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Sony custom RDNA2 have their own VRS and mesh shading - Cerny and Naughty dog

rnlval

Member
The only people that I've seen aggressive, is Microsoft warriors towards Sony.

Sony will not be using Microsoft technology. This is not news. RDNA2 desktop software is integrated with DirectX. Sony came up with their own variants as early as 2017. It just so happens that they are allegedly 'more advanced' than the current offerings and it will inspire AMD's RDNA3.

However, I'm not arguing if they're more powerful/more advanced.... but people are arguing that it actually exists. As in, Sony does not have VRS, Mesh Shaders, SFS, Velocity, Ray Tracing etc .... we heard it all. It's borderline propaganda and Fake News. Once again, we're not arguing that it's going to blow RDNA2 out of the water... We're arguing that the tech actually exists. Ands it's only one group aggressively attacking and denigrating here.

Believe it, or not. It doesn't matter to me. Sony has their own tech comparable to RDNA2's offerings. SOME have said it's advanced and next gen. The games will do all the talking.
From https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-the-scorpio-engine-in-depth

However, Andrew Goossen tells us that the GPU supports extensions that allow depth and ID buffers to be efficiently rendered at full native resolution, while colour buffers can be rendered at half resolution with full pixel shader efficiency

Xbox One X already has a type VRS like feature since 2017.


The statement "It just so happens that they are allegedly 'more advanced' than the current offerings and it will inspire AMD's RDNA3" is unproven BS.
 
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duhmetree

Member
From https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-the-scorpio-engine-in-depth

However, Andrew Goossen tells us that the GPU supports extensions that allow depth and ID buffers to be efficiently rendered at full native resolution, while colour buffers can be rendered at half resolution with full pixel shader efficiency

Xbox One X already has a type VRS like feature since 2017.


The statement "It just so happens that they are allegedly 'more advanced' than the current offerings and it will inspire AMD's RDNA3" is unproven BS.
It is unproven, as Sony has not detailed it but it comes from a reliable source/leaker.

I'm sorry it doesn't fit your narrative or empower your Microsoft tribe. If it was the other way around, I'd still be talking about it.
 
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rnlval

Member

rnlval

Member
It is unproven, as Sony has not detailed it but it comes from a reliable source/leaker.

I'm sorry it doesn't fit your narrative or empower your Microsoft tribe. If it was the other way around, I'd still be talking about it.
You haven't stated any facts in regard to PS5's RDNA3 features.
 

Ar¢tos

Member
This discussion is really funny!
As if any of this matters!
Having VRS or not is not gonna sell more or less PS5s, the casuals that make up most of the install base don't care, they just want to play Fifa or CoD.
If we had a 16tf console vs a 10tf console it would be interesting to see the differences, but what we have is all so similar that it isn't even worth wasting time comparing, except for DF with their zoomed screenshots.
If MS really wanted to make a difference they should have made a third 16tf console for 700$ and I'm sure it would have sold out even faster than the X or the S.
 

duhmetree

Member
You haven't stated any facts in regard to PS5's RDNA3 features.
The fact is, that a good source who has accurately leaked AMD's stuff has said, RDNA3 will be inspired by the PS5. The PS5 has a more advanced Geometry Engine than RDNA2. I'm sorry that upsets you.

timestamped for your convenience. It's only 10ish minutes




If you don't agree with that, that's fine. I'm not the source.
 
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rnlval

Member
The fact is, that a good source who has accurately leaked AMD's stuff has said, RDNA3 will be inspired by the PS5. The PS5 has a more advanced Geometry Engine than RDNA2. I'm sorry that upsets you.

timestamped for your convenience. It's only 10ish minutes




If you don't agree with that, that's fine. I'm not the source.

Unproven BS.
 

SatansReverence

Hipster Princess
Sony simply has their marketing plan laid out and clearly doesn't want to deviate from it by responding to the competition and in doing so defacto elevating that conversation as the main topic of debate in media circles. They don't want that to take away attention from what Sony wants the focus to be in: games, the dualsense controller etc. It's bait that has failed to capture the news cycle. Sony is smart in not elevating it.

With that said, as enthusiasts, it would be nice if Sony, some time down the line does go deeper into their Geometry Engine.



V3.00 incoming.

v3.jpg
Retweeting Serrano :messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Xbox one had a secret sauce, now ps5 have...
People never learn
Looks like you don't know what VRS is.

