BouncyFrag
Member
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Toons
Member
He never defended her, he was trying to negotiate peacefully but the notion was always that she needed stopped.
Sams race should be a factor here if we are going for any semblance of realism. They haven't gone overboard with it and Sam hasn't been crying about it so whats the problem?
Plenty of the most revered people in history did way worse than shes doing for a cause. Thats a pretty simplistic view. But the shoe has clearly portrayed her as needing go be stopped and going further and further into full blown terrorism complete with negative reactions from her associates so I'm not sure where your problem with this aspect of the story lies.
Sam or Bucky isn't obligated to like him but hes clearly got issues and is not fit to he Cap. Its been showj clearly way before episode 4 that he has insecurities and possibly PTSD
The Dora dgaf about the accords. They wouldve supported TChakas decision regardless. And they have just as much reason to be there as Falcon and Bucky do, especially when they are housing a terrorist and fugitive. Zemo got away because of Walkers idiocy and the commotion that resulted
Yikes
Dacon
Banned
When walker proposed taking Karli down before, Sam refused to work with him even though that was the right decision because he wanted to talk to her. It's stupid, the woman is a murderer who clearly has no problem killing bystanders for her goals, Sam even admits she is radicalized, and he stupidly forces everyone to go along with his idiotic plan to go talk with the terrorist when they had a surefire way to take her down with far less risk of her escaping. Does he really think she'll just turn herself in to the authorities? That she'll willingly submit herself to confinement when she's already gone so far as to kill for her ideals?
Sam has had no problem with using extreme violence to subdue violent terrorists endangering civilians, hell he dropped a fucking mortar on the terrorists in Civil war after gunning down several of them. Now he has a problem with it? What changed? Hell he just got done killing a bunch of them earlier in the season.
It's because for some stupid reason the show is written as though Sam sympathizes with her and her cause when there is nothing for a reasonable person to sympathize with. She's a monster. There's plenty of activists out there who do good work in oppressive systems without ever having to resort to killing innocent bystanders to achieve their goals. This is stupid.
He's giving this one terrorist special allowances that he has never given any other.
Why? Because he's black? Thats bullshit.
Making any argument for realism in a world of wizards, aliens and sentient machine armies is moronic to begin with. This isn't real life.
They most certainly did go overboard with that asinine scene with the police, and the repeated comments by Sam's annoying sister. The only justified scenes about race were the ones with Isiah(someone who lived through REAL oppression) and the joke with the little black kids about Black Falcon which I did like.
That's silly. Even if what you're saying is true, it's still fucking wrong. None of that is a justification for doing horrible things to people who don't even have anything to do with your fucking fight to begin with.
Try telling this stupid bullshit to someone who has lost someone they loved in a fucking terror attack. "They did it for a cause" jesus christ. It doesn't matter if someone else has done worse, she's still in the wrong.
Literally a day later in the scene at the graveyard her associate praises her and her mission, with no one challenging her on her actions.
It's not about liking people, and regardless of his fitness he is Captain America and a representative of the US and its intentions. Everyone has "issues". The mature professional thing would have been to work with him and do everything they could leveraging each of their own resources to solve the problem. Especially considering Sam and Bucky are already conducting their investigation illegally to begin with.
Instead they only served to fuel Walker's insecurities and drive him further into a corner, when he could have easily been one of their allies but they insisted on being children about it.
They should respect the wishes of their late king. They have a reason to be there yes, but they have no right and justification to bogard their way in and disregard international law and do whatever they want, even murdering foreign assets.
The only person in that room in the right was Walker, because he was following the law. Sam and Bucky have obstructed his mission, and now the terrorist is free because this clown wanted to have a chat. His conduct and demeanor were out of line when he was talking to Sam, but he wasn't in the wrong. He even asked the Dora to put down their weapons and talk about what was happening. THEY attacked him, he just reacted to their actions.
Zemo just walking out of the room is ridiculous, the Dora are trained warriors and suberversionists and they just let their target walk out of the room? They easily could have seen the guy through the corner of their eye. It's stupid.
Not even going reply to this dumb crap.
