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Sony custom RDNA2 have their own VRS and mesh shading - Cerny and Naughty dog
- Thread starter geordiemp
- Start date
devilNprada
Member
Nope
anothertech
Member
If full rdna2 is giving us Craig visuals, ps5 is obviously a generation or two ahead...
Knitted Knight
Banned
Oh oh... people continue to set themselves up...
Edit: V3.00 below.
Edit: V3.00 below.
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This confusion only helps you if you have the weaker product. If you have the most powerful product, your interest is to communicate as clearly as possible about the features that you provide.Oh oh... people continue to set themselves up...
We know which strategy each of those manufacturers has gone for.
Elog
Member
Agree. This is a new direction again. This is a good twitter thread including a developer with PS5 dev.kit. access - Mr Deezy (this was with reference to the Sony patents):
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Knitted Knight
Banned
So much confusion on simple language.... but but.... "why doesn't Sony says it???" "What are they hiding?"
V2.0:
Edit: V3.00 below.
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Yoboman
Member
Sony were no better at communicating what was in their hardware with PS4 beyond base specs. They just keep a lot of this stuff to themselves or keep it developer oriented
Knitted Knight
Banned
Sony simply has their marketing plan laid out and clearly doesn't want to deviate from it by responding to the competition and in doing so defacto elevating that conversation as the main topic of debate in media circles. They don't want that to take away attention from what Sony wants the focus to be in: games, the dualsense controller etc. It's bait that has failed to capture the news cycle. Sony is smart in not elevating it.
With that said, as enthusiasts, it would be nice if Sony, some time down the line does go deeper into their Geometry Engine.
Seems likegeordiemp was right
V3.00 incoming.
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geordiemp
Member
You're right, they were just outright stating that they had the most powerful console and didn't bother getting into the details. I agree with you.
Not much longer until we start seeing what those devices are worth. There's a good number of multiplatform games available at launch.
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JackMcGunns
Member
If Sony is better than AMD with their “Customizations” why didn’t they just design the entire GPU?
Agnostic2020
Member
Those are vrs and mesh shades probably part of their geometry engine on ps5
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Waiting for the doubt and concern pouring in, let’s see what the workshop brings
.
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megreotsugua
Banned
The rumor is that Sony's optimizations will be featured in future AMD GPUs.
Lovelygamer
Banned
Sony is ready to buy Crunchyroll for $957 million 
Sony is ready to buy Crunchyroll for $957 million - Nintendo Smash- Nintendo switch the best selling game consoleAccording to Nikkei, the anime streaming service has at least 70 million users. If the negotiations
nintendosmash.com
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Began what?
Where's the proof my opinions are more one-sided? How? In what context?
There is no speed in jumping to conclusions; reality is you can't keep daydreaming of something being there forever if it's never officially confirmed. That is the point.
martino
Member
an again i will think that in some weeks not 2 days after RDNA 2 reveal.
duhmetree
Member
They are good at customizing a GPU for devs and the PS5.
Does it? The guy is merely an aspiring developer, not an authority. Throwing him around like some kind of ace card seems a little desperate.
Granted, he would obviously know a lot more that Geordie.
duhmetree
Member
crickets....Sony simply has their marketing plan laid out and clearly doesn't want to deviate from it by responding to the competition and in doing so defacto elevating that conversation as the main topic of debate in media circles. They don't want that to take away attention from what Sony wants the focus to be in: games, the dualsense controller etc. It's bait that has failed to capture the news cycle. Sony is smart in not elevating it.
With that said, as enthusiasts, it would be nice if Sony, some time down the line does go deeper into their Geometry Engine.
V3.00 incoming.
but but its not Full RDNA2... checkmate.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
What evidence have you seen pointing to a big "secret sauce tech dive" on PS5 in two weeks that is at least somewhat credible? Prove the belief.
It's much more logical to assume whatever event Sony have at that time will be in celebration of the system's launch and (probably) fully showing off the OS featureset. That's both more likely and much more palatable to the mass-market.
What does any of this actually prove?
RGT being a fanboy and STRONGLY defensive of PS5 on Twitter (he's already done this regularly in his Youtube videos, FWIW. Didn't want to address that but his latest behavior is leaning him strong on that front)?
A rookie dev making some claims without us even knowing if they have other devkits (recent devkits) to compare to for both systems?
Leviathan simply going off what he's heard from a few other people, who for all we (and he) could know may not be legitimate devs (through no fault of his own)?
