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The Literary Works of J.R.R. Tolkien Megathread |OT| Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo

terrisus

Member
Hey all. I just wanted to hop back in here since, while it was almost 2 months ago that I had asked for some suggestions on audiobook versions of some of Tolkien's work, I only finally got around to starting to actually listening to them (going through The Hobbit at the moment).

Given my issues with my vision since my stroke last year, it had been depressing not being able to do anywhere near as much reading as I used to (and with it being so much more tiring/frustrating/headache-inducing/difficult in general), it's been very nice to get into these (and I had been meaning to give Tolkien's work another read-through, since it had been probably 15 years since I had last done so).

So, I just wanted to say thank you to TolkienGAF, and in particular to Loxley and Edmond Dantès. I really appreciate your help, and am very thankful =)
 

Finrod

Banned
I do like that, but if I'm honest I got buried pretty quickly. :eek:(

...

Ok, I'm going to take a side step and refer to something else, and like to see this type of analysis applied to;

When Sheridan jumps off the ledge at Z'ha'Dum, could he have reached the area where Lorien would have captured and shielded him in time, before the wave front hit him?

- and depending on the distance travelled, I understand that the shock front overtakes the fireball - so would he fare better if the capture was a specific distance away compared to the speed of the fall etc?

Also, even if he could have been protected in time, wouldn't he have been blinded by the flash?

I appreciate that this is off-topic, but there is a lot of LOTR in B5. ;o)

I have no idea what you are talking about.
Am i missing something?
 

4444244

Member
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Am i missing something?

Well I should have made it clearer, I was referring to the space opera series Babylon 5 (which itself has many references to LOTR).

The link that was posted about physics in LOTR, was interesting (although difficult to keep up with), and it made me think about a particula episode of Babylon 5 (season 3 finale).

This was where one of the main characters jumps off a ledge into a very deep pit, shortly before his remotely piloted spaceship equiped with 2 massive nukes comes crashing though the citadel dome roof and explodes.

What happens next is that he survives due to being ensnared by an ancient being, who keeps him alive. But I always wondered how it would have been possible for him to fall deep enough to be captured by the being before being affected by the blast from the nukes.

He dies temporarily, although if his 'death' was due to the nuke, he would be nothing but ashes.

Anyway, hope that explain my query in context.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Hey all. I just wanted to hop back in here since, while it was almost 2 months ago that I had asked for some suggestions on audiobook versions of some of Tolkien's work, I only finally got around to starting to actually listening to them (going through The Hobbit at the moment).

Given my issues with my vision since my stroke last year, it had been depressing not being able to do anywhere near as much reading as I used to (and with it being so much more tiring/frustrating/headache-inducing/difficult in general), it's been very nice to get into these (and I had been meaning to give Tolkien's work another read-through, since it had been probably 15 years since I had last done so).

So, I just wanted to say thank you to TolkienGAF, and in particular to Loxley and Edmond Dantès. I really appreciate your help, and am very thankful =)
You're welcome.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
This might be useful to Tolkien GAF in the future. The 'consolidated Edmond Dantès on Tolkien'. A collection of my quotes and analyses whilst a member of this forum and community. (Probably full of spelling and grammatical errors as I haven't had the time to proof read.)

On Sauron and the One and other such things

1. “He hadn't the power to do it again. Much of his inherent power was put into the One Ring, thus reducing his once great might.

With the One it was a different matter, his power was elevated far beyond what he was capable of as a Maia, so much so that at his peak with the One at his disposal and his original raiment he was actually more powerful than his master (Melkor, the mightiest of the Ainu (angelic spirits)), during his lowest ebb at the end of the First Age.”

2. “To amplify his own power and to gain control of the Men, Dwarves and Elves who were also in possession of Rings of Power.”

3. “Forceful removal of the One would have caused more damage to Sauron than anything. It would be like his essence being ripped away from him and in this weakened state he was no longer able to maintain his physical raiment. He was after all an angelic being taking incarnate form.”

4. “That's why Tolkien created him, to parallel the fall of Melkor as well as Sauron.

Galadriel sensed Feanor's evil hence rejecting him when he asked for strands of her hair, many years later she saw through Sauron's Annatar guise and she was certainly one of those who mistrusted Melkor after his unchaining in Valinor.

Those quick to anger and to show pride are those who fall in Tolkien's legendarium, whether it be Melkor, Feanor, Sauron, Saruman, Boromir etc.”

5. “An ability to use more of his (Gandalf's) inherent might. The old man raiments were forced upon the five wizards by the Lords of the Valar to restrict their power in Middle-earth. They were sent to aid and guide the Children of Iluvatar, not to go after Sauron with brute force.”

6. “The Army of the Dead of were never intended for that purpose, in the novel their role is terrify the armies of Sauron. They were not the Deus ex Machina they were portrayed as in the film.”

7. “The Hobbit yes, but the wider Legendarium and The Silmarillion in particular was his attempt to consolidate and modernize themes from old myths and lore and bring them to the masses, hence his use of the likes of The Volsunga Saga, Prose Edda, Elder Edda, The Kalevala, The Mabinogion, The Gods of Pegana and so forth in developing his Legendarium.”

8. “The latest theory as discussed at the recent Tolkien Society Event, 'Return of the Ring', is that Tom was a byproduct of the initial weaving of Arda when Melkor's discord directly opposed Eru's will. Melkor's theme took precedence the second time out of the three occasions hence Ungoliant was created (the very antithesis to light; the darkness that consumes light). Then Eru rebounded and his wrath was known to all the Ainu and his chords triumphed over Melkor's discord hence Tom was created (the antithesis of the dark; the light, incorruptible).

Ungoliant would later be influenced by Melkor and consume the very essence of Telperion and Laurelin, The Two Trees of Valinor and Tom would carry on inhabiting Middle-earth in his unique manner unperturbed by anything around him and aiding those in need.”

9. “Valinor or in their case Tol Eressëa (an island just off the shores of Valinor) was the equivant of the Kingdom of Heaven, an unspoilt land, inhabited by the angelic beings and the Elves.”

10. Tolkien had the following to say of Tom in his letters:

“As a story, I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unexplained (especially if an explanation actually exists)
... And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).”

“The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless.”

“Tom represented Botany and Zoology (as sciences) and Poetry as opposed to Cattle-breeding and Agriculture and practicality.”

11. Tolkien put it best (from Morgoth's Ring, The History of Middle-earth series):

“Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.”

12. Tolkien himself stated in Letter 210 (which was a critique of a film script by Morton Grady Zimmerman) the following:

Aragorn and the Hobbits left Bree at night in Z's script. This was the opposite of what "book-Aragorn" would do, and Z showed he completely misunderstood the greatest weapon of the Riders: fear. They hold no power over the fearless.

Again, like the Army of the Dead their power was in invoking fear, not outright fighting ability.

13. Regarding the eagles, Tolkien himself stated in Letter #210 that:

'The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility and usefulness.'

They may have been intelligent and descendants of the great eagles of Manwe, but they were still volatile and mostly insular beings and wouldn't have agreed to be used in such a manner.

They owed Gandalf a favour during the period in which The Hobbit is set, so that's why they were so keen to rescue him and the dwarves from the wolves and goblins.

Providing aid during the Battle of the Five Armies also served a purpose for them.

Earlier examples of aid go back to the First Age. Thorondor recovering Fingolfin's broken body from Melkor before he defiled it further as well the rescue of Beren and Luthien from the gates of Angband.

14. “Not every sentiment being cared about the war that Sauron was continuing in place of his master with the Children of Iluvatar.

The Stone Giants from The Hobbit are another example, they were apathetic to the whole thing. Tom Bombadil as well, even Smaug who was a descendant of the great dragons that Melkor engineered was minding his own business and influencing the world in his own unique manner. The point being that it was an effort by Tolkien to illustrate that not everything came to a standstill during wartime and that not all beings took sides.”

15. (On invisibility) “That was pretty much a 'side-effect' for those not powerful enough to wield the Ring. It wouldn't give Sauron that ability else he would have used such a benefit during his conflicts. But there is never any mention of that by Tolkien in any text, letter or manuscript, so it's safe to assume that it couldn't turn him invisible.

He was capable of shape shifting however, before his original raiment was destroyed in The Sinking of Numenor. He could take the form of a bat, wolf and serpent amongst other things.”

16. “As fantastic as The Hobbit is, the scale of the tale pales in comparison to the tales that take place in The Simarillion. The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Gondolin in particular, as well as the more personal tales of Beren and Luthien and the tale of Hurin and the woe of his children.”

17. (On knowing the wizards origins) “Glorfindel was well aware of what they were especially considering his great friendship with Gandalf while in Valinor. Cirdan may also have been aware. Treebeard, Tom Bombadil and Goldberry too.”

18. In Tolkien's view Frodo failed his quest.

Frodo indeed ‘failed’ as a hero, as conceived by simple minds: he did not endure to the end; he gave in, ratted. I do not say ‘simple minds’ with contempt: they often see with clarity the simple truth and the absolute ideal to which effort must be directed, even if it is unattainable. Their weakness, however, is twofold. They do not perceive the complexity of any given situation in Time, in which an absolute ideal is enmeshed. They tend to forget that strange element in the World that we call Pity or Mercy, which is also an absolute requirement in moral judgement (since it is Present in the Divine nature). In its highest exercise it belongs to God. For finite judges of imperfect knowledge it must lead to the use of two different scales of ‘morality’. To ourselves we must present the absolute ideal without compromise, for we do not know our own limits of natural strength (+grace), and if we do not aim at the highest we shall certainly fall short of the utmost that we could achieve. To others, in any case of which we know enough to make a judgement, we must apply a scale tempered by ‘mercy’: that is, since we can with good will do this without the bias inevitable in judgements of ourselves, we must estimate the limits of another's strength and weigh this against the force of particular circumstances.

I do not think that Frodo’s was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for anyone to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted. Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence) and had produced a situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved. His humility (with which he began) and his sufferings were justly rewarded by the highest honour; and his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed. - Letter #246.

It was only the intervention of Gollum that caused the Ring to be destroyed. If they had bypassed Gollum altogether would any of them when in a position to destroy it, actually do it? Even the most powerful of the Maiar would have succumbed while in such close proximity to the Crack of Doom. Not many were above the will of the One; Eru and the Valar certainly, Tom seemingly, but that was in his territory.

19. (On the Blue Wizards’ supposed failure) Off in the East of Middle-earth dealing with Sauron's forces via suterfuge. In Tolkien's later musings Alatar and Pallando are not seen as failures, but rather as playing a decisive role in subduing Sauron's easterly forces.

As stated in Peoples of Middle-earth.

The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war of Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had a very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the east ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

20. (Tolkien’s final thoughts on the origins of Orcs.) “The origins of the Orcs are shrouded in mystery but the closest to a definitive answer is this; degenerate men taken in by Melkor long before Men started mingling with Elves. Melkor appeared to them in fair form as a false saviour and corrupted certain numbers of them He made an ill of the Gift of Iluvatar (death, freedom from Arda) that would later have such repercussions for the Men of Numenor. The dark early history that the race of Men are so reluctant to talk about. Then the degenerates were crossbred with Elves who had not made the journey to Valinor. Thus, the Orcs were engineered by Melkor, not created. Evil cannot create in the Legendarium, one of the reasons behind Melkor's fall, his bitterness of being impotent in that regard. Some of the more powerful Orc captains were Maiar incarnate, who better to lead the Orcs on the battlefield than Maiar who are aligned to you.

Again like Melian, Luthien's mother, these Maiar Orcs could breed, hence creating powerful offspring.

Also, later on the Orcs were once again crossbred with a breed of very hardy men, hence the Uruk-hai. Some Orcs actually took on the characteristics of Men rather than Orcs, hence these half-breeds looking almost human. These were seen at Bree by Frodo and co.”