It's not a "secret". It has always been in games and it actually works.

Xbox One "secret sauce" was created by fanboys.
 

JackMcGunns

Member
The proof is in the pudding. And we've known about it for months.

Sonys Solution
demons-souls-ps5.original.jpg


Full RDNA2
craig-from-halo-infinite-is-the-new-xbox-mascot-jokes-xbox-c_atv7.jpg


craig-the-brute.png


Sony knew better than to use that shit


Craig was a funny meme, we all laughed, but it's getting old now, using that for comparison is just as disingenuous as using the Nathan Drake meme which we all laughed at too, but I don't recall anyone using that to compare against Xbox games, that would be disingenuous.

dd808094c8832bb699bb4b8e207b49e4.jpg
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Sure Sure..
Magical i/o
Magical cache scrubbers
Now a magical geometry engine that will make everything better than rdna2.0, mesh, vrs, super res / ml.

ueJFKXg.gif

Sony and AMD confirmed several of these features on RDNA 2 and you're labeling them as fake\ "secret sauce".

You should read up on some of this stuff.. it will help out a lot.
 

Sejanus

Member
Sony and AMD confirmed several of these features on RDNA 2 and you're labeling them as fake\ "secret sauce".

You should read up on some of this stuff.. it will help out a lot.
I do not say if it have or not have, but I can not stand the exaggeration.
Until a big third party dev talk about these features, we can only guess.
But for me until now
Ps5 is a rdna2.0 based Gpu (2070s performance) and far better ssd, controller, audio.
XsS is a rdna2.0 Gpu (2080s performance)

And it really is far better than it was the previous generation.
 

B_Boss

Member
Someone should tell him that variable rate shading has nothing to do with geometry.

Geometry is handled by mesh shading.

Geometry Engine is a hold over from GCN which AMD dropped in favour of supporting Microsofts solution.

Why not respond to him in a respectful and technical manner? I'd love to get some learning out of that kind of mature back and forth discussion.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
I do not say if it have or not have, but I can not stand the exaggeration.
Until a big third party dev talk about these features, we can only guess.
But for me until now
Ps5 is a rdna2.0 based Gpu (2070s performance) and far better ssd, controller, audio.
XsS is a rdna2.0 Gpu (2080s performance)

And it really is far better than it was the previous generation.

Devs already have.

They were already demonstrated in games and it's already in games today such as Gears Tactics and Wolfenstein.



Sony's fast AI was displayed with faster loading with Spider-Man, Ratchet and Clank and Demon Souls.


This topic is about The PlayStation 5 supporting these already established features that people are saying the the console does not have, and it very well looks like it WILL.
 

truth411

Member
That's the lie here. Cerny's interviews afterwards say that they took what AMD already had on their roadmap. The PS4 being the first hardware that had more ACEs in the GPU does not make that a Sony addition. There is no written history that backs the claim that Sony influenced AMDs roadmap somehow except for random posters on forums.
I dont think thats correct, but it was 7 years ago. But anywho unless your claiming Cerny is lying in his "Road to PS5" talk my post still stands.
 

Sejanus

Member
Devs already have.

They were already demonstrated in games and it's already in games today such as Gears Tactics and Wolfenstein.



Sony's fast AI was displayed with faster loading with Spider-Man, Ratchet and Clank and Demon Souls.


This topic is about The PlayStation 5 supporting these already established features that people are saying the the console does not have, and it very well looks like it WILL.

I know what is vrs and I know xsx will use and probably ps5 will use a custom type of vrs.
But I hate the exaggeration and the damage control the fanboys (both of them) make about them.
And this is Sony's mistake, if it had done something like the xsx / hotchip presentation now we would not be talking about speculations.
 

onesvenus

Member
I dont think thats correct, but it was 7 years ago. But anywho unless your claiming Cerny is lying in his "Road to PS5" talk my post still stands.
He says they collaborated with Sony. From there to Sony influenced AMD's roadmap there's a great distance.
We will see in the future though.
 

RaySoft

Member
From https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-the-scorpio-engine-in-depth

However, Andrew Goossen tells us that the GPU supports extensions that allow depth and ID buffers to be efficiently rendered at full native resolution, while colour buffers can be rendered at half resolution with full pixel shader efficiency

Xbox One X already has a type VRS like feature since 2017.