That even this late into things we are relying on tech people, small devs, and patents that could or could not be featured working in technology in an actual product, as confirmation of things in lieu of MS & AMD's announcement on Wednesday, rather than getting this confirmation officially from Sony directly?
That the same people who were saying Sony needed to wait on AMD to fully reveal RDNA 2 before detailing their own full features, only to turn out it was MS waiting for AMD to fully reveal RDNA 2 to start talking about their full features, are now saying Sony will reveal RDNA 3 features over a year ahead of RDNA 3 coming to market or even AMD talking about it, even though by the logic of what I just said Sony would have to wait over a year until AMD divulge RDNA 3 before they could talk about anything? Which if so makes the likelihood of any such details in November literally impossible?
I swear man, the complete failure in logic and reasoning skills some of you are displaying is really sad.
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longdi
Banned
Does it? The guy is merely an aspiring developer, not an authority. Throwing him around like some kind of ace card seems a little desperate.
Granted, he would obviously know a lot more that Geordie.
Ouch! another random tweeter caught.
Desparate times calls for desparate search across twitter.
Damn Amd, why you no make secret sauce talk the day before?
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martino
Member
Your position is also belief relying on absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
You also can't say there is no smoke to believe otherwise
It's why i prefer to play the wait game a little more.
I'm just the more cautious of the two here.
megreotsugua
Banned
The guy has PS5 devkits though. He is not making a guess-work, he has working knowledge of the PS5. He has a devkit.
Whitecrow
Banned
Lets just say that PS5 have SonyRDNA instead of RDNA2 OK?
Sony said,
RDN2 have this? Well, we wont use that, we will use this instead.
TADA!
PS5 is not "Full" RDNA2, but have their own features that RDNA2 doesnt have.
XBOX have 0 costumization on the feature set, so it's "Full" RDNA2.
Can we stop useing the RDNA to measure consoles dicks please? It's absurd.
Sony said,
RDN2 have this? Well, we wont use that, we will use this instead.
TADA!
PS5 is not "Full" RDNA2, but have their own features that RDNA2 doesnt have.
XBOX have 0 costumization on the feature set, so it's "Full" RDNA2.
Can we stop useing the RDNA to measure consoles dicks please? It's absurd.
duhmetree
Member
Nothing's changed. We were hoping for clarifications. The RDNA2 event was a logical thought, where things will be revealed.
I dont know what you're arguing. Nothings changed. Well one thing did change.....
Microsoft tweets out, (I'm paraprhasing ) " Only next-gen with FULL RDNA 2 " and the Microsoft Warriors went ballistic. Even though we ALREADY knew Sony was not to be using a full-desktop implementation of RDNA2. This is not news but it started the Xbox warcry. Warriors started beating their chests and warcrying FULL.. It's the craziest things I've witnessed on here. I didn't get names but according to some, Sony now doesn't have VRS or any RDNA2 tech/equivalents and is using RDNA1 tech. Logic and reason goes out the window..
It's been rumored/reported that Sony created a custom and advanced geometry engine. It's right there for everyone to see. Even Cerny has talked about it. It will allegedly influence RDNA3. You dont have to believe it. We'll wait for Sony to talk about it or just let the games do the talking.
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
What smoke? Dude, we've been hearing a lot of these same rumors for months now, but we also heard other rumors for months that turned out to not be true whatsoever. A lot of the same people circulating those rumors, are circulating these ones.
Remember when people said we'd get new silicon details in the teardown? Didn't happen. Remember when they said we'd get word from Sony on more hardware details at AMD's event and just after? Didn't happen. In fact it was MS who gave further details.
You can be blindly gullible all you want; while I see value in patents and research papers, at the end of the day ALL tech companies have troves of patents and research papers. A lot of the time, they are for various R&D projects and likely not even related to products coming to retail the way we all might think they are.
At some point you need a realistic timeline for when you can expect confirmation on certain speculation before you need to hang the hat up and just accept things as they are. There are still people to this day who refuse to believe Oberon is the PS5 GPU, for example, even though tons of info literally confirm it. They reject it, though, because it's not confirming their preexisting biases, that's all.
I get the feeling you and others are rejecting certain things as even a possibility because they aren't confirming your own preexisting biases, because one thing I kept seeing way back in December in the NG speculation thread was "power doesn't matter". Yet the same posters have been trying to build a narrative built off of, essentially, "power matters" by shifting the definition of "power" from teraflops to the audio to the SSD and now to some "secret sauce" that Mark Cerny didn't discuss in March and somehow Sony are expected to reveal in two weeks even though the same people said Sony were waiting for AMD to reveal RDNA 2 in order to talk about their full feature set. Suddenly none of that matters for any RDNA 3 "secret sauce"?