21. (More on Tom) “There is a plausible theory about Nature spirits being a separate branch of spirits that manifested as incarnate beings when life appeared on Middle-earth, hence Glorfindel saying he was the first and would be last. Goldberry would also be one of these Nature spirits. When life vanished Tom and other Nature spirits would have nothing to interact with, hence they'd be the last inhabitants of Arda. The Stone Giants also fit into this theory.”

22. (On Saruman’s ring) “One thing everyone seems to overlook is the fact that Saruman had a ring of his own. It certainly wasn't as powerful as the Nine, Seven, Three or One, but that was only because of the gaps in Saruman's knowledge of ring lore. He may have been trying to bluff Gandalf, but there is no doubt that given time, Saruman could have forged a mighty ring of his own. He was after all a Maia of Aulë the great smith, just like Sauron before him.”

23. (On Elven ears) Tolkien points out the following:

The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [human]. - History of Middle-earth, Volume 5, Etymologies.

24. (On Sauron’s for fingers) “There's no established reason as to why Sauron had four fingers in Tolkien's works.

It may be that he wasn't able to regenerate that finger due to the continuing loss of his inherent might. The four fingered incarnation was his third body after all.

More likely, he purposefully forged himself a new body with the missing finger as a reminder.

Or Gollum was using the four fingers description as a metaphor; Sauron wasn't yet at his most powerful.”

25. (On Glorfindel and the Fellowship) “Glorfindel was sent back by the Valar from Valinor. Sauron would have deduced that Glorfindel using the One for himself was an impossibility, considering Glorfindel's knowledge of what the One was capable of and Glorfindel's orders from the Valar.

Glorfindel wouldn't be able to hide his presence, he was already known to Witch-King after their previous confrontation, and thus all the Nazgul and Sauron's minions would have known as well.”

26. (On Farimir’s resistence to the One Ring) I think Professor Ralph Wood's (author of The Gospel According to Tolkien: Visions of the Kingdom in Middle-earth) explanation is very insightful.

"Like Faramir and Sam - but unlike Boromir and Saruman - Galadriel is able to refuse the Ring's magnetic lure. Bilbo had also used the Ring many times without permanent damage. Whence the difference? Why can some resist the fatal temptation while others yield to it? Boromir and Saruman both see themselves as leaders and heroes ; their loves are disordered by their own lust and ambition. The others, by contrast, possess something akin to what Jesus calls purity of heart. They have preserved their integrity of soul and conscience. They regard themselves as servants rather than lords. All four of them have properly ordered their loves to the Good. Bilbo lives to write his books and poems, and to translate works from the elvish for the benefit of hobbits. Sam serves his master Frodo above all others. Faramir seeks to preserve Gondor in readiness for the king's return. Galadriel wants only to protect Lórien from the assaults of the evil one. Because their loves and thus their lives are rightly ordered, the Ring does them little harm"
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Literary discussion of Tolkien and the Legendarium

1. “That's the thing about The Hobbit, Smaug is billed as the great adversary that needs to be conquered, but he's only a mere hurdle on the way in the narrative. The true plot of The Hobbit is Bilbo's adventure and growth as a character with his Tookish side coming to the fore before it lays dormant once again, ready in waiting for its final occurrences in The Lord of the Rings. The Dwarves and Erebor, secondary, everything else, tertiary.”

2. (On diminishment of the Elves) “The Elves were diminishing in strength and spirit especially after the fall of Sauron and his Ring. Without the Rings of Power (Narya, Nenya and Vilya) the Elves could no longer stem the tide of progress. They were essentially luddites and represented Tolkien's views on industrialization, but their leaving of Middle-earth essentially mirrored his coming to terms with the inevitability of industrial progress.

Also, the Race of Men were preordained by Eru to become the dominant species on Arda.

An Elf remaining in Middle-earth would have eventually diminished so much that their physical body would be gone leaving only the spirit (hröa) which would be invisible to the Race of Men.”

3. (On the Silmarillion) “I've regarded it as Tolkien's greatest work for a long time now. I'm glad to see that you've taken to it. The best is yet to come with the two most fleshed out tales; Of Beren and Luthien and Of Túrin Turambar.

What you must remember though is that The Silmarillion as Tolkien intended it, as a companion piece to The Lord of the Rings is lost. Christopher when consolidating and editing the various manuscripts realised that vast chunks were missing and he did his best to fill in the gaps.

Another thing to note is this; The Silmarillion is an evolution of the original abandoned Legendarium, which can now be found in The Book of Lost Tales. Funnily enough, the earlier chapters dealing with the Ainur are much more detailed and in my opinion superior to what is found in The Silmarillion. The Valar in particular are far more humanized than the angelic beings in the latter mythos. Also included are two additional Valar (Makar and Meássë) in the original pantheon, who are far less noble, volatile 'war gods' effectively.

Well worth reading after The Silmarillion.”

4. (On Sauron’s supposed diminishment without the One) “1. Sauron lost no power through the loss of the One, his power in Middle-earth remained constant while the One was in existence. With the One his power would be amplified. That was one of the motivating factors for creating it. With the One he would have been able to exert more control over his host, maybe even have been able to influence (not control) other fell beings that Melkor had a hand in corrupting or originally engineering. The Cold Drakes, the other Balrog (long forgotten after The War of Wrath), even Smaug before his death. These would have bolstered his host a great deal and he'd be replicating what his Master (he was always following in Melkor's footsteps) did by not putting all his faith in Orcs/Goblins. In terms of battle, Sauron knew might of arms was a weakness of his and anything that aided him in rectifying this was a great asset.

2. The Elven Lords/Lady realised Sauron's intentions as soon as he put on the One. The minds of Elves (the greatest among them in particular) are far more 'in tune' if you will with the Ainur, far more than the later beings that inhabited Middle-earth, especially Men who were far removed from the Ainur. The Rings of Power were just a conduit that enabled him to exert his will over the minds of those wearing them, it wasn't the Rings he controlled, rather the fëa/hröa of the beings in possession of the Rings.”

5. “There's no such thing as good or evil in Tolkien's Legendarium, just the comparison of one state with another, interwoven with the underlying issues of Tolkien's era.”

6. (On good and evil) “The Children of Morgoth were under the influence of He who engineered them. No real will of their own. Sauron was following in his Master's footsteps with absolute faith in Melkor's conflict with Eru. Melkor represented free will.

It's not as black and white as good and evil.

It also reflected Tolkien's inner conflict regarding his religion and Edith's.

Tolkien himself gives an example with Gandalf in possession of the One. The very meaning of 'good' would be blurred, what is perceived as morally right would lose all meaning.”

7. (More on Sauron’s motives) “With Sauron the secondary factors were order and discipline, two things he was obsessed with, which Melkor took advantage of. His desire to finish what Melkor had started his main desire. Even going so far as to create cults in His name, vague forms of religion in a work largely devoid of references to religion.

What you call 'pillaging, razing of countryside' is progress in the name of the iron fist of industrialization and agriculture, development of technology; progress in a world stifled by the Luddite nature of the Elves and some from the Edain.

It's not as basic as simple 'corruption' brought about by the One as the Gyges conundrum (one of the main influences of the One as developed for The Lord of the Rings) above demonstrates. The Rings of Power were conduits that allowed Sauron to influence the hröar of the Nine Men, who were already susceptible to such influence after some of the early Edain were taken in by Melkor's message (explored in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth).”

In terms of Gandalf; Tolkien said it best:

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).

What would be construed as good would be obscured beyond reason.

One must also remember the Norse sagas that greatly influenced the Legendarium as a whole. The dominant theme of many of these sagas is moral ambiguity, the Laxdæla saga in particular.”

8. (On Melkor’s fall) “He had essentially become nihilistic. His original intentions were to rule Arda as Manwe did (or so he thought Manwe did), feeling himself on par with Eru himself even though he lacked the flame imperishable, but by the end all he wanted was complete destruction of Arda, if he had won he would have gone out of his way to wipe everything out, even his own hosts would be unsafe from him.”

9. (On female characters in Tolkien’s Legendarium) “Many of Tolkien's great female characters were saved for his most beloved work The Silmarillion (Luthien, Melian, Morwen, Nienor etc) and work that went unpublished; The Mariner's Wife (Erendis) and Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth (Andreth).

In an ideal world, the works above would have been completed and published during Tolkien's lifetime, as a result people would be far more aware of the majestic female characters that Tolkien was responsible for creating.

The main factor in influencing Tolkien's female characters was his mother who died after refusing medical intervention due to her beliefs. He martyrized her in a sense and this greatly affected his approach in developing female characters. You'll notice that many females in the Legendarium are of a good nature. The few exceptions include the spiders, the vampire, a Numenorean and a certain Queen with a fondness for cats. But the vast majority reflect what he saw in his mother, his wife and the countless women he encountered during the War.

In terms of The Hobbit, Tolkien wasn't wholly swept up by the zeitgiest of the time, he and his children (which included his little girl Priscilla) when devoloping The Hobbit just couldn't find an appropriate place to put one of his females in.

I'd recommend The Mariner's Wife and The Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth mentioned above.”

10. (On the creation of Dragons) “Melkor engineered/corrupted them using creatures that already existed. He couldn't create anything himself. The father of the dragons was Glaurung, a wingless Fire Drake. The greatest dragon was Anacalagon who Melkor unleashed during the final battle of the First Age. There wasn't a hierarchy per se, but the Fire Drakes (fire breathing dragons) were more powerful than the Cold Drakes (non-fire breathers).

Of the named dragons (Glaurung, Anacalagon, Scatha, Smaug), Smaug would be on par with Glaurung, mainly because of his ability to fly. But Glaurung may have been a Maiar corrupted by Melkor, plus he was even more cunning than Smaug and had the ability to wipe people's minds.

Scatha was a Cold Drake, a menace to the Dwarves.”

11. (Another Tom theory) “The theory claims that the Music of the Ainur is still prevalent in Arda and that Tom is an embodiement of it thus explaining his constant singing. It also details why Tom be regarded as the last if Sauron were victorious as the Music was the foundation of Arda and thus would be the only thing left if all came to ruin.

It also explains why he was there before Melkor, who descended into Arda with the Valar.”

12. (On Dragon sickness) “Essentially, it is the very act of succumbing to the lust of 'gold upon which a dragon has long brooded'.

That people would be bewitched and enchanted by dragon-hoards and thus take actions that would estrange them from their peers, in a similar manner to the effects of the One Ring. In effect a curse would be laid upon them for their actions.

The theme of cursed treasure had been a powerful narrative thread in earlier works by Tolkien, especially in the tale of 'The Nauglafring' and this theme owes much to the story of Fafnir's and Sigurd's treasure (also known as Andvari's Hoard and Das Rheingold) from the Volsunga Saga. The Volsung's treasure on the one hand (in Germanic and Norse myth) and the gold of the Rodothlim (Book of Lost Tales), the Silmarils and indeed the One Ring on the other (within Tolkien's Legendarium) indiscriminately bring doom to all their owners one by one, although a few like Bilbo, Beren and Earendil escape the curse's full effects.

This theme appealed greatly to Tolkien, so much so that it inspired one of his finest poems; The Hoard, also known as Iumonna Gold Galdre Bewunden, translated; ancient gold, entangled with enchantment. The poem tells of a wonderful treasure of gold and silver and jewels owned successively by Elves, a lone Dwarf, a Dragon and a hero who becomes king, all of whom perish miserably, leaving the hoard in the end lost forever, buried in a grassy mound. The poem also makes it clear that the original owners are chained to the hoard, possessed by their own possession.

There is another type of curse if you will, distinct from a curse laid upon a hoard of treasure, that of the dragon's gaze. A dragon's ability to directly manipulate the minds of those who look into his eyes and to individually curse any whose name he knows. In other tales, both Turin Turambar and his sister make the mistake of making eye contact with a dragon (Glaurung) and are beguiled and his knowledge of who they are enable him to craft specific curses that set both on the road to incest and suicide.

