 and 3 of season 3 are modern TV classics, and often overlooked by the fans. This is still a very high quality show, and people wanting more of a standard procedural want something the show has never really been. Why create something that already exists, in excess even?

These are two of the most historically famous literary characters ever. Why not create a show about a Moore-like deep dive into what makes these larger-than-life characters thick and work in relation to each other? That always seemed the point of putting it in modern times to me - not just because you can do a joke about Watson writing on a blog instead of for the Strand, but because you can apply this post-modern approach to characters in this context. That's also the point on the overly stylistic direction of these episodes.

That's what I think at least. Not that people aren't free to dislike the show, but people are, I think, judging it for not being what it never even aimed for. They're simply watching the wrong Sherlock Holmes adaption I think. Judging the show for what it is trying to do leaves you walking away far more impressed.

All of this. I've been a fan of the original stories since I was a kid. I'm in love with the characters, not the mysteries.
 

Number45

Member
Thanks for that post Boem - mirrors my thoughts on the books. I was actually talking about this with my daughter (she watched the episode with me and was surprised I watched it, even if it's my favourite show of the last few years. Bloody teenagers!) the other day, specifically how it's about the characters rather than the stories.

I actually only read them within the last few years (the complete works) and I enjoyed them, but found the majority of the mysteries actually quite forgettable. The high points of this show have been far more memorable for me.
 

Siegcram

Member
I'm still enjoying the hell out of the show, but I'm easy to please I guess :p
Hey, that's great and far be it from me to tell you otherwise.

But to re-iterate on the point made above, I don't have a problem with the show conceptually, if they could pull off the character drama, I'd be all for it. But the writers and, especially in Mary's case, the performances just aren't up to it, most of the time.

Almost every overarching plot thread either fizzles out or becomes completely ridiculous. And what makes things worse are the huge breaks between seasons, that make failing cliffhangers that much more egregious.

So it's not as much the viewers watching the wrong adaptation imo, as it is the writers punching above their weight class.
 

hamchan

Member
Obviously this is just episode 1 of a set of three, and of course the remaining two episodes will talk about Moriarty more.

Also important: Moffat didn't write this episode (Mark Gatiss did), and he isn't the sole creator of Sherlock. I know it's popular to hate on Moffat but it's going a bit far to blame him before we've even reached his episode of this season yet.

Also I think Moffat is far better than many people give him credit for. Even with his flaws (and he does have them), his good sides easily make up for it for me. Very interesting, honestly clever (and funny) writer who can do deep thematic stuff and who isn't afraid to take long shots and experiment. Not all of these experiments pay off, but especially for Doctor Who, I'd rather have experimental and new tv that doesn't hit on all levels than boring and safe tv. I've seen enough of that in my life. Boring.standard Doctor Who is bad Doctor Who.

Oh don't worry, I know this was written by Gatiss and I give him far more shit than Moffat.

I actually like Moffat a lot. A lot of his episodes are the best Doctor Who has ever been, like Heaven Sent which might be my favourite episode ever. I think his experiments actually pay off 90% of the time in Doctor Who, as long as they stick to being a singular story rather than spread out over a season.

I'm just pointing out the one specific thing that he is ass at, which are season long mysteries and cliffhangers, and how knowing that lowered my expectations anytime he tries to attempt it. I still think the next episode, that he wrote, will be much better than the mess that was this Gatiss episode.

EDIT: There's now a thread on Reddit /r/Sherlock listing all the inconsistencies and errors in the Six Thatchers, with the notion that Moffat and Gatiss are up to something, like this is actually just Sherlock retelling the story of what happened.

I'd like to believe that there's a big twist at the end of the series that they've been hinting at because that would be kinda awesome, but I've been down this road with Doctor Who when I've seen hints to twists that weren't actually there, so once again, expectations set low.
 

pashmilla

Banned
I just caught up. Wow. That was so... bad. When did Sherlock turn into the Mary Morstan show? At least she's gone now, but they're probably not going to stop talking about her and angsting and shit. And great, now we get another season of Sherlock and John being angry at each other. Brilliant. Also Baskerville was a great episode. And also what the FUCK was up with John cheating?? These characters just didn't feel like the ones I fell in love with, with the exceptions of Lestrade, Molly and Mrs Hudson, who remain wonderful as ever.
 

Chris R

Member
The episode was great until Sherlock bust the bust open.

Then it was not so great until Mary was dead.

At least we can go forward now.
 

Eklesp

Member
The episode was great until Sherlock bust the bust open.

Then it was not so great until Mary was dead.

At least we can go forward now.

giphy.gif
 

Bakkus

Member
Anyone else thought Mary's last words after getting shot was bad acting? Put me out of feeling any empathy which I could have had.
 

Boem

Member
Gatiss put more effort into that poem than he did the last 3 Doctor Who episodes.

You had me looking up what Gatiss's last 3 Who episodes were, and I actually thought The Crimson Horror was pretty good. Not great (his work never really is), but a fun little romp that played to Matt Smith's strengths. Haven't watched it in ages (although I'm doing a Moffat era rewatch at the moment, given that next series is his last). My girlfriend and me loved Robot of Sherwood at the time as well, but we were pretty drunk and just laughed at the sillyness of it. I'm definitely not giving that one a sober rewatch. Sleep No More was, indeed, bad.

An Adventure in Space and Time, if you want to count that as a Doctor Who episode (in that case that would be his third most recent Who writing), was great as well. Lovely little tribute for the anniversary.

Of all his other work on Who I still think The Unquiet Dead and Night Terrors were decent. The rest (The Idiot's Lantern, Victory of the Daleks and Cold War) was utterly forgettable.

So yeah, he's never great, and he's overshadowed by other writers in whatever he writes. It's all a bit too straight-forward. I genuinely love him as Mycroft, but his scripts never really feel like he tries to do more than give you a standard adventure.
 

Joqu

Member
I enjoyed it. Especially the first part was really good Sherlock to me. But I've really continued enjoying Sherlock in general and looking at the reactions in here I guess I'm just easy to please? Bummer.

But I also did dislike Mary and her whole superspy thing so I'm glad she's gone
 

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
I'm excited for tonight despite my issues with the premiere. Gotta decide between this or the Golden Globes. I believe this is the first episode that I've gone into 100% cold. I managed not see any previews or trailers for it.
 
I can live with her still being here as a figment of Watson's broken mind. I nearly had a stroke when I thought she had actually survived.
 
Mrs. Hudson thinking she's James Bond behind the wheel was great.

In fact this whole episode has been great so far. Massive improvement over last week.
 

Kathian

Banned
Already ten times better than last week. At what point does Midday just write every week? I mean Gatiss is in the bloody thing.
 

Kathian

Banned
I'm about 20 mins behind but fucking hell I know it's different locations but Moff actually does half the episode in one scene.
 
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