jm89
Member
"Most played" isn't just what his using though, his mixing sales and user count. He did it again today aswell in his latest tweet.
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Starfield is No.1 in the UK boxed charts. Almost identical launch to Diablo 4
Mr Reasonable
Completely Unreasonable
This is still going? Another totally insane 1000 post thread incoming because a guy said a lot of big games came out in 2023 and one of them is Starfield.
Edit: sorry this triggers you, guys, but you really ought to take a break.
Edit: sorry this triggers you, guys, but you really ought to take a break.
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MarkMe2525
Member
I realize context can be hard.
"Throw in Game Pass… this might be the biggest launch of 2023. And that’s saying something"
Can you buy games through gamepass? Since the answer is no, is it even possible to talk about anything other than engagement when through the lense of gamepass? Since that answer is no, there is your answer
MarkMe2525
Member
Yes, because they all add up to a rough idea of total players. If you want the number of total players, it requires you add sold copies and players through any other means.Twitter by its very nature "compresses" ideas by limiting the total numbers of characters. Being able to pick up on context clues is vital if you are to engage with the platform. If you refuse to or are unable to do so, then you are going to find yourself in constant confusion.
jm89
Member
So if we go by total player count will f2p games count now? Honkai: star rail had a massive launch this year.
Twitter by its very nature "compresses" ideas by limiting the total numbers of characters. Being able to pick up on context clues is vital if you are to engage with the platform. If you refuse to or are unable to do so, then you are going to find yourself in constant confusion.
Twitter's limitations have nothing to do with why people are criticizing the comparison. There's a popular meme with a kid biting his medal and pouring champagne on himself while standing in 3rd place. It sums up the comparison perfectly and can explain the pushback better than words could ever express.
Twitter by its very nature "compresses" ideas by limiting the total numbers of characters. Being able to pick up on context clues is vital if you are to engage with the platform. If you refuse to or are unable to do so, then you are going to find yourself in constant confusion.
There may be a day when engagement and financial success are synonyms. But in an age where the biggest F2P games are still judged by how much MtX they sell, and video streaming companies are throwing engagement out the window in favor of higher prices / more ads / limited number of concurrent streams, it seems clear those two words are not synonyms yet.
MarkMe2525
Member
Maybe, I'm not arguing the validity of such a stance. One have to draw lines in the sand somewhere to gain insight to relative success. I imagine, most people would assume he is referring to "premium" content, but some Karen could argue about the definition of that as well.
Regardless, misrepresenting his statement is not productive. He said what he said, you may not agree with the significance he is placing on engagement, but the engagement is real.
Victor Omega
Member
I'm calling everyone who make a starfiled thread a Stanfield.
I think people are going too far giving Chris flack for his first tweet when he just meant it in terms of it performing well physically despite gamepass and mostly a digital platform. Whether the ratios with Diablo 4 is also true for Starfield remains to be seen but we'll see.
The comparison he made of players to sales of other games though was a little daft because they're not comparable at all just as they aren't for f2p games. He was really forcing a comparison there. A sale and player count isn't the same at all. Not even in terms of paying subs.
The comparison he made of players to sales of other games though was a little daft because they're not comparable at all just as they aren't for f2p games. He was really forcing a comparison there. A sale and player count isn't the same at all. Not even in terms of paying subs.
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jm89
Member
Lol so for total user count the line should be drawn where? At the gamepass line? Give me a break.
Never denied the engagnment is not real, it should be as it was given away on a subscription service that possibly has 25 million+ subs.
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MarkMe2525
Member
I would agree that the game is changing, and no one company really knows what they are doing. A few companies have more or less stumble into success, and even they will tell you the criteria required for success still an unknown.
Your meme example is short sighted or maybe not as descriptive of the current gaming market as you believe. The bets being made today by some companies is that they will capture more revenue long term. To tie it to your example, they are betting that they may lose the sprint, but they win the marathon. Also, this console war mentality of "if you aren't first, you are last" only exists in the minds of these console warriors, and doesn't represent reality.
This also suggest that the "old ways" of judging a games success, may not hold as much importance in the near future. I don't find it odd at all that you have people with different ideas of success.
MarkMe2525
Member
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"Misrepresenting his statement is not productive""Given away" on a paid subscription service..
jm89
Member
"Given away" on a paid subscription service..
What where you saying here again?
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Similar to D4 and Starfield boxed copies are just Xbox. And lots of gamers will play it on GP which doesn't even show up in boxed sales numbers.
The meme I described was offered in relation to the comparison at issue, not the current gaming market. Perhaps a better example would have been someone claiming to be a champion in a race against themselves.