In terms of the Volsunga saga, there is no mention of whether Sigurd looks into Fafnir's eyes while the dragon is still alive, but he does initially give a false name to avoid Fafnir's dying curse. As for The Hobbit's hero; Bilbo wisely avoids meeting Smaug's gaze and giving his real name.

Despite all of this, relatively few succumb to dragon sickness in The Hobbit as published. Bilbo (very briefly), Thorin himself (who heroically throws off its influence during the Battle of the Five Armies and dies free from it), most of Thorin's fellow Dwarves to a lesser degree and the Master of Lake Town at some later date.

Ultimately, Thror's recovered treasure brings prosperity and peace to the region in the hands of those who can resist the dragon sickness; Dain (who renews the Kingdom under the mountain) and Bard (who reestablishes and rebuilds Dale and eventually extends his realm all the way down to include the rebuilt Lake Town). Those who cannot resist meet with personal disaster (the Master of Lake Town's death from starvation does not harm Esgaroth's recovery though) in accordance with the established theme.

This forms a stark contrast with Tolkien's models, the Volsung hoard is lost, as is the gold of the Rodothlim and also the treasure guarded by Beowulf's dragon. Tolkien in The Hobbit creates a near-catastrophe followed by a happy ending appropriate to a fairy story, in keeping with his ideas of eucatastrophe.

Bilbo doesn't end up with a river of gold (although he does get a fair portion), but the gold is used instead of hoarded and makes his world a better place.”

13. (On the Arthurian legend and creating a myth for England) From Letter #131 of The Letters of J.R.R Tolkien.

But an equally basic passion of mine ab initio was for myth (not allegory!) and for fairy-story, and above all for heroic legend on the brink of fairy-tale and history, of which there is far too little in the world (accessible to me) for my appetite.

I was an undergraduate before thought and experience revealed to me that these were not divergent interests – opposite poles of science and romance – but integrally related. I am not 'learned' in the matters of myth and fairy-story, however, for in such things (as far as known to me) I have always been seeking material, things of a certain tone and air, and not simple knowledge. Also – and here I hope I shall not sound absurd – I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own (bound up with its tongue and soil), not of the quality that I sought, and found (as an ingredient) in legends of other lands.

There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian, and Finnish (which greatly affected me); but nothing English, save impoverished chap-book stuff. Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing its 'faerie' is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion. For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world. (I am speaking, of course, of our present situation, not of ancient pagan, pre-Christian days. And I will not repeat what I tried to say in my essay, which you read.)

Do not laugh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story-the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths – which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. It should possess the tone and quality that I desired, somewhat cool and clear, be redolent of our 'air' (the clime and soil of the North West, meaning Britain and the hither parts of Europe: not Italy or the Aegean, still less the East), and, while possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land long now steeped in poetry.

I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. Absurd.

14. (On the creation of Mirkwood) “In terms of Mirkwood, it wasn't one of his own creations, he borrowed the word from Primitive Germanic.

As he writes in a letter to his grandson in 1966:

Mirkwood is not an invention of mine, but a very ancient name, weighted with legendary associations. It was probably the Primitive Germanic name for the great mountainous forest regions that anciently formed a barrier to the south of the lands of the Germanic expansion. In some traditions it became used specially for the boundary between Goths and Huns...
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Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Gandalf and other musings

1. (On Gandalf) “He's a lesser angel restricted in what he can do in Middle-earth by the Valar. He's there to guide and provide council to the Children of Iluvatar, not do as Sauron did and Melkor before him.”

2. “In Tolkien's Legendarium the highest power is Eru Iluvatar, the equivalent of god.

He created a race of angelic beings known as the Ainu to aid him in the creation of Arda. Middle-earth is a continent on this planet.

The higher ranking Ainu were named the Valar, the equivalent of Archangels, the less powerful ones were named the Maiar, equivalent of lesser angels.

The origin of all evil in Arda is the most powerful of the Ainu; Melkor, who rebelled against Eru and corrupted Mairon who became known as Sauron and the Fire Spirits which took on the forms of Balrogs. He also engineered the dragons, orcs, wolves etc

During the Second age after Melkor's banishment at the end of the First age, a Council of the Valar was held and it was decided that five Maia in the forms of wizards would go to Middle-earth from Valinor, the abode of the Valar, Maiar and highest of all Elves; the Vanyar to aid the peoples of Middle-earth against Sauron who had escaped Melkor's fate.”

3. (On Melkor’s rebellion) “He felt bitter that he as powerful as he was, was still just another of Eru's creations. It mirrors John Milton's depiction of Lucifer in Paradise Lost. He also felt impotent, he couldn't create in the same manner as Eru. This led him on a fruitless quest to search for the Flame Imperishable in the void (space) before Arda's creation, which he thought was the power behind Eru's creative abilities. He wanted it for himself, but little did he know that the Flame Imperishable was Eru. One and the same.

During the creation of Arda known as the Weaving of Arda is when he finally rebelled in full.

Sauron was obsessed with order and discipline, he couldn't achieve his goals aligned with the Valar and other Maiar and Melkor's tremendous might and beauty was enough to seduce him to evil. After Melkor's banishment he continued in his Master's footsteps in an effort to achieve his and Melkor's goals.

Although, there was a slight difference in what they wanted. Melkor was essentially a nihilist, he wanted complete destruction of Middle-earth and Arda. Sauron wanted complete dominion on the other hand.”

4. (On diminishment of the wizards while in Middle-earth) The following implies diminishment of many aspects of their nature:

Manwë summoned the Valar for a council [Maybe he had asked Eru for counsel] at which it was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-Earth and he asked who would go. They would have to lose might and clothe themselves in flesh to win the trust of Elves and Men but this would also imperil them, diminish their wisdom and knowledge and bring upon them fear, the care and weariness of the flesh. Only two came forward; Curumo [Saruman] and Alatar. Curumo was chosen by Aulë among "his" Maiar and Alatar was send by Oromë. Manwë asked where Olórin [Gandalf] was and Olórin just returned from a journey and coming to the meeting asked what he wanted from him and Manwë told that he wished him to go as the third to Middle-Earth. Olórin answered that he meant himself to weak for such a task and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go and he commanded him to go as the third. There Varda broke in and said "Not as the third" and Curumo remembered that.

5. (On inspiration) “In terms of inspiration; Tolkien used many sources to create and develop his Legendarium. The Norse mythos refers to specifically the three Eddas (Elder, Prose, Poetic) where themes relating to the Dwarven aspects of Tolkien Legendarium were borrowed and the names of many of Tolkien's Dwarves. The Volsunga Saga as well was the direct inspiration for characters such as Gollum and Smaug. The character Fafnir in particular. Welsh mythos also inspired Tolkien to create the Tale of Beren and Luthien. The Mabinogion also inspired one aspect of the One Ring (invisibility) while Plato's Ring of Gyges the other (corruption). Finnish mythos also greatly inspired Tolkien's Legendarium.”
6. “Tolkien used pre-existing ancient lore as a basis for much of his Legendarium including the aspects you're referring to, rather than basing it merely on the zeitgeist of his era.”

7. (On the flaming eye) “It was a metaphor for his reach and influence throughout Middle-Earth via his spies and those under his will. The flaming eye ball was certainly adapted by Peter too literally from the image that Frodo saw in the Mirror of Galadriel.”

8. (On bypassing the journey to Mordor) “To top it off, bypassing the journey altogether would have meant avoiding Gollum who was fated to destroy the One. Frodo was as much as a guide to him as Gollum was to him and Sam. Without Gollum's intervention at the Crack of Doom, Frodo would have kept the One and the following is best left to Tolkien to explain;

Frodo had become a considerable person, but of a special kind: in spiritual enlargement rather than in increase of physical or mental power; his will was much stronger than it had been, but so far it had been exercised in resisting not using the Ring and with the object of destroying it. He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him; before his will and arrogance could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile wills. Even so for a long time his acts and commands would still have to seem 'good' to him, to be for the benefit of others beside himself. The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man's weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility. I think they would have shown 'servility'. They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur – for instance 'to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes'. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance.

Frodo would by then probably have been already too enmeshed in great plans of reformed rule – like but far greater and wider than the vision that tempted Sam (III 177)5 – to heed this. But if he still preserved some sanity and partly understood the significance of it, so that he refused now to go with them to Barad-dûr, they would simply have waited. Until Sauron himself came. In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present.

9. (On the luddite nature of the Children of Iluvatar) “But that's not really the case though. If anything the Orcs/Goblins were representative of the industrialists that Tolkien was so wary of and the Children of Iluvatar were the luddites. The Goblins are established in The Hobbit as being capable of creating sophisticated machines far beyond the capabilities of mere savages and that is something on par with what Numenoreans (the most technologically advanced group of beings in Tolkien's Legendarium) did.”

10. "... so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child's model or a slave's flattery, of that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dûr, the Dark Tower, which suffered no rival, and laughed at flattery, biding its time, secure in its pride and its immeasurable strength."

The Istari

Latter writings of Tolkien's unpublished work tend to be the most valid and scholars tend to ascribe to those. But, that's not to say his earlier thoughts on the matter are invalidated, on the contrary, like any real world mythos, you must consider everything, even the smallest shreds.

I ascribe to the latter thoughts. That the Blue Wizards played a pivotal role in dealing with Sauron's eastern forces via subterfuge and propinquity with the people. .

What the Blue Wizards did also parallels certain characteristics of the Powers who sent them.

Gandalf - Wisest and most powerful of the Istari (although veiled). Sent by Manwe because of his his humbleness and closeness in mind, just as Manwe was closest in mind to Eru, unlike his 'brother' Melkor.

Saruman - Of Aule's lot, just as Sauron before him, obstinate, with creative ambitions, but unlike Aule, unwilling to humble himself as Aule did before Eru. Deemed to be the most powerful of the Istari by the unwise. Manwe and Varda certainly knew the truth. Cirdan too sensed it when Gandalf arrived from the West, thus giving Gandalf Narya, to be utilized to greater effect.

Radagast - An interesting one, deemed to have failed. But in whose eyes? He was sent by Mother Nature herself, Yavanna Kementari. A lover and protector of nature, dealing with the ills of Sauron as Yavanna commanded him to. Remaining in Middle-earth to carry on Yavanna's task of alleviating the ruin of Sauron and Melkor before. However, futile an endeavour. The very same futility that is so ingrained in Tolkien's mythos.

Alatar and Pallando - Of Orome's lot, thus far traveling, just as Orome (first of the Valar to lay eyes on the Elves) who roamed Middle-earth like no other Vala. But just as Orome was bested by Melkor in first discovering the Elves, so to were the Blue Wizards bested by Melkor with the Easterlings, who Melkor had seduced ages before.

The Istari are intriguing indeed, the most 'successful' was single minded in his quest to aid the peoples of Middle-earth, others seemingly with ulterior motives deemed less successful.

On Dragons

Dragons are one the great mysteries of Tolkien's mythos and need some explaining.

We have to look back again to the Lost Tales for his first writings on dragons:

"Now those drakes and worms are the evillest creatures that Melko has made, and the most uncouth, yet of all are they the most powerful, save it be the Balrogs only. A great cunning and wisdom have they, so that it has been long said amongst Men that whosoever might taste the heart of a dragon would know all tongues of Gods or Men, of birds or beasts, and his ears would catch whispers of the Valar or of Melko such as never had he heard before. Few have there been that ever achieved a deed of such prowess as the slaying of a drake, nor might any even of such doughty ones taste their blood and live, for it is as a poison of fires that slays all save the most godlike in strength. Howso that may be, even as their lord these foul beasts love lies and lust after gold and precious things with a great fierceness of desire, albeit they may not use nor enjoy them. Thus was it that this lókë (for so do the Eldar name the worms of Melko) suffered the Orcs to slay whom they would and to gather whom they listed into a very great and very sorrowful throng of women, maids, and little children, but all the mighty treasure that they had brought from the rocky halls and heaped glistering in the sun before the doors he coveted for himself and forbade them set finger on it, and they durst not withstand him, nor could they have done so an they would."