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Sam is doing what Cap did with Wanda in Age of Ultron ... Listening... Trying to understand. He's a soldier but like Steve, he is trying to see the bigger picture. Not go in guns blazing. It's like some of y'all forgot who Steve was and why he agreed to take the serum... He fought for the little guy... Not to kill Nazis.
Show me where John even looked to fight for the little guy... To listen to those who helped the flag smashers... Those are things Steve would have done... Which Sam DID do.
And did anyone notice... Lamar is like Sam in being the calm and rational one.
Like Sam said... Blood isn't the only solution.
Show me where John even looked to fight for the little guy... To listen to those who helped the flag smashers... Those are things Steve would have done... Which Sam DID do.
And did anyone notice... Lamar is like Sam in being the calm and rational one.
Like Sam said... Blood isn't the only solution.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
Sams way of doing things lead to the death of Lemar, if he stopped trying to convert her and properly arrested her Lemar would still be alive.
Dacon
Banned
....Cap was literally fighting to take them down, it wasn't until Wanda and Pietro had a change of heart that Cap really gave them a chance after all the destruction they caused. In all other instances, Steve didn't waste time trying to talk down people who were actively endangering and killing civilian.
If anything, Sam was more hard nosed than Steve in the past movies and more willing to go nuclear when the situation demanded it. It was what made him a good foil.
John is there to stop a radical terrorist organization that's been killing innocent people and causing tons of property damage. How is it his responsibility to listen to those who helped the flag smashers, and how would that be beneficial to stopping them?
How did Sam listening to them benefit anything? Lemar wouldn't be dead if Sam had agreed for them to just go in and capture her while she was off guard.
There is nothing rational about choosing to talk to a terrorist who is cornered and has proven again and again they will kill innocents for their own purposes.
Lemar definitely is a good mediator and friend to Walker.
Yet Sam has resorted to this solution time and again. Yet in this one situation he decided it's worth risking more lives to talk it out with terrorists.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Cannot wait to see Walker get his petulant ass beat.
Gonna be a popcorn moment.
Gonna be a popcorn moment.
sol_bad
Member
Dacon
Complaining about Sam wanting to talk to Karli instead of killing her is weird. I mean you are right in the fact that he was happy to kill other people with no problem. But the show also makes it a point that Sam agrees with what she is fighting for, he wants her to go about it in the right way and make her realize her errors.Besides, this shit happens everywhere, comics, movies, cartoons, anime, manga. The good guys are always killing bad guys and then want to sit down and talk to the main villain. EVERYWHERE.
*EDIT*
I hope Karli gets straight up murdered because I don't sympathize for her. And I honestly don't think the show is trying to make the audience sympathize for her.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
This is a bad take.
Especially considering that Sam almost succeeded if Walker hadn't raged out like the ignorant roid head that he is and barged in out of nowhere. He screwed up that whole situation and directly led to his partners death as a result.
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Dacon
Banned
My ass it is. There is literally no indication that Sam was going to get her to give up her crusade and go to prison.
Walker would never have been put into that situation if they had prioritized capturing her while she was off guard to begin with, and Lemar would still be alive. More people are at risk now, and more will probably die because they didn't just fucking put her down.
There is no logic behind this other than forcing more drama.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Yeah okay lol
Gonna be funny to watch Walker get shit on as a result of his stupidity though.
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Dacon
Banned
Apparently you think your interpretation is the definitive one. Sam got her to listen to him speak. Not a once did she concede that what she had done and was doing was wrong.
She even said those she's killed werent innocent, and that they were just roadblocks and she'd do it again. Didn't feel any shame about it until Sam said "Wow".
If you think someone like that who has already killed repeatedly has no problem doing it will just fucking give up and go to prison? Come on dude that's downright retarded.