That said, why are you implying I am console warring. I'm not trying to convince you that the game was bad, nor am I suggesting that it was a commercial failure. I just don't believe that it's reasonable to claim success by pointing to engagement in this context. If engagement is the metric, then a game should be judged against games with the same or lesser cost of access in my view. I would have this view regardless of platform.
MarkMe2525
Member
I don't agree at all. If you are asking specific questions about number of sold through licenses, or upfront revenue then sure, don't compare gamepass numbers to other traditional store fronts, but that's not what was stated. If we are talking largest as in volume of people playing, then there is nothing wrong with all encompassing comparisons.
The question matters.
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MarkMe2525
Member
Exactly what I'm saying. I'm glad we are on the same page on something.
Mr Moose
Member
Series X*
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
That's not what the thread is about though. And this is also not what Chris Dring was talking about.
Otherwise, games like Fortnite and Counterstrike etc. would always appear on top.
MarkMe2525
Member
Fortnite and Counterstrike did not launch in 2023 so those games are irrelevant to the statement Chris made, that is if you meant for me to consider those specific games. Also, there were no specific qualifiers he gave, but context leads me to BELIEVE that he is referring to games that not only are on subscription services, but can be purchased in traditional store fronts.
What he did state was "that if you take into account traditional sales, and then "Throw in gamepass" it MIGHT be the biggest launch of 2023." He is speaking of total player engagement. That's the only perspective in which gamepass makes sense.
Again, for the people on the back. At no point did I say this is the best way to judge success. At no point did I agree Starfield should be considered the most successful launch of 2023. My point originally (i'm sure it has deviated due to me responding to all sorts of responses) was to clarify the very specific point Chris was making. It was and still is clear that people are not understanding or are purposefully being obtuse.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
Nah. He walked right into this mess with deliberate wording. His subsequent posts double down on it. Claiming he wasn't comparing those games.........while he compared those games. It's time for folks to stop choking on sand and take the Ls where due.
I don't know what Starfield's numeric expectations are/were and won't claim to, but this "please be nice" crap is nonsense.
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
For context, Starfield Series X copies only, outsold Diablo 4 PS5+Series X physical copies. Which is great in itself.
But then you add the context that Xbox games tend to sell more digitally anyway.
The game has been pretty successful in the UK.
I was referring to this and only this:
"God of War Ragnarok: 5m in a week. Pokemon Scarlet/Violet: 10m in a weekend. Hogwarts Legacy: 12m in 2 weeks. Zelda: 10m in a weekend. Diablo 4: about 9m in a week. Now Starfield: 6m players in 2 days. It really has been 12 months of big games doing mega numbers in record time"
When I read a list of items setting records, then I would expect the list of things to be actually competing for the same records. That is not being obtuse. That is not failing to understand anything. I understand the situation just fine, and do not agree with a claim made about it. Nothing more, nothing less.
It's an error to say in 2 days too even when that game is using a different metric. It was in 1 week.
MarkMe2525
Member
Admittedly, this is me reading the "tea leaves", but I BELIEVE to take the perspective of content on streaming platform's is "given away" is antiquated and incorrect. It ignores the fact that it is a mechanism designed to extract money from its customers, and people give companies their money specifically to play these games (such as starfield). Times are changing and undoubtedly so will a companies measure of success IF subscription gaming continues to become more prolific. I want to be clear that I am not claiming to have the answer, but this ties back to what Chris tweeted. He was measuring its launch success with engagement.
Yes, subscriptions reduce friction to play (that's the sales pitch), but players have to choose to redirect their time and effort to any particular title if one at all. This data should not be ignored. I promise you Sony, Nintendo, Xbox, Ubisoft, EA, apple, and Google are all paying close attention.
I am not blind to the fact that more people will play a game they had no intention of purchasing, but that is a feature...not a bug. Does MS have an advantage in potential player engagement when they release a game on gamepass, for sure. Again, a feature not a bug.
demigod
and
PropellerEar
I have nearly 20 notifications just from you two. Would ya'll like to join the conversation? You both are welcome to.
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DrFigs
Member
i'm not really sure, it seems wrong to compare sales to gamepass downloads. but maybe it isn't.
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Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Did God of War Ragnarok or Pokemon Scarlet and Violet release in 2023? No, they were both released in 2022. So why did Chris Dring include that in his list?
Chris knew what he was doing perfectly. There's no need to justify him.
jm89
Member
Metrics can't be applied that way to measure success by comparing direct sales and user counts on a subs service.
Will he continue looking at "engagement" in his report where he talks about physical digital sales? Of course he wont, cause he never does these comparisons.
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MarkMe2525
Member
Because you don't like it? Just playing devils advocate here, but metrics/ statistics can be applied in any which way you see fit, what matters is the question. If the question is how many played a particular game, then you would absolutely lump them together. By extension, if that is how someone defines their success, there ya go. Frankly, our opinions on the validty of such a statement are less than worthless, in that they are a waste of time.