"Many are the dragons that Melko has loosed upon the world and some are more mighty than others. Now the least mighty - yet were they very great beside the men of those days - are cold as is the nature of snakes and serpents, and of them a many having wings go with the uttermost noise and speed; but the mightier are hot and very heavy and slow-going, and some belch flame, and fire flickereth beneath their scales, and the lust and greed and cunning evil of these is the greatest of all creatures: and such was the Foalókë whose burning there set all the places of his habitation in waste and desolation. Already greater far had this worm waxen than in the days of the onslaught upon the Rodothlim, and greater too was his hoarded treasure, for Men and Elves and even Orcs he slew, or enthralled that they served him, bringing him food to slake his lust [?on] precious things, and spoils of their harryings to swell his hoard."

Later in the Lost Tales Tolkien give another description:

"Now the end of this was that Melko aided by the cunning of Meglin devised a plan for the overthrow of Gondolin. For this Meglin's reward was to be a great captaincy among the Orcs - yet Melko purposed not in his heart to fulfil such a promise - but Tuor and Earendel should Melko burn, and Idril be given to Meglin's arms - and such promises was that evil one fain to redeem. Yet as meed of treachery did Melko threaten Meglin with the torment of the Balrogs. Now these were demons with whips of flame and claws of steel by whom he tormented those of the Noldoli who durst withstand him in anything - and the Eldar have called them Malkarauki. But the rede that Meglin gave to Melko was that not all the host of the Orcs nor the Balrogs in their fierceness might by assault or siege hope ever to overthrow the walls and gates of Gondolin even if they availed to win unto the plain without. Therefore he counselled Melko to devise out of his sorceries a succour for his warriors in their endeavour. From the greatness of his wealth of metals and his powers of fire he bid him make beasts like snakes and dragons of irresistible might that should overcreep the Encircling Hills and lap that plain and its fair city in flame and death."

"Now the years fare by, and egged by Idril Tuor keepeth ever at his secret delving; but seeing that the leaguer of spies hath grown thinner Turgon dwelleth more at ease and in less fear. Yet these years are filled by Melko in the utmost ferment of labour, and all the thrall-folk of the Noldoli must dig unceasingly for metals while Melko sitteth and deviseth fires and calleth flames and smok-es to come from the lower heats, nor doth he suffer any of the Noldoli to stray ever a foot from their places of bondage. Then on a time Melko assembled all his most cunning smiths and sorcerers, and of iron and flame they wrought a host of monsters such as have only at that time been seen and shall not again be till the Great End. Some were all of iron so cunningly linked that they might flow like slow rivers of metal or coil themselves around and above all obstacles before them, and these were filled in their innermost depths with the grimmest of the Orcs with scimitars and spears; others of bronze and copper were given hearts and spirits of blazing fire, and they blasted all that stood before them with the terror of their snorting or trampled whatso escaped the ardour of their breath; yet others were creatures of pure flame that writhed like ropes of molten metal, and they brought to ruin whatever fabric they came nigh, and iron and stone melted before them and became as water, and upon them rode the Balrogs in hundreds; and these were the most dire of all those monsters which Melko devised against Gondolin."

"And now came the Monsters across the valley and the white towers of Gondolin reddened before them; but the stoutest were in dread seeing those dragons of fire and those serpents of bronze and iron that fare already about the hill of the city; and they shot unavailing arrows at them. Then is there a cry of hope, for behold, the snakes of fire may not climb the hill for its steepness and for its glassiness, and by reason of the quenching waters that fall upon its sides; yet they lie about its feet and a vast steam arises where the streams of Amon Gwareth and the Hames of the serpents drive together. Then grew there such a heat that women became faint and men sweated to weariness beneath their mail, and all the springs of the city, save only the fountain of the king, grew hot and smoked."

Christopher Tolkien had this to say:

“In The Silmarillion the dragons that came against Gondolin were 'of the brood of Glaurung', which 'were become now many and terrible'; whereas in the tale the language employed suggests that some at least of the 'Monsters' were inanimate 'devices', the construction of smiths in the forges of Angband. But even the 'things of iron' that 'opened about their middles' to disgorge bands of Orcs are called 'ruthless beasts', and Gothmog 'bade' them 'pile themselves'; those made of bronze or copper 'were given hearts and spirits of blazing fire'; while the 'fire-drake' that Tuor hewed screamed and lashed with its tail."

Very interesting; origins differ it seems and of course Balrogs riding dragons into battle evokes great imaginary.

The father of all dragons may have been a corrupted Maia who took dragon form, others were corruptions of Melkor engineered by him with the use of his great power, which he was wasting away on such things. The descendants of the great dragons of the First Age retained the sentience of their earlier kin.

And of course Tolkien was using dragons of lore as his inspiration; the dragon of Beowulf and Fafnir of the Volsunga Saga.

Tolkien had this say of dragons in general in his famous lecture on Beowulf.

"As for the dragon: as far as we know anything about these old poets, we know this: the prince of the heroes of the North, supremely memorable – hems nafn mun uÞÞi meðan veröldin stendr - was a dragon-slayer. And his most renowned deed, from which in Norse he derived his title Fáfnisbani, was the slaying of the prince of legendary worms. Although there is plainly considerable difference between the later Norse and the ancient English form of the story alluded to in Beowulf, already there it hadthese two primary features: the dragon, and the slaying of him as the chief deed of the greatest of heroes – he wæs wreccena wide mærost. A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men's imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. Even to-day (despite the critics) you may find men not ignorant of tragic legend and history, who have heard of heroes and indeed seen them, who yet have been caught by the fascination of the worm. More than one poem in recent years (since Beowulf escaped somewhat from the dominion of the students of origins to the students of poetry) has been inspired by the dragon of Beowulf, but none that I know of by Ingeld son of Froda."
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Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Tolkien and Beowulf: An analysis

Beowulf’s text survives in a single manuscript copy in the British Library and is dated to about the year 1010. The circumstances of Beowulf’s composition are unknown and its date is not agreed, but there is evidence to suggest that it may have reached its present form before 850. Beowulf is a literary poem but many of its techniques originate in older oral traditions. It has more than three thousand lines and is the first large poem in English, even so, there is no reference to Britain. So one must ask, what its interest was for English hearers, some of whom had settled in Britain for as many as ten generations? Later audiences have found it a good story, but for its first audiences it was a good story about their ancestors.

Beowulf is the best known Old English poem, but there are others such as The Wanderer and The Seafarer. Compared with other narrative verse, Beowulf is considered richer and more elevated in style. As an epic it can be compared to Homer’s two great works. But it is more condensed and elegiac in tone than Homer’s poems, and is considerably closer to Virgil’s masterpiece; The Aeneid. Two things Beowulf does extremely well is show Old English poetic style and versification at their best.

But what of Tolkien and his feelings towards the unknown author (s) of the poem? Tolkien’s published comments make it clear that he felt a relationship with his completely anonymous and long dead predecessors, and much closer than one merely scholarly. In his lecture on the poem (above) Tolkien summed up generations of scholarship with the following words:

“Slowly with the rolling years the obvious (so often the last revelation of analytic study) has been discovered: that we have to deal with a poem by an Englishman using afresh ancient and largely traditional material.”

The description of the poet would be a fitting description of Tolkien. An Englishman certainly. For Tolkien was well aware that his surname had a German derivation (just as scholars of the past tried to make out that Beowulf was Frisian or Danish or indeed German); but he also knew that the derivation was centuries old (just like Beowulf), and insisted repeatedly that he felt himself to be an Englishman of the West Midlands, a Mercian.

As for using afresh ancient and largely traditional material, that is exactly the approach he took in creating his Legendarium, which he was at such pains to root in ancient, forgotten English tradition.

There are three major published analyses commenting on the poem, the 1936 lecture ‘Monsters and Critics’, the 1940 essay ‘On translating Beowulf’ and the posthumously published 1963 lectures under the name of ‘Finn and Hengest’ (1982). The 1936 lecture is accepted as the starting point for almost all modern criticism of Beowulf and is one of the most cited scholarly papers of all time. The 1940 essay is rarely cited and the 1982 publication has been all but forgotten. But this is very normal for Tolkien, only a few of his papers are regarded as field defining, the rest would have sunk without a trace, but for their connection to his fiction. Whether it be his writings on fairy stories, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Ancrene Wisse or Beowulf, what energized his scholarly writings was his close identification with the ancient writers who he passionately believed to have sprung from the same ground and talked the same language as himself and gave him a privileged insight into what they thought and what they meant. This identification was at its strongest with the unknown poet (s) of Beowulf.

Beowulf also had a key influence on some aspects of his fiction. To take just one example in detail. In The Two Towers, the approach and entrance of Aragorn and company into Meduseld follows the etiquette of Beowulf lines 229-405 almost exactly. The first challenge, leave taking by the first challenger, the second challenge by the warden of the door, the pilling of arms outside the hall, and the reception standing in front of the throne.

Not just etiquette, the name ‘Meduseld’ is merely a word from the poem at line 3065 (‘mon mid his magum meduseld buan’, translated to ‘to inhabit the mead-hall with one’s kin’) that is capitalized by Tolkien. Edoras too is also formed by capitalizing a word in Beowulf from line 1037 and changing it slightly from its West Saxon form to a Mercian one, i.e. ‘in under eoderas; þara anum stod’.

Another aspect that Tolkien picked up from Beowulf aided him with the tricky issue of the Valar and his own personal beliefs. In the Book of Lost Tales when Tolkien first started writing about them, they seem more like the deities of the pagan Celtic or Norse pantheons. Although Tolkien did tone this similarity down in later life, because the appearance of such deities would contradict the First Commandment. By the time of the Silmarillion, they are firmly subordinate, angelic beings. Once again Tolkien found inspiration from the Beowulf poet (s). At the beginning of Beowulf, Scyld Scefing comes from over the waves to the Danish people in a miraculous manner, he reestablishes the kingdom and then dies. He is put in a boat laden with treasure by his people, who then entrust the boat to the waves, as if they expect him to return to whoever he came from. The poet says “this hoard was not less great than the gifts he had from those who at the outset had adventured him over the seas, alone, a small child” (lines 44-46). But who are ‘those’? No further clues are given and the poet even denies knowledge. The word þā, meaning ‘those’ in Old English is used 62 times in the poem, but it is only on this occasion in which it takes stress and alliteration. It could have been written as ‘He’ and ascribed as a miracle of god, but for whatever reason it is ascribed to an unknown group of beings, who possess supernatural powers, and who use them selectively and very occasionally for the benefit of mankind, just as the Valar do.

Many more examples of the influence of Beowulf can be discussed, ‘dragon-sickness’, the etymology of Saruman’s name and so forth, but to conclude, the relationship between Tolkien and the unknown poet (s) is much more than merely a scholarly one, but one that impelled Tolkien’s ambition to provide a mythology for his country.


On Tom Bombadil

"Who is Tom Bombadil?” asks Frodo fearing it a foolish question. Goldberry’s response of "He is” has led to much discussion for Tolkien fans. Some have equated “He is” to the biblical “I am” mistakenly equating Tom with Eru Iluvatar. Frodo also mistakes Golberry’s use of the word “Master” confusing it with power and domination.

Further on:

Frodo asks, "Then all this strange land belongs to him?”

Goldberry responds, "No indeed!” “The trees and the grasses and all things growing or living in the land belong each to themselves. Tom Bombadil is the Master".

Note that she actually doesn't explain what she means, but simple repeats the key word, "Master". Now we must turn to the Letters of Tolkien for some clarification.

"He is master in a peculiar way: he has no fear and no desire of possession or domination at all"

Clearly is seems that the philologist Tolkien is using the word in the sense of 'teacher' or 'authority', its original Latin usage. But that says what but not who and doesn't answer Frodo's question at all.

Further on, Frodo, trying to get a straight answer, asks Tom "Who are you Master?" . Tom frustratingly answers the question with a question:

"Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer."