She had already committed herself and made her mind up, regardless of what Sam said.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
It was clearly implied that Sam was making headway with her and that Walker fucked it up. There are hints while they are talking, once Walker interrupts, and afterwards as well. The whole scenario was meant to illustrate that Sam was the level headed person in the right here and that Walker was the loose cannon that didn't get his way. It was even shown to be this by them going out of their way to show Walker being all twitchy and pacing before he interrupted Sam and Karli. They even cemented this by ending the episode on Walker completely losing his shit and murdering the man in full view of the public. The whole episode and parts of those leading up to it was to illustrate that Walker is desperate and that he is a loose cannon. He took the serum when he shouldn't have out of desperation and a sense of inadequacy. As Erskine said. It makes good great and bad worse. Walker is officially a bad guy now thanks to his reckless stupidity.
Now Bucky and Sam are gonna beat his ass and take the shield away from him. And the series will end with Sam as the new Cap.
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bitbydeath
Gold Member
That’s where things get really messed up, Sam believes in her cause of halving the worlds population. Originally she was supposed to be planning for a virus to wipe out half the world but Disney re-wrote it due to Corona.
Besides, this shit happens everywhere, comics, movies, cartoons, anime, manga. The good guys are always killing bad guys and then want to sit down and talk to the main villain. EVERYWHERE.
*EDIT*
I hope Karli gets straight up murdered because I don't sympathize for her. And I honestly don't think the show is trying to make the audience sympathize for her.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
I think he agrees with her cause in the sense of trying to get everyone to work with everyone else.
I don't for a second believe that falcon supports the idea of killing half the world or using terrorism to bend it to his will.
Dacon
Banned
No it wasn't. They were just chatting, not a once did Karli admit she was in the wrong. All Walker did was accelerate the situation.
No there aren't. You can't even illustrate these so called hints. Karli remains adamant that she is in the right, and even intimates to Sam that he should be on her side helping her, and that's when Walker bursts in on the scene.
Walker was panicking because he thought Karli was going to kill Sam and escape, making him even more of a failure. Something he explicitly said he was worried about to begin with, and that's how he convinced Bucky to let him go after them, because it was a reasonable concern to have.
He's not just freaking out because he's crazy, he's collapsing under the pressure of the role.
Dude's best friend was just murdered by a terrorist, it's not an unreasonable or unbelievable response to what just happened. The fact that he did it in front of a bunch of clowns with cellphones is what makes him a moron.
They showed a guy wanted to do the right thing, and failed to follow his ideal by collapsing under the pressure and expectations of the people. He followed the law, and tried to do everything by the book and was consistently met with resistance from his peers that he wanted to work with to solve the problem to begin with.
"Bad guy" for killing a terrorist who just killed a US soldier? He's a failure yes, but I wouldn't call him a "bad guy". He's unfit for the role and clearly needs some psychiatric help, but he's not the fucking villain in this story.
Sam's reckless stupidity created this situation and lead to this mess to begin with. His refusal to work with Lemar and Walker,, and then refusing to just fucking capture or kill the bitch on the spot when they had her at a disadvantage.
There is literally no fucking reason he couldn't have talked to this bitch after they subdued her.
Obviously.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Holy shit I have seen some people jokingly defending Walker on Twitter and stuff, but I figured that was a meme. You are being serious lol
Sam and Bucky are the protagonists in this series you do remember that right? Karli and Walker are the antagonists. The entire plot line from the end of the first episode to now has been to show that Walker cannot be trusted, does not have the temperament for his position, and is borderline crazy when it comes to his complete and utter inferiority complex.
Time and time again Walker was faced with the ability to do the right thing and he failed every single possible step of the way. He refused to take a backseat to people more experienced than him in Sam and Bucky. He repeatedly tried to posture himself in a way that made him look like a fool. He once again refused to follow the advice of those who are more experienced than him and his own partner. Got his hands on the serum and instead of handing it over to his superiors decided to take it like the reckless idiot that he is. And then proceeded to hulk out in front of an entire square of civilians and kill someone in broad daylight.
I'm not sure how else Disney could have telegraphed to you that Walker is not a good person.
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Dacon
Banned
Cool argument bro you really showed me a vigorous and respectable discussion, bravo.