The statement "It just so happens that they are allegedly 'more advanced' than the current offerings and it will inspire AMD's RDNA3" is unproven BS.
Based on what I've read from credible sources on twitter(!!) Sony's solution to culling is to stop the workload (that ends up being culled anyways) earlier in the pipeline, to save cycles. This approach will save more resources than culling after said workload reaches the renderer.
And this right here is my bet on what will be part of RDNA3 down the line.
 
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RaySoft

Member
I know what is vrs and I know xsx will use and probably ps5 will use a custom type of vrs.
But I hate the exaggeration and the damage control the fanboys (both of them) make about them.
And this is Sony's mistake, if it had done something like the xsx / hotchip presentation now we would not be talking about speculations.
now... Where's the fun in that tho'? ;-)
 

rnlval

Member
Based on what I've read from credible sources on twitter(!!) Sony's solution to culling is to stop the workload (that ends up being culled anyways) earlier in the pipeline, to save cycles. This approach will save more resources than culling after said workload reaches the renderer.
And this right here is my bet on what will be part of RDNA3 down the line.
FYI, MS's mesh shader also has geometry culling, and this was already shown between XSX at 4K vs RTX 2080 Ti at 1440p.
 

Md Ray

Member
I do not say if it have or not have, but I can not stand the exaggeration.
Until a big third party dev talk about these features, we can only guess.
But for me until now
Ps5 is a rdna2.0 based Gpu (2070s performance) and far better ssd, controller, audio.
XsS is a rdna2.0 Gpu (2080s performance)

And it really is far better than it was the previous generation.
2080*
The SX was a bit below that, in fact, according to DF in G5 benchmark.
 
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RaySoft

Member
FYI, MS's mesh shader also has geometry culling, and this was already shown between XSX at 4K vs RTX 2080 Ti at 1440p.
I know it has. The question is rather how early in the pipe can they cull it. I don't know if there are any (leaked) papers available for shedding some light on this?
 

martino

Member
I know it has. The question is rather how early in the pipe can they cull it. I don't know if there are any (leaked) papers available for shedding some light on this?
look at my earlier post....
amplification shader is first step in those cases.
if the task is done on SM/CU (and road of ps5 doesn't say otherwise) then it can't happen sooner than when using mesh shader.

it's well documented and zero speculation on mesh shader end :



the beginning of the video is great too
 
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duhmetree

Member
FYI, MS's mesh shader also has geometry culling, and this was already shown between XSX at 4K vs RTX 2080 Ti at 1440p.
Yes, I feel its been established that BOTH consoles will have a similar feature set. As in they will achieve similar things but with different methods.

Piggybacking off of that, there was a leak that the Geometry Engine of the PS5 is a little more advanced. Believe it or not. It doesn't matter. XSX still has more horsepower. Sony 1st party games will be amazing. 3rd party games will be near parity or with a slight edge to XSX. I don't know what the issue is.
 

Md Ray

Member
Wait you guys legit believe the PS5 has a stronger GPU than the Series X?
But since you asked it...

Yes, and no. TF just shows the computational capability of the vector ALU, it's just one part the GPU. A GPU has a lot of other units like ROPs, primitive units, etc.

Series X has 18% adv in TF but other parts of the GPU like rasterization rate, pixel fillrate are better on PS5 GPU due to its ROPs & prim units running at 20% higher clock speed, thus its L1$ & L2$, rasterization rate, pixel fillrate are all 20%+ faster than XSX GPU. The other advantage SX has is the bandwidth, by 25%.
 

yurinka

Member
Wait you guys legit believe the PS5 has a stronger GPU than the Series X?
In some areas PS5 will be less strong mostly because it has less CUs, in other areas will be stonger mostly because it's faster/has higher frequency and on top of that has AMD SmartShift to get a little of extra horsepower from at that moment unused CPU horsepower, so will make faster the tasks that don't use all CUs, or no CU at all.

On top of that, it should reach a higher % of its potential peak performance than Series X because due to the faster and more optimized loading solution will be able to free uneeded resources before, replacing them faster with new ones.

We'll have to wait and see multiplatform games performance, to see which one offers a better performance and how -and if- devs take advantage of the stuff available on each machine.

In any case, the theorical peak performance for some of it tasks that according to many devs isn't a good measure of horsepower (teraflops) this generation has a smaller % difference between both consoles than in the previous generation so the difference should be smaller. And this is without considering devs often go for the minimum common denominator to optimize development budget and avoid fanboy wars of 'that version looks better than this other one'.