In the Letters (#153), Tolkien explained that:
"Goldberry and Tom are referring to the mystery of names."
Another clue, but still no answer.

At the Council of Elrond, the mystery deepens even more as Tom acquires more names that also say what, but not who he. The Men of the North call him 'Orald' (Old English for 'very ancient'). The Dwarves call him 'Forn', an Icelandic word meaning 'old', as in the ancient past. Elrond name for him is 'Iarwain Ben-adar', oldest and fatherless, which is a literal translation of Sindarin iarwain, 'old-young' and ben , 'without,' plus adar, 'father'.

All of these names essentially express the same idea, it seems that the additional names of Tom add only a common acknowledgment of age to our knowledge of who he is.

The 'is' from Goldberry's initial statement is the operative word. Tom as the oldest being comes before history and therefore cannot be related to or associated with anything but himself, his own existence. Tom Bombadil is pre-language and therefore not formed by language, saying of himself:

"Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made the first paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving.... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless before the Dark Lord (Tom referring to Melkor here) came from Outside".

As with Väinämöinen, the eternal singer of the Kalevala (one of the key germs of inspiration for Tolkien), Tom is Arda's oldest sentient being. He is self begotten, fatherless, pre-existent. He simply 'is'.

The idea seems to be that there is an important connection between thing and word, and that each in a sense creates the other.
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Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Hobbit origins

One of the recurring questions Tolkien faced from the first publication of The Hobbit to the end of his life was ‘where did you get the name “hobbits” from? While there seems little doubt that he was telling the truth when he said he simply made it up, the issue was confused in the mid-1970s by the discovery, in a nineteenth-century collection of North Country folklore, of the word ‘hobbit’ among a list of faires, spirits, creatures from classical mythology, and other imaginary beings. The discovery was made by Katharine Briggs, the leading expert of her time on traditional fairy folklore who reprinted the list in her A Dictionary of Fairies: Hobgoblins, Brownies, Bogies, and Other Supernatural Creatures. Briggs herself did not comment on the appearance of hobbits in the list, but her discovery was soon picked up on by an outside reader for the OED and thence reported in various newspapers (including most notably Philip Howard’s piece ‘Tracking the Hobbit Down to Earth’, which appeared in The Times on 31st May 1977), but for the most part without crediting Briggs for her role in the discovery. The list itself has appeared in a miscellany published by the Folklore Society, the full title of which was The Dehham Tracts: A Collection of Folklore by Michael Aislabie Denham, and reprinted from the original tracts and pamphlets printed by Mr Denham between 1846 and 1859. Edited by Dr James Hardy, this had been issued in two volumes in 1892 and 1895.

Despite its apparent plausibility, it is highly unlikely that the Denham Tracts was actually Tolkien’s source for The Hobbit. How then do you explain this coincidence? For one thing, English folklore traditions about ‘hobs’ played a part in Tolkien’s creation, including the name, and since this is the case it is not so surprising to find that Tolkien’s invention, his own personal variant, can be matched by actual example from historical record, albeit an obscure one.

Tolkien’s gift for nomenclature was posited on creating words that sounded like real ones, creating matches of sound and sense that felt as if they were actual words drawn from the vast body of lore that had somehow failed to be otherwise recorded. That his invention should match actual obscure historical words was inevitable provided he did his work well enough, as is also attested by the accidental resemblance of his place-name Gondor (inspired by the actual historic word ‘ond’ (stone), which had once been thought to be a fragment of a lost pre-IndoEuropean language of the British isles) to both the real world Gondar (a city in Northern Ethiopia, also sometimes spelled Gonder, once that country’s capital) and the imaginary Gondour (a utopia invented by Mark Twain in the story ‘The Curious Republic of Gondour). It is a tribute to Tolkien’s skill with word-building that his invented hobbit should prove to have indeed had a real-world predecessor, though Tolkien himself probably never knew of it.

The name Bilbo

Like the similar hobbit names Bingo, Ponto, Bungo, and Drogo, all of which eventually end up in Baggins family tree, ‘Bilbo’ is both a short and simple, made-up name appropriate for the hero of a light-hearted fantasy story and also the sort of nickname that was actually used in England at the time of The Hobbit’s creation, as preserved in the humorous tales of P.G Wodehouse. Examples of the former include Gorbo, the main character of The Marvellous Land of Snergs and Pombo, the anti-hero of one of Dunsany’s short tales.

Bilbo is of course a real surname, which while rare survives into modern times. As the OED bears witness, ‘bilbo’ also exists, alone or in combination in several archaic common nouns, he most important of which is the name of a type of well-tempered sword originating from Bibao in Spain. Such ‘bilbow’ blades were often simply called a ‘bilbo’ often uppercased. Similarly, a kind of shackles was also known from the mid-sixteenth century as a ‘bilbo’ or ‘bilbow’, and a cup-and -ball game popular in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries called ‘bilbo-catch’. But it seems unlikely that our Bilbo’s name derives from any these.

Exploring linguistic associations no doubt gave Tolkien ideas of things he could do with the character, just as scholarly researches seem to have led him to later incorporate some elements of Plato’s ring of Gyges into his own ring of invisibility, but they are not likely to have been the source of his name. Like hobbit, itself, Bilbo is almost certainly Tolkien’s own coinage.

Gandalf the Wizard

Gandalf the wizard in The Hobbit, later developed into Gandalf the Grey of The Lord of the Rings. One of the most important characters in the story, but it is difficult to tell in his first appearance how much the later character was present in Tolkien’s mind in The Hobbit and how much he developed in the course of Tolkien’s writings, partly because the character in The Hobbit is deliberately kept somewhat mysterious. Certainly, the phase ‘Gandalf the Grey’ is never used in The Hobbit, being part of many layers of later accretions the character picked up over the years. Gandalf in The Hobbit in contrast is never associated with any one colour , indeed, the first description of him offers quite a variety; blue hat, grey cloak, silver scarf white beard and black boots. Gandalf is an ennobled character in The Lord of the Rings, in comparison to the wandering wizard who flits in and out of the narrative of The Hobbit.

This Odinic figure is an angel in incarnated form, a Maia, one of the five Istari, bearer of the Ring of Fire, whose other names are Mithrandir and Olorin, who passes through death and returns as Gandalf he White, the Enemy of Sauron, altogether a much more dignified, powerful, and political figure than the ‘little old man’ Bilbo meets on his doorstep one day in the quiet of the world. In the essay on the Istari, Tolkien states that they were supposed at first by those that had dealings with them to be men who had acquired lore and arts by long secret study. However, it is by no means clear whether or not Tolkien himself was of the same opinion when he first wrote The Hobbit. Like so much else in the story, Gandalf’s nature is ambiguous, no doubt deliberately; so he might be human, or he might be something more. If we only had The Hobbit itself to go by, we should certainly have no reason to doubt that he was what he appeared, ‘a little old man’.

However, The Hobbit does not stand alone and once viewed in the context of The Silmarillion material, Tolkien’s other tales and its own sequel, the case for Hobbit Gandalf being more than human grows somewhat stronger. If Hobbit Gandalf and similar figures appearing in Tolkien’s other writings such as Roverdandom’s Artaxerxes are not human, is it possible to determine where they fit within the context of Tolkien’s legendarium? The key figure in answering that question is Tuvo the wizard, a figure who evolved into Tu the fay and eventually Thu the Necromancer. Tuvo is emphatically neither elf or human ( in fact he plays a part in the discovery and awakening of the first humans in Middle-earth) but rather a fay, the catch-all term Tolkien used at the time for beings created before the world and who came to inhabit it, including the Maiar. Thus, from Tolkien’s very first wizard, who existed in the unfinished ‘Gilfanon’s Tale at least a decade before Hobbit Gandalf first came on the scene, can already be found the conceptual precedent for Tolkien’s much later bald statement that ‘Gandalf is an angel’ or at least in the case of Hobbit Gandalf, a supernatural being incarnated within the world, neither human nor mortal but very human in his behaviour and character.

On Gollum

One of Tolkien's greatest characters makes his auspicious debut in The Hobbit. The most surprising usually overlooked by readers, is that Gollum is cleary not a hobbit in the original edition of The Hobbit nor the earlier drafts - "I don't know where he came from or what he was" says the narrator, and there's no reason not to think he speaks for the author and take him for his word. It's not clear in the drafts whether Gollum is one of the 'orginal owners' who predate the goblins, 'still there in odd corners' or one of the 'other things' that 'sneaked in from outside' in his territory within the Misty Mountains. But in any case, all the details of the description argue against his being hobbit-kin. Unlike Bilbo, the hobbit, Gollum is 'dark as darkness', with long fingers, large webbed feet that flap when he walks (unlike the silent hobbit) and 'long eyes', huge and pale, tht not only protrude 'like telescopes' but actually project light. Small wonder that early illustators like Horus Engels depict a huge, monstrous creature rather than the small, emanciated figure Tolkien eventually envisioned. Not until he came to write The Lord of the Rings, and forced himself to confront all the unanswered questions in The Hobbit that might be exploited for further adventures, did Tolkien have the inspiration to make Gollum a hobbit.

He subsequently very skillfully inserted a new idea into the earler book through the addition of small details in the initial description of the creature. Thus the readings in the third edition (1966), with interpolations highlighted in italics:
"Deep down here by the dark water live old Gollum, a small slimy creature... as dark as darkness, except for two big round pale eyes in his thin face.

Just as Tolkien changed his mind, or rather, delved more deeply into the subject in the course of writing The Lord of the Rings before finally committing himself as to Gollum's origin, so too he changed the character's personality in the post-publication revisions. For Gollum is far more honorable in the first draft and first edition than he later appears. He is perfectly willing, ever eager, to eat Bilbo, should the hobbit lose, but abides by the results: "Bilbo need not have been frightened. For one thing the Gollum had learned long long ago was never to cheat..."

One should also note that Gollum's distintive speech pattern, his hissing, overuse of sibilants, and peculiarity of referring to himslef in the plural was present from the very first, although greatly emphasised by revisions prior to publication. As you might expect, though, it is somewhat more erratic inthe draft, particulary in the matter of pronouns, thus he at first refers to Bilbo several times as 'he' before sliding into the depersonalized 'it', and once as 'you'. Similarly, he refers to himself as 'ye' at one point rather than his usual 'we/us'. Interestingly enough, it is quite clear that 'my precious' originally applied only to Gollum himself and the not ring; Gollum 'always spoke to himself not to you', usually in first person plural, yet he refers to the the ring as 'it' ("bless us splash us, we haven't the present we promised, and we haven't got it for ourselves"). Some of these aberrant elements remained in the published text, even through Tolkien's careful revisions of 1947 and in his recording of the Gollum-episode in 1952 (released originally as J.R.R Tolkien reads ans sings his The Hobbit and The Fellowship of the Ring and now available from Harper Audio as part of the J.R.R Tolkien Audio Collection).

The best description of Gollum comes in an unpublished commentary Tolkien made regarding Pauline Baynes' depiction of various characters from The Lord of the Rings in the headpiece and tailpiece to her 'Map of Middle-earth. While Tolkien's fondness for Baynes' earlier work on Tolkien's legendarium is evident, he disliked this piece so much that he wrote an essay critiquing her attempt in which he describes each member of the Fellowship as he pictured them, an invaluable aid to any future illustrator of his work. In this he dismissed her Gollum as reminiscent of 'the Michelin tyre man' and included the following description of Gollum as he ultimately envisioned him:
"Gollum was according to Gandalf one of the riverside hobbit people and therefore in origin a member of a small variety of the human race, although he became deformed during his long inhabiting of the dark lake. His long hands are therefore more of less right. Not his feet. They are exaggerated. They are described as webby, like a swan's, but had prehensile toes. But he was very thin, emanciated, not plump and rubbery; he had for his size a large head and a long thin neck, very large eyes (protuberant), and thin lank hair... He is often said to be dark or black where he was in moonlight.