Come on. Get with reality. Like I said, we by and large know what these systems can do and what they're capable of. They're both very impressive pieces of kit with some specializations in a few areas. They're both going to be leveraged very well by 1P and 3P devs over the course of the generation. We're getting awesome games on both...
...but for some people, this battle of attrition in the form of "my plastic box has more secret, ultra-awesome fancy-sauce custom tech than your plastic box!" never dies, because they're always stuck in arrested development when it comes to console discussion. Don't be that sort of person.
The context of "full" is not known, because we know that whatever MS has in regards to the "full" RDNA 2, they also have a few things that are still exclusive to them. For example, the mip-blending hardware in the GPU for aiding SFS, Jason Ronald's on record stating that's exclusive to them. They also have a larger mesh block group support compared to Nvidia GPUs, though that could've been in reference to non-3000 GPUs, and it's not confirmed if AMD GPUs will support mesh block groups as large as what MS does on Series X.
Yes, we know Sony have gone with customizations on their end, but two things I've noticed since Wednesday is a lot of people doubling down on the notions that these were done out of preference, and that simply by being custom they are inherently better. Neither of these things are true. There's at least some evidence showing now that whatever implementations of their own Sony decided to roll with to provide equivalents to certain RDNA 2 features they've yet to officially confirm, was done out of necessity since MS's work with AMD on RDNA 2 was deeply ingrained, moreso than early rumors suggested.
And as the history of the industry shows us, having something "custom" doesn't mean it's automatically better than the default (if you can even define what is the default). It just means it's different. There's been a decent number of custom approaches in various consoles (including a few Sony ones) that have produced less-than-desired results or just outright weren't very beneficial. It happens. But there have also been some which have been very good, excellent even.
That said, the way I've been seeing some people essentially denigrate AMD by proxy by insisting how superior Sony's customizations "absolutely must be", is amusing, because I don't think they even realize that's something they're doing, just goes to show how deep into the warrior mindset they are now. It would also ask the question, if AMD's own solutions were so poor, why did Sony even bother leveraging them for their next-gen console? Surely they could've found a way to incorporate BC on a non-AMD design in such a case, no?
These people aren't asking those questions because I doubt they're even thinking that much to begin with, but it's also because asking those questions weakens their arguments. Some of them know this internally, which is why they never take it to its logical conclusion. I can't help if that's how some folks want to act :S
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martino
Member
you need to stop to feel , call people daydreamer and etc....
you want you current belief to be fact ? it won't become a facts without confirmation.
you want to me make jump to conclusion ? it won't work. Especially calling me names with more or less subtlety in the process...
why did i say few weeks ? because if the details don't come from sony. Most of it will come from the community and the silicon itself.
Now let's stop that here. You can run with your bias and the conclusion you want to be true today. I'm not disagreeing odds are you right btw.
but i will wait for it to be real with more than educated guesses that are half wishfull thinking. (like RGT thoughts btw)
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OptimistPrime
Member
I’ll just put this here:
No. If I remember correctly, Sony added more ACEs to the GPU of the OG PS4 which influenced AMDs GCN.
You know if folks would just go back and listen to Mark Cerny Road to PS5 talk again he talked about this. They don't just take what AMD has in their road map. They make their own custom solutions which influences what AMD roadmap becomes and AMD can implement a similar solution for their GPUs. Its called collaboration, Cerny specifically said this.
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if this is what ps5 have ...this is basically vrs tier 1There is allot of mis understanding on RDNA2 features, especially where Sony wanted their own VRS and own mesh shader type operations.
See below. Hopefully puts the confusion to rest why Sony used their own methods rather than standard AMD. Its called customisation.
Mark Evan Cerny Inventions, Patents and Patent Applications - Justia Patents Search
USPTO patent applications submitted by and patents granted to Mark Evan Cernypatents.justia.com
These are Cerny and Naught dog.
rdna 2 and xsx/s have the evolution of this ..allowing different shading rates within each draw call
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geordiemp
Member
Sources ? Thought not.
read the patent
duhmetree
Member
The only people that I've seen aggressive, is Microsoft warriors towards Sony.