My bet is that multiplatform games will look basically identical for most users, and that tiny differences will favor a console or the other depending on the game or certain techinical areas.
 
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rnlval

Member



posted Date: Sept. 11, 2020

thanks for proving the point. He leaked Infinity Cache 128MB nearly 2 months before reveal.

AMD's infinity cache was filed way back in March 2019, hence they've been planning it for a while.

A larger cache for BiG NAVI's RBE was being discussed since Aug 2020


BiG NAVI's 16 GB VRAM configuration was already known since Sep 5, 2020




From https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2155669/

XSX has 76 MB of cache, if you take out the CPU cache it is around 64 MB for the 2 Shader Engines.
For a 4 SE 80 CU Navi21, 128 MB is nothing extra compared to the 64MB for 2 SE (32MB/SE) that XSX has.
At Hot Chips though, MS never said a thing where those 64MB of cache were located or used for


Date: Sep 15, 2020

Microsoft already confirms XSX has Zen 2's cache config mobile version.
 
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Dolomite

Member
So We're...... we're still trying to pawn Prim shaders off as a 1:1 equivalent to mesh shaders?. Why does it matter, they don't have Mesh, VRS,ML, or SFS. And that's fine. Series consoles don't have some things Sony added and that's fine. These consoles aren't carbon copies of each other's respective architecture, some things one does objectively better than the other and none of that will change a week out from launch
 
Craig was a funny meme, we all laughed, but it's getting old now, using that for comparison is just as disingenuous as using the Nathan Drake meme which we all laughed at too, but I don't recall anyone using that to compare against Xbox games, that would be disingenuous.

dd808094c8832bb699bb4b8e207b49e4.jpg
2008 & July 2020... Same thing.
 

duhmetree

Member
AMD's infinity cache was filed way back in March 2019, hence they've been planning it for a while.

A larger cache for BiG NAVI's RBE was being discussed since Aug 2020


BiG NAVI's 16 GB VRAM configuration was already known since Sep 5, 2020




From https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2155669/

XSX has 76 MB of cache, if you take out the CPU cache it is around 64 MB for the 2 Shader Engines.
For a 4 SE 80 CU Navi21, 128 MB is nothing extra compared to the 64MB for 2 SE (32MB/SE) that XSX has.
At Hot Chips though, MS never said a thing where those 64MB of cache were located or used for


Date: Sep 15, 2020

Microsoft already confirms XSX has Zen 2's cache config mobile version.

:messenger_tears_of_joy:


Cache ≠ Infinity Cache.

No signs of Infinity Cache with 128MB until AFTER he leaks it? That's your proof? Just let it go man... I'm sorry it bothers you that much
 
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Lethal01

Member
So We're...... we're still trying to pawn Prim shaders off as a 1:1 equivalent to mesh shaders?. Why does it matter, they don't have Mesh, VRS,ML, or SFS. And that's fine. Series consoles don't have some things Sony added and that's fine. These consoles aren't carbon copies of each other's respective architecture, some things one does objectively better than the other and none of that will change a week out from launch

It's fine if they don't have those thing, but it's not proven they don't have those things.
 

Killer8

Member
Never really understood why there is so much dick waggling about VRS. From my understanding of it, it's merely a way of reducing the fidelity of some aspects of the image to save on performance, and based on Digital Foundry's Gears Tactics video that saving is only about 5-10%. It sounds like it might become more useful to bleed that extra bit of performance out of the XSX towards the end of the generation. But we're still essentially just celebrating being able to degrade our image somewhat to improve performance somewhat. Hardly earth shattering stuff.
 
Never really understood why there is so much dick waggling about VRS. From my understanding of it, it's merely a way of reducing the fidelity of some aspects of the image to save on performance, and based on Digital Foundry's Gears Tactics video that saving is only about 5-10%. It sounds like it might become more useful to bleed that extra bit of performance out of the XSX towards the end of the generation. But we're still essentially just celebrating being able to degrade our image somewhat to improve performance somewhat. Hardly earth shattering stuff.

When your chosen piece of hardware has no new first party games coming at launch and probably only 1 within the first year some people resort to talking about checklists of features that they don't totally understand and try to compare them to features that they aren't sure the competition has or not, it's just sad. When did people forget that gaming is about GAMES!! and we've seen gameplay from several first party PS5 games and they all look great, we've seen gameplay from one Xbox first party game and people trashed it like crazy and it wasn't even running on the console.
 
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