Gollum was never naked. He had a pocket... He evidently had black garments, like the famished skeleton of some child of Men, its ragged garment still clinging to it, its long arms and legs almost bone-white and bone-thin.
His skin was white no doubt with a pallor increased by dwelling long in the dark, and later by hunger. He remained a human being, not an animal or a mere bogey, even if deformed in mind and body: an object of disgust, but also pity to the deep sighted, such as Frodo had become. There is no need to wonder how he came by clothes or replaced them; any consideration of the tale will show that he had plenty of oppurtunities by theft, or charity (as of the Wood-elves), throughout his life". - From The Bodleian Department of Western Manuscripts, Tolkien Papers, A61 folders 1-31.

Magic rings

The most important point of connection between The Hobbit and its sequel The Lord of the Rings, is he ring itself. Just as Hobbit s, wizards and he whole setting in Middle-earth were transformed for he more ambitious requirements of he later book, so too did the ring. For Bilbo’s ring is not the same as Frodo’s in its nature nor its powers, although the alteration was so smoothly done, with such subtlety and skill, that few readers grasp the extent of the change; many who read or re-read The Hobbit after The Lord of the Rings unconsciously import more sinister associations for the ring into the earlier book than the story itself supports. It is important to remember that Tolkien did not just expand the ring’s effects for the sequel; he actually altered them.

Tolkien’s source for the ring has been much debated. His exact source will probably never be known for the simple reason that he probably didn’t have one in the sense of a single direct model. Magical rings are, after all, common in both literature and folklore, among the most famous being Aladdin’s genie ring, Odin’s Draupnir and the cursed Ring of the Nibelungs, none of which have the power to make their wearers invisible. Similarly, magical items that make one invisible are so common that Stith Thompson’s Motif-Index of Folk Literature has three full pages listing various forms such an item make take; a feather or herb, a belt or cap, a sword or jewel or helmet, pills or a salve, a wand or staff or ring, a mirror or boots or stone or ashes, or any number of stranger means. The combination of these two motifs, however are surprisingly rare; of the vast number of items that confer invisibility, and the huge number of magical rings, there are surprisingly few rings of invisibility before Tolkien popularized the idea.

Of the small number of distinct rings of invisibility in five distinct works - one classical (Plato’s Ring of Gyges), one medieval (the ring in ‘The Lady of the Fountain’ from the Malbinogion ), one renaissance (the Ring of Angelica from Ariosto’s ‘Orlando Furioso’), one from a literary fairy tale of the Enlightenment (Fenelon’s ‘The Enchanted Ring’ found in Andrew Lang’s collection ‘The Green Fairy Book’) and one from a reconstructed folk tale of the Romantic era ( the ring in Kreutzwald’s ‘The Dragon of the North’ found now in ‘The Yellow Fairy Book’ ) – the one likeliest to have influenced Tolkien in The Hobbit is Owein’s ring in ‘The Lady of the Fountain’ ( “Take this ring and put it on thy finger, and put this stone in thy hand and close thy fist over the stone; as long as thou conceal it, it will conceal thee too… And Owein did everything the maiden bade him… But when they came to look for him they saw nothing… And that vexed them. And Owein slipped away from their midst”). It seems very likely, however, that both Plato’s account and perhaps Fenelon’s as well contributed something to the One Ring as Tolkien developed it in The Lord of the Rings, never forgetting, however that he primary influence on Frodo’s ring is in fact The Hobbit itself; here as so often, Tolkien is his own main source. Doubtless, other rings of invisibility exist, but no ring exactly like Bilbo’s has been discovered and it seems likely that is because it was Tolkien’s own invention, giving his hero an edge to offset his small size and lack of martial experience and given limitations because that improved the challenges the hobbit would face, creating a better story.

On Dwarves

In their earlier appearances in Tolkien’s tales, the dwarves had always been portrayed as an evil people, allies of goblins, mercenaries of Morgoth, pillagers of one of the great elven kingdoms. Thus their characterization in The Hobbit is totally at variance with what is said and shown of them in the old legends. And the break is both sudden and complete: no intermediate sages prepared the way. For them to be treated sympathetically as heroes of the new story is nothing short of amazing: no less surprising than if a company of goblin wolf-riders had ridden up to Bag-End seeking a really first-class burglar.

It is difficult to pinpoint exactly where the dwarves entered the mythology, but it was sometime during the Lost Tales period (1917-1920). They played a major role in one of the tales, ‘The Nauglafring: The Necklace of the Dwarves’ and are mentioned in passing in three others; ‘The Tale of Tinuviel’, ‘Turambar and the Foaloke’ and the unfinished ‘Gilfanon’s Tale’. Throughout these early stories they are viewed exclusively from an unflattering elvish perspective, one best conveyed by an entry in the Gnomish Lexicon, where he Goldogrin/Gnomish word nauglafel is glossed as ‘dwarf-natured’, i.e.mean, avaricious (Parma Eldalamberon XI. 59).

The Tale of Turambar’s portrayal of Mim the Fatherless, he first dwarf of note in the legendarium, establishes Tolkien’s dwarves as guardians of vast treasure hoards as well as the originators of inimical curses. The image of ‘an old misshapen dwarf who sat ever on the pile of gold singing black songs of enchantment to himself’ and who ‘by many dark spells, bind it to himself’, along with the dying curse he lays upon the treasure, comes directly from the Icelandic legends which formed such a large part of Tolkien’s professional repertoire. In particular, the old story of the famous hoard of the Nibelungs that plays a crucial part in works as different as the Volsunga Saga, Snorri’s Prose Edda, the Nibelungenlied, and Wagner’s Ring Cycle provides the motif of a treasure stolen from the dwarves which later brings disaster upon all those who seek to claim it, even the descendants and kin of the original owners.
Another work that Tolkien was much interested in for the glimpses it provided of ancient lore, the Heidreks Saga, features an episode wherein a hero captures the dwarves Dvalin and Durin and forces them to forge him a magical sword; they do so but before departing lay a curse upon it so that once drawn I can never be resheathed until it has taken a human life. This saga is also the source of one of Gollum’s riddles and one of the sources for Dwalin’s and Durin’s names.

Unedifying though it may be, ‘The Nauglafring’ does offer us the first extended view of Tolkien’s dwarves, one so much at variance with the race as developed in The Hobbit that Tolkien eventually obliged to create a new name for the old race, ‘the petty dwarves’, to distinguish the people of Mim from Durin’s Folk and their peers, the kindred of the Seven Houses of the Dwarves and the ancestors of Thorin Oakenshield.
The mysteries surrounding the dwarves’ origins expressed in ‘The Nauglafring’ (They are strange race and none know surely whence they be; and they serve not Melko nor Manwe and reck not for Elf or Man, and some say that they had not heard of Iluvatar, or hearing disbelieve), endured to the time of The Hobbit’s composition and beyond. The Silmarillion’s account of Aule’s creation of the dwarves did not enter the mythology until around the time of The Hobbit’s publication and thus postdate he book’s composition by roughly half a decade.
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terrisus

Member
Edmond Dantès;128564807 said:
This might be useful to Tolkien GAF in the future. The 'consolidated Edmond Dantès on Tolkien'. A collection of my quotes and analyses whilst a member of this forum and community. (Probably full of spelling and grammatical errors as I haven't had the time to proof read.)

You should totally compile this into a book >.>
 
Dantes what do you know about the Once and Future King? I know White removed parts
(notably Merlin vs Mim)
from the Sword in the Stone portion for the American release...I was wondering if you knew of a solid edition of the entire set to pick up, that includes those edits or a definitive edition?
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Dantes what do you know about the Once and Future King? I know White removed parts
(notably Merlin vs Mim)
from the Sword in the Stone portion for the American release...I was wondering if you knew of a solid edition of the entire set to pick up, that includes those edits or a definitive edition?
The 1938 text of The Sword in the Stone is still available as a standalone novel, but there are no versions of the Once and Future King that incorporate that text. The revised edition is used.

I'd recommend buying The Sword in the Stone separately.

In terms of The Once and Future King the following are worthy editions;

http://www.foliosociety.com/book/OFK/once-and-future-king

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00CF69BFM/

The Folio edition is charming, but doesn't include The Book of Merlyn. The Harper Voyager Classics edition is also nice, but is somewhat riddled with silly spelling mistakes. It does include The Book of Merlyn.

I'd also recommend the following study of the Once and Future King by Elisabeth Brewer to supplement your reading:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0859913937/
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings: Deluxe Pocket Boxed Set

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Release date: 21 October 2014.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0544445783/

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0544445783/?tag=neogaf0e-20


Perfect for taking on adventures.
 

Loxley

Member
Middle-earth Turns 100 Years Old Today

Today marks 100 years since Middle-earth first came into being. On 24 September 1914, Tolkien wrote the poem ‘The Voyage of Éarendel the Evening Star’. It was, as Christopher Tolkien described it, “the first of the mythology”.

This video features highlights from John Garth’s talk at Oxonmoot 2014, in which he talks about the poem and the centenary of Middle-earth. The talk was derived from his forthcoming Tolkien Studies 11 paper, ‘The road from adaptation to invention: How Tolkien came to the brink of Middle-earth in 1914′.

Éarendel sprang up from the Ocean’s cup
In the gloom of the mid-world’s rim;
From the door of Night as a ray of light
Leapt over the twilight brim,
And launching his bark like a silver spark
From the golden-fading sand;
Down the sunlit breath of Day’s fiery Death
He sped from Westerland.

The poem is about Éarendel the mariner who most readers meet in Bilbo’s ‘Song of Eärendil’ in The Lord of the Rings or towards the end of ‘Quenta Silmarillion’ in The Silmarillion (1977). It was written by the 22-year-old Tolkien at Phoenix Farm (his aunt Jane Neave’s house) in Gedling, Nottinghamshire.

Part of the original version can be found in Tolkien and the Great War, p. 45, while a later (and fuller) version is in The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, pp. 268-9.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
New edition of The Adventures of Tom Bombadil

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One of the most intriguing characters in The Lord of the Rings, the amusing and enigmatic Tom Bombadil, also appears in verses said to have been written by Hobbits and preserved in the ‘Red Book’ with stories of Bilbo and Frodo Baggins and their friends. The Adventures of Tom Bombadil collects these and other poems, mainly concerned with legends and jests of the Shire at the end of the Third Age.

This special edition has been expanded to include earlier versions of some of Tolkien’s poems, a fragment of a prose story with Tom Bombadil, and comprehensive notes by acclaimed Tolkien scholars Christina Scull and Wayne G. Hammond.
Release date: 9 Oct 2014

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0007557272/

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0007557272/?tag=neogaf0e-20
 
Tried perusing through the thread to see if I can find what I'm looking for before I ask. I watched the Quicklook for Shadows of Mordor and got really interested in Tolkien's education and linguistics application into his books like Brad was going on about. Is there any podcast or audio seminar that talks about it in length like Brad was about to do. Reading links will do, but for reason despite the fact the I prefer reading to anything. I really want to hear someone explain/talk about it verbally. Anything about the languages, his methodology (obviously that might be hard since he's dead) how it affects the story, etc.
 

Loxley

Member
Tried perusing through the thread to see if I can find what I'm looking for before I ask. I watched the Quicklook for Shadows of Mordor and got really interested in Tolkien's education and linguistics application into his books like Brad was going on about. Is there any podcast or audio seminar that talks about it in length like Brad was about to do. Reading links will do, but for reason despite the fact the I prefer reading to anything. I really want to hear someone explain/talk about it verbally. Anything about the languages, his methodology (obviously that might be hard since he's dead) how it affects the story, etc.

J.R.R. Tolkien's Imaginary Languages - by Edward Vajda, Western Washington University Linguistics Program director

A lecture on Tolkien and his use of language, skip to the 23rd minute mark if you want to get straight to the good stuff.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
I'd also recommend the following documentary as a starting point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkmNHP58OhU

It should be noted that 50 plus years of scholarly material exists dealing with Tolkien and his works. Almost impenetrable for a beginner. As always, the primary texts are the best place to start, followed by Christopher Tolkien's History series.