I'm totally glad you haven't been glossing over all of the points I've made about the plot and really engaged me there.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
He probably only agrees with her because of his own selfish reasons, that arose with the bank loan situation.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
People are only siding with Falcon because he’s a main character, if John was the main then everyone would side with him.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
That is stupid lol
Sam doesn't want loads of people dead just because some jackhole didn't give him a loan. The dude is the protagonist of a disney series. Don't be ridiculous.
Dacon
Banned
No they wouldn't. They would still hate him.
People were calling Bucky a fucking colonizer on social media for opposing the Dora.
John wouldn't have a chance.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
That is a straight lie. If Walker did all of the same shit he has already done and Sam had done all of the same things he did then people would side with Sam. Walker has been a selfish, ignorant, and reckless fool since the second episode.
The lengths some of you are going to defend Walker and his stupidity is just hilarious.
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bitbydeath
Gold Member
It doesn’t matter if Sam wants half the world dead or not, the issue is he is supporting someone who does.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
I honestly can't tell if you are being serious or not.
You don't actually believe that Sam supports her right? The protagonist of a disney show, a member of the avengers, and a guy who has repeatedly been shown to just be a stand up person. You REALLY believe that he stands with her?
Come on now.
Dacon
Banned
About the only one of these criticisms that applies is his recklessness.
How is it selfish to want to stop the leading terrorist threat currently in the world? Dude was even willing to set aside his own desire to solve the problem on his own to put an end to the problem. He WANTED to follow Bucky and Sam's lead after the first encounter they had.
He even repeatedly listened to and sought the council of his more level headed partner repeatedly.
The lengths some of you are going to defend Sam and his stupidity is just hilarious.
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bitbydeath
Gold Member
It was just quoted before that he does.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
I don’t think so, it all started with Bucky not wanting to work with him and escalated from there. If people knew John and sympathised for his cause then they would have easily sided with him.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
- He refused to work under Sam and Bucky because he saw himself above them despite them being FAR more experienced than him. He even called them Caps wingmen. Acknowledging their history and experience, but still unwilling to hand them the lead.
- "Stay out of my way
" When he could get Bucky and Sam to do things his way and refused to go along with them yet again. - DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?!?!?!?!? (something Cap would NEVER say)
- He took the serum instead of turning it in.
- He ignored his partner who told him to give Same his chance to talk to Karli.
- He got his little fee fees hurt when he got his ass beat by the Dora Malje
The man has been acting like a spoiled manchild since the moment he showed up. How you seem to be missing that is beyond me. But enjoy watching Sam be the hero and watching Wlaker get his ass beat and embarrassed for the next two episodes I guess lol
Dacon
Banned
John is a decorated US soldier who already had a storied career. They're hunting terrorists and criminals, not aliens and warlocks. He has about the same amount of experience as the rest of them. He asked them to work together to solve the problem, where's the issue?
- "Stay out of my way
They were literally repeatedly insulting and dismissive to him, the only person who is empowered with the authority to actually pursue this case legally. How was he supposed to react?
Don't get me wrong, he is 100 percent unqualified for the pressure of the job, but I think people are being unnecessarily harsh on the dude.
Except he agreed with him and gave Sam his chance, until he panicked, and made his argument to Bucky that they should go to Sam and Karli. Which Bucky and Lemar allowed him to do.
He was question his ability to do the job dude, he got his ass beat by people who didn't even have super powers. He was rightly shook, he clearly did not acknowledge the enormity of the job he undertook.
Your definition of spoiled and manchild are both far too loose.
How you seem to just ignore the recklessness, childishness and stupidity of Sam's choices and actions is beyond me.
The only person that's really done anything smart is Zemo.
Nah, I don't like John myself. I just think he has been unfairly treated by many in this fandom, and the fact that people are talking about him like he's worse than fucking Karli is absolutely ridiculous.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
Outside perspective.
John: I want to work with you (Sam and Bucky)
Sam and Bucky: No, too much paperwork and law abiding.
John: I can offer protections so you can do what you want.
Sam and Bucky: No, your government will slow us down.
Who’s right and wrong here?
John who has the law behind his actions or Sam and Bucky who are basically vigilantes?
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Sam and Bucky are the heroes of the series so they are the good guys.