Sony will not be using Microsoft technology. This is not news. RDNA2 desktop software is integrated with DirectX. Sony came up with their own variants as early as 2017. It just so happens that they are allegedly 'more advanced' than the current offerings and it will inspire AMD's RDNA3.
However, I'm not arguing if they're more powerful/more advanced.... but people are arguing that it actually exists. As in, Sony does not have VRS, Mesh Shaders, SFS, Velocity, Ray Tracing etc .... we heard it all. It's borderline propaganda and Fake News. Once again, we're not arguing that it's going to blow RDNA2 out of the water... We're arguing that the tech actually exists. Ands it's only one group aggressively attacking and denigrating here.
Believe it, or not. It doesn't matter to me. Sony has their own tech comparable to RDNA2's offerings. SOME have said it's advanced and next gen. The games will do all the talking.
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geordiemp
Member
I did
The fragments (or “pixels”) generated from the primitives during scan conversion 344 may have parameter values that may be interpolated to the locations of the pixels from the vertex parameter values 339 of the vertices of the primitive that created them. The rasterization stage 340 may include parameter interpolation operations 346 stage to compute these interpolated fragment parameter values 349, which may be used as inputs for further processing at the later stages of the pipeline.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
I'm not calling you names, not necessarily. However, I am noticing tendencies in what's motivating your posting and making note of it. That's required to an extend so that I know how to proceed with discussion.
There is NOTHING wrong with speculating. We speculate all the time. Hell I'm speculating on mid-gen refreshes and 10th-gen hardware and a decent chunk of that speculation will probably end up wrong xD. However at the end of the day I know that it's speculation, and doesn't substitute actual verified, confirmed data and info from the companies themselves.
Relying on "the community" is dangerous if you can't filter out genuine voices from the fake ones. There will always be opportunists present hiding under a guise of authority to try swaying a narrative, for example. We've seen enough of that over the past few months.
Additionally, relying on the community and silicon to "do the talking", as you put it, doesn't mean what's said will particularly be in the favor of what you desire. This goes for both systems, which also brings another point: there's just as likely a chance the community and silicon "doing the talking" for MS's hardware puts it in an even more favorable light. Sony and MS share a lot of the same 3P community support, after all, and are basically utilizing the same technology at the end of the day so....?
the first patent (which is very similar to what vrs is) does not talk about processing different shading rates within the same draw call. but like tier 1 it talks about a draw call and how to process it
onesvenus
Member
That's the lie here. Cerny's interviews afterwards say that they took what AMD already had on their roadmap. The PS4 being the first hardware that had more ACEs in the GPU does not make that a Sony addition. There is no written history that backs the claim that Sony influenced AMDs roadmap somehow except for random posters on forums.
geordiemp
Member
From Cerny patent
In alternative implementations, there can be a larger number of pixels (e.g., 64 pixel by 64 pixel) or a smaller number of pixels (e.g., 16 by 16) or a variable number of pixels (e.g. a mix of rectangular sizes) in each Subsection and a correspondingly different number of Subsections.
From DX12
If the hardware does support Tier 2 variable rate shading, the tile size is one of
- 8
- 16
- 32
martino
Member
Like you said you've baited me enough for now.(damn it)
But i think you don't understand what i want at all and it's simple : it's certainty.
And i still think with little patience we can have that on most of today topics (let's say it's my belief / speculation)
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isn't about tile size is about draw call and lots of other things you should check the long list of things vrs tier 1 can't do
geordiemp
Member
Sonys VRS is custom for what Sony want, it is neither Microsoft Tier 1 nor Microsoft tier 2, It is Sony VRS.
Also last but not least, the patent describes the function of Sony VRS for VR applications, it is not a full list of the VRS Sony implementation.
Its a patent, take it as such, its patenting the special method for wide frustum dual viewports that saves up to 40 %.
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rnlval
Member
Nvidia's direction is a major factor when it comes to hardware implementation. AMD implemented Sony's request changes. AMD's copyright is on PS4's silicon.
rnlval
Member
FYI, R9-290X was released ahead of PS4.
Calverz
Gold Member
This gen i feel sony skimping on features to save money. No dolby atmos, no dolby vision, not full rdna 2 features. “But but but they have their own custom features and replacements.” Man dont give me that shit. This thing costs the same as the xbox series x. Im spending £520 to play demons souls!
anothertech
Member
The proof is in the pudding. And we've known about it for months.
Sonys Solution
Full RDNA2
Sony knew better than to use that shit
Sonys Solution
Full RDNA2
Sony knew better than to use that shit