The above documentary does however deal with the basics quite well.
 
How much information did Tolkien give about what happened post War of the Ring? I seem to read a tiny bit of it every now and then but it doesn't seem like he gives much away beyond bits and pieces.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
How much information did Tolkien give about what happened post War of the Ring? I seem to read a tiny bit of it every now and then but it doesn't seem like he gives much away beyond bits and pieces.
Tolkien didn't expound upon the Fourth Age and beyond in any great detail. What he did write includes an unfinished narrative set in the Fourth Age (The New Shadow), and various writings via notes and letters postulating about the end of Arda and a 'new/healed Arda' free from the primal, aeonian discord of Melkor.

This second Arda was to be constructed, not only by Elves, but by the Dwarves too. A Kingdom of Heaven. Tolkien also reconsidered his thoughts on the Final Battle which was initially very Pagan in nature and reminiscent of the Ragnarök. He moved away from this and remarked that he knew not about the end. This reflected his personal thoughts about the end of all things more so than the Ragnarök concept.
 

Jacob

Member
How much information did Tolkien give about what happened post War of the Ring? I seem to read a tiny bit of it every now and then but it doesn't seem like he gives much away beyond bits and pieces.

There's very little about the Fourth Age other than what happens to the members of the Fellowship in the years and decades immediately following the end of the book. Most of this information is in the Appendices, particularly at the end of Appendix B. Tolkien also wrote an epilogue for LOTR, which he ultimately chose not to include, but was eventually published in The History of Middle-earth Volume IX, Sauron Defeated. It's framed as Sam telling his children about the world and gives a bit more insight into the changes that have taken place post-War of the Ring. I found it to be pretty interesting but it does sort of alter the effect of the "Well, I'm back" line being the very last thing we hear from a character.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
So, is Morgoth's Ring and War of the Jewel's worthwhile?
Two of the best in the History of Middle-earth series. It's essentially Christopher's in-depth study of The Silmarillion. Fundamental for a greater understanding of what his father was attempting with The Silmarillion.
 
What are the odds that we'll see a book set in the LOTR universe not written by JR or Christopher? Did they pretty much make it so that nobody else can touch LOTR in book form? What would have to happen in order for them to start farming it out like they do Star Wars books?
 

Loxley

Member
What are the odds that we'll see a book set in the LOTR universe not written by JR or Christopher? Did they pretty much make it so that nobody else can touch LOTR in book form? What would have to happen in order for them to start farming it out like they do Star Wars books?

The odds are practically zero at the moment. Tolkien's works would have to enter public domain for anyone not directly related to him to take a crack at the Legendarium. Unless the estate has a drastic change of heart, but that's highly unlikely.
 
The odds are practically zero at the moment. Tolkien's works would have to enter public domain for anyone not directly related to him to take a crack at the Legendarium. Unless the estate has a drastic change of heart, but that's highly unlikely.

Have any of his estate beyond Christopher spoken about it? Christopher has guarded it pretty fiercely but he's almost 90 now. What happens when the next generation takes over?
 

Loxley

Member
Have any of his estate beyond Christopher spoken about it? Christopher has guarded it pretty fiercely but he's almost 90 now. What happens when the next generation takes over?

Not that I know of. Dantès is far more knowledgeable about the Tolkien estate than I am. I'm sure he can provide you with some more definitive info :)
 

Jacob

Member
Have any of his estate beyond Christopher spoken about it? Christopher has guarded it pretty fiercely but he's almost 90 now. What happens when the next generation takes over?

Most of the members of the Tolkien family who are involved with the Estate/Trust are on the same page as Christopher. The most likely successor as literary executor is Christopher's younger son Adam Tolkien, who assisted his father with The Children of Hurin and is similarly negative about the movies. I bring up the movies because as far as I know no one has ever even asked the Estate about the idea of new Middle-earth books, probably because no one in the publishing or licensing world has ever publicly tried. To allow such books would be a complete reversal of the Estate's policy for guarding Tolkien's legacy, however. While recognizing that anything is theoretically possible, I feel very confident in saying that it's not going to happen.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
The art of Cor Blok and interview

Cor Blok met and corresponded with J.R.R. Tolkien in the 1960s, and Tolkien admired the artist's work so much that he purchased two paintings, one of which, The Battle of the Hornburg, appears in the Tolkien Official Calendar for 2011.
Some people may already be familiar with one or two examples of your work, which have been reproduced in anthologies and books of postcards; but they may not be aware that they form part of a collection. Can you clarify when they were made and how many of your Tolkien paintings are in existence?

Most of the paintings were done in 1959 and 1960, a few in 1961 and a single one (as far as I can remember) in 1962. According to the (not quite complete) record I kept there were 140 of them. But in later years I have destroyed a number of them – about a dozen I should think – because I found them lacking in pictorial quality. About seventy remain in my possession, most of them not of what I consider first quality.

The paintings have a very unique style; can you explain a little about this?

There is a rather long story behind this, but first I want to stress that my main interest in undertaking this ‘Tolkien project’ lay in the experiment of telling a story in a kind of pictorial shorthand, using a limited repertoire of largely standardized means, omitting everything that is not strictly necessary to the narrative. To give an example: The Game of Riddles – one of the earliest pictures – presents nothing but the two figures of Bilbo and Gollum, in postures that indicate what they are doing, against a plain blue-grey background. In a number of later paintings, particularly those of events taking place in a landscape setting, I admit to having deviated from this principle by adding more detail. Even then, however, I have attempted to steer clear of the obsession with detail which characterizes so many Tolkien illustrations, sometimes to the extent of suggesting ‘horror vacui’.

What you call the unique style of my paintings is derived from a certain type of Medieval miniature and mural painting from Barbarusia. Barbarusia, of course, does not exist. It is an invented country somewhere in mid-ocean, invented to provide a setting for a fictional art history running from Palaeolithic cave paintings to a local version of 20th century Futurism. It started with parodies on Baroque furniture and architecture done when I was following courses to become an art teacher at the Academy of Visual Art, The Hague, but soon the parodistic element retreated into the background as I became more and more fascinated by the game of devising variations on specific stylistic prototypes. A number of these were taken from actual historical styles, like Roman wall painting or Gothic architecture, but I also invented styles of my own. One of these concerned a group of early Medieval miniatures and murals from Central Barbarusia, and it is from this style that the ‘pictorial code’ used in my Tolkien illustrations derives.

Barbarusian art is also the source of the special technique used in the illustrations, which involves a very thin brand of Japanese paper painted on both sides and applied to a background covered with gouache still slightly wet. It was invented in order to make my frescos and miniatures look damaged by the passage of time.

The ‘Barbarusian project’ started in 1953. I continued to work on it at least until 1957/58; a rumour that I presented it as a graduation project from the Academy in 1956 is absolutely unfounded. It was exhibited at the Gemeentemuseum, The Hague, in 1960; for this occasion I made a few three-dimensional objects to complete the otherwise two-dimensional show, which opened on 1st April.

Why did you choose to illustrate The Lord of the Rings; this style and technique could equally well be applied to the Edda or even the Bible, for example?

I actually did a couple of Bible illustrations, among them a picture of King Solomon’s successor threatening his subjects by telling them that his little finger would be thicker than his father’s loins – visualized very literally. But The Lord of the Rings happened to come to my notice, I think, in 1958, (in the Dutch translation) and though I was not immediately attracted, when I started to read it seriously I came to feel that the story would lend itself to being re-told in pictures in the manner of my ‘Barbarusian’ paintings. Eventually, this proved true enough to keep me busy for three years. During this time I read both the translation and the original.

Though it all happened fifty years ago, can you recall what influences were particularly important in the case of these illustrations?

For one thing, ‘Barbarusia’ made me aware of the fact that a ‘style’ is in fact a set of rules like those of a game, which restricts your movements but challenges you to make the utmost of what is allowed, and in the most ingenious manner possible. Also, that a style need not be something that grows naturally from an artist’s personality or from a collective unconscious: one can consciously adopt a set of rules to serve as a ‘style’, even for specific occasions. During my studies at the Academy I had become very much interested in a great variety of pictorial ‘languages’ – from the ancient Middle East to China, pre-Columbian America and all the so-called ‘primitive arts’. This provided one of the stimuli to create Barbarusian art. Of particular interest to me were the ancient Mixtec and Aztec chronicles with their elaborate and visually fascinating symbolism.

Out of these experiences developed a lifelong preoccupation with visual images as a means of communication. From 1963 until 1965 I worked as a staff member on the Educational Department of the Gemeentemuseum, where I had a large share in the preparation of an exhibition called ‘Taal en Teken’ in the spring of 1965. This led me into research on subjects like Chinese writing, American Indian picture writing and the work of Otto Neurath on pictorial statistics, which partly provided the material for my book Beeldspraak published in 1967.

Although done a couple of years earlier, the Tolkien pictures fit into this line of development. More specific influences on the style of the paintings came from ‘real’ (i.e. non-Barbarusian) Medieval painting, Persian and Indian miniatures, and the work of Pieter Brueghel the Elder. I have always admired the latter’s way of circumscribing entire figures within a clear and simple closed outline. The Bayeux Tapestry was also on my mind, but as far as I can recall modern comic strips began to consciously interest me only when the ‘Tolkien project’ was already well under way. Interest in them was stimulated by Roy Lichtenstein’s use of them in his paintings and by the appearance of comics like Barbarella and Asterix and reprints of the classic Krazy Kat.

I understand that Professor Tolkien bought some of your paintings and that you visited him. Can you recall particulars of this visit?

Nothing very exciting – unknown young artist visits Famous Author, that kind of thing, though the Famous Author behaved amiably enough. I had been introduced by his publisher, Rayner Unwin, to whom I had in turn been introduced by Mr Jacobi of Van Stockum’s bookshop, The Hague, who was the first to exhibit the pictures. I had brought a selection of my paintings as well as some examples of Barbarusian miniatures, and we discussed these and the desirability or un-desirability of illustrations to accompany a text. Mine turned out not to be the first attempts at illustrating The Lord of the Rings, and Tolkien declared himself not in favour of coupling pictures with his texts – not even his own drawings; a point of view which I thought and still think absolutely justified. He did like my pictures, however, and even bought two of them afterwards (to which I added one other as a present). Recently, though, I read in Scull & Hammond’s Tolkien Companion and Guide that among the first five that were sent to him through the publisher there were four he thought ‘attractive as pictures, but bad as illustrations’, as he wrote to Rayner Unwin. One could hardly hope, he complained in this letter, nowadays, to come across a talented artist ‘who could, or would even try to depict the noble and the heroic’. I doubt whether many of my pictures would come up to this standard.

Following my visit to Tolkien the possibility of an exhibition at an Oxford gallery was discussed, but in the end nothing came of it. In 1964, when I was preparing the ‘Taal en Teken’ exhibition, I wrote to Tolkien again, asking questions about his experiences as an inventor of imaginary languages, to which he declined to reply, however, excusing himself on the ground of being ‘much harassed’ by all kinds of business.

Later, some of your paintings were used as covers for the Dutch translation of The Lord of the Rings. When and how did this happen?

This was the Spectrum paperback edition in three volumes, published in 1965. I do not recall exactly how this came about. A couple of years before, I had translated Hans Jantzen’s book ‘Ottonische Kunst’ from the German for Het Spectrum, a commission one of the curators at the Gemeentemuseum had secured for me. So there was already a connection. But I showed my pictures privately to several people at the time, including translator Max Schuchart, and I am not sure whether any of them was instrumental in this business. Incidentally, translating a monograph on Ottonian art and architecture is another instance of my preoccupation with early Medieval painting.

You are best known to Tolkien fans for your illustrations to The Lord of the Rings, but you have also written books, haven’t you?