Once again. Walkers behavior has been explicitly meant to show that he is not a good person for the job he has been given. That is the ENTIRE point of his scenes leading up to this point.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
Exactly what I was saying before about them being the main characters. If John were then people would sing a different tune even under the exact same circumstances.
Dacon
Banned
Obviously the smart thing to do here would have been for everyone to put their own bullshit aside and work together for the greater good.
Bad writers can't force drama in that situation.
sol_bad
Member
I don't think he agrees with the wiping out the population part. Just with the less borders and more people helping each other part.
Dacon
This is Caps 2nd meeting with the twins. He suggests that they walk away. He doesn't want to put them down. He tells Piotr to stay down as he doesn't want to fight them.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
They wouldn't. But if it makes you feel better to believe that then you can I guess.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
You just agreed that John was in the right. Sam and Bucky aren’t following the law and aren’t even willing to compromise.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
No Walker was trying to follow what the government wanted to do. That's not the same thing as doing what is right.
And even then he was full of shit because he didn't even do that when it came down to it.
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bitbydeath
Gold Member
You’re still trying to overlook that John did nothing wrong in that first encounter while siding with the vigilantes.
If Sam wasn’t the main character he would get found out for his involvement in Lemar’s death but I bet that just gets brushed aside like everything else.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
I can't tell if you are being intentionally difficult about all of this or if you really believe that somehow Sam Wilson and Bucky are the bad guys here.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
They’re not, but neither is John, my point is John has done more right than the both of them. Even Lamar pointed out that John was making all the right moves.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
And you would be wrong, but it's a silly thing to argue about at this point.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Am I the only one that saw that Karli was shooketh when she accidentally killed Lemar?
She wasn't trying to.
She wasn't trying to.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Yeah that was intentional. It's the show's way of conveying the fact that she lost control of her strength for a second and ended up killing someone in the process. She didn't mean to kill Lemar he just got in her way, but she got so heated in the moment of trying to go after Walker that she lost it.
No doubt that's going to lead to something in the next couple of episodes.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Right. Before his accidental death, the only ones she killed intentionally were those guards at the depot sitting on all those supplies for the displaced.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
And there was the innocents killed in the bombing, but yes I get what you're saying.
I think it's safe to say that Karli is going to feel bad at some point, but ultimately not stand aside and it's going to make Sam or Bucky have to kill her. That or Walker is going to do it and that is what ultimately forces Sam's hand and makes him take up the shield. Just so he can keep it out of the hands of someone like Walker.
Because even if Walker was to face some kind of consequences for his murder in the middle of that town square the government would just hand off the shield to another ignorant spokesman. I think Sam is slowly but surely starting to understand that he is the only person that can carry the shield and not disgrace it in the process. Well him and maybe Bucky, but I think we all know that Bucky isn't going to end up with the shield.
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sol_bad
Member
WOW
Just read the whole conversation about how Walker is right because he works with the government and Sam and Bucky are wrong because they don't work for the government. Am I really reading this?
The Avengers worked outside the government. Every MCU movie is the super hero working outside the government. Majority of super hero stories are working outside the government.
This is a really weird topic to disect.
Just read the whole conversation about how Walker is right because he works with the government and Sam and Bucky are wrong because they don't work for the government. Am I really reading this?
The Avengers worked outside the government. Every MCU movie is the super hero working outside the government. Majority of super hero stories are working outside the government.
This is a really weird topic to disect.
Dacon
Banned
Which is actually stupid because she's been killing people all along, bystanders, but she has a problem with killing this one dude you're fighting head on? Accident or not?
Stupid.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
It basically comes down to people continually making excuses for Sam and Buckys behaviour but the moment John so much as farts everyone jumps onto him.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
It probably has something to do with Sam and Bucky doing the right thing even though it's outside of the law or the government and John Walker just kind of being an overall douchebag every single step of the way. The dude is not even fit to carry Captain America's jockstrap let alone his shield and every single second on the screen that he's carrying that shield the audience is going to hate him even more.
There is only two people in all of the MCU that can carry that shield and not disgrace it in the process. And that is Sam Wilson and Bucky Barnes.
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