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[Explosive Zombie]

I understand that it was Rian Johnson's intent to make the movie all about learning from past failures, but I also believe he himself failed spectacularly at doing so in a convincing or believable way. I call it cynical and nihilistic because I believe that characterizes the approach that Johnson took. To me it was like he had an idea for an original movie that explored the themes you mentioned and decided to simply apply it all to the 8th Star Wars movie without a care in the world (or perhaps an active disdain) for the characters, lore, and internal logic that had been established up to that point.

Honestly, The Last Jedi may have worked as the introductory film to this new trilogy (with some changes, of course), but it made little sense as the sequel to TFA and what we knew about our characters by the end of that film. In the end, TLJ came across as a kind of vanity project for Johnson to explore some themes he had banging around in his mind with little care for where the story was going before he came on board or where it might go after his film ended. With how ROS turned out, I suspect even more that this is the truth of things.



Sorry, I didn't mean to insult you personally. I just thought what you were saying was ridiculous: namely that people generally don't understand storytelling or themes, don't want to accept Star Wars progressing beyond the OT, or that the deconstruction of Star Wars in TLJ was necessary for the franchise to be meaningful beyond the OT.

I know what the film's intended themes were. What I'm saying is that the director's approach and what actually transpired on screen in service of his attempt to convey those themes ultimately came across as cynical and nihilistic.

What was unconvincing or unbelievable about it? He made a movie about broadening the universe Star Wars explores to be about more than just one family lineage. The message of the movie is anyone can be special and it was meant to be a launching pad for Disney to continue making movies in this universe without feeling bound by the Skywalker dynasty. I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that he didn't care about the characters, lore or internal logic. People like to say because Luke threw down his saber in RotJ he had completed his arc but to set these films 30 years later, to have there even be a First Order and for Luke to be in hiding (all set up by TFA) means he failed somewhere. Johnson is exploring what happens with the traditional hero's journey if he's completed it and life goes on, does completing an arc mean he never has to wrestle with the dark side of himself ever again? Even momentarily and in reaction to seeing a future where everything he loved is destroyed? And if we're so concerned about characters having fulfilled arcs then why were so many perfectly okay with Han Solo being right back to the sort of person he was at the start of A New Hope, estranged from his wife, getting into hijinks, owing people money and now a deadbeat dad on top of all of it. If Luke briefly igniting a light saber and considering killing his nephew is betraying his arc then the sort of betrayal Solo represents should be something people scream over but they don't. Because it's not about logical progression from the story we say for most people, it's about seeing things like the things they loved and they liked Solo being this way, they just don't like Luke being a sad old hermit. Not liking Luke that way is 100% okay, just don't rationalize it to me as the film not getting the characters, Luke constantly wanted to give up in the OT and his temptation to the dark side was much bigger in the OT as well. What happens when you become an old man and everything you fought to stop happens all over again? Luke's character is a direct result of the Force Awakens existing at all. I also heavily disagree on lore and internal logic and have never seen a convincing argument for the idea that Johnson doesn't get those things.

Interesting you say that since the plot for TLJ was the plot of the first of the scripts Lucas sent Disney for his own idea for a trilogy, it would begin with Luke secluded on an island due to battling the dark side within himself, finding redemption by training a young girl to be a Jedi named Kira I believe. It even included his own art work of what the island should appear like which was actually used in large part. I'm not sure what you mean about what we know about the characters in TFA at the end of it, or why this film doesn't follow. What explanation was Johnson meant to come up with for why Luke is in hiding while planets are destroyed and Han is killed? Why was it so wrong of him to use the one Lucas himself provided? The idea that Johnson got to do what he wanted is baloney, btw, everything in these new films had to be approved by a committee to become canon meaning everything Johnson decided is now canon, he gave the film thematic depth but the level of control he allegedly had over the plot I think is wildly overstated. How RoS turned out has more to do with the exaggerated fan backlash to TLJ than the idea that Johnson hadn't set them up for a third film, but that's an unwinnable argument to an extent, I'd just easily say there's as much there that builds off TLJ (the connection between Rey and Kylo, force ghosts manipulating real world objects) as there is that feels like a repudiation (Rose Tico's role, Rey's lineage).

I mean I don't think what he said was ridiculous, every argument I get into about these films seems to fall into those categories. Did TFA and RoS really add stuff to make them more meaningful than the OT or were they largely just repeating the beats of the OT? We come together, good and bad, to defeat the Emperor but not by striking him down in anger AGAIN? I love Rise of Skywalker, but not because it's some brand new vision for the franchise. Because I also like seeing the same stories retold over and over, my defense of TLJ isn't predicated on it being the only way to do things, even if I think it's a better way. Heck, I might like Rise of Skywalker better even if I have more respect for TLJ.

You have yet to explain why they come across cynical and nihilistic, though. You seem to be claiming he's cynical about the Star Wars franchise is I guess the idea? But that also describes most fans these days, whether they were wronged by Ewoks, Jar Jar or TFA and if you really go back you have the divisive reactions at the time to Empire, Star Wars hasn't been a universally loved thing since the first film and nowadays I even see that get crap from prequel fans and other such types. Star Wars is too many things to too many people to appease them all, what Johnson did wasn't cynical or nihilistic, what he did was an attempt to broaden the scope of the franchise and it was the right thing to do, if we don't get past the Skywalkers we may never escape the level of entitlement this fan base has. Look at Mandalorian's reception for proof of that.

 

[Pumpkin Seeds]

I have a great sense of pity for RoS. It's trying so hard to be three movies at once to make up for the second movie and the little done with the first movie. Feels like the crew was assigned the job of salvaging Star Wars for the future.

Like the Rey reveal actually answers for the mary sue issues of her character. (As I think Stuckman pointed out, she's never ever even hurt in the films. No lost limbs or deep scars.) But it's also feels so much like the product of a meeting where someone shouted "COME UP WITH SOMETHING!"

 

[Deleted member 17706]

What was unconvincing or unbelievable about it? He made a movie about broadening the universe Star Wars explores to be about more than just one family lineage. The message of the movie is anyone can be special and it was meant to be a launching pad for Disney to continue making movies in this universe without feeling bound by the Skywalker dynasty.

The prequels already established that anyone could be special (Force users), as long as they have the right amount of midi-chlorians. Even with non Force-users, we've seen plenty of effective heroes throughout the movies. There was never any reason for Disney to feel bound by the Skywalker dynasty when telling stories, and their work outside of the main movies has demonstrated that they, in fact, do not.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that he didn't care about the characters, lore or internal logic. People like to say because Luke threw down his saber in RotJ he had completed his arc but to set these films 30 years later, to have there even be a First Order and for Luke to be in hiding (all set up by TFA) means he failed somewhere. Johnson is exploring what happens with the traditional hero's journey if he's completed it and life goes on, does completing an arc mean he never has to wrestle with the dark side of himself ever again? Even momentarily and in reaction to seeing a future where everything he loved is destroyed?