I don't know what this means. I don't know who this guy is nor what type of content he produces. But again, if the question asked calls for the comparison, then it will be made. I feel as if you are conflating "this comparison doesn't give a complete picture" with "this comparison doesn't give us any information." Those two are not the same.
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jm89
Member
Lol you can lump together players totals if you want to come to your silly conclusion of success. Direct sales success can me measured as you get that revenue straight from the number of players who bought it. With sub service that is not the case just because you have a few million users who may have what? Downlaoded it? Played it for a few minutes? That is not a measure of success at all.
Netflix doesn't just look at the viewership of the pilot episode of a new show and then forget the performance of the rest of the season. Sub service and direct service metrics of success are different.
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jm89
Member
You can compare whatever you want, compare the sales of potatoes to how many people eat doritoes in mongolia. People will rightfully call out how silly it is.
Mibu no ookami
Member
Where things get really disingenuous is that his tweet is now being cited for news articles on the success of starfield...
https://en.softonic.com/articles/is...his-year-the-numbers-point-to-it?ex=CS-1537.0
This is exactly how bs narratives are born
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
Lol I'm not going to bother beating a dead horse when the others have already explained it so a five year old could understand, so I'll just end with this
Is that Chris's sack you're grasping in your PP?
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Yep, exactly. And Chris knew exactly what he was doing. Nobody is that stupid.
Mibu no ookami
Member
I get it. It's REALLY important that Starfield succeed and so we're seeing really bad takes to try to move it over the finish line.
We've seen this massive drought from Microsoft (which is ultimately more impactful and longer than Sony's drought) and that puts the Xbox Series in a really bad position.
The system is in a sales decline in year 3 and there is a lot riding on Starfield to prevent that from being the case closing out the year. It has A LOT to make up for in just one or two months, so without legs and an absolute shift in mindshare, it won't accomplish much. It'll see an increase in September YOY because Microsoft didn't have anything last holiday season, but it might not even be enough to push it up on the quarter. That's something we may never know.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Another one is incoming, by the way.
Also, look at the terrible reason why BG3 data isn't included.
"big companies who only release one game every few years" -- isn't that the perfect definition of Bethesda Game Studios? So why are they included but Larian isn't? lol
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Mibu no ookami
Member
Another one is incoming, by the way.
Also, look at the terrible reason why BG3 data isn't included.
"big companies who only release one game every few years" -- isn't that the perfect definition of Bethesda Game Studios? So why are they included but Larian isn't? lol
Yeah, I saw that, truly disappointing for those of us who are interested in historic data and proper tracking.
yazenov
Member
This really puts things into perspective how disappointing Starfield sales are compared to their previous games.
Unknown Soldier
Member
The same FFXVI that certain people were celebrating a sales failure literally 3 months ago?#1 "Behind Hogwarts, Zelda, Star Wars, Resi 4, FF16 and Dead Island 2"
yazenov
Member
Another one is incoming, by the way.
Also, look at the terrible reason why BG3 data isn't included.
"big companies who only release one game every few years" -- isn't that the perfect definition of Bethesda Game Studios? So why are they included but Larian isn't? lol
PS5 sales jumped 42% in the UK during August | UK Monthly Charts
It was a solid August for video games in the UK, driven by continued strong sales of PS5. According to GfK, over 135,00…
www.gamesindustry.biz
GHG
Member
Life comes at you fast.
And certain people wanted to argue that the physical sales were not piss poor....
Even assuming that 80% of sales were digital with Gamepass equally affecting physical and digital sales (and it's not like that), that means that total actual sales were 75k.
Gamepass plus Xbox exclusive destroyed actual sales compared to past big Bethesda games.
prinz_valium
Member
Found that weird, too.
yazenov
Member
The biggest elephant in the room for such underwhelming sales is that it's not of the PS5, the current gen market leader. MS admitted that in Europe, Sony has above 80% market share I think. Thats a lot of potential sales gone down the drain.
Why Microsoft's claim that it has 20% market share in Europe vs PlayStation's 80% was accurate
During this week's hearing in Europe over the Activision Blizzard acquisition, Microsoft made a case that -- when it co…
www.gamesindustry.biz
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Zekra Dezivad
Member
For context, Starfield Series X copies only, outsold Diablo 4 PS5+Series X physical copies. Which is great in itself.
But then you add the context that Xbox games tend to sell more digitally anyway.
The game has been pretty successful in the UK.
To be fair Diablo 4 is an always online game as a service and it was one of the biggest driver of digital adoption this year as only 7% of sales came from physical