I certainly have. Apart from Beeldspraak, already mentioned, there is Beeldvertalen (‘Translating Images’) published in 2003, which in many ways continues the lines of thinking developed in its predecessor, expanded into a general introduction to the ‘reading’of visual images. Beeldvertalen is based on my experience as a teacher in various art schools and the universities of Utrecht, Maastricht and Leiden. I have written a ‘catalogue raisonné’ of all works of Mondrian in Dutch public collections, published in 1974, and a history of abstract art for the German publishing firm of DuMont Schauberg, published in 1975, and contributed to many publications on modern art, museum policy, art in public space, and connections between art and science.

Have you produced any other art work besides the Tolkien illustrations?

I have, but I have never tried to make a living from it. That is why I opted for an art teacher’s education in stead of a painter’s. Art schools in the fifties, however, were able to teach you some elements of handling form and colour, but unable to tell you what to do with them in actual practice, because due to the diversity of developments in modern art there was no longer one single ‘true style’ for a young artist to adhere to. Consequently, upon graduating from the Academy in 1956 I was completely at a loss and had a feeling that everything was to be started from scratch. Fortunately, the Barbarusian art ‘project’ enabled me to continue creating visual images by providing a framework borrowed from art history while experimenting with a variety of methods to produce ‘autonomous’ painting. These methods ranged from strict geometrical abstraction to ‘gesture painting’ and various attempts at figuration. These experiments continued when ‘Tolkien’ succeeded Barbarusia. Virtually none of these works survived critical evaluation after 1964, when I finally began to ‘come into my own’ as regards subject matter and ways of handling it. Contemporary developments, in particular the work of R.B. Kitaj, David Hockney and Öyvind Fahlström, proved inspiring, together with a long-standing fascination with the early paintings of Giorgio de Chirico and Max Ernst and – bien étonnés de se trouver ensemble – the work of Kandinsky and Paul Klee. Between 1964 and the early seventies I produced a number of oil paintings and drawings and had three exhibitions, the last one in 1968.

In the meantime, I earned my living by doing museum work, teaching in art schools and writing art criticism. This kept me very much aware of contemporary developments in the arts and brought me into contact with many artists. The sixties witnessed an explosion of exciting new phenomena: English and American pop art, Nouveau Réalisme, Land Art, Arte povera, Conceptual art... which of necessity had to be followed by something like a hangover. I did publicity and educational work for ‘Sonsbeek ‘71’, a manifestation with its centre in Sonsbeek Park, Arnhem, and extensions all over the Netherlands. (Claes Oldenburg’s giant ‘Trowel’ in the Kröller Müller Museum and the ‘Observatory’ of Robert Morris in Flevoland are remnants of ‘Sonsbeek ‘71’.) Naive hopes that this manifestation would bring the glorious breakthrough and general acceptation of the newest art forms were soon disappointed, however. As for me, in my contacts with other artists I could not help noticing how many of them ended up repeating themselves or varying a single theme to the point of complete exhaustion. Besides, particularly since the students’ revolts in Paris in 1968 and their sequels elsewhere, the role of art in our capitalist, consumerist society was being criticized with increasing severity, first by a new generation of Marxists, afterwards from other quarters as well. As an art critic, it was my job to reflect on these developments, and these reflections were bound to affect my thoughts about my own artistic practice as well.

I continued to produce ‘autonomous’ work during the early seventies, but also started on a new ‘project’: a kind of comic strip (except that it was not particularly comic – ‘graphic novel’ is the up-to-date designation) in black and white, combining drawings, collage and text in various manners. This enabled me to get away from the isolated picture which no longer seemed to make sufficient sense to me, while retaining the possibility of producing variations on a single theme or motif. The latter fits naturally in the context of making a book because of the required formal continuity between pages and chapters. The graphic novel format also enabled me to use language as a means of expression alongside with the visual medium. The first attempts date from 1967, when my ideas about content and form were still very vague. From about 1973 onwards virtually all my energy as a visual artist has been invested in this graphic novel – shaping and altering form and content, deleting false starts, learning about relationships between image and text. The book is now finally complete but for a few very small details. Each of the ‘chapters’ is constructed on a different ‘ground plan’; some are all image and no text, others consist of text with images added in the margin or in the manner of illustrations; still others combine them in different proportions. The language is English, but owes a lot to James Joyce’s Finnegans Wake. I will not attempt to give a synopsis, because the book has no plot in any accepted sense – episodes are related, but they succeed one another rather like events in a dream.

One final question, if I may be so bold as to ask about wishes and dreams for the future?

You mean, now that I have reached a ripe old age? I am planning to write at least one other book on matters of art, including its relationship to science. Then perhaps another graphic novel – and finding out whether returning to the easel would not be so bad an idea, after all.
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Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! Fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!


New Tolkien book days are always exciting.
 
Im rereading LOTR and one thing that i never noticed before which I dont think was intentional was how bilbo's book mirrors Tolkien's own experience with the silmarillion. Its his lifes work that hes struggling to finish and at rivendale when Frodo reads it he says something to the extent of "it has great stories but no connecting narrative". And then of course at the end of ROTK his son finishes his book for him
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Im rereading LOTR and one thing that i never noticed before which I dont think was intentional was how bilbo's book mirrors Tolkien's own experience with the silmarillion. Its his lifes work that hes struggling to finish and at rivendale when Frodo reads it he says something to the extent of "it has great stories but no connecting narrative". And then of course at the end of ROTK his son finishes his book for him
An astute observation. Tolkien wasn't averse to self-reference in his Legendarium. Examples of metareference can also be found in his works.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
A giant falls: Tolkien’s tree

Watch the moment two huge branches crashed down and how the Botanic Garden’s much-loved black pine was felled.
When the Botanic Garden’s Pinus nigra was felled in August, there was reaction worldwide. The pine, much-loved by visitors, was known to be a favourite of JRR Tolkien, whose writings memorably celebrate and champion trees. But during more than two centuries the pine had endured many extremes of weather, and on 26 July one visitor captured the moment two colossal branches broke away — graphic evidence of the dangers it now posed. Here Jill Walker, assistant to the director of the Botanic Garden, has combined Mark Bauer’s phone footage with a record of the tree in its full glory and a time-lapse video of its stately dismantlement.
Link
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
On Tolkien and racism by Edmond Dantès

Racism in the works of Tolkien are often discussed. The following is a short examination encompassing just some of my previous writings on this much debated topic:

Tolkien created a world where darkness exerts a gravitational force to which every race and individual is susceptible. What we must do is consider how race works as a literary device for investigating this important issue. Race operates analogously to character types in medieval works. It helped isolate certain characteristics for scrutiny and it also allowed him to play out general predispositions against individual choices, investigating the interplay of determinism and free will (fundamental aspects of the mythos). Of course the idea that racial predispositions can work as literary themes presents interesting problems. Let us examine some of the races. Tolkien wrote that Dwarves reminded him of Jews and he even employed Semitic phonemes in constructing their language. This may be construed as anti-Semitism, but Tolkien explicitly stated that this comparison was rooted in the experience of exile; Jews and Dwarves alike as essentially diasporic, simultaneously at home and foreign. It was a fascination for him, the idea of Dwarves in exile, laboring through an unwelcoming world against which their secrecy is a defense; driven from or attempting to return to ancestral homes. Further, when asked by a German firm in 1938 asking if he was of Aryan origin he wholly dismissed this; “I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine.” – Letter #29.

Elves incite explorations of artistic creativity and the fragility of art in a changing world. The Huorns and Ents speak for nature against the depredations of the other races and are certainly a fitting nemesis for often discussed iron fist of industrialisation. Men are the most variable of Tolkien’s races and through them he investigates weakness, love and mortality. There is no moral polarisation of men in Middle-earth, not only are many Numenoreans corruptible, but in The Two Towers, Sam even doubts the ‘evil’ motives of a slain Haradrim warrior, wondering “what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home.” An adaptation of this line was used in The Two Towers film; spoken by Faramir.

Thus we move onto Orcs (I place all varieties under this word) who expand on the consequences of tyranny. The mass production of hatred and the limiting of individual choice. Orcs are recognisably human and very little do they do that is outside the realm of human behaviour. Their actions throughout the mythos reinforce the Orcs’ kinship with humanity. Orcs are indeed depicted as ‘ugly’, but while their looks can be seen as an external metaphor for an internal condition, these are no more a fantasy characteristic than is Elven beauty. We can see ourselves idealised in the Elves. We see our shadow, the unadmitted, the worst side of human character in the vile but depressingly human behaviour of the Orcs and are thus forced to recognise it. Race is inconsequential, the exploration of the human condition at the fore.

Also of note is a rebuttal to the ‘civilisation against savages’ argument. The Orcs are representative of the industrialists that Tolkien was so wary of and the Children of Iluvatar representative of the Luddite ideal. To give but one example: the Goblins are established in The Hobbit as being capable of creating sophisticated machines far beyond the capabilities of mere savages and that is something on par with what the Numenoreans achieved. The theme of an advanced industrialist civilisation wreaking havoc on the more 'natural' way of life is a dominant theme and one that Tolkien was projecting when creating his mythos.

By refracting these issues through different races, Tolkien like medieval writers and scribes of ancient myth, risked flattening his characters into types; often described by critics as simple stereotypes. It can be equally said that Tolkien’s fascination with racial and cultural difference allowed him to explore the difficulty of understanding across cultural difference and the need for mutual respect. The Lord of the Rings places emphasis on the need for mutual respect and cooperation amongst the various peoples who coexist in Middle-earth and whose diverse cultures are threatened by the mono-cultural dominion of Melkor and Sauron.
 

Loxley

Member
Edmond Dantès;134134949 said:
On Tolkien and racism by Edmond Dantès
*snip*

Excellent read Dantès. That last line in particular is what I always boil it down to when someone brings up the debate about Tolkien "being racist". The whole conceit of The Lord of the Rings is a group of individuals made up of a multitude of races casting aside their differences and banding together to fight a greater force. Along the way discovering that their prejudices of each other were only based on a surface-level understanding of each race.

I mean, there are a number of points within the book where a character will say something along the lines of, "Oh! I thought hobbits/dwarves/men/elves were like this, but their not! How surprising indeed!".
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Excellent read Dantès. That last line in particular is what I always boil it down to when someone brings up the debate about Tolkien "being racist". The whole conceit of The Lord of the Rings is a group of individuals made up of a multitude of races casting aside their differences and banding together to fight a greater force. Along the way discovering that their prejudices of each other were only based on a surface-level understanding of each race.

I mean, there are a number of points within the book where a character will say something along the lines of, "Oh! I thought hobbits/dwarves/men/elves were like this, but their not! How surprising indeed!".
Certainly. Some people are far too quick to write off Tolkien's works as racist in nature, which is most disheartening.

Woot, this beast came in the mail today along with The Silmarillion.

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That is a lovely edition.
 

Red Mage

Member
There's very little about the Fourth Age other than what happens to the members of the Fellowship in the years and decades immediately following the end of the book. Most of this information is in the Appendices, particularly at the end of Appendix B. Tolkien also wrote an epilogue for LOTR, which he ultimately chose not to include, but was eventually published in The History of Middle-earth Volume IX, Sauron Defeated. It's framed as Sam telling his children about the world and gives a bit more insight into the changes that have taken place post-War of the Ring. I found it to be pretty interesting but it does sort of alter the effect of the "Well, I'm back" line being the very last thing we hear from a character.

There's also the sequel he started, but gave up on: "The New Shadow." Although I don't think it's canon.
 

Jacob

Member
There's also the sequel he started, but gave up on: "The New Shadow." Although I don't think it's canon.

Canon is a pretty useless concept when talking about Tolkien's works because of how many contradictory versions there of nearly every story that he didn't publish, and how small a fraction of the total material regarding the legendarium actually was published. IIRC Tolkien made two attempts at writing The New Shadow and didn't get past the first chapter either time. It's a curiosity, and does provide an illustration of his views of what would happen to the Reunited Kingdom after Aragorn, and a tentative exploration of his views on human weakness and decline (which can also be seen in many of his other works), but it can only be called the earliest beginnings of a story.
 
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