He could have failed in a believable way. It could have been basically the same situation. It would have been very easy to have Ben turn to the dark side without the assassination of the Luke Skywalker character in that scene where he briefly decided to murder his sister's child because he sensed darkness in him. It was completely ridiculous and shows a lack of understanding or active disdain for the character. Luke still could have wallowed in regret at his failure to restore the Jedi order and prevent his nephew from being tempted by the dark side, and proceeded to isolate himself on an island without turning into a cynical asshole. Again, it was in the execution where my issues with the movie lie.

And if we're so concerned about characters having fulfilled arcs then why were so many perfectly okay with Han Solo being right back to the sort of person he was at the start of A New Hope, estranged from his wife, getting into hijinks, owing people money and now a deadbeat dad on top of all of it. If Luke briefly igniting a light saber and considering killing his nephew is betraying his arc then the sort of betrayal Solo represents should be something people scream over but they don't.

I don't really understand this. Falling back to your old ways after having your family fall apart seems fairly believable to me. Now, if he had turned into a ruthless warlord like Jabba the Hut or something, that would have been the kind of crazy character assassination on the level we saw happen to Luke.

Because it's not about logical progression from the story we say for most people, it's about seeing things like the things they loved and they liked Solo being this way, they just don't like Luke being a sad old hermit. Not liking Luke that way is 100% okay, just don't rationalize it to me as the film not getting the characters, Luke constantly wanted to give up in the OT and his temptation to the dark side was much bigger in the OT as well. What happens when you become an old man and everything you fought to stop happens all over again? Luke's character is a direct result of the Force Awakens existing at all. I also heavily disagree on lore and internal logic and have never seen a convincing argument for the idea that Johnson doesn't get those things.

You say "constantly wanted to give up," but the Luke from the OT was constantly picking himself from tragedy after tragedy and carrying on, becoming stronger in the process.

Interesting you say that since the plot for TLJ was the plot of the first of the scripts Lucas sent Disney for his own idea for a trilogy, it would begin with Luke secluded on an island due to battling the dark side within himself, finding redemption by training a young girl to be a Jedi named Kira I believe. It even included his own art work of what the island should appear like which was actually used in large part.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the overall plot structure. It's all in the execution.

I'm not sure what you mean about what we know about the characters in TFA at the end of it, or why this film doesn't follow. What explanation was Johnson meant to come up with for why Luke is in hiding while planets are destroyed and Han is killed? Why was it so wrong of him to use the one Lucas himself provided?

Again, there were plenty of believable ways to put Luke on that planet in isolation without completely destroying his character. I highly doubt the Lucas version of this Luke Skywalker would have been similar to Rian Johnson's, but it doesn't matter.

The idea that Johnson got to do what he wanted is baloney, btw, everything in these new films had to be approved by a committee to become canon meaning everything Johnson decided is now canon, he gave the film thematic depth but the level of control he allegedly had over the plot I think is wildly overstated. How RoS turned out has more to do with the exaggerated fan backlash to TLJ than the idea that Johnson hadn't set them up for a third film, but that's an unwinnable argument to an extent, I'd just easily say there's as much there that builds off TLJ (the connection between Rey and Kylo, force ghosts manipulating real world objects) as there is that feels like a repudiation (Rose Tico's role, Rey's lineage).

So, wait, he had to get approval from Disney to supposedly make his movie about tearing the franchise away from stories of lineage, only to have the next movie be ROS, in which it's revealed that Rey is the granddaughter of Palpatine and, in the end, sort of merges with Leia (and maybe Kylo)'s spirit and claims the Skywalker name for herself?

I mean I don't think what he said was ridiculous, every argument I get into about these films seems to fall into those categories. Did TFA and RoS really add stuff to make them more meaningful than the OT or were they largely just repeating the beats of the OT?

No. I think the whole trilogy was a mess and a big waste of time for everyone. It actively takes away from the meaning of the OT and the epic struggle of those characters. In that narrow sense, the sequel trilogy is actually worse than prequels.

You have yet to explain why they come across cynical and nihilistic, though. You seem to be claiming he's cynical about the Star Wars franchise is I guess the idea?

Yes, exactly. He basically applied critical theory to Star Wars in an attempt to deconstruct it. One of the most egregious examples of that was the talk from the Benicio del Toro character basically explaining that some faceless bourgeoisie have apparently been funding both the resistance and the first order (and presumable the Empire before that) all along, and that the whole struggle is pointless.

But that also describes most fans these days, whether they were wronged by Ewoks, Jar Jar or TFA and if you really go back you have the divisive reactions at the time to Empire, Star Wars hasn't been a universally loved thing since the first film and nowadays I even see that get crap from prequel fans and other such types. Star Wars is too many things to too many people to appease them all, what Johnson did wasn't cynical or nihilistic, what he did was an attempt to broaden the scope of the franchise and it was the right thing to do, if we don't get past the Skywalkers we may never escape the level of entitlement this fan base has. Look at Mandalorian's reception for proof of that.

Maybe. For me, Star Wars has always been characterized by its sincerity. It's part of what drew me to the franchise as a kid. I, for one, wasn't looking for a postmodern deconstruction of its core concepts in the 8th of 9 movies. TLJ's themes would have been better explored in a side movie or, even better, a film not in the Star Wars franchise.

 

[prag16]

TLJ's themes would have been better explored in a side movie or, even better, a film not in the Star Wars franchise.

Bingo.

I also would have been okay with something going down this type of path far removed from the main saga. But indeed the 8th film of 9 in a 42 year arc was not the time or the place.

In reality Disney screwed themselves as soon as they didn't come out of (or hell, go into) TFA with a solid outline of framework. Rian is not at fault for that. Which is why KK needs to be fired. I don't want her involved in where the franchise goes moving forward.

As for what's next, I'd love to see a loose adaptation of the Darth Bane book trilogy. Great stuff. But that's just me. Might work. Enter as a streaming series than a movie trilogy though. Can't see them having an evil 'protagonist' on the big screen.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Kind of disappointed with the ROS Visual Dictionary.

They included information on every obscure thing you can imagine from the movie EXCEPT Palpatine.

There's absolutely nothing on him in the book but some character you see for a split second gets half a page.

Either they omitted his information to avoid too many spoilers if the book got into people's hands before the movie released or some other reason. Either way it's absurd to omit an entry ON THE MAIN FUCKING VILLAIN OF THE MOVIE!

 

[#Phonepunk#]

for all the folks saying "JJ didn't follow RJ's leads" i find that several of the more controversial choices in ROS are directly influenced by TLJ, and that JJ followed up on what Rian did first with his movie.

1) Force Healing - this is quite controversial, and honestly first debuted in Rian's film. early on we have Leia use the Force to keep herself alive in outer space. most of all, TLJ introduced the idea that using the force could damage someone's life force, this is why Luke dies while using the Force. previously, the Force had no direct impact on health or physical endurance, Yoda's "size matters not" a famous example, notice the little guy near death was not out of breath after lifting the X-Wing. post-TLJ, the Force can hurt, which when you follow that line up, only makes sense that it can also heal.

2) Force Teleportation - again controversial, tho i kind of like it, and it is a direct follow up to Rian's theme of Rey & Kylo having this special intertwined Force Skype Bond. TLJ shows us Force teleportation with the water drops and various other bits. JJ followed that naturally. some may say "but Snoke was orchestrating all that" but we know Snoke was full of shit and the villain who lies and manipulates. clearly they have some kind of Force Chemistry as depicted in both the first two films. which leads me to...

3) Reylo - TFA had Kylo and Rey at odds throughout the movie, they were at each other's throats, a typical villain-hero dynamic. TLJ on the other hand really egged on the Reylo theme in a far more direct way. memes were made about how "sexy" certain scenes were. the director himself feminized Rey's looks for her scenes with Kylo. note that she wears her hair is down around her shoulders when she goes to confront Kylo, rather than more androgynous pinned back look from TFA. this is called visual signalling, and it doesn't matter a whit if she "slams the door on him" later in a scene at the end of the movie, if she is still shown crying, emotion, changing her look, caring deeply for this man, for most of the runtime. IMO Rian is to blame for the Reylo direction. the payoff kiss at the end of ROS is intended as fan service for that Tumblr centric demographic Rian kicked up.

Rey w a more androgynous look in TFA

Rey femininized in TLJ

 

[DeafTourette]

for all the folks saying "JJ didn't follow RJ's leads" i find that several of the more controversial choices in ROS are directly influenced by TLJ, and that JJ followed up on what Rian did first with his movie.

1) Force Healing - this is quite controversial, and honestly first debuted in Rian's film. early on we have Leia use the Force to keep herself alive in outer space. most of all, TLJ introduced the idea that using the force could damage someone's life force, this is why Luke dies while using the Force. previously, the Force had no direct impact on health or physical endurance, Yoda's "size matters not" a famous example, notice the little guy near death was not out of breath after lifting the X-Wing. post-TLJ, the Force can hurt, which when you follow that line up, only makes sense that it can also heal.

2) Force Teleportation - again controversial, tho i kind of like it, and it is a direct follow up to Rian's theme of Rey & Kylo having this special intertwined Force Skype Bond. TLJ shows us Force teleportation with the water drops and various other bits. JJ followed that naturally. some may say "but Snoke was orchestrating all that" but we know Snoke was full of shit and the villain who lies and manipulates. clearly they have some kind of Force Chemistry as depicted in both the first two films. which leads me to...

3) Reylo - TFA had Kylo and Rey at odds throughout the movie, they were at each other's throats, a typical villain-hero dynamic. TLJ on the other hand really egged on the Reylo theme in a far more direct way. memes were made about how "sexy" certain scenes were. the director himself feminized Rey's looks for her scenes with Kylo. note that she wears her hair is down around her shoulders when she goes to confront Kylo, rather than more androgynous pinned back look from TFA. this is called visual signalling, and it doesn't matter a whit if she "slams the door on him" later in a scene at the end of the movie, if she is still shown crying, emotion, changing her look, caring deeply for this man, for most of the runtime. IMO Rian is to blame for the Reylo direction. the payoff kiss at the end of ROS is intended as fan service for that Tumblr centric demographic Rian kicked up.

Rey w a more androgynous look in TFA

Rey femininized in TLJ

Plus... The force healing is straight from the Expanded Universe...

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I have a great sense of pity for RoS. It's trying so hard to be three movies at once to make up for the second movie and the little done with the first movie. Feels like the crew was assigned the job of salvaging Star Wars for the future.

Like the Rey reveal actually answers for the mary sue issues of her character. (As I think Stuckman pointed out, she's never ever even hurt in the films. No lost limbs or deep scars.) But it's also feels so much like the product of a meeting where someone shouted "COME UP WITH SOMETHING!"

Stuckman is terrible, just wanted to say that. Also losing a limb would be pretty cliche at this point.

The prequels already established that anyone could be special (Force users), as long as they have the right amount of midi-chlorians. Even with non Force-users, we've seen plenty of effective heroes throughout the movies. There was never any reason for Disney to feel bound by the Skywalker dynasty when telling stories, and their work outside of the main movies has demonstrated that they, in fact, do not.

The prequels simply established a way to measure who was special, and the person who was special was still a Skywalker (to be fair it had to be but by making Anakin some kind of virgin birth created by the Force they pretty much make it even more clear the Skywalker lineage is more important than others). How has their work outside the main films proven that? The most you have is Mandalorian but even then they're relying on a guy who looks like Bobba Fett and a mini Yoda. This isn't the Marvel universe where you're going to suddenly have Guardians of the Galaxy thrown in, everything ties to the films you already know and love.

He could have failed in a believable way. It could have been basically the same situation. It would have been very easy to have Ben turn to the dark side without the assassination of the Luke Skywalker character in that scene where he briefly decided to murder his sister's child because he sensed darkness in him. It was completely ridiculous and shows a lack of understanding or active disdain for the character. Luke still could have wallowed in regret at his failure to restore the Jedi order and prevent his nephew from being tempted by the dark side, and proceeded to isolate himself on an island without turning into a cynical asshole. Again, it was in the execution where my issues with the movie lie.

That's not character assassination, if you really think his character is ruined because he briefly ignites a light saber then I guess you are he who are without sin casting the first stone because holy crap he actually shows a great deal of restraint only considering it when you realize what he visualizes happening in the future. By making Ben's turn connect to Luke it makes more sense for Luke to go into hiding and gives the characters more ties with each other and more meaning. It also explains why Kylo is so hot to find and kill Luke. No, YOU have a lack of understanding of the character! When Darth Vader taunted him that he'd kill his sister he went into an absolute rage, and he didn't just sense darkness in Kylo, he specifically says he sees everyone he ever loved dying at his hands! Your execution would leave the movie hollow and with less meaning, especially since we already saw Luke turn someone else from the Dark side, his father, why wouldn't he try to turn Kylo unless he knew he couldn't because he was the reason for it?

I don't really understand this. Falling back to your old ways after having your family fall apart seems fairly believable to me. Now, if he had turned into a ruthless warlord like Jabba the Hut or something, that would have been the kind of crazy character assassination on the level we saw happen to Luke.

The real reason is because you didn't care as much that Han fulfilled an arc in the OT as you did that Luke had. Not to mention you probably liked him being a regular old scumbag again. There's not even anything in the text of the film to suggest one thing preceded another, that he left Leia after they lost Ben as opposed to before. That part of Ben turning wasn't having an absentee deadbeat dad. Luke briefly considering killing his nephew is character assassination (because Luke has never before tried killing a family member, lol) but Han Solo adventuring like a scoundrel while his son tears the universe apart is cool by you? I'm trying to figure out what the disconnect is, why one is character assassination and another is perfectly fine. But all I've got coming to mind is that you didn't hero worship Han like you did Luke, you always saw the faults of Han and are fine with him reverting to those, but Luke showing his dark side even briefly is some form of character assassination, excellent.

You say "constantly wanted to give up," but the Luke from the OT was constantly picking himself from tragedy after tragedy and carrying on, becoming stronger in the process.

Yeah, I'm citing quotes like "it's impossible" "it's useless" etc. there are many instances of Luke seeing no path forward until someone else shows him in the OT. I don't really even know what you're saying, he deals with literally one tragedy, the death of his uncle and aunt, but that basically frees him up to do what he wanted, the idea of avenging them or something is barely mentioned. He wanted to leave before they died. We all know Luke persevered in the end, he did here, too, he just saw obstacles like lifting his X-wing with the force as impossible.

Again, there were plenty of believable ways to put Luke on that planet in isolation without completely destroying his character. I highly doubt the Lucas version of this Luke Skywalker would have been similar to Rian Johnson's, but it doesn't matter.

How did it completely destroy his character, anyways? You make a lot of arguments without any backing for why they're true. The Lucas version was a Luke struggling with the Dark side of the force, it was the Dark side that had him ignite the light saber.

So, wait, he had to get approval from Disney to supposedly make his movie about tearing the franchise away from stories of lineage, only to have the next movie be ROS, in which it's revealed that Rey is the granddaughter of Palpatine and, in the end, sort of merges with Leia (and maybe Kylo)'s spirit and claims the Skywalker name for herself?

You think spirits merged? That's quite the read on what happened considering the film in no way suggests such a thing lol. Also yeah, they did that but that's mostly due to Disney caving to fan outcry.

No. I think the whole trilogy was a mess and a big waste of time for everyone. It actively takes away from the meaning of the OT and the epic struggle of those characters. In that narrow sense, the sequel trilogy is actually worse than prequels.

Glad you can acknowledge that's a very narrow way to decide a film wasn't great. The whole point of TLJ is explaining why this trilogy doesn't lessen the OT by existing, Luke's character is basically you, thinking everything that came before was a waste because it's happening all over again. But that film was about how you learn from the past to forge a brighter future regardless of how bad things seem, the idea being just because you're redoing so many ideas in this trilogy doesn't mean you don't add new wrinkles that make it worthwhile. The problem is most the new wrinkles are the things people are most upset about.

Yes, exactly. He basically applied critical theory to Star Wars in an attempt to deconstruct it. One of the most egregious examples of that was the talk from the Benicio del Toro character basically explaining that some faceless bourgeoisie have apparently been funding both the resistance and the first order (and presumable the Empire before that) all along, and that the whole struggle is pointless.

I run into this problem a lot with people who don't like TLJ, they for some reason think the villains are the ones who are right. They think the film is about destroying the past because Kylo Ren says it and they think Del Toro's character was right about the war being pointless when he wasn't, he was there to add conflict to Finn's journey/arc/decisions. He's tempting Finn with the idea of embracing gray morality and it's a triumph for Finn that he rejects it. Somehow the protagonist rejecting these ideas doesn't get through to you guys, you somehow still think Rian's point is the point the villain who's wrong is making. It's a really weird way to approach film interpretation.

Maybe. For me, Star Wars has always been characterized by its sincerity. It's part of what drew me to the franchise as a kid. I, for one, wasn't looking for a postmodern deconstruction of its core concepts in the 8th of 9 movies. TLJ's themes would have been better explored in a side movie or, even better, a film not in the Star Wars franchise.

But the prequels you claim are better than these were also deconstructive. Simply having Vader be Luke's father was deconstructive! It's part of why it was such a huge twist at the time, it changed the dynamic from simple good vs evil that was set up by the original film and made the hero's journey more complicated! That you wanted mindless toy commercials is your prerogative but man, you gotta understand why so many of us prefer it this way.

 

[prag16]

The prequels simply established a way to measure who was special, and the person who was special was still a Skywalker (to be fair it had to be but by making Anakin some kind of virgin birth created by the Force they pretty much make it even more clear the Skywalker lineage is more important than others).

Yep, the Force is NOT for non-Skywalkers. As it is clearly established in the prequels, Mace Windu, Aayla Secura, Kit Fisto, and Yaddle are all tied to the powerful Skywalker lineage as blood relatives, and non-Skywalkers can't be special.

 

[Master Of Illusion]

Just got back from it.

My brain broke.

I'm not sure how to² ｐｒｏｃｅｓｓ　韻火ダ.

There's no reason there isn't a shot that lasts more than 5 seconds in this movie aside from visibly seeing the product of Darth JJ snorting a mountain of cocaine as he pulls shit out of his ass with an unbridled quickness to meet The Mouse's deadlines.

However, what does show up in this scrambled mess of imagery is awesome, going full blown anime for most of the runtime (if you look closely you can see white residue resembling Gunbuster's cel dirt pattern make its way onto the celluloid thanks in part to Bad Robot's precious Colombian supply). Some fucking stupid plot contrivances aside and lack of room to breathe, I feel like it's a more definite and satisfying ending than Return Of The Jedi, plus I feel it took more risks than Force Awakens: Not as many as The Last Jedi, but to ham what is essentially a fan-fiction this hard regardless of what hard drugs you're taking to get to this point earns a degree more respect than what could've been Return Redux (final shots echoing some additions I chose to ignore from the Special Editions aside).

I want a three hour extended version. There feels like there's 40 extra minutes left on the cutting room floor, some shots that could be rearranged to increase impact of certain moments, and I want to see it.

That said, here's where my gut is telling me this ranks.

1). The Empire Strikes Back
2). The Last Jedi
3). Revenge Of The Sith
4). A New Hope
5). Rogue One
6). The Rise Of Skywalker
7). The Force Awakens
8). Return Of The Jedi
9). Solo
10). Attack Of The Clones
11). The Phantom Menace


Now my retinas need to heal from watching this shit in Dolby. Fuck.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I run into this problem a lot with people who don't like TLJ, they for some reason think the villains are the ones who are right. They think the film is about destroying the past because Kylo Ren says it and they think Del Toro's character was right about the war being pointless when he wasn't, he was there to add conflict to Finn's journey/arc/decisions. He's tempting Finn with the idea of embracing gray morality and it's a triumph for Finn that he rejects it. Somehow the protagonist rejecting these ideas doesn't get through to you guys, you somehow still think Rian's point is the point the villain who's wrong is making. It's a really weird way to approach film interpretation.

The difference with the Del Toro line is that it wasn't just his opinion. We were shown a planet of the ultra-rich (who had basically never even been mentioned in the history of the franchised) and it was established in the canon that they were a bunch of moral-less warmongers that funded both sides to keep the conflict going and the big war bucks flowing in. It was garbage social commentary that didn't fit at all in a universe with man-made weapons that can blow up multiple planets in a single activation.

But the prequels you claim are better than these were also deconstructive. Simply having Vader be Luke's father was deconstructive! It's part of why it was such a huge twist at the time, it changed the dynamic from simple good vs evil that was set up by the original film and made the hero's journey more complicated! That you wanted mindless toy commercials is your prerogative but man, you gotta understand why so many of us prefer it this way.

I'm probably not going to bother responding to the rest of what you wrote, because you keep trying to read ulterior motives or spot "real reasons" behind what I wrote in response to you and that's just tiring to engage with.

But, no, Darth Vader turning out to be Luke's father is not a deconstruction of the monomyth. In fact, it is an element that very much ties it even closer to the Hero's Journey.

I'm certainly not asking for mindless toy commercials. I don't even watch Marvel superhero movies. I just appreciated the sincerity of the Star Wars universe, and having its mythological framework dismantled in a single a film with no other compelling grand narrative to replace it with was not something I particularly enjoyed.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

Just seen it. About as good as it could have been after TLJ. Hard to make a good trilogy with only 2 movies.

 

[DeafTourette]

The difference with the Del Toro line is that it wasn't just his opinion. We were shown a planet of the ultra-rich (who had basically never even been mentioned in the history of the franchised) and it was established in the canon that they were a bunch of moral-less warmongers that funded both sides to keep the conflict going and the big war bucks flowing in. It was garbage social commentary that didn't fit at all in a universe with man-made weapons that can blow up multiple planets in a single activation.



I'm probably not going to bother responding to the rest of what you wrote, because you keep trying to read ulterior motives or spot "real reasons" behind what I wrote in response to you and that's just tiring to engage with.

But, no, Darth Vader turning out to be Luke's father is not a deconstruction of the monomyth. In fact, it is an element that very much ties it even closer to the Hero's Journey.

I'm certainly not asking for mindless toy commercials. I don't even watch Marvel superhero movies. I just appreciated the sincerity of the Star Wars universe, and having its mythological framework dismantled in a single a film with no other compelling grand narrative to replace it with was not something I particularly enjoyed.

To further @Zefah 's point about the hero's journey and how Darth Vader is an integral part of it, think back to Heracles (aka Hercules). He didn't always know that Zeus was his father. When he found out, that was an integral part of his journey. It wasn't a deconstruction nor a subverted expectation.

See also Aqualad (kaldur'amm) and Black Manta in Young Justice. This isn't something that Lucas came up with... It's actually as old storytelling... Which is FAR older than George Lucas.

 

[DeafTourette]

Kevin Smith reviews it... I already planned on seeing ROS again next weekend but this solidified that I'm ALSO seeing it again THIS weekend!

 

[Durask]

Family wanted to see it so I ended up going.

In retrospect it's amazing that Disney could not do a better job with SW. All the things they could do and they lazily remade the original trilogy.

 

[Thaedolus]

Ya know, Lando made that movie for me. Yes, fan servicey inclusion. Yes, billy dee is old as fuck and can’t walk anymore but...his whole role was to bitch slap the cynical nihilism of the last movie into the ground, and I appreciated that. I liked Kylo/Ben’s arc and how it tied back to his parents fairly well. Would’ve been better if Carrie Fischer were still around but I think they did a good job with what they had to work with.

After what TLJ did, I think this was pretty ok. Granted my expectations were below ground but whatever, it was ok fun and I didn’t have a bunch of “WTF is going on here?!”moments like Rose’s exposition on weapons manufacturers being the real big bads....

meh, should’ve made a Thrawn trilogy

 

[Explosive Zombie]

The difference with the Del Toro line is that it wasn't just his opinion. We were shown a planet of the ultra-rich (who had basically never even been mentioned in the history of the franchised) and it was established in the canon that they were a bunch of moral-less warmongers that funded both sides to keep the conflict going and the big war bucks flowing in. It was garbage social commentary that didn't fit at all in a universe with man-made weapons that can blow up multiple planets in a single activation.



I'm probably not going to bother responding to the rest of what you wrote, because you keep trying to read ulterior motives or spot "real reasons" behind what I wrote in response to you and that's just tiring to engage with.

But, no, Darth Vader turning out to be Luke's father is not a deconstruction of the monomyth. In fact, it is an element that very much ties it even closer to the Hero's Journey.

I'm certainly not asking for mindless toy commercials. I don't even watch Marvel superhero movies. I just appreciated the sincerity of the Star Wars universe, and having its mythological framework dismantled in a single a film with no other compelling grand narrative to replace it with was not something I particularly enjoyed.

When you don't adequately explain your reasons people will come up with real reasons. For instance why exploring how the monomyth works without special parents is more deconstructive than having the parent be the villain. DJ being right that the same people fund both sides makes it a bigger victory for Finn when he doesn't succumb to such grey morality. For the message of the film is the opposite of cynical nihilism.

To further @Zefah 's point about the hero's journey and how Darth Vader is an integral part of it, think back to Heracles (aka Hercules). He didn't always know that Zeus was his father. When he found out, that was an integral part of his journey. It wasn't a deconstruction nor a subverted expectation.

See also Aqualad (kaldur'amm) and Black Manta in Young Justice. This isn't something that Lucas came up with... It's actually as old storytelling... Which is FAR older than George Lucas.

Zeus is not a Villain of Hercules. The first film fit the monomyth fine with the son of a great father going after the man who killed his father. By making the villain his father they altered the monomyth. Whether or not anyone did that before George Lucas doesn't change my point.

 

[JLMC469]

Trying to watch TLJ, GOD this movie is awful. So much forced comedy that isn’t funny.

Why is Luke such a wimp?!?!?!

Leia flying in space still looks horrible. Now the force gives you superpowers?

 

[GreyHorace]

 

[JLMC469]

What a horrible idea .

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Ya know, Lando made that movie for me. Yes, fan servicey inclusion. Yes, billy dee is old as fuck and can’t walk anymore but...his whole role was to bitch slap the cynical nihilism of the last movie into the ground, and I appreciated that. I liked Kylo/Ben’s arc and how it tied back to his parents fairly well. Would’ve been better if Carrie Fischer were still around but I think they did a good job with what they had to work with.

After what TLJ did, I think this was pretty ok. Granted my expectations were below ground but whatever, it was ok fun and I didn’t have a bunch of “WTF is going on here?!”moments like Rose’s exposition on weapons manufacturers being the real big bads....

meh, should’ve made a Thrawn trilogy

Billy Dee was great but it was Ian McDiarmand that stole the show for me. I swear if it wasn't for Palpatine coming back I would have liked this a lot less.

Who would've thought that after ROTJ the Emperor would become SW most beloved villain.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

"The working-class everyperson winning by saving what we love."

Yuck. I don't think I'll ever understand these people who want to take franchises that are all about the fantastic and heroic and dismantle them to be about class struggle and ordinary people.

I mean, I can certainly enjoy stories about ordinary people fighting for what they love, but I don't get the desire to insert those stories into existing franchises that are historically about completely different things. Do something original for god's sake instead of trying to take an existing franchise and make it everything for everyone.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

Yes the workingclass military extremist who will tase you after accusing you of being a traitor and drag your incapacitated body into a forced conflict. Then later she drives a spaceship into you and calls you a dummy.

Dumbest fucking character in any of these films. Jar Jar was so much better.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

When you don't adequately explain your reasons people will come up with real reasons. For instance why exploring how the monomyth works without special parents is more deconstructive than having the parent be the villain. DJ being right that the same people fund both sides makes it a bigger victory for Finn when he doesn't succumb to such grey morality. For the message of the film is the opposite of cynical nihilism.

I don't think I can ever adequately explain my reasons to you, because I suspect you fundamentally disagree and thus will only read my motives in a cynical way.

He was deconstructing the Skywalker saga by telling Rey (and fans) to stop caring about lineage. I think it was terribly misguided, because lineage had already been proven to not matter that much in the franchise, and we already knew that people from humble beginnings (both Force-wielders and non) can go on to do incredible things in this universe, so it was very much a "who are you even talking to?" moment for me. Came across more as an an attack on JJ for setting up the hint of special lineage in TFA than anything else.

You know what he could have done to really drive home the message of lineage not mattering? Maybe giving Finn a bigger role in the film and delivering on his hints of Force sensitivity and lightsaber proficiency instead of sidelining him to that nonsense storyline he got with Rose, which seemed to only serve the purpose of letting Rian Johnson do some social commentary, like "Child slave labor bad!"(yeah, no shit, maybe don't use the character that was abducted to become a child soldier as the conduit for that message). "Rich people bad!" "Fight for those you love!" (yeah, Finn already did that in the first movie, and this new character shares zero chemistry with him).

And yeah, he did use DJ's message to give Finn a big moment of reaffirming his convictions, but in the process he just shits on the internal logic of the universe. That there is this previously unseen group of ultra-rich people, who fund both sides of the great conflict has disastrous consequences to the hierarchy and power balance previously established. It's just cynical as all fuck to tell viewers that, yes, even in this fantastical universe of space wizards, in the end, it's the capitalists who are the true villains! Just like how he used the lightspeed suicide bombing to facilitate a moment of heroic sacrifice, it just shows that Rian Johnson hasn't a care in the world about any kind of internal logical consistency.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

He was deconstructing the Skywalker saga by telling Rey (and fans) to stop caring about lineage. I think it was terribly misguided, because lineage had already been proven to not matter that much in the franchise, and we already knew that people from humble beginnings (both Force-wielders and non) can go on to do incredible things in this universe, so it was very much a "who are you even talking to?" moment for me. Came across more as an an attack on JJ for setting up the hint of special lineage in TFA than anything else.

it was for me as well. who Rey's parents were was a point of meta speculation but not in the text of the first film. the drama was in whether or not they were coming back, which was actually resolved in that film. whether her parents were famous or not was never part of JJ's first entry.

so when Rian kept banging on about it, it just felt like his pet issue that he crammed into the movie. Rey now "Needs someone to show me my place in all this" which... yeah, that has nothing to do with the entire setup of TFA and why the Resistance was looking for Luke. just a weird way to completely change character motivations. we are introduced to Rey as a self sufficient scavenger who survived on her own in an incredibly hostile place, and yet at the start of the second movie, she is weeping about "Her place in all this"? this powerful self sufficient character now needs a daddy figure, and a famous one at that, at least according to Rian. the character of Rey's prior motivations were swept under the rug so Rian could pretend she wanted Luke as a father figure for some reason.

what really pisses me off is Kylo/Rey's whole "They're nobody" speech, because it doesn't really explain anything or even provide some deep revelation, it's a handwave. "nobody" is not an answer, it's a vague line meant to mean whatever the audience sees. obviously they are real people who lived and died and have names, but they aren't important if they don't fit Rian's "theme" of lineage. so they were "nobody"? so now Rey is no longer just hoping they come back for her, and she is no longer wanting someone to "show her her place in all this", she wants a famous family?

see, i couldn't buy that. it made no sense for the character. why would she care if her parents were famous or not? fact is, she shouldn't, and from everything we have seen, she doesn't. at this point it isn't a movie about these characters, it is a movie about the property itself and meta commentary. Rian is an extremely online person, and the Critic class with which he has a symbiotic blowjob relationship are also extremely online people, so it kind of makes sense they would celebrate a narrative that is addressed to the Extremely Online. personally i never use Twitter. this was a movie written for Twitter.

for me the nihilism lies here. the reality, the truth of her parents does not matter. their humanity doesn't matter. it is their fame that matters, whether or not they are special. it's not as if TFA was spent with Rey telling others how amazing her parents were and how important and so this is a shocking revelation. she just wanted them back. Rian bulldozed over that very human story, mistreating the main character and disregarding all her previous character building in order to tell his meta critique and stick it in the eye of certain fans.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

it was for me as well. who Rey's parents were was a point of meta speculation but not in the text of the first film. the drama was in whether or not they were coming back, which was actually resolved in that film. whether her parents were famous or not was never part of JJ's first entry.

so when Rian kept banging on about it, it just felt like his pet issue that he crammed into the movie. Rey now "Needs someone to show me my place in all this" which... yeah, that has nothing to do with the entire setup of TFA and why the Resistance was looking for Luke. just a weird way to completely change character motivations. we are introduced to Rey as a self sufficient scavenger who survived on her own in an incredibly hostile place, and yet at the start of the second movie, she is weeping about "Her place in all this"? this powerful self sufficient character now needs a daddy figure, and a famous one at that, at least according to Rian. the character of Rey's prior motivations were swept under the rug so Rian could pretend she wanted Luke as a father figure for some reason.

what really pisses me off is Kylo/Rey's whole "They're nobody" speech, because it doesn't really explain anything or even provide some deep revelation, it's a handwave. "nobody" is not an answer, it's a vague line meant to mean whatever the audience sees. obviously they are real people who lived and died and have names, but they aren't important if they don't fit Rian's "theme" of lineage. so they were "nobody"? so now Rey is no longer just hoping they come back for her, and she is no longer wanting someone to "show her her place in all this", she wants a famous family?

see, i couldn't buy that. it made no sense for the character. why would she care if her parents were famous or not? fact is, she shouldn't, and from everything we have seen, she doesn't. at this point it isn't a movie about these characters, it is a movie about the property itself and meta commentary. Rian is an extremely online person, and the Critic class with which he has a symbiotic blowjob relationship are also extremely online people, so it kind of makes sense they would celebrate a narrative that is addressed to the Extremely Online. personally i never use Twitter. this was a movie written for Twitter.

for me the nihilism lies here. the reality, the truth of her parents does not matter. their humanity doesn't matter. it is their fame that matters, whether or not they are special. it's not as if TFA was spent with Rey telling others how amazing her parents were and how important and so this is a shocking revelation. she just wanted them back. Rian bulldozed over that very human story, mistreating the main character and disregarding all her previous character building in order to tell his meta critique and stick it in the eye of certain fans.

Rey's parents didn't even have a check mark! Written for the Twitter audience, indeed.

That's my main problem with the film. The whole thing comes across more as meta commentary of what Rian Johnson thinks is important than an actual story in the Star Wars universe. It explains why he shows such a lack of regard for making any of it internally consistent. It's just a vessel for him to talk to the his audience (and critics, more importantly.

I hear he's gone on to do basically the same exercise of genre deconstruction and political/social commentary for Extremely Online people with Knives Out, but at least that was an original story. I like whodunnits and he got an impressive line up of actors to sign onto his film, so I'll probably check it out eventually.

 

[michaelius]

This was amazing train wreck I expected it will be bad after TLJ but they overdid themselves

Disney made impossible happen - I started considering prequels as not so bad

My current rating for whole saga from best to worst: 5>4>6>3>1>7>2>8>=9

 

[#Phonepunk#]

like it or not, JJ was going to have to address her parents in the follow up to VIII. "nobody" is not an answer. "junkers" is something they did, it is like saying Rey is "a scavenger". this is not descriptive of who these people were and where they were from. the identity of Rey's parents was hyped up twice in TLJ, with it being a central theme in both the overly dramatic & vague mirror and throne scenes, clearly it would have to be addressed by JJ. this is one of the few leads Rian left him, ironically.

if anything Rian's nonanswer only asks more questions. since their fame is now the main question, them "not being a part of this story", it begs the question of why they were unknown, and why is this such a big deal in the first place? their unknown identity is makes them special, the "nobody" ness makes them special. if their identities truly had no impact on the greater narrative then it would be fine to say "they were Sohal and Leela Zeebu" or whatever and leave it at that. this isn't what happened. the director repeatedly teased reveals, only heightening the importance of their identity. by purposefully hiding their names Rian just piled on the mystery box.

so JJ now had this issue of integrating two competing narratives around Rey's parents: (1) Rey's natural desire to simply be with her parents, which he set up in TFA, and (2) Rian's meta desire to fool fan theories, superimposed onto Rey as "her parent's identities are hidden". by the third film the movies have repeatedly teased her parent's identities and hidden them. why would someone hide their identity? two real world reasons for this are because people want them dead (witness protection), or to avoid undue attention (child of a famous actor changing last name to avoid attention)?

given all this, it makes sense that, given the SW universe, the political machinations and history of hiding children away, this ultimately would be the choice made for Rey's parents. their identities were hidden away due to political assassination plots. this is far more relatable/interesting than them being random nobodies who you should just not think about. ROS had a lot to contend with and i think this is one of the better choices at attempting to tie this mess together. the irony of Palpatine winning kind of makes me love it even more, as this is the conclusion to the trilogy as no longer told by the independent film Rebel Lucas, but by the massive corporate Empire that actively kills that kind of filmmaking. to have the Emperor sort of in a way win in the Empire canon is suiting and funny and almost subversive i'd say on JJ's part.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I'm not sure why I argue with people who don't know what internal logic consistency even is and can in no way demonstrate it truly existing in this franchise prior to Rian Johnson coming along. We get it you wanted Finn to be the hero because he's a man and Rey is a woman. we also get that you for some reason think the prequels establish anyone can be special when the prequels turn Anakin into a chosen one that has been prophesized and is a virgin birth. None of that stuff is talked about in the original trilogy the prequels are the entire reason Rian Johnson felt the need to get away from special lineages. What could be more cynical than the suggestion that the prophesized chosen one is to spend decades murdering the innocent and blowing up planets before finally throwing a guy down a chute saving everyone just not everyone he killed already. And there's no teasr that Rey has special parents all the film makes clear is that she was left alone on the planet and her parents haven't returned for her and JJ mined that for the thematic of her looking for her parents in other people like Han Solo and Leia. Rian picked up on those themes with a movie where she needed to realize that she needed to stop relying on parents and rely on herself. But you're misunderstanding arcs seems par for the course considering you didn't understand fins at all in the force awakens even though he says it out loud that he was only there for Rey at the end you think he was already a selfless hero trying to help the resistance or something why else would you assume the arc he gets his pointless in Rian's film. It was getting into the idea that is valiant as it is to be a hero for someone you care about it's even more noble to fight for a cause.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

We get it you wanted Finn to be the hero because he's a man and Rey is a woman.

I really wish you would stop with these cynical and, honestly, offensive interpretations. I liked Rey as the hero and protagonist and thought she was one of the best parts of this whole trilogy. If anything, I wanted to see less of the OT characters and more adventures of Rey, Finn, and Poe.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I really wish you would stop with these cynical and, honestly, offensive interpretations. I liked Rey as the hero and protagonist and thought she was one of the best parts of this whole trilogy. If anything, I wanted to see less of the OT characters and more adventures of Rey, Finn, and Poe.

it's a common thing among people in this thread the claim that Finn should have been the hero if you're not a part of that argument even though you said they should have explored his alleged lightsaber proficiency and for sensitivity more then I apologize for lumping you in but you're mistaken and blaming Ryan for his sidelining considering he's been sidelined by JJ and both films he's been in as well. So much of what the Last Jedi is blamed for are crimes the force awakens already committed like Finn getting his ass beat by kylo Ren. At least Rian gave him a win.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

it's a common thing among people in this thread the claim that Finn should have been the hero if you're not a part of that argument even though you said they should have explored his alleged lightsaber proficiency and for sensitivity more then I apologize for lumping you in but you're mistaken and blaming Ryan for his sidelining considering he's been sidelined by JJ and both films he's been in as well. So much of what the Last Jedi is blamed for are crimes the force awakens already committed like Finn getting his ass beat by kylo Ren. At least Rian gave him a win.

He did a ton in TFA and I don't think losing to Kylo Ren invalidates the significance of his role at all. He fought valiantly and managed to wound Kylo, allowing Rey to ultimately defeat him in her subsequent battle. If anything his loss and injury set him up for a huge growth opportunity in the second film. I left TFA thinking Rey and Finn would be dual protagonists going forward, learning how to use the force together, but yeah, he just kind of fizzled out.

 

[LaughingStock]

Trying to watch TLJ, GOD this movie is awful. So much forced comedy that isn’t funny.

Why is Luke such a wimp?!?!?!

Leia flying in space still looks horrible. Now the force gives you superpowers?

It kind of always did? If you can lift rocks with your mind why wouldn't you be able to lift your own body?
I agree that the scene looks awkward. But in my opinion there's nothing absurd about it.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

He did a ton in TFA and I don't think losing to Kylo Ren invalidates the significance of his role at all. He fought valiantly and managed to wound Kylo, allowing Rey to ultimately defeat him in her subsequent battle. If anything his loss and injury set him up for a huge growth opportunity in the second film. I left TFA thinking Rey and Finn would be dual protagonists going forward, learning how to use the force together, but yeah, he just kind of fizzled out.

I mean Chewbacca's the one who severely wounds him. Finn probably only gets to fight him at all so they could use that shot and trailers of him with a lightsaber and pull the rug out from under people when it's actually Rey. Classic JJ Abrams move.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I mean Chewbacca's the one who severely wounds him. Finn probably only gets to fight him at all so they could use that shot and trailers of him with a lightsaber and pull the rug out from under people when it's actually Rey. Classic JJ Abrams move.

Am I imagining that this happened?

 

[JLMC469]

It kind of always did? If you can lift rocks with your mind why wouldn't you be able to lift your own body?
I agree that the scene looks awkward. But in my opinion there's nothing absurd about it.

For starters not even GOKU can survive in outer space .

 

[PanzerAzel]

DGAF, girl’s a babe. Would watch.

 

[JLMC469]

Am I imagining that this happened?

That fight still doesn't make sense.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

That fight still doesn't make sense.

Ehh... they certainly could have sold Kylo's injured state better, but I think the idea of him having been shot by a powerful weapon immediately beforehand leading to his being barely beaten down by two desperate Force sensitives with a Lightsaber is not that out of the question.

 

[LaughingStock]

For starters not even GOKU can survive in outer space .

Which i alway found stupid. Goku is pretty much a god. He can fly at insane speeds, survive gravity hundreds of times stronger than earth's without having his bones turned to jelly. He can even teleport himself to anywhere in the universe but he can't survive in the vacuum of space? Nonsense.
But anyway, different franchises, different rules.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Am I imagining that this happened?

A grazed shoulder is not the reason Ray was able to beat him. Even his more seriously wounding from Chewbacca is not the reason she won. as established by empire strikes back your ability with the force has more to do with your patience belief in yourself and other such Zen Buddhist type stuff unless your dark side and then the power comes from things like anger and negative emotion kylo Ren didn't know how to feel at that point after what happened with his father. He was not at his peak state in any sense of the word.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Which i alway found stupid. Goku is pretty much a god. He can fly at insane speeds, survive gravity hundreds of times stronger than earth's without having his bones turned to jelly. He can even teleport himself to anywhere in the universe but he can't survive in the vacuum of space? Nonsense.
But anyway, different franchises, different rules.

even a normal human can survive in the vacuum of space for up to four or five minutes anyone can look this up and if you can lift rocks in the atmosphere you can certainly use the force to pull yourself somewhere in an environment like space. we wouldn't need much inertia at all to move an object in space because of the gravity

 

[JLMC469]

Ehh... they certainly could have sold Kylo's injured state better, but I think the idea of him having been shot by a powerful weapon immediately beforehand leading to his being barely beaten down by two desperate Force sensitives with a Lightsaber is not that out of the question.

He is still an experienced fighter that got bested by Rey (who never held a lightsaber in her life, never had any training and doesn't know anything about the force).

 

[JLMC469]

even a normal human can survive in the vacuum of space for up to four or five minutes anyone can look this up and if you can lift rocks in the atmosphere you can certainly use the force to pull yourself somewhere in an environment like space. we wouldn't need much inertia at all to move an object in space because of the gravity

I read an article in Businesses Insider (I believe it was from 2017) that stated that a human being will pass out in 15 seconds and die in 90 seconds.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

He is still an experienced fighter that got bested by Rey (who never held a lightsaber in her life, never had any training and doesn't know anything about the force).

the staff she uses isn't terribly different from using a lightsaber and the way she swings it and uses it was similar to how she use the staff though others believe how she used it is similar to the way palpatine fights in revenge of the sith which could he one of the few signs JJ Abrams actually planned such a thing. Colin trevorrow claims that was JJ's idea II he signed on.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I read an article in Businesses Insider (I believe it was from 2017) that stated that a human being will pass out in 15 seconds and die in 90 seconds.

I was going by scientific American but if you think business insider is the better source you go for it either way we are talkin about space wizards in a series that has explosions and sound in space

 

[JLMC469]

I was going by scientific American but if you think business insider is the better source you go for it either way we are talkin about space wizards in a series that has explosions and sound in space

Business Insider isn't just about business...

and a lot of their articles are from external sources.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

the staff she uses isn't terribly different from using a lightsaber and the way she swings it and uses it was similar to how she use the staff though others believe how she used it is similar to the way palpatine fights in revenge of the sith which could he one of the few signs JJ Abrams actually planned such a thing. Colin trevorrow claims that was JJ's idea II he signed on.

Yeah, I really never found her fighting abilities against Kylo Ren in that scene to be all that crazy. It could have been sold better in the performances (particularly Kylo Ren's weakened state), of course, but her background and what we know of how the Force can suddenly manifest in people makes it believable in my opinion.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

lots of people are complaining about a lack of Rose in this. someone should make a video where she is in ROS. it starts off showing Finn and Jannah leading the cavalry charge of space horses across the Star Destroyer. then Rose comes in on a Fathier and t-bones everyone, killing them all. the End. Written by Era.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

lots of people are complaining about a lack of Rose in this. someone should make a video where she is in ROS. it starts off showing Finn and Jannah leading the cavalry charge of space horses across the Star Destroyer. then Rose comes in on a Fathier and t-bones everyone, killing them all. the End. Written by Era.

it's really weird how they're counting the run time she's in it would they do the same for boba Fett or wedge Antilles or admiral ackbar or plenty of other fan favorite characters who don't have a lot of